Redondilla Workshop

[Writer???]

THE REDONDILLA
INTRODUCTION -

Hello all,
I chose the "Redondilla" to talk about. There are rules, but the only hard and fast ones still followed that I can find is an adherence to an eight syllable line and four line stanza.

I am in no way an expert on this form. As with most foreign languages, I am quite sure someone who is fluent in Spanish could speak far better than I to the subtleties needed in taking one form, created in a specific language, and applying it to the English language. Please consider my efforts no more than an ice breaker in hopes of starting discussion and interest in a particular form.

THE LAY OF THE LAND -

This workshop will attempt to include at least enough; history, explanation of form, modern day attitudes, and examples, to allow and encourage participation and spark discussion.

From the historical information a set of rules will be established, merely for the purposes of this workshop, to keep things on an even keel and hopefully avoid too many off-topic tangents of style and freedom of expression etc. Beyond this workshop of course we are all free to experiment and alter as we desire. These rules of form are simply to keep things flowing in here.

There are posts that follow, concerning the history of the form and it's influence. Modern day attitudes. Philosophical discussion and questions posed. And, a few exercises offered to produce your own one to three stanza poems using this form and the theme or themes offered (to keep things simple for critiquing and discussion) for any interested in participating.

These exercise poems will be critiqued by all who participate based upon the form established, so if you simply can’t forego your freedoms of choice and expression for the purposes of this workshop exercise, expect to hear about it in the critiques.

So let‘s get started and please, join in and read the following posts and let’s have some fun exploring the Redondilla.

[Writer???]

HISTORICALLY -

The Redondilla is of Spanish origin and is a four line poem with eight syllables per line. The proper rhyme scheme of the Redondilla is abba.

Personally, I pronounce it Ray-don-DEE-ya, pardon me for my ignorance if that is incorrect.

One site I looked up stated "Redondilla (Eng. Roundelay)". This may be correct, but can be confusing as there are also French forms called Roundelet, and Rondel, and an English form called Rondel. All of which have their own differences.

A little background from:
www.fullbooks.com/The-History-of-the-Reign-of-Ferdinand-and4.html (http://www.fullbooks.com/The-History-of-the-Reign-of-Ferdinand-and4.html)

"...There is considerable resemblance between the early Spanish ballad and the
British. The latter affords more situations of pathos and deep tenderness,
particularly those of suffering, uncomplaining love, a favorite theme with
old English poets of every description. [10] We do not find, either, in
the ballads of the Peninsula, the wild, romantic adventures of the roving
outlaw, of the Robin Hood genus, which enter so largely into English
minstrelsy. The former [Spanish ballads] are in general of a more sustained and chivalrous character, less gloomy, and although fierce not so ferocious, nor so
decidedly tragical in their aspect, as the latter. The ballads of the Cid,
however, have many points in common with the border poetry; the same free
and cordial manner, the same love of military exploit, relieved by a
certain tone of generous gallantry, and accompanied by a strong expression
of national feeling.

The resemblance between the minstrelsy of the two countries vanishes,
however, as we approach the Moorish ballads. The Moorish wars had always
afforded abundant themes of interest for the Castilian muse; but it was
not till the fall of the capital, that the very fountains of song were
broken up, and those beautiful ballads were produced, which seem like the
echoes of departed glory, lingering round the ruins of Granada.
Incompetent as these pieces may be as historical records, they are
doubtless sufficiently true to manners. [11] They present a most
remarkable combination, of not merely the exterior form, but the noble
spirit of European chivalry, with the gorgeousness and effeminate luxury
of the east. They are brief, seizing single situations of the highest
poetic interest, and striking the eye of the reader with a brilliancy of
execution, so artless in appearance withal as to seem rather the effect of
accident than study. We are transported to the gay seat of Moorish power,
and witness the animating bustle, its pomp and its revelry, prolonged to
the last hour of its existence. The bull-fight of the Vivarrambla, the
graceful tilt of reeds, the amorous knights with their quaint significant
devices, the dark Zegris, or Gomeres, and the royal, self-devoted
Abencerrages, the Moorish maiden radiant at the tourney, the moonlight
serenade, the stolen interview, where the lover gives vent to all the
intoxication of passion in the burning language of Arabian metaphor and
hyperbole, [12]--these, and a thousand similar scenes, are brought before
the eye, by a succession of rapid and animated touches, like the lights
and shadows of a landscape. The light trochaic structure of the
_redondilla_ [13], as the Spanish ballad measure is called, rolling
on its graceful, negligent _asonante_, [14] whose continued repetition
seems by its monotonous melody to prolong the note of feeling originally
struck, is admirably suited by its flexibility to the most varied and
opposite expression; a circumstance which has recommended it as the
ordinary measure of dramatic dialogue.
[13] The _redondilla_ may be considered as the basis of Spanish
versification. It is of great antiquity, and compositions in it are still
extant, as old as the time of the infante Don Manuel, at the close of the
thirteenth century. (See Cancionero General, fol. 207.) The redondilla
admits of great variety; but in the romances it is most frequently found
to consist of eight syllables, the last foot, and some or all of the
preceding, as the case may be, being trochees."

NOTE: For those interested and in need of knowing, a "Trochee" or "Trochaic Foot" is a metrical foot of two syllables the first being long or accented, and the second short, or unaccented, as in FA-ther, SYS-tem, WEL-come, etc.

I encourage you to click on the link for the above article, scroll down to where it says,

"CHAPTER XX.
CASTILIAN LITERATURE.--ROMANCES OF CHIVALRY.--LYRICAL POETRY.-THE DRAMA."

and read the complete chapter. It will give you a fuller sense of the Redondilla as an outlet for national pride, and an undying growth largely from "the people" of the land. I get a feeling it (romance/ballad) was looked upon as a "lower form" of writing, but gained such popularity with the people as to become what one might call the voice of a nation, as well as spread internationally to be adopted and used by other lands who could relate to it's thematic nature of struggle, chivalry, heroism, etc.

Information Gathered from:

http://www.poetryrenewal.com/forms/002/214.shtml

http://pages.prodigy.net/sol.magazine/pl01form.htm#redond

[Writer???]

MODERN DAY ATTITUDES -

The modern Redondilla is often a single stanza, but multiple stanza poems are still to be found. Most of the samples in the link below, you may agree or not, are not very good in my opinion, but then again, neither are my examples. Some are quite good though, so I encourage you to read a many as you can. Most, including one of my examples (in the following post), really ignores the "ballad" nature of the original. There is no folk-lore or legend telling to today's samples. Well, I should qualify that by limiting it to today's "English" samples.

The rhyme scheme of abab is often called a Redondilla, but was actually known as a "Serventesio". Despite the mix-up I think either rhyme scheme has become acceptable if not technically correct, and of course like most ancient forms, the rules today depend largely on who you read and choose to go by, a rhyme scheme of abcb is also considered acceptable by some.

I cannot prove it but I have my suspicions that the Limerick might owe it’s eventual birth to an altered form of the Redondilla. While fairly loose in form a great many Limericks fall into the 8 8 6 6 8 syllable pattern, and many are of legendary or heroic figure even when cast in a bawdy kind of light. The most famous I know, off the top of my head is:

“There once was a hermit named Dave
Who kept a dead whore in his cave
Though he kept her on ice
She just didn't smell nice
But think of the money he saved”

I don’t think I stretch too far to see the roots of a Redondilla here. And, this opinion is somewhat supported by one of the poems in the examples link that speaks to the Redondilla vs. Limerick impression.

It (the Limerick) is short and to the point. It covers a single, simple topic. It references (what has become) a legend :D. And it closely resembles the syllabic pattern. Any syllable and line variations are easily attributable to years of form alterations, the Limerick as stated, is very loose in form now as most poetry is, but it’s not hard to see a 5 line, syllabic, metered, poem, stemming from a 4 line, syllabic, metered poem popular for centuries before the Limerick was created, (1820 is the earliest known, and that was before the name “Limerick” was applied.) And really, is a rhyme pattern of aabba, that different from abba? Drop the first line, make the syllabic changes as such:

“Dave kept a dead whore in his cave.
Though he kept her cool on some ice,
She just did not smell very nice,
But think of the money he saved.”

And viola! A Redondilla.

Many Modern Samples:

http://www.akawordsmith.com/clwpoems/f19.shtml

[Writer???]

LANGUAGE DIFFICULTIES -

There is an assonance in the original Spanish, (usually the final three vowels) that is not found in English, nor is it often possible. Spanish, as other “romantic” languages, make it possible to usually assonate the final two or three vowels, something that would be very difficult in English.

Problems such as this have been and will always be what makes it difficult, in my opinion, to write poetry of a foreign language form in English and retain the many subtleties inherent in the original, much the same as one discovers when writing Haiku in English.

What I mean is, if a form is created in a language that contains many words with “-iello”, “-agio”, or “-entia” etc. type endings, how are poets to accomplish the same quality, when the only door left open to them is repetition of the same word. One might be able to find two vowel rhymes such as gather, blather, slather, gladder, bladder, sadder, etc. but, it becomes extremely difficult when trying for three vowel rhymes. Unless YOU want to spend time trying to find words like, gravitate and navigate, agitate, magistrate, etc. that fit what your trying to express. Now, consider sticking to form and finding rhymes that offer three vowel assonance and fit with trochee meter. I don’t even want to think about it. :D

No. I think it becomes necessary to simply take from the form what we can, and make it our own. I'm not saying it's impossible. I am far too inexperienced to make such claims. I just think it's nigh to impossible to find three vowel ending rhymes that offer a final trochee foot, and gracefully, artfully, retain the thrust of what one is trying to express. We've all experienced having to use a word we really didn't care for or one that just isn't soulful enough. Or, perhaps even gone as far as changing the entire poem for the lack of a perfect word. And, we even revert to a foreign word sometimes to get the “fit” we desire.

My personal opinion is that this is a large part of what led to the unpopularity of rhymed poetry and the great love of free verse and blank verse in the first place. The English language is more precise in some ways, but that benefit comes at a price. While English words may tend to be less obscure than say a Japanese or Chinese character that might have as many as six or seven English equivalents, or a romance language word that might have three or more; it bears with it a limiting of artistic rhyming choice.

Also, I suppose we should consider boredom, laziness, and difficulty with the metrical foot as reason or excuse for “freedom”, alteration of form, and/or complete lack of interest in rigid structures of the past.

Enough navel gazing.

[Writer???]

OK, TIME TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP -

While I have found no definitive proof, the general feeling I get is that the trochaic requirements are not strictly adhered to in modern Redondilla of the English variety. At the most, the requirement is for the final foot of each line to be trochaic, though samples do not show strict adherence to that either. However, a full trochaic line would certainly not be wrong by any means. The samples I found seem to follow nothing but the abba rhyme scheme and the eight syllable requirements.

Now, and please be kind, I offer here are a couple of my examples. Both I feel capture the ballad, or Minstrel quality of the Redondilla. At least I can see them being sung by a Minstrel:

This first one is more in line with what the article noted as the British theme; a more tragic, lost love kind of thing, not generally associated with the original Spanish themes. Still Minstrel in quality, just not legend, heroic, or folklorish in nature.

A Boy’s First Love

She came into my room that night
And lifted me to heights unknown.
With passion borne of longing grown
In wispy dreams of unclear sight.

Then one day came - she said goodbye,
And I was left to weep alone,
As in my heart she tied a stone.
I feel no shame as now I cry.

I dare not wait for her return
Nor hope that she still remember,
How in my soul she stoked the ember
Of love that endlessly will burn.

This song I sing from hearts deep ache
As I yearn for my lover‘s kiss,
Perchance to die in love’s sweet bliss -
Too much to ask my heart to take.

She taught me things no boy should know
And changed my life in many ways.
And as she died so dies the blaze
Within my heart she left to glow.

This second, though humorous, is more in line with the legend themed of the original Spanish. Along the lines of a “Don Quixote-esque” nature.

Hop-Along Catastrophe

The journey long, the trail dusty,
Out west he planned to stake his claim.
Seeking riches and greater fame,
Trouble was, his gun was rusty.

Citified boy could barely ride
The golden steed he sat upon,
As off he ran to west just won -
Got down the block, fell off and died.

[Writer???]

SUMMARY -

So, what do we have?
An original Spanish form requiring four lines of eight syllables with assonant rhyming of the last three syllables, ballad in theme, and used in romantic dialog like that of Cervantes. Well, that is what we had.

We of the English prison have a bastardized 4 line 8 syllable poem, with varying rhyming scheme, no strict adherence to trochaic meter, incorporating any theme or topic one chooses with no thought given to the ballad nature of the original.

A poem that often comes off resembling a Haiku or Limerick (especially in such feeble hands as mine) that is also easy and fun to play with, but because of such ease, often misses or outright ignores the beauty, pride and meaning inherent in the original as well as the Minstrel quality.

[Writer???]

PHILOSOPHICAL DISCUSSION -

I understand and appreciate the freedom needed in the English language to accomplish works in forms of other languages but:

Can or should it still be called a Redondilla?
Does it matter?
Out of respect for the original and the originator, should all variations of form be given a new name?
Is it more respectful to give credit to the original by calling it by the same form name, though the form is altered?
What constitutes form? Is any eight syllable quatrain a Redondilla?
Is any fourteen line poem a Sonnet?
Do the indentations and stanza breaks have anything to do with the form?
Is something still a villanelle as long as the lines repeat?

These are of course philosophical questions a best. Each person will have their own opinions and none of them will govern the future of poetry. My only vague point I guess is that had I been the creator of a form such as the Redondilla, or one of the other foreign language forms, I think I would feel it a slap in the face to view other's attempts that fall so short or change completely what I had originally created, and still have those attempts called by the same name.

If you think of poetry like a pie, then, in the pie family you can have a Redondilla, which, like a rhubarb pie let's say, will always have certain ingredients in certain proportions made in a certain way. Or, you can play with the ingredient amounts or change the actual ingredients and have something that is either a very poor attempt, or something entirely different.

Continuing the pie analogy if you'll bear with me; if you take an original form and change the rhyme scheme, the assonance requirement, ignore the ballad aspect, what you wind up with is more inline with a shepherds pie than a rhubarb, and while having it’s roots perhaps in the pie family, it’s no more a rhubarb pie than yogurt is ice cream.

I thought it would be interesting to discuss the questions above. And of course anything having to do with the Redondilla you might wish to.

[Writer???]

LET'S GET BUSY,
THE FIRST EXERCISE -

Now, for the purposes of this workshop, concerning the requirements of a Redondilla, the form will be:

1. A four line, eight syllable stanza

2. An abba rhyme scheme (for now, we‘ll get to others in sequence)

3. Have a ballad nature to it, (actually the theme will be set in each exercise)

4. Trochaic lines or ending foot will be optional. (but you are encouraged to try)

5. Simple and to the point but be as artful and elegant as you desire.

6. These are story telling poems and as such should be clear and understandable by the masses, not esoteric or mysterious.

The first exercise is to write a poem of at least one, but no more than three stanzas, dealing with any aspect of the legend of Don Quixote. It can be serious, heroic, or humorous in nature but the theme will be something having to do with his legend.

The deadline for posting to this first exercise will be Tuesday, June 26.

On Wednesday the 26th, we will begin critique and discussion of posted poems and then on the following Monday a new exercise will be posted. I think 4 or 5 days should be enough for short poems of a stanza or two. If this proves too difficult adjustments can be made in future exercises.

I’ll go first :D:

Don Quixote

Don Quixote, the legend told,
Was Knight-errant on a great quest.
But really he wasn’t the best
At serving in the ranks of old.

Have you heard of Don Quixote?
Of sound mind, they said he was not.
Delusions he suffered a lot.
Could it have been the peyote?

Who’s next? And please be careful not to let my humor or lack of beauty influence or bring down your level of effort. I expect first rate stuff from you all - I’ve seen your work.

[Writer???]

Oh, just to let you know...

I am all over the forum and other places as well. I will make a point to be online and in the workshop from at least 6PM to 8PM eastern USA time everynight. I'll probably be there more, but those will be definite hours you can count on getting a quick response if needed. Also, feel free to PM me if needed.

Thanks,
Jeff

[poetinahat]

I'm in!

[P.H.Delarran]

I'm in too. I'm on later at night and on weekends, but I'll start reading through all of this now and go from there.

[ddgryphon]

Great groundwork--count me in.

[BBShopMom]

I am in. I've printed all the fantastic info (thanks Writer!!) and will read up and get going!

[Writer???]

I'm here now if anybody should have any questions. If not, just read the material, I know it's a lot to take in.

I look forward to seeing your poems. Remember the dealine is Tuesday and thanks for taking part!

[Pat~]

Thanks for some terrific information, Jeff! I look forward to trying this form (hopefully by Tuesday).

[P.H.Delarran]

Saying so might make me look illiterate here, but I am pretty much unfamiliar with Don Quixote.
Wikipedia has a plot summary, and a translation in it's entirety can be found here. (http://www.online-literature.com/cervantes/don_quixote/)

[Pat~]

Thanks for that link, P.H.! Okay, here's my offering:

MAN OF LA MANCHA

Don Quixote was profoundly
Chivalrous and idealistic;
But with dueling skills simplistic,
White Moon bested him quite soundly.

Did this sway La Mancha's knight, or
Cure him of his vain delusion?
No, it strengthened resolution--
He would be true love's requiter.

[ddgryphon]

Sancho's Song

I, Sancho, with my master ride:
We labor to set right the wrongs
Encountered o'er many furlongs--
--they often my master deride.

They tell me he's probably nuts,
And maybe I've lost it as well.
His honor I feel I must tell,
Though they laugh, that's how the knife cuts.

****************************************

Weak but done.

[Magdalen]

Thanks Writer?? This sounds like fun. I don't think I've quite got the trochee right. I think another attempt is in the offing. Later.

Misguided by knight, Derided by day

So many books a knight once read
Of maidens fair and battles fought,
With steed and squire adventures sought
He, though reason had left his head.

Upon the moors he laid his lance,
Given up to dreams of grandeur
His arms wouldn't goose a gander
To stir, even at close distance.

[Writer???]

I'm liking these! We can go over each one in turn starting tomorrow, that would be Tuesday here in the States in case anyone is already in tomorrow where you are. :D

Remember we're all going to critique so that all can learn. I am going to try and I want all of you to try and point out any flow problems, trochee meter ( is it present or not). Word choice and imagery issues. Could it be more beautiful, deep, picturesque and what would get it that way.

I am assuming this workshop idea is to go a little beyond the normal criting and actually learn and teach each other through scansion and re-writes and discussion etc.

I would like to go beyond the open ended comments we often give and get in the crit section. I for one want to hear details.

"This needs to be tightened up a bit." Well yeah but what do you mean, how would you do it?

If the flow is off what would you change? Word order, different word choice and if so what?

I guess we'll start with mine. I didn't think about or worry about trochee meter so it will be interesting to see how we can tear it up and improve it.

And don't worry, if you want to come right out and say, "Damn Jeff, this really sucks," that's fine. Just be ready to say more than it "needs fixing".

I'll see you all tomorrow and look forward to getting into this! Thank you for your time and particpation.

[P.H.Delarran]

A Giant Legend

There is a knight from legends past
Whose chivalry can’t be denied
Despite the enemies who tried
And doubtful reputation cast

The Giants of La Mancha know
And testify to his acclaim
Proudly without chagrin or shame
The scars from his quick sword they show

[BBShopMom]

I'm not really thrilled with my offering but what the heck. Considering I know nothing about Don Quixote and am but a mere grasshopper poet I am at least happy I was able to come up with something (even if it has no title!). ;)



Quixote read in tales of old
of valiant knights, noble steeds,
chivalry and true love indeed.
He longed to live so brave, so bold.

Away he went with friend and horse,
off to find this life in his dreams.
But dreams had gripped his mind it seems,
Fantasy died, to his remorse.

[poetinahat]

The ending's shoehorned - hard - but it's good exercise. Can't wait to get on with the workshop, Jeff!

Well, here is mine:

Noble, foolish vigilantes
Pledge their causes bold in prayer,
Braving all for Dulcinea:
Heroes borne of Don Cervantes.

Ride, O gangly caballeros!
Glory, gold doubloons, adventure!
Dappled pastures of dementia...
Men-O-War from wooden barrows!

Laughing at their tale is facile,
But acknowledge Don Quixote
for his heart - and Panza! Note he
lived his dream: kings need no castle.

[Writer???]

First, thank you for the link to Don Quixote. It completely slipped my mind to include one. Pardon the oversight please.

Next, let me say I am impressed by your submissions. And after reading them, espescially Rob's, I am ashamed to be offering such drivel or attempting to "lead" those who are so clearly, already way ahead of me. But, I have always said I am no expert, and as long as no one gets the impression I am trying to "teach", but that I am merely organizing, then I am comfortable in continuing this.

Ok, so let's take a look at my Don Quixote disaster.

|Don Qui|xote|, the leg|end told|,
|Was Knight|-errant| on a| great quest|.
|But real|ly he| wasn’t| the best|
|At ser|ving in| the ranks| of old|.

|Have you| heard of| Don Qui|xote|?
|Of sound| mind, they| said he| was not|.
|Delu|sions he| suffered| a lot|.
|Could it| have been| the pey|ote|?

As we can see this poem lacks consistent meter, beauty, and any real meaning. The only thing it has going for it is a little humor that relates to the eccentric or bizarre adventures of the character.

From "Bob's Byway of Poetic Terms":
http://www.poeticbyway.com/gl-t.html

TROCHEE (TROH-kee), TROCHAIC (troh-KAY-ick)
A metrical foot with a long or accented syllable followed by a short or unaccented syllable, as in ON-ly or TO-tal, or the opening line of Poe's "The Raven:"
ONCE up- | ON a | MID-night | DREAR-y, | WHILE I | PON-dered, | WEAK and | WEAR-y,

Sidelight: In English poetry, trochaic verse in long poems is infrequent since it can produce a monotonous effect, but this problem is avoided in short poems such as William Blake's "The Lamb," and "Tyger! Tyger!"

Sidelight: In a trochaic line of verse, the last syllable is often omitted to end the line with an accented syllable. A line thus shortened is termed catalectic.

While there are many trochaic feet within my poem, few if any, fall in the proper sequence. And, it may just be my lack of knowledge, but I can't for the life of me figure out how you could ever use most three syllable words in a trochaic verse. Which brings up something I would like for us to discuss while we're here.

WORD ACCENTING -

I bolded the stresses I felt most people would see as they read this. Without them consulting a dictionary of course. It is my understanding that all one syllable words are unstressed or unaccented, but for poetry are often used as stressed to fulfill the meter rquirements.

If that is true, how words are used isn't always dictionary perfect. Sometimes an unstressed word is used and scanned as a stressed word. I have seen this in examples of scansion of iambic pentameter, and if we consider the word Quixote, we might see what I mean.

Technically it is qui-HO-te, which works fine as a trochee foot if it is led by a stressed syllable and followed by a stressed one as well. But depending on who is reading it or how someone "chooses" to stress it to fulfill form requirements and their desired intent or expression, it could just as easily be QUI-ho-te, or QUI-hoTAY if you really hit the last syllable for dramatic effect.

It would be my guess, that how a word HAS to be stressed was probably one of the first "rules" to be stretched or broken.

I would appreciate your thoughts and knowledge on this.

THE RE-WRITE -

Don Quixote, the legend told,
Was Knight-errant on quest so great.
Sadly rode he to waiting fate
Though mind was weak, his heart was bold.

Have you heard of Don Quixote?
His common sense they thought was strange.
Delusions did his mind derange.
All results of sweet peyote?

I stayed as close to the original (as pathetic as it is) for the purposes of this workshop. Otherwise, I would have changed or scrapped it completely.

To me, this one feels a little more serious. The humor of the last line is there, but now it's a little more subtle and feels perhaps more thought provoking than the first version.

Now, I think you all should critique and post any comments and questions and after any discussion, we'll move on to "Man OF LA MANCHA" by Pat, and just go in order of how they were posted.

MEETING TOGETHER AS A GROUP -

I'll check in here at 8 PM tonight, and just leave this window open till late night, and keep checking back should anyone have a comment.

I'm trying to be as flexible as I can so if any or all can agree on set hours that work for everyone I'm open to a consensus. I not opposed to anything from 6PM to 3, 4, 5, AM eastern standard time.

Just let me know.

[Pat~]

Writer??? I think you're doing a superb job of teaching (ok, organizing) this, and your workshops are going to be a hard act to follow. (Will you teach the next one, too? :D) Thanks for taking this on.

Looks like you've already made substantial headway with your redondilla. I was playing with it some last night, trying for the trochaic meter; I wasn't entirely successful, but this was what I came up with (and I have to say, I think I like your redo better).

(I think some of these lines are what you called 'catalectic')...your original is in black, and (-) means a skipped half-foot.

Don Quixote

Don Quixote, the legend told,
Was Knight-errant on a great quest.
But really he wasn’t the best
At serving in the ranks of old.

Don’ Qui xo’ te, le’ gend told’ (-)
Was’ a knight’ who went’ on quest’ (-)
But’ he wasn’ t quite' the best’ (-)
Serv’ ing in’ the ranks’ of old’ (-).

Have you heard of Don Quixote?
Of sound mind, they said he was not.
Delusions he suffered a lot.
Could it have been the peyote?

Have’ you heard’ of Don’ Qui xo’ te?
They’ said he’ was real’ ly cra’ zy.
His’ de lu’ sions made’ him ha’ zy.
(Might’ have been' too much' pey o’ te?)

[Magdalen]

Thanks writer. I think you're tone and info are welcoming, helpful and progressive. Your Redondilla (I'm only commenting on the rewrite) is a good example of the modern way we wish to express a legend, and I think that is an important aspect of what we're trying to do here, as I understand it, anyway. We're not just trying to make a Redondilla that would have sounded good back then, right? We're 21st century poets, and we shows it. HA. Anyway. I have to run out and do stuff. I'll be back with more comments later. I really like it when you bold the accents. It is helpful. Instead of blabbering my schtick on accents I'm going to go bold my poem. I hope the others will do likewise. Bye for now.

[Writer???]

Sorry, for some reason I lost this post on my computer and had to re-do it. See below.

[Writer???]

OK I'm here for the night if anyone is ready.

Thanks Pat for the compliments and the re-write is great. I like the way yours flows off the tongue.

One question, I know "wasn't" is considered a one syllable contraction but personally I think words like wasn't and doesn't that actually require two sounds, as opposed to say, can't and don't which only require one sound, to me, are accented on the first syllable like WASnt which would make it trochaic.

They seem like "fudge" words. Like they can be one syllable when needed or two syllables, for the purposes of fitting the poets need. Is that the way you all see it? Or am I entirely wrong about this?

[Pat~]

OK I'm here for the night if anyone is ready.

Thanks Pat for the compliments and the re-write is great. I like the way yours flows off the tongue.

One question, I know "wasn't" is considered a one syllable contraction but personally I think words like wasn't and doesn't that actually require two sounds, as opposed to say, can't and don't which only require one sound, to me, are accented on the first syllable like WASnt which would make it trochaic.

They seem like "fudge" words. Like they can be one syllable when needed or two syllables, for the purposes of fitting the poets need. Is that the way you all see it? Or am I entirely wrong about this?

I consider "wasn't" a 2-syllable word with the accent on was. It's trochaic but 'was not' is iambic (we usually emphasize the word 'not' when saying those two together). I think we do sometimes fudge 2 syllables in poetry, and it's easier to get away with if they both are unaccented words that can be slurred together double-time.

[Writer???]

Magalen - Thank you. It's good to see one's efforts taken as intended and appreciated.

As for the poem, yes we want to express our growth and modern "improvements", but we, at least I, still need to do it with meaning, beauty, some kind of depth more than obvious statement of fact or truth. This is what I feel lacked, and still does to some extent, in my poem.

As I said, I am impressed by the other submissions, and I don't think there will be a whole lot to comment on as far as crit goes.

But this I hope is a learning opportunity for all. I think perhaps not a "mastery" of the subject, but an appreciation and an opportunity to find out more about the styles of the Redondilla, the trochaic foot, the flow of words and how grouping can help.

I for one will probably not be concerned with trochaic feet given their difficulty and reputation for "boredom" in longer works. But, it is something we should explore breifly and at least understand.

I like the idea of bolding or pointing out the accents in some way. I think will help us all to see and learn more trochaic words or phrases if nothing else.

One thing I would like all to comment on is my point in the earlier post about word accents. When and how one syllable words can either be accented (stressed) or not.

[Writer???]

Yes Pat, that's what I get from what I've seen.

I wonder if there is some rule about this somewhere. I don't have any books here and I can't remember where I saw it online, but I have seen scansion of iambic where for instance, "He" will be stressed in one example and unstressed in another.

When you're trying to learn, this can be very confusing.

[Magdalen]

Don Quixote, the legend told,
Was Knight-errant on quest so great.
Sadly rode he to waiting fate
Though mind was weak, his heart was bold.

Have you heard of Don Quixote?
His common sense they thought was strange.
Delusions did his mind derange.
All results of sweet peyote?

The biggest problem I have with these lines is that they don't flow very well. Even after practically memorizing it, I stumble in S1. The first 2 lines of S2 flow much better, but "did his mind derange" stops me short again and (maybe a dash instead of . would help that) even though the final line is nice and does flow, the statement/question doesn't work as well as Pat's "Might have been too much peyote!

I'll be brief regarding the accent issue: [From 4th ed Norton Anth. of Eng Lit]
The fact is that perfectly regular metrical verse is easy to write and dull to read.
So I don't worry too much about strict adherence to the scan, I go by what my ear and tongue tell me.
Where's poet, PH & BBSMom?

[Magdalen]

Where is everybody?

[Pat~]

Yes Pat, that's what I get from what I've seen.

I wonder if there is some rule about this somewhere. I don't have any books here and I can't remember where I saw it online, but I have seen scansion of iambic where for instance, "He" will be stressed in one example and unstressed in another.

When you're trying to learn, this can be very confusing.

I think what you're saying is that one-syllable words can either be accented or not, and that can be confusing when trying to write in a certain meter.

He can run the road race. (trochaic)
OR
He cannot run the race. (iambic)
(OR, He cannot' run the race.)

It goes back to "hearing" poetry and hearing the phrase in your head as you write. You have to listen for the accents in your phrase (don't think of it so much as a word or syllable rule)--and rearrange your phrase so that the accents fall where they're supposed to.

[Magdalen]

"Whenever possible, a reader should read a line of poetry slowly and in a normal tone of voice, letting the accents fall naturally. No reader should force a word to be accented that normally would be unstressed ( except and unless as in sprung rhythm, GM Hopkins and he puts the stress accents right in the poem)... Also, it's important to realize that some lines may be read in more than one way" ie, a reader from Mississippi vs a reader from Maine.[ Heath Intro to Poetry]

[Writer???]

Sorry, I keep loosing my provider connection tonight for some reason and you already answered what I asked.

[Writer???]

I have written in iambic with a "whole line" attitude and gotten comments on the stresses being off. Then written with focus on "word syllable accent or stress" and gotten similar comments. It's all very confusing which is why I gave up trying to stick to meter. But I would still like to know which isthe correct and proper way.

[poetinahat]

I'm kind of here, but only in between things. I'll do what I can; it's a full day today. (It's noon as I post this, hence my scattered availability.)

Regarding accents: I just have to remind myself on a regular basis not to force accents where they don't fall. I find that I can make myself see them one way, but that the reader won't necessarily read them the same way. To me, for example, Pat's "He can run the road race" example doesn't read quite trochaically at the end: I put emphasis on both "road" and "race".

Which brings us to the monosyllabic words, as Jeff mentioned. My first thought is that they are generally emphasised, unless they are articles or mid-phrase prepositions. (Prepositions at the start or end of a sentence seem to be emphasised.) But then, the truth lies in the scanning, so memorising a rule doesn't feel very useful to me.

To me, it's no good saying, "well, it scans if you squint just right". Trouble is, by the time I catch it, I've become attached to the rhyme I've built.

That's why this exercise took me much longer than I'd budgeted for.

[Writer???]

Don Quixote, the legend told,
Was Knight-errant on quest so great.
Sadly rode he to waiting fate
Though mind was weak, his heart was bold.

Have you heard of Don Quixote?
His common sense they thought was strange.
Delusions did his mind derange.
All results of sweet peyote?

The biggest problem I have with these lines is that they don't flow very well. Even after practically memorizing it, I stumble in S1. The first 2 lines of S2 flow much better, but "did his mind derange" stops me short again and (maybe a dash instead of . would help that) even though the final line is nice and does flow, the statement/question doesn't work as well as Pat's "Might have been too much peyote!

I'll be brief regarding the accent issue: [From 4th ed Norton Anth. of Eng Lit]
The fact is that perfectly regular metrical verse is easy to write and dull to read.
So I don't worry too much about strict adherence to the scan, I go by what my ear and tongue tell me.
Where's poet, PH & BBSMom?

I agree completely with your comments and I am not just being humble when I say Pat's whole poem is a better read. Were it up to me I would scrap my submission, but I'm going to stick with while we discuss it. unless you feel it's time t move on.

I see what you are both saying about flow ( I knew it didn't flow well when I posted) and your comments on accent are helping, I just need to do some more study and this "interactive discussion, for me, is much better than reading a book. Thank you both.

[Writer???]

I'm kind of here, but only in between things. I'll do what I can; it's a full day today. (It's noon as I post this, hence my scattered availability.)

Regarding accents: I just have to remind myself on a regular basis not to force accents where they don't fall. I find that I can make myself see them one way, but that the reader won't necessarily read them the same way. To me, for example, Pat's "He can run the road race" example doesn't read quite trochaically at the end: I put emphasis on both "road" and "race".

Which brings us to the monosyllabic words, as Jeff mentioned. My first thought is that they are generally emphasised, unless they are articles or mid-phrase prepositions. (Prepositions at the start or end of a sentence seem to be emphasised.) But then, the truth lies in the scanning, so memorising a rule doesn't feel very useful to me.

To me, it's no good saying, "well, it scans if you squint just right". Trouble is, by the time I catch it, I've become attached to the rhyme I've built.

That's why this exercise took me much longer than I'd budgeted for.

Good, good. This is what I'm getting at. It's the unaccented words I have problems with, others I can always check in a dictionary.

What you said about road race could be said for the original line in the poem "great quest" ending. with no hard and fast rule to follow who's to say that's not trochaic though? I mean, I don't really see it that way, but apparently there's no sound argument against it if I say it's trochaic.

[Writer???]

I ran a great race in my life.

I ran a great race in my life

I ran a great race in my life

Which is right and how would anyone argue against what ever the poet says it is?

And I think most readers would actually just read:

I ran a great race in my life.

[Pat~]

Good, good. This is what I'm getting at. It's the unaccented words I have problems with, others I can always check in a dictionary.

What you said about road race could be said for the original line in the poem "great quest" ending. with no hard and fast rule to follow who's to say that's not trochaic though? I mean, I don't really see it that way, but apparently there's no sound argument against it if I say it's trochaic.

I'd say 'great quest' would sound trochaic if you were reading it emphasizing that it was a great (as opposed to not-so-great) quest--so yes, there's no hard and fast rule, there. Just like those 2 sentences I wrote:

He cannot run the race. (iambic)
(OR, He cannot' run the race.)

Same sentence, equally valid ways of scanning it. There are probably even a few more different ways to scan it, depending on how it's read--which is dependent on the phrase's meaning in the poem. For example, I could scan it like this if my poem went on a bit:

He cannot run the race,
But he can walk it.

So you have to look at the poem as a whole, and even understand its meaning in order to scan it 'correctly.'

[Pat~]

I ran a great race in my life.

I ran a great race in my life

I ran a great race in my life

Which is right and how would anyone argue against what ever the poet says it is?

And I think most readers would actually just read:

I ran a great race in my life.

Looking at #1:

I ran a great race in my life...it has too many emphases to make sense (does that make sense, lol?!)

You could emphasize "a" if you were trying to put across the idea that you only ran ONE great race--but then your voice would drop after the "a" and those other words wouldn't receive emphasis.

[Writer???]

"So you have to look at the poem as a whole, and even understand its meaning in order to scan it 'correctly.' "

And write correctly. As I'm learning. This may not mean much to you all,knowing this already, but I am learning. Not just about stresses, but what is meant by freedom and meaning and relationship of words.

That last point is particularly good Pat. The relation of "not run" to "walk" in the next line. It opened my eyes to what I've been trying to get from what people say about "The whole".

Thanks!

[Magdalen]

The poet says whats whats, but risks, as always, being misunderstood.

As regards accentual-syllabic poetry, ie poetry that (often) rhymes, has a definite beat and can move with a clock-like regularity -- from the 14th to 20th century it was predominant, becoming a convention and a tradition. It followed rules as strict as any laws, and the success of a poet has (had) sometimes been measured by the skill with which he can manipulate words within the tightest of circumstances....For centuries the fact that (this type of) poetry sounded artificial bothered hardly anyone. This from the Heath Intro to Poetry, again.

But hey, the artificialness bothers us, right? Damn right!! So I think we can safely say that while our hearts our true and want to adhere to the basic rules of the Redondilla (or what have you) we are entitled to a bit a latitude, each of us to our own desires, but it's a bit of a tightrope walk because purists will probably just call us hacks and the free versers will think us constipated. So.

[poetinahat]

This reminds me of a question posed to my fourth-grade class:

Which word or words would you emphasise in this sentence:

I didn't say you took my red scarf.

I argued that any of these words could be emphasised, to completely different effect.

So, yes, I'd say that emphasis can be situational. The trick, I think, is avoiding phrasing where the awkward emphasis makes the reader seasick.

If the the line stands on its own, does it matter what you name its feet?

[Writer???]

So, would "I ran a great race in my life", be iambic tetrameter? (I realize it's a feeble line but it was the quickest that came to mind)

I see what you mean about too many stresses for the meaning of the line. But, shift those stresses to the ones in line #3 and it gives the da DUM da DUM of the iamb. So, when writing poetry it would seem it depends on ALL the factors ALL the time, like meaning stress, form, etc.

Or

Writing what you feel and flows well, and living with people saying it's not right when they critique it. :D

[Magdalen]

Yeah, good one poet. My tester phrase (in my twisted mind) is
Now I understand.

Now,
I understand.

Now I
understand

Now I under
stand.

Now, I under
stand.

I think there's a few more variations, but at this point somebody usually tells me to sit down and shut up.

Poet, have you any specific comments for writer??

[Pat~]

"So you have to look at the poem as a whole, and even understand its meaning in order to scan it 'correctly.' "

And write correctly. As I'm learning. This may not mean much to you all,knowing this already, but I am learning. Not just about stresses, but what is meant by freedom and meaning and relationship of words.

That last point is particularly good Pat. The relation of "not run" to "walk" in the next line. It opened my eyes to what I've been trying to get from what people say about "The whole".

Thanks!

You're welcome. :) It's funny, I never really thought it all out before...

[Writer???]

Late again. Magdalen nailed it in her post.

And Rob, good points espescially,

"The trick, I think, is avoiding phrasing where the awkward emphasis makes the reader seasick."

[Pat~]

So, would "I ran a great race in my life", be iambic tetrameter? (I realize it's a feeble line but it was the quickest that came to mind)

Actually, I'm having a bit of trouble with that sentence, lol--(what does it mean, exactly?)--can we change it to "I ran ONE great race in my life"??

In that case, I'd read it most naturally like this:

I ran one great' race' in my life. (The ' is a secondary accent, not as strong as the boldface).

So, I wouldn't call it iambic; it starts off trochaic, and then has an identity crisis, I guess. :D

[poetinahat]

Poet, have you any specific comments for writer??
I think you've all covered it pretty well.

Jeff, I looked over your revised version, and it read mostly, but not entirely, as iambic to me.

And I wish you'd quit bashing your own work.

Ah, the word I was trying to remember: to my eyes, "great race" is a spondee (two-syllable foot, both emphasised).

[Pat~]

And I wish you'd quit bashing your own work.



Yes, I think it's time you start bashing mine. :D

[Magdalen]

Don Quixote was profoundly
Chivalrous and idealistic;
But with dueling skills simplistic,
White Moon bested him quite soundly.

Did this sway La Mancha's knight, or
Cure him of his vain delusion?
No, it strengthened resolution--
He would be true love's requiter.

Yea I went and did the accents as I read them, but before we go at it, Pat, do you want to stress anything I've not, or unstress something I have? Note that I did think "true love" was a spondee. Pat?

[Pat~]

Thanks, Magdalen!

That was pretty close to how I thought it'd be accented. When I read it, it read with the accent on just about every other word:

Don Quixote was profoundly
Chivalrous and idealistic;
But with dueling skills simplistic,
White Moon bested him quite soundly.

Did this sway La Mancha's knight, or
Cure him of his vain delusion?
No, it strengthened resolution--
He would be true love's requiter.

One more thing, it was frustrating trying to write this in trochaic, I found. It was all I could do just to figure out something for the meter and rhyme scheme, so I'm afraid this is somewhat lacking in the 'poetry' department. It just reads like a narrative, to me.

[Writer???]

I don't know if that's the nature of a Redondilla Pat, or just trying to do one in English but I agree. It is hard to accomplish and keep a poetic sense to it.

No wonder the trochaic gave way as a requirement huh?

I think yours captures the man very well. I like your word choice, like, "vain delusion" it's revealing and serves such a short piece very well. As many of your phrases do.

As for trochaic... I think we've beat that to death and I call for a consensus:

Can we just forego trochaic requirements and discussion? I'm a traditionalist at heart and generally very nostalgic, and to me honoring someone's creation is very important. But frankly, I'm just not capable at this time to be so strict.

I'm really straining here to find anythng to offer in way of change or advice about your poem, but from a purely personal standpoint I might think about changing S2, L1's Knight, to La Mancha's great man, to tie in with the popularity of "The Man of La Mancha" recognition, and, to make the final rhyme easier. I never see -er as rhyming with or I guess from being "southern". Unless we're careful we tend to over do our -er's anyway, like fer instead of for.

[Magdalen]

:) Well, It's getting kinda late here (sorry about the delay, I went and critted something and it took longer and now I don't think i can give you my best neurons, so I just have two nits and I'll add to whatever's be said tomorrow)

There were just way too many multi-syllabic words here. It's nice to have a meaning, a beat and a rhyme set-up but ...

I wasn't real happy with your cheater rhyme "knight, or" and "requiter". (Hope that doesn't sound too harsh!!! I loved requiter :) I would suggest "err" (as a shorten form or errant?) or "ere" meaning "before" and maybe switching " Cure" to "Curing him of vain delusion"

Oh, as to the actual meaning. I thought that was well done. It made sense, it was a kinda romantic view (appropriately) of him and overall lightly humorous.


Well, I'm gonna go see if I blew Nevadas mind, and then log out. I'll probably jump back in about 2 mins and out. Bye.

[Magdalen]

Yes, writer, I certainly don't have to adress the accents unless they stick out or have some significance.

[Pat~]

Thanks for the crits, you 2. I liked the idea of "curing him of vain delusion" which frees me up to use Jeff's suggestion or another, to get rid of the "knight, or" in S2 L1...

I'll check back here later; it's shut-eye time in Texas. :e2yawn:

[Writer???]

Thanks Rob, but I'm not too proud to admit when something stinks. I just wrote this to have something to include. With all the reading, cutting and pasting and posting and formating I had to do to get ready, I honestly didn't allow enough time to give it my best, so I figured at least we'd have one to tear apart, analyze, build upon and correct without having to worry about feelings. (Shhh, don't tell anyone but, I was trying to show how it should be done and how it should be received)

[Writer???]

Magdalen - I hope that's just a vote in favor of my question and that you didn't think I was addressing that comment towards you specifically. I just meant us all. Mainly because I don't want to beat a dead horse and bore everyone to tears over something I alone am stuggling with.

If anyone wants to comment on meter, trochaic or otherwise please feel free. It doesn't bother me at all as long as everyone is comfortable with it. I think at least one discussion of each aspect on eveyone's poem would be good for us. Repetition breads familiarity. :D

[Writer???]

I was impressed with the muti-syllabic words in Pat's. I tend to get locked into one syllable ruts from time to time and when I read it the first time I said wow, that's pretty good.

Then, by the time I got to Rob's well, let's just say my wife spent a lot of time trying to encourage me to write again.

This is no joke or BS, I am constantly blown away by you all and others here. Even when I write something that's good and receives good crit, I will read someone else's and just be astounded.

Is it safe for me to leave? No one's been back for a half hour or so.
I'll be back later tonight in case anyone drops in for comment. I'm usually up all night, but I have someother work to do elswhere if there's nothing going on in the workshop.

TYhanks to you all for your time, hard work and encouragement.
See you later or tomorrow.

[P.H.Delarran]

Wow, this has been a fascinating read. I've learned a lot, having come here with very little understanding of most of these terms. I'm still vague on some but it's getting more clear.

I come on later at night but I'll try to participate if I can keep from sounding redundant or just plain slow.
If not, I'll at least grunt.

[Writer???]

Hey! I'm still here and checking in most all night so post away, I'll get to it soon if not right away, and redundancy is no problem. Have you written a poem in the Redondilla style, or do you just want to hang out and comment. Either is fine, but if you have a poem go ahead and post it. I'll keep track and make sure we gt to it in turn.

Or, you can do one for exercise two coming when we've gone through these. I'll post the theme later this week, so be ready and please, join in!

[Writer???]

ABOUT REDUNDANCY -

I'd like for us all not to worry about it. Especially here, but in all our crits on the forum as well. The more people who see the same things and comment on them, the more likely the author is to understand that THAT is the way most people are seeing their offering.

All that's required really is honesty, and I would hope, tact. I have no problem saying the same thing someone else does if I really mean it. And I have no problem with someone disagreeing with my opinion if they can show me something I've missed or misinterpreted. All of this helps people learn, helps the poem come to life, and helps make it easier for people to post work AND crit, and should be encouraged in my opinion.

[Writer???]

Actually, I'm having a bit of trouble with that sentence, lol--(what does it mean, exactly?)--can we change it to "I ran ONE great race in my life"??

In that case, I'd read it most naturally like this:

I ran one great' race' in my life. (The ' is a secondary accent, not as strong as the boldface).

So, I wouldn't call it iambic; it starts off trochaic, and then has an identity crisis, I guess. :D

It's a loose Biblical reference to running a good race. But we can move on now. Or we already have ( I get so lost sometimes oh my! :D)

[P.H.Delarran]

Grr, I just lost my post.

Yes, I posted a poem. I was pressed for time and feel it could have used a third stanza to feel complete, and a better title. But it's not my turn :D

Back to Pat's:

MAN OF LA MANCHA

Don Quixote was profoundly
Chivalrous and idealistic;
But with dueling skills simplistic,
White Moon bested him quite soundly.

Did this sway La Mancha's knight, or
Cure him of his vain delusion?
No, it strengthened resolution--
He would be true love's requiter.

I like the use of longer words, which add interest and a little sophistication to such a short piece. I see why there were comments about S2L1 using a 'cheater rhyme', but once I read it outloud, I thought it had the effect of adding flow and feeling less forced, especially with so many longer words.

This makes me wonder what weight we give the visual meter a poem may have compared to the oral meter. If one were to read outloud a tightly metered and rhymed poem, the listener should easily pick out the line breaks and stanza changes even without visual cues. This appeals to me in a way, as I struggle in free verse to place my punctuation and line breaks.

[Writer???]

I too struggle with that. Often I feel a comma is needed at the end of a line when actually the line break should suffice. It just doesn't feel right though.

[Writer???]

Also, and I'm not sure whether your comment indicated a for or against visual meter, but I am for it. First and foremost I write to be read not said. I do read my stuff out loud, but I don't expect it to be once done. So I want it to have all the visual cues it needs to indicate to whoever might read it, EXACTLY how I want them to read it.

I tried a few with no punctuation and I just never got comfortable with that. And the whole no capitalization thing is beyond me. I won't comment or not read a peom because of it, different strokes and all, but I don't write that way.

[Writer???]

"Grr, I just lost my post."

Yeah, must be something in the air tonight. I lost a post twice, and have been diaconnected from my provider, which isn't supposed to happen, tree times tonight.

Aye, the gremlins be announcing curse
On he attempting to speak verse
Best take heed 'fore they do worse

And send you ass to neverland.

It's 3 AM here. I'm checking out till tomorrow. er, today I mean, I think, hell I don't know anymore. bye fer now.

[poetinahat]

Visual meter -- there's even a name for it! That's something that I've notice from time to time and wondered about, but not too hard. But the presentation does matter, doesn't it?

Great post, p.h.

And now, to Pat's verse:

I don't see "true love" as a spondee; I think the spondee is "be true", then "love's re/" is a trochee. But the line reads quite well, and it's a solid landing for a short poem.

"Chivalrous" could make a good dactyl in another context, but it fits in this trochaic pattern here.

The poem scans perfectly to me, and the rhymes are creative; no moon/june/spoon here. (The "fake rhyme" is a favorite, and I give it extra credit points!)

My eyes are tired; I'm going home. I'll see you all tomorrow!

[Pat~]

It really is helpful to get so much feedback--esp. with the differing opinions explained. It helps me 'get into the head' of my reader. One thing on the 'fake rhyme' I forgot to mention--sometimes when a poem is short and verging on 'sing-songy' it's a relief to try for enjambment of some sort, where the phrase continues onto the next line. I think that was a large part of the reason for using it, though it didn't rhyme as well as it might have.

Also, and I'm not sure whether your comment indicated a for or against visual meter, but I am for it. First and foremost I write to be read not said. I do read my stuff out loud, but I don't expect it to be once done. So I want it to have all the visual cues it needs to indicate to whoever might read it, EXACTLY how I want them to read it.

I tried a few with no punctuation and I just never got comfortable with that. And the whole no capitalization thing is beyond me. I won't comment or not read a peom because of it, different strokes and all, but I don't write that way.

It's interesting; I've been reading Frost (thanks, Rob!), and finding I have a real affinity for his work. Something he said at the beginning of the book reminded me of this discussion:

"There are only 3 things, after all, that a poem must reach: the eye, the ear, and what we may call the heart or the mind. It is the most important of all to reach the heart of the reader. And the surest way to reach the heart is through the ear. The visual images thrown up by a poem are important, but it is more important still to choose and arrange words in a sequence so as virtually to control the intonations and pauses of the reader's voice. By the arrangement and choice of words on the part of the poet, the effects of humor, pathos, hysteria, anger, and in fact, all effects, can be indicated or obtained."

"Words exist in the mouth," he would say, "not in books," and he offered a vivid example: if we listen to a conversation going on behind a closed door, and can't hear the exact words, we can follow the rise and fall of the exchange and "understand" it. "A sentence," he said, "is a sound in itself on which other sounds called words may be strung."

Of course, this is just one poet's observation, but I'd have to admit that I'm a very 'auditory' poet, much more so than visual. That probably explains my preference for the forms, with their emphasis on rhythm and rhyme patterns.

Concerning the punctuation at the end of lines--I'd just punctuate them the way I would if it were strung out in a sentence.

I've only written one poem (Critique Group) which had all lower case letters--and that was because the whole poem was about feeling very small and insignificant, and I felt that that visually added to that feeling. I think the way we punctuate or capitalize should not be about us--the author, the author's 'style'--but about the poem. Does it aid the poem in expressing its message? That's the key.

[Magdalen]

[quote=Pat~;1431150]
"Words exist in the mouth," he would say, "not in books," and he offered a vivid example: if we listen to a conversation going on behind a closed door, and can't hear the exact words, we can follow the rise and fall of the exchange and "understand" it. "A sentence," he said, "is a sound in itself on which other sounds called words may be strung."

Thanks for this Pat. I'm in complete agreement as to the "aural" nature of poetry. I like to hope, think, that a truly successful poem of mine absolutely echoes in the head of my reader. If I really like a poem, I'm saying it aloud by the 2nd or 3rd read. But I don't know if that's just a thing we poets do and shouldn't be expected of a casual reader.

Writer! I'm on the fence regarding the visual meter. I like to have a variety of "end-stopped lines" and run-on lines". (Note: in french enjambment means "straddling') and I admit that I play games with the various ways a reader might read the whole. Ideally, my best poems are NOT restricted to one interpretation. I want them to have more than one way of being understood because I up the odds of reaching more minds that way. The bonus is when someone actually realizes that it means BOTH!! But contradictions in meaning annoy many, so I limit my experimentations with that kind of thing.

I punctuate my stuff according to sentence structure for the most part, but sometimes I wave my (poetic) license in the readers face. I think I have a bad attitude towards my potential audience, sometimes.!!!!:tongue

[Writer???]

OK, 7 PM here and so am I. :D

Rob, Pat and Magdalen - excellent points and a lot for me to think about. I think I lean towards trying to control through the visual and punctuation, because I myself get lost so often or do not understand what many poems are about.

Like, "How is this supposed to be read? I'm not getting the meter here." Which of course makes me read it over and over in all it's various ways, which often ruins a poem for me.

OK, so, shall we move on to DD Gryphon's poem? It is next in line. Or is there more to discuss first?

[Writer???]

While I'm waiting, I'd like to touch on what has been said about the "auditory/visual" points.

I too consider myself a very auditory poet. I thin most probably are. But once I, as the author, have gone to all the trouble of working it out to sound right and read well for me, I like to do what I can to make sure the reader DOES IT MY WAY. :D

To me, this would mean things like line indents, monostitch lines, a stand alone couplet in the middle of longer stanzas, etc. As well as punctuation.

Let's use a test line, simiar to Magdalen's (I think it was her's):

I went to the store and got lost.

I -
Went to the store
And got lost.

I Went
To THE store,
and got lost.

I went
To the store
and GOT...

lost.

I think the visual helps make each of these say it's own thing with very different meaning. And it helps the reader see better (I think) what the writer is trying to get across.

[poetinahat]

I'm with you on this point, Jeff. It makes a huge difference to me for text to be presented as it should be read. For this reason, I'm generally not a big fan of centre-justifying poems. And monolithic clumps of text don't help either, unless they're trying to achieve an effect of inundation.

Furthermore, arbitrary indents and splits, without purpose, can well and truly disrupt a poem.

But you make an excellent point about "making the reader do it [your] way". Text arrangement can be very, very helpful. It's something in which I'm still woefully unschooled. This in itself would make a marvelous workshop.

[Perks]

But you make an excellent point about "making the reader do it [your] way". Text arrangement can be very, very helpful. It's something in which I'm still woefully unschooled. This in itself would make a marvelous workshop.
You know who's really good at that? Our own William Haskins. I was going to say that in free verse it's particularly tricky, but then I rethought that - it's tricky all over town.

[Magdalen]

Sancho's Song

I, Sancho, with my master ride:
We labor to set right the wrongs
Encountered o'er many furlongs--
--they often my master deride.

They tell me he's probably nuts,
And maybe I've lost it as well.
His honor I feel I must tell,
Though they laugh, that's how the knife cuts.

[poetinahat]

The meter's not exactly metronomic in this one; in fact, it seems pretty bumpy in the first stanza. But I like the poem's whimsical nature, which I think suits Sancho Panza very well.

The second stanza, I think, sounds very much as though it's Sancho himself speaking, or at least a good caricature: folksy and slightly irreverent. I love the ending.

[Writer???]

Sorry, lost my damn connectionagain. seems like it's every night for ten to twenty minutes.

I was in the middle of a very deep and I'm sure quite profound post too. Darn!

Oh well, on with the show.

For "Sancho's Song"

I thought most of it flowed well. And by the way, when I say that I usually don't jus mean meter. I mean that it reads like a "normal" sentence. Like "natural speak".

This one has a couple of place that obviously don' follow that, but overall it wasn't bad.

That is something I struggled with: getting a natural sounding sentence I mean.

I liked that DD chose to go with Sancho. I had thought about it but...

Anyway, these two lines I would like to see changed:

they often my master deride

His honor I feel I must tell

They don't feel right with the rest of it.

His honor I feel I must tell, is not bad but it lacks any punctuation that might help amke it better and it not as natural as the rest.

they often my master deride, is one of those backward speak sentences that I often right, and it's just out of place in something that reads so well otherwise.

I probably would not have thought this before, but this workshop is serving a purpose. :D

[Magdalen]

Yea, I had my entire crit done and i jumped back to page one and lost it. Oh well, I'll get to my main points. I liked Sancho, too. I don't get why there are two dashes, one after furlongs and one before they. And while I'm on the word they, I pause, wondering if the "they" is the wrongs or the furlongs, After A bit of a dither I decide it could be both and ride on.

I really like the vernacular "he's nuts" and "I've lost it"! They make me like Sancho even more. I too, wasn't crazy about the "His honor" line and I respectfully suggest something like: "These rumors my duty to quell". I do like the closing line and the idiomatic "that's how the knife cuts". I hope I don't sound er, you know, picky, but there are a lot of "theys" undefined and I think that detracts from a more powerful poem.
Overall I liked it though and thought it got the job done, and done well.

[Magdalen]

Gee, that Mag, what is up with her???

[Writer???]

Excellent points Magdalen. You said much better what I was trying to express. I too was going to say something about the "they": perhaps "Men" would be a little better, but it's not quite accurate either. And the only other I can think of would change the syllable count and require further edit.

I think your take on Sancho is right, he was the cool one, the "man behind the man" so to speak.

[Magdalen]

Well, buddy, Guess we'll just have to wait for more comments. I need to go scrape up (Ouch!, Ow, Pow, Watch Out! It's a flying noodle) some repetitive sounds meant to resemble what is being described. Thwack! Smack, Ack! Put that sausage down and back away slowly!!!

[Writer???]

If I might touch on a point from a few posts back about the visual:

I'm sure I'm not telling you all anything you don't already know, but sometimes these are my babies. And like I think a new mother would be, I want the world to see what I birthed the way I see it.

Sometimes I write and don't really care about it. Just for the sake of writing, getting some word down that day.

But when I get an idea or a picture I want to express, I try to use everything I can to make sure you (the reader) get's it the way I pictured it. See the things I see, hear the things I hear.

That's why I use dialect in a lot of my work. I try to get you to south Joisy, where yous might get yer ass kicked, or to come on down to da sto' wit me an' hear ol' Curt on da Dobro.

I guess it's all part of me being a control freak. :D

And the "layout" is as much a part of this as the words, to me anyway.

I may be wrong in my take on it but just for instance:

A line break is the lowest level pause, in time and effect. A comma comes next, implying a more serious pause. A semicolon is much the same as the comma and use when grammar calls for it. A stand alone line, is even more dramatic, and an indented, stand alone line or stanza is the most serious, dramatic, longest, whatever you want to call it, pause. Oh, I forgot the dash, it's right above the comma.

At least that's the way I use them and hope people take them when they read. The differences are subtle, I mean, we're not talking about stopping for 10 or 15 seconds here, but I think that's what also is served by the visual, the sense of dramatics, it says HEY! Look at this! Something is different here and it must be important!

[Magdalen]

Limey Dawg is bored. Shall I fetch him?

Too late, he's gone.

[Writer???]

I must have missed something while I was typing an earlier post.

[Writer???]

All are welcome in here.

[Magdalen]

Punctuation anyone?
The semicolon is a useful supplement to the comma and the period, intermediate in force between the weaker comman and the stronger period. The semi is (should be) used only between elements of equal rank.
Often the choice (amongst the various puncs) is determined by the desired pace. A comma and a conjunc provide the most rapid pace. A semicolon is slower. A period together with a new sentence is slowest of all. From "Handbook For Writers" by Celia Millward
I apply these rules to prose and poetry.

[Magdalen]

Gotta go. The fireworks are ON!!!! Will check back in an hour or so. Thanks again. I'm getting a lot out of this. And don't worry --those onomatopoeias only sting, sizzle, tingle, twang, dang it, for a moment!!!

[Writer???]

Good ref, thanks for posting it. Smack me with a limp poet, I forgot to mention the period. Oh, I feel so ashamed. :D

[Writer???]

I'm checking out for awhile now too. I've got to get some work done on exercise two. Oh yes, I said exercise two. You didn't think you all were getting off easy did you?

Be back later.

[poetinahat]

Jeff, you're a legend. G'night, sir.

Mag, I'm all out of noodles. Be sure to come back tomorrow -- it's wine and cheese night!

I'll be in the background here -- I'll check back if anyone else happens along.

[Writer???]

"PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!

I...
AM THE...
GReat and..

pow...erful
oz.

oh dear..."

[Pat~]

Sorry to check in so late tonight...

Sancho's Song

I, Sancho, with my master ride:
We labor to set right the wrongs
Encountered o'er many furlongs--
--they often my master deride.

They tell me he's probably nuts,
And maybe I've lost it as well.
His honor I feel I must tell,
Though they laugh, that's how the knife cuts.

I also really enjoyed that he wrote this about Sancho; I got a real sense of a personality speaking in this poem. (The second stanza, in particular--the last line was perfect.) I think the second stanza reads very smoothly; the first is a bit less even in meter, and I had a bit of stumble with its last line. The word order doesn't bother me as much; I think it's more the change of subject, and the introduction of the "they" in the end of the first stanza--I think it's better keeping the perspective of "they" all together in the second stanza.

A well-thought out poem here, and I liked the title, too.

[P.H.Delarran]

Whew-made it, just for a few though. Sorry for being so scarce, I'd love to participate a lot more, but it's a really long work week.
Anyway, on to Sancho.

Sancho's Song

I, Sancho, with my master ride:
We labor to set right the wrongs
Encountered o'er many furlongs--
--they often my master deride.

They tell me he's probably nuts,
And maybe I've lost it as well.
His honor I feel I must tell,
Though they laugh, that's how the knife cut

I love the pov here. I think with a little more effort and thought it could add an interesting perspective. I have not read the novel, only a summary. It was suggested that Sancho may have been portrayed as a bit daft, but this poem led my mind into a different possibility. The loyal sidekick who supports his bumbling master has a bit of irony in this story, as he would be the truly chivalrous one, right?
Ok, well I know I'm focusing more on the theme than form with this one, but that's where the romanticism comes in. Since I've read a lot of Dirk's work, I will guess that this was just a quickie written so as to participate. The first stanza is pretty strong and the language fits the setting. But S2 strays and seems more like filler. I'd like to see into Sancho's head a little more.

[Writer???]

Thank you both for checking in. You made some very good points.

I think what we're finding here (not that it's any revaelation to anyone) is that "form" poetry takes time, commitment and education. I think word choice becomes more important in form poetry. There are freedoms in blank verse, free verse, "prose-etry, and prose. You can have a "throw away word here or there without really effecting the poem. But in form poetry each word must fulfill it's obligation to the form. It must fit the meter, serve the cadence, and honor the poem with meaning and some quality of beauty or help enhance the beauty of other words.

Personally I can not yet achieve this on what would be considered a consistant level, but everyday advances the cause. For you all as well I hope.

One last note before I go for the night (morning):

If any of you have a particular "word power" type regime or web sight, or software kind of thing you use or know about, I thought it might be helpful to share that here. I know I could use it and maybe other's could too.

Basically all I do right now is use the dictionary and thesaurus, but a game of some kind or daily web site might make it less boring. I'm reminded today of Kie and his incredible vocabulary and it occured to me this might be something we want to touch on briefly.

Well, it 4:05 AM here on the east coast so, good night, morning or afternoon to all of you and I'll be back here around 6 or 7 PM eastern time tonight, (Thursday).

[Writer???]

Hello,
I'm here for the evening, in and out all night really.

If Rob has time to comment we need his crit for DD's "Sancho" piece. And, If Pat or P.H. had anything else they would like to say, or anybody really, about "Sancho" or any of the subsequent posts. We'll do those before we move on to the next poem inline.

[Writer???]

Oops. I do see Rob's comment above, sorry. So, if anyone has anything else?

[Writer???]

Pretty bad storm here right now. Going to shut down for awhile till it passes.
Be back soon, I hope.

[poetinahat]

I liked that DD chose to go with Sancho. I had thought about it but...
That's Dirk for you... he chooses good alternative angles.

Anyway, these two lines I would like to see changed:

they often my master deride

His honor I feel I must tell

They don't feel right with the rest of it.

His honor I feel I must tell, is not bad but it lacks any punctuation that might help amke it better and it not as natural as the rest.

they often my master deride, is one of those backward speak sentences that I often right, and it's just out of place in something that reads so well otherwise.

I probably would not have thought this before, but this workshop is serving a purpose. :D
I saw these sentences both ways. Yes, they are 'backward'. In a way, though, I thought they sounded appropriate coming from someone whose first language isn't English -- in a caricature sort of way.

Ride out that storm, Jeff; see you later!

[Pat~]

Jeff, you mentioned websites...here's one that offers rhyming words, as well as synonyms, and definitions:

http://rhymezone.com/

[Magdalen]

Hey. Checking in

[Magdalen]

So Is Writer?? over in the UK? I hear it's raining little tiny Tony Blairs over there!!

[Pat~]

I'm guessing he lives in Texas. It's done nothing but rain here for a solid month. The neighbors are building an ark...

[Writer???]

Hi there.
Just a bitty one, only a few lightning bursts.

Thanks Pat for the link, I've used that one before, but other's may need it.

I like what you said Rob about English not being Dirk's first language. I sometimes try to write with a sense of how someone might say things, if English were not their native tongue, but I usually get comments about it not sounding right.

I haven't yet decided whether it's my writing, or their perception of 'how" I should write, being that English is my firtus langage. :D

[Writer???]

I love your guesses. :D

[poetinahat]

I like what you said Rob about English not being Dirk's first language. I sometimes try to write with a sense of how someone might say things, if English were not their native tongue, but I usually get comments about it not sounding right.
Well, Jeff, I'd meant that English wasn't Sancho's first language. But you liked what I said, so let's make it Dirk instead. ;)

[Writer???]

Wow, you live in Texas Pat? Sorry to hear that. Now I mean, I love Texas but it's not a good place to be right now from what I hear.

Are you in a danger area? I heard lots of places are under water.

[Writer???]

Duh! sorry Rob. I'm glad you all can't see my red face right now.

[Pat~]

Thanks, Writer. An area just northwest of us (Gainesville) had severe flooding, and several lives were lost. We're okay--we live on a hill, fortunately, but the ground has just been saturated around here. I've never seen the lakes so high. We'd been on water restrictions for the past several years, so this is a big change.

[P.H.Delarran]

Glad you're dry, Pat! And you too Writer.

Are we on to the next poem?

[Writer???]

Well, I'm glad you're ok.

Now, if we're ready to move on to Magdalen's poem

Misguided by knight, Derided by day

So many books a knight once read
Of maidens fair and battles fought,
With steed and squire adventures sought
He, though reason had left his head.

Upon the moors he laid his lance,
Given up to dreams of grandeur
His arms wouldn't goose a gander
To stir, even at close distance.


Again, I like the feel of this much better than mine. I like the informational aspect of it. "so many book...read", "Steed nad squire adventures", etc. A lot of "his" story for such a brief piece and the restriction applied.

As to nits I might pik, (and this is more to have something to say than any real problem I have with it):

I'm not crazy about the enjambment of S1, L3-4: it throws me off the great flow you had going.
I think it could be a full stop, and then re-write the next line something like:

With steed and squire adventures sought.
All reason fled from aging head.

Now, I like the enjambment of S2, L3-4 and the humor of it. Personally I would like to see a different rhyme word, but that's just the way I say distence instead of distance. I think with the "goosing a gander" phrase, I'd try to go for "dance" as the rhyme.

And no, it's not trochaic but I think we've all expressed our difficulties over that aspect. Maybe when we get to Rob's...

[Magdalen]

What do you mean it's not trochaic?

[Writer???]

Ah, I beat you this time.:D
Usually you all think and type so fast I can't keep up.

[Pat~]

So many books a knight once read
Of maidens fair and battles fought,
With steed and squire adventures sought
He, though reason had left his head.

Upon the moors he laid his lance,
Given up to dreams of grandeur
His arms wouldn't goose a gander
To stir, even at close distance.


I agree with Writer about the enjambment difficulty in S1 L3,4 - I stumbled a bit there. "With steed and squire adventures sought he" didn't come together for me. But apart from the lack of trochaic meter, I thought it was a clever and creative poem, and I like the humorous second stanza. The off-rhyme (lance, distance) didn't bother me as much. Nice job, Magdalen. :)

[Writer???]

I just meant it's not completely trochaic meter. Many parts are and it is closer than I could come and still write coherently. I think, given everything I (we) have read about the redondilla and it's changes over the years, that yours is a good example.

In fact, if any of you have checked out the link to "modern examples" I gave on the first page, I think all of ours are far better than anything at that link.

Over all, I am very proud of our efforts!

[Magdalen]

AW Poets rule!!1

[Writer???]

And we've only just begun...

Mwa ha ha ha haaaa.

Watch out world!

[Magdalen]

Oh! I don't want to beat a dead horse about the trochaics, but I think I can put it as a question and not sound toooo combative: Isn't it okay to wrap the meaning and the meter from line to line? When counting stresses do you start over automatically at the beginning of each line? Oh because it also bears on my crit of A Giant Legend? Which I am, BTW ready with -- wrote over in word.

[Writer???]

Thanks Writer?? This sounds like fun. I don't think I've quite got the trochee right. I think another attempt is in the offing. Later.

Misguided by knight, Derided by day

So many books a knight once read - "So" throws off the beginning
Of maidens fair and battles fought,
With steed and squire adventures sought - This, if you're wrapping, throws off the trochaic meter.
He, though reason had left his head. - "-son had" throws off the trochaic

Upon the moors he laid his lance,
Given up to dreams of grandeur
His arms wouldn't goose a gander -This is not trochaic, either way
To stir, even at close distance.

And no, you're not beating a dead horse. This is about asking questions and discussing what we need and want to ask. My comment the other day was about ME taking up too much time maybe "beating a dead horse" and boring everyone.

Like I said, please feel free to ask and discuss anything about meter, rhyme, cadence, structure, etc. I learn from it all.

[Pat~]

Oh! I don't want to beat a dead horse about the trochaics, but I think I can put it as a question and not sound toooo combative: Isn't it okay to wrap the meaning and the meter from line to line? When counting stresses do you start over automatically at the beginning of each line? Oh because it also bears on my crit of A Giant Legend? Which I am, BTW ready with -- wrote over in word.

As I understand it, whether or not you wrap your line, the stress counts start over at the beginning of the line. So for a trochaic meter, the first syllable of each line should be stressed. Hope that helps!

[Writer???]

And I would say yes, I think you can wrap stresses. At least I have seen scansioned poems that look that way, but I have never seen an explanation of "proper" meter usage.

[Magdalen]

For centuries the fact that (this type of) poetry sounded artificial bothered hardly anyone.

It bothers me alot so I don't like em exactly even. If it is perfectly stress/unstress it usually sounds weird, so that's why I think it is okay to just come close. But I guess I will say I should not call that "trochaic" and just call it near. So I'm done defending the scan. I see PH has left, and I do have a crit ready to post. So what's next?

[Writer???]

Are we ready to move on or not?

[Magdalen]

A Giant Legend

There is a knight from legends past
Whose chivalry can’t be denied
Despite the enemies who tried
And doubtful reputation cast

The Giants of La Mancha know
And testify to his acclaim
Proudly without chagrin or shame
The scars from his quick sword they show


This flowed like absolute honey off my tongue for the first three lines and even to the 4th, but it didn’t sound quite as sure to my ear. Meaning wise. But S2 moves right along,
But your trochaics aren't very even. Anyhow, I never read all of Don Q but I didn’t think he had much of a sword or ever ever really injured anyone? Or did you mean that from Q’s pov? Over all, I thought this was very good. The only line that i think needs a 2nd look
And doubtful reputation cast

[Writer???]

(never mind)

[Pat~]

A Giant Legend

There is a knight from legends past
Whose chivalry can’t be denied
Despite the enemies who tried
And doubtful reputation cast

The Giants of La Mancha know
And testify to his acclaim
Proudly without chagrin or shame
The scars from his quick sword they show

Another great poem. There is a lot of description condensed in a small amount of space. I don't perceive this as having a trochaic meter, and yet it's still a neat little poem. As I recall, weren't the 'giants of La Mancha' the windmills? That would mean he (in effect) didn't really harm anyone. Good rhyme scheme in this.

[Writer???]

I'm like you Magdalen, I never read it all but I never got the sense that he was a great swordsman.

The only line that has a problem flowing smoothly off my tongue is "Proudly without..." It's not bad or anything, it just throws me off the smooth flow to that point and I have to go back for a second read through of that line each time.

Trochaically trochaicly???? anyway, it like all the rest of the poems is off. I know we are being lax with the requirements and it does flow very well to the point I mentioned. But, and I'll just stay with the same reference line, if Proud-ly is used as a trochee, then, with-out throws off the rhythm of the trochee.

[Magdalen]

Well, i edited my comment, becasue I was agruing my case for tros' and looking at her poem and mine while I was doing that. I see that if I'm fudging on my stress/unstress in mine to the tune of 3 or 4 unmatched sets, than this one has even less matched sets and actually has a lot of dactyls stress/un/un so I hope that makes sense to both you and pat and I will be eager to get poet's view on both of these!!!!

[Writer???]

Am I wrong, which is a huge possibility given my recall, but, are (most) of the problems we see with the smooth reading of these, always seem to be where the rhythm is changed from the trochee (or iamb in some cases) to something different.

As bothersome, or boring as they may be, I think we might be honing in on why it's important to stick with one or the other.

But like I said I could be wrong, it's just an off-hand observation. I haven't gone back to read for any proof of my thought.

[Writer???]

Yes it makes sense. Now, if it just made dollars... :D

[Magdalen]

See, here's what's weird. I say With-out, which I went and looked up and the accent should be on the second syll. So when I scan a poem, I may be forcing accents to fit or just plain mispronouncing things. AH!!! I don't think I'll be overhaulin my speech patterns anytime soon!! HA HA You wouldn't not believe (well maybe you might) how many times my family tells me that it's not what I'm saying, It's the way I'm saying it the makes it sound, nice, mean, rude, sweet, etc.

[Magdalen]

It's late here now, so I gotta go. Any final thoughts?

[P.H.Delarran]

Yeah, my trochs are all backwards aren't they? I may never quite 'get' them. I would have liked more time with this but time is not my friend this week. Maybe for the next one ;)
The reference to the scars was meant to be kind of silly, in that those old windmills must have knicks on them from his attempts. I was trying to play along with his delusions. I tried to tie into that with the title, so the reference wouldn't be lost.

[Writer???]

Yeah, I know everybody say things differently. And if a reader or writer uses a word differently than I do and the piece works for them, I can go along with that.

It's just for structutre, construction, etc. when I'm trying to crit something or write something, I go by what the dictionary says if I don't know for sure, so I have a base to stand on for defense of my point of view.

With so much freedom in poetry, and allowing for dialect, accents, cultural differences, etc. it's almost impossible to say anything beyond, "I like it or I don't." Once we actually start giving our reasons we run into the "no rules", "different strokes", "poetic liscense", kind of things.

That's why, for the purposes of this workshop, I wanted to be strict as far as form requirements on at least the first exercise.

I vill gradually give you zeez freedoms bach, if you all be good leetl stuuudentz und behaff yourzelves!"

[Pat~]

The reference to the scars was meant to be kind of silly, in that those old windmills must have knicks on them from his attempts. I was trying to play along with his delusions. I tried to tie into that with the title, so the reference wouldn't be lost.

Oh good! That's what I got from it--I was hoping I interpreted it correctly.

[poetinahat]

Sorry, folks. I'm actually at work, so blocks of time are hard to come by.


Misguided by knight, Derided by day

So many books a knight once read <-- could also be 'So many'
Of maidens fair and battles fought,
With steed and squire adventures sought <-- this is where the 'meter wrap' occurs, yes?
He, though reason had left his head.

Upon the moors he laid his lance,
Given up to dreams of grandeur
His arms wouldn't goose a gander
To stir, even at close distance.


(I'll be back in a few minutes to add my crit; must run!)

Oh! I don't want to beat a dead horse about the trochaics, but I think I can put it as a question and not sound toooo combative: Isn't it okay to wrap the meaning and the meter from line to line? When counting stresses do you start over automatically at the beginning of each line? Oh because it also bears on my crit of A Giant Legend? Which I am, BTW ready with -- wrote over in word.
I know you've already discussed it, but I was always of the belief that meter is, by definition, counted line-by-line.

OTOH, I believe very much in creative rule-bending - once one has demonstrated a firm grasp of the rules. (I am most definitely NOT making any allusions to how well anyone understands them!)

[Writer???]

Yeah, my trochs are all backwards aren't they? I may never quite 'get' them. I would have liked more time with this but time is not my friend this week. Maybe for the next one ;)
The reference to the scars was meant to be kind of silly, in that those old windmills must have knicks on them from his attempts. I was trying to play along with his delusions. I tried to tie into that with the title, so the reference wouldn't be lost.

I think that it was a great idea and a very good effort. I liked it and like I said, for the most part it flowed off my tongue quite well.

I think the "sword" part is what threw me from getting what you were going after. Because he jousted or "tilted" at the wind-mills and I don't associate jousting with sword play.

Of course this could be the product of my not having read all of it and relying on memory and things said by others.

[P.H.Delarran]

I really felt I forced it out and could have done better had I taken the time to choose my words a bit and added another stanza.

So, if a Trochee has the accent on the first syllable, what's it called when the accent is on the second?

[Pat~]

I believe it's called an iamb.

[P.H.Delarran]

So, I wrote a poem with Iambic meter?
Cool.
(sorry teacher :D)

[poetinahat]

Trochee:...DAda -- like "never"
Iamb:.......daDA -- like "today"
Dactyl:.....DAdada -- like "yesterday"
Spondee:..DADA -- like "right now"

I think that's it.

[Writer???]

Does anyone know of a book or a website of nothing but scanned poems. I for one would really like a lot more info on this. My problems seem to be, among others:

A WORD has accented syllable or stress.

A SENTENCE has it's own stress - often regardless of how the word is stressed.

UNSTRESSED WORDS are used as stressed words in a line

RHYTHM is often combined or shorten to half it's normal.

This, and other things, make it hard to try and say for sure what is going on in a poem. Has the author simply used a bending of the rule? Or have they gotten something wrong? Are they trying something new or different? Am I placing the sentence stresses the way they intended? How would I know?

The only rule I can count on is: There are no rules.
The article I read on Poe's creation of "The Raven" (in the link I gave to trochee rhythm), he said that he combined (claiming it was the first time ever I think) octo- and hexa- meter sentences using acatalectic, and catalectic structure.

I think if I was a critic back then, and bold enough to say it, I'd have called him an incompetent loon or something. And say that he'd written a very strange story in a very "jerking or jarring" rhythm.

The long andshort of it is, if "so" is unstressed in the dictionary, what tells me it is stressed in the line. And, how would I know. The rhythm might show me this, but how do I get the rhythm to start if I don't know how words can be stressed and unstressed. Especially when I can no longer rely just on what the dictionary says?

See, this is what comes from trying to learn when you're older and out of school.

KEEP your kids in school and FIGHT to keep all the arts programs alive in your area!

A rhyme is a terrible thing to waste. :D

[Pat~]

Trochee:...DAda -- like "never"
Iamb:.......daDA -- like "today"
Dactyl:.....DAdada -- like "yesterday"
Spondee:..DADA -- like "right now"

I think that's it.

It gets worse. :D There's

anapest: da da DA
pyrrhic: da da
amphimacer: DA da DA
amphibrach: da DA da
tribrach: da da da

[Pat~]

The long andshort of it is, if "so" is unstressed in the dictionary, what tells me it is stressed in the line. And, how would I know. The rhythm might show me this, but how do I get the rhythm to start if I don't know how words can be stressed and unstressed. Especially when I can no longer rely just on what the dictionary says?

I think a lot of it gets back to the meaning of the poem. You read it ascribing meaning to what is written, and the accents come naturally. Individual words of more than two syllables are nearly always accented consistently. Of the rest of the words, ninety percent or so of the time, people will put the accents in the same place, according to the context of the piece. I'd say don't sweat the other 10%.

[Writer???]

Yes, I can see that for the "key" words, that would deal with helping the whole as far as meaning and interpretation. But the "little" words:D that Rob mentioned in his post the other night, like the articles, prepositions, conjucntions etc. don't really serve the meaning or context of a given line, stanza or poem, other than to get us to the next word and that's what throws me sometimes trying to get the rhythm of a piece.

[Pat~]

Yeah, I can see how they might be confusing. But usually those little words (of, and, but, to, the, if, on, etc.) aren't accented, unless needed to be accented for special meaning in the sentence.

[poetinahat]

I'm very, very sorry, folks. I'm not going to get to finish my response. I'll be back when I can -- maybe tomorrow, but I don't know.

[Pat~]

Take care, Poet. Hurry back.

I've got to call it a night, too; see y'all in the morning.

[Writer???]

Just to give an idea of what I do when I crit, and sometimes when I write, I'll read a piece and if I don't pick up the rhythm (the flowing gently or silky off the tongue) then I stop and try to figure out if it's a particular rythmic foot. I will try to read it again in the "sing song fashion of the iamb for example like:

an APple FELL from HIGH aTOP

and if that fits, I continue on in that until it doesn't flow that way anymore. Then I try to figure out why.

Is it loose rhythm, or altered meter? Is it a bending of the rules, or do I have a word stressed differently than the author intended.

I can usually work them out to a point where I get the most of it and then, on the places that don't seem to fit, if writing, I change them if I'm able, if critting, I comment on how "I" saw it and expect to be wrong about 90% of the time.

Well, it's 2 AM here and I think I'm going to check out for awhile. I'll probably be back, I feel so bad that Rob is getting the short end of the deal here as far as timing goes.

Maybe for the next exercise we'll shift the timing to be more in line with the other side of the world. :D

I'll be bach.

(you be motzart :D)

[Magdalen]

Since this topic is just not going away, I'll add a little more of what I think about stresses and unstress -- not implying that I am more or less correct, or "right" in my opinions. The poem style we're discussing should have 8 sylls per line, begin with a stress(and contain 4 trochees) and end unstressed at each line that would be a "perfect" example. None of us spent more than a day on our stuff, and I suspect if we'd had more time we all wouold have worried the stresses to death and gotten them perfect. But I think that the "quick" poems we all came up with are just as valid to explore, because they show the variety that is permissible within the range.We all kept 8 sylls to each line, most of us tried to keep stress/ unstress meters and we all kept to the theme of heroic adventures. But None of us wrote it in Spanish. I think it's cool to see each poet's interpts. On the 1st page, Writer said that the form is meant for Spanish so I thought that making a perfect one would be either hard to do or "unsuccessful" (artificial sounding) right off. I did read through alot of what Writer??? posted, but I am still not clear on whether this type of poem must be accentual, syllabic or accentual-syllabic which would provide the basis for the absolute "law" of what would determine a perfect Redondilla, right? For instance, if I understand it correctly, syllabic style "only" requires that you have the correct amount of syllables and is forgiving on the number of accents, while accentual allows for varying the number of sylls per line, but requires the correct amount of accents per line. And Syll-Acct wants you to meet both requirements. I have a tendency to adjust the rules to fit my needs (I do it alot) so I sometimes end up satisfying NONE of the actual rules in full and ALL of parts of the rule. I hope to hear back from Writer??, Pat, PH, DD & Poet on this, because it seems like this discussion of what rules we Must obey when declaring our work to be a specific type of poem is worthy of all of our opinions. Would a majority believing one way or the other help me mend my wicked ways? Probably not, but who knows. Rep points for all of you, right now, from me!!!

[Pat~]

Hi Magdalen--I got this from the Encyclopedia Brittanica site:

Redondilla:

a Spanish stanza (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9125529/article-9069432/stanza) form consisting of four trochaic lines, usually of eight syllables each, with a rhyme (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9125529/article-9063478/rhyme) scheme of abba. Quatrains in this form with a rhyme scheme of abab, sometimes also called redondillas, are more commonly known as serventesios. Redondillas have been common in Castilian poetry since the 16th century.

Now, to answer your question...if I were going to write a redondilla, I would personally try to write it to fit the definition of the form. Certainly poets have a lot of latitude, and no one's going to jump on you if your redondilla has iambs instead of trochees; but some (poetry judges in a competition, for example) could say that it then is no longer a true redondilla. However, if your redondilla had 10 syllables instead of 8, apparently it could still be classifed a redondilla. The "usually" in the definition gives the poet wiggle room. Definitions serve the purpose of defining what something is as differentiated from something else. And if I were entering a poem in a poetry competition dealing with formal verse, I'd follow the form to a "t."

I've always loved puzzles, so personally I love taking on the challenge of trying to meet the definition. I don't see it as stifling my creativity, only challenging it. But again, if it stifles your creativity, then disregard the form, and do a take off on it instead. Just be aware that some may not regard it as a redondilla, but rather a take off on one.

Does that help?

[Magdalen]

Yep. I agree. If absolutely required I can behave properly. I'm gonna try to play by the rules, strictly, for the 2nd exercise. Hope it doesn't make me tooooo craaaazyyyy!!!

[P.H.Delarran]

I also would prefer to follow the form as dictated if I'm writing specifically to that form. Otherwise, the poem is something else. (Giant Legend was then, something else)
I read some of the modern examples of a Redondilla that Writer?? gave, and many were lax in the trochaic structure. It was annoying. I'm in the camp that feels a form should be honored by sticking to the traditional rules as much as the language allows.
With Haiku, sticking to the strict 5-7-5 form actually deteriorates the quality of the poem in many instances, and since it has been shown that the Japanese syllable structure is different than English and thus the rules have been bent to keep the artistic quality.
I don't tsee that as necessary in something like a redondilla, but I do have a hard time writing Trochees and making them flow.

[Magdalen]

Hey Writer????
With all this spare time, I've managed to come up with a better couple of closing lines, and I'm just wondering if we are going to have a chance to post our revised versions of this 1st exercise, before we go on to the next?

[ddgryphon]

Just a quick note, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully, but things have come up. I appreciate everyone's comments on Sancho's Song. I agree that the meter is a bit bumpy in places and that there is a definite "they" problem.

I was definitely going for Sancho's voice (thank you James Coco) and am glad that came through.

I hope to participate more fully in the next portion.

[P.H.Delarran]

I would love a chance to rewrite for this excercise, but that would take time, especially if we discuss after. ..maybe at the end we can take what we've learned through all this and post a work that showcases it, whether it be a rewrite from one of the excercises, or something new.

[Magdalen]

That sounds cool too!!

Reporting for ditty. Anybody home?

[Magdalen]

Whoops!!
will repost later

[Writer???]

Hello all,

The intent of this workshop was to be a little more strict with the form than we would be in the "outside" world where we are free to explore, bend, and even break rules as we wish.

At the same time I did not want to seem a tyrannical, control freak. So, I thought we would explore the trochee rhythm, with the 8 syllable (tetrameter meter), restrictions as close as each was capable of doing, and then just point out where the work didn't fit exactly. But only in an effort to inform and educate should one choose to do a redondilla, in the correct manner at some future date. I knew I wasn't capable of accomplishing the strict trochee rhythm, I just have too many problems with word stresses still, but I wanted to encourage any who were capable, to stick to form as close as possible. I figured there would be some who wanted to bend the rules no matter what I said about the separation of this workshop from the outside world of freedom. I figured there would be some who weren't comfortable, or maybe bored by strict trochee rhythm. So, I figured we would be "loose" with the requirements, but point out (as best we could) where the piece did not fit the form so eventually, everyone would see what a true redondilla (in English) should really be.

Basically, I thought this would be a staged, or stepped learning experience of three exercises. The first one got off to a quick start with not too much time for creative ponderings, that is my fault. I did not allow enough time for varying schedules and busy lives, and everyone needeing to research and homework.

I think we are doing a wonderful job however. And, the second and third exercises (that's all I have planned) will be at a much slower pace. I just hope the slower pace does not lead to boredom and people losing interest.

It is my intention, as long as people are interested, to keep the schedule as flexible as needed. If even one person wants to discus further, any aspect of the form be it the trochee, the tetrameter requirement, the difficulties of English, the themes involved, etc., any or all can be discussed whenever, as long as you'd like.

Exercise two is going to be fun! I have planned on being lax concerning the trochee and the rhyme scheme to bring us more in line, gradually, with the common, modern day, interpretation of the redondilla.

I believe in honoring the original. Both the creator and the heart of the form. As stated before, I am a very traditional and nostalgic person. To me, the heart of the redondilla is it themes. Form is important and if I was capable I would write a perfect trochee rhythm poem. But the heart and soul of the redondilla is the legend, the historical, the deep and bright, shinning love, the ballad nature it carries, the story telling quality. That, is the redondilla. It doesn't really matter if you use a different foot, say the iamb, to tell of a legend, the heart of your story is THE LEGEND. And the same with love. What does it matter if you use 10 syllables instead of 8, the fact that your telling of a bright and hopeful love, deep and burning is the heart of your story, the real redondilla.

The rules we follow in here are to learn as well as possible the form as originally created and brought to the English language, and to keep everyone basically on the same page so we don't have fifteen different styles and everyone just doing their own thing.

So, bear with me if you will and we will make the best of our time together and make sure that we cover everything that anyone would like to discuss.

[Writer???]

.

[Writer???]

I would love a chance to rewrite for this excercise, but that would take time, especially if we discuss after. ..maybe at the end we can take what we've learned through all this and post a work that showcases it, whether it be a rewrite from one of the excercises, or something new.

Yes, at the end as a last "go 'round" so to speak, I thought we could post re-writes of all 3 poems we will create in the exercises. To keep things organized I'll announce when and how after we finish the last exercise.

[Magdalen]

Sorry about jumping ahead. I didn't know if I'd be able to get back on tonite. Pat & PH and I had quite a nice discussion earlier, and I really wasn't trying to dis you or jump the gun.
BTW I really liked your semi-summation of our progress so far and I think we are achieving the things you set out. And I agree with the early time-crunch theory. Also, I really liked it when you waxed poetic on the themes of the redondilla. So, I gotta go, but I thought I'd check in and get yelled at.

[Writer???]

Ok, if no one has anything else for now, the next poem in line is from BBSMOM:

Quixote read in tales of old
of valiant knights, noble steeds,
chivalry and true love indeed.
He longed to live so brave, so bold.

Away he went with friend and horse,
off to find this life in his dreams.
But dreams had gripped his mind it seems,
Fantasy died, to his remorse.

I liked the story of this one. The focus of beinging dreams that drove and even overtook Quixote.

The rhythm is not trochaic all throughout, but I like the way the story flows with the 8 syllable restrictions. Also I like the she started with the word "Quixote", because it gives me a chance to point out what I was saying about the different ways that word could be stressed. I bolded the dictionary stress of the word, but as to what Pat and other's have said, the whole word of course is a stress word in the line because of its importance to the story.

But also, instead of the proper dictionary stress on "xo", I think the stress more easily falls on "Qui" in this particular usage.

I was torn between "this" and "life" as far as stress in the second stanza. What is more important to the poem, that it is THIS life he is trying to find, or, LIFE beyond mere existance that Quixote is looking for? Sticking with what I felt was the theme of this poem, I chose THIS particular life (Knighthood, chivalry, etc.) as the stress meant here.

Now, having said all of that: the line itself threw me off the flow of the rest. I think it's the "off" and "in" that bother me. I would start the line with "To" and find another word to fill the syllable count, and make "in", "of".

But again, over all I liked it and felt it a much better example than those I've linked to earlier.

[Writer???]

I would not yell at you dearest. All is well in the land of words. :D

I have posted the next poem and my comments. We'll give everyone the night and tomorrow to comment and I'll be back then to read and comment on your posts, if I have any.

So please pop in, everyone, when you can and post your crits and comments and I'll be back tomorrow evening to see where we stand.

It's the weekend and people have lives beyond, so covering BBSMom's and Rob's will probably take till Monday or later, so we'll just relax and take it easy for the weekend and pop in when we have time to read, catch up and comment.

I'm thinking that by Tuesday night, I will post the next exercise.

Keep up the good work everyone!

[Pat~]

Hi all! Before I crit the next poem, let me respond to Writer's post above:

Quixote read in tales of old
of valiant knights, noble steeds,
chivalry and true love indeed.
He longed to live so brave, so bold.

Away he went with friend and horse,
off to find this life in his dreams.
But dreams had gripped his mind it seems,
Fantasy died, to his remorse.

I liked the story of this one. The focus of beinging dreams that drove and even overtook Quixote.

The rhythm is not trochaic all throughout, but I like the way the story flows with the 8 syllable restrictions. Also I like the she started with the word "Quixote", because it gives me a chance to point out what I was saying about the different ways that word could be stressed. I bolded the dictionary stress of the word, but as to what Pat and other's have said, the whole word of course is a stress word in the line because of its importance to the story.

But also, instead of the proper dictionary stress on "xo", I think the stress more easily falls on "Qui" in this particular usage.

I think you misunderstood an earlier post of mine, Writer; sorry for not being more clear. I was talking about single-syllable words (eg. of, and, but, on, the, etc.) and had said that they usually were not stressed unless it was significant to the meaning of the poem. What I meant was NOT that important words in a poem were always stressed, but that sometimes an insignificant word receives a stress when the writer is making a particular point with that word. Example:

"I bought that book in Dallas"

could be scanned instead as

"I bought that book in Dallas" (IF the poem is emphasizing the choice of a certain book)

So in your scansion above, yes, Quixote is an important word in the poem, but the whole word would never be emphasized in a regular speech pattern, Quixote. When one says his name, the three syllables do not all receive the same voice stress or pitch.

Also, IMHO, "Qui" would never be stressed in the word "Quixote." His name is just not pronounced that way. In the Spanish it is always pronounced, Qui-HO-te. So the scansion for that name is always Quixote, regardless of where the word appears in the poem, or who the poem is about.

Does that help?

[Writer???]

Yes, it helps and I did understand what you meant, both. I didn't say it very clearly but I meant close to what you said. I just meant as a stressed word in a line, the reader, or speaker if spoken, might say a word louder or with more emphasis. And as a reader of course we want to know the words that carry the stress of "meaning" for the poem. Basically, I'm just trying to distinguish between all the various ways "stress" is used as terminology in writing and criting, and to make sure we , especially me, understand the differences.

As for the actuall word Quixote, I agree with you of course. It is correctly stressed "XO" but I can see and have myself (when being uber dramatic) said it along the lines of :

KEE - HO TAY, or KEE - ho - TEE, not necessarilly placing the stress where it belongs. Or, in a question type situation as in, "kee XO TAY?", where both the last syllables would contain stress, XO, becaused it's stressed, and TAY because of the inflection of asking a question.

But I do take your point and agree with you.
I appreciate the time and effort you and everyone is giving this. I was so afraid everyone would be bored to tears and this would just fizzle out.

Thanks to all!

[Writer???]

Hello all,
It's 2:30 AM before Sunday sunrise here. I've checked in a few times today to see if anyone had left a crit or question or anything. I'll be checking in tomorrow as well, so don't forget to post your crits of BBSMom's poem whenever they are ready.

I'm here off and on awaiting comments from everyone, I'll be available tomorrow, Sunday, for most of the afternoon on, so jump in when you can.
Enjoy the rest of the weekend!

[Writer???]

Just checking in.

Guess everyone is very busy this weekend.

I will keep checking in in case anyone has anything to post today or tonight.

[poetinahat]

Jeff, you're doing a marvelous job. As is everyone here; I'm glad to be in on this.

I've been with the family all weekend; I hope to be able to check in sometime soon and add something.

[Writer???]

Hey Rob,

Thanks for the compliments and yes, to the others, I think you're all doing great. I have been very pleased as well as educated and encouraged by the participation.

Rob, I am guestimating that I'll be posting your poem for its go around, sometime tommorrow evening my time, after everyone has gone over BBSMom's and we've discussed whatever comes up in the process.

Join us when you can.

[Magdalen]

Quixote read in tales of old
of valiant knights, noble steeds,
chivalry and true love indeed.
He longed to live so brave, so bold.

Away he went with friend and horse,
off to find this life in his dreams.
But dreams had gripped his mind it seems,
Fantasy died, to his remorse.


I liked this one; it adds to the legend and reinforces the notion that the knight was off his nut. It feels a bit uneven to me as I read it again. I stumbled here:
chivalry and true love indeed.
and even though the next line is a good summary statement and is almost completely trochaic, I felt rhythmically, it kinda hung there.

S2 Begins nicely. I disagree with Writer's scan of this line, so I changed the stress to fall on the word "life", but "in & his" don't strike me as needing accents while "dreams" certainly does, so there went the trochee. I'm still not sure if I like or dislike the repetition of dreams in line 3, but I do like the image it conjurs. Having not read the whole story, and not knowing how it actually ends, I am unclear on the Fantasy that died reference. It does make the Redondilla end on a kind of sad note and I do think that is probably accurate. Overall, the piece has a kind of sad and sympathetic tone to it that I enjoyed.:cry:

[Pat~]

Hi y'all. Sorry I couldn't get back sooner. We've been out in East Texas today dropping some kids off at camp. I think we're on the next poem now?

Quixote read in tales of old
of valiant knights, noble steeds,
chivalry and true love indeed.
He longed to live so brave, so bold.

Away he went with friend and horse,
off to find this life in his dreams. this line mostly trochaic
But dreams had gripped his mind it seems,
Fantasy died, to his remorse.

Meter: mostly iambic
Rhyme scheme: good, abba
Comments: Seems very ballad-like, so it's a good match for the redondilla form. I especially like the last 2 lines, with dreams gripping his mind (to the extent that he was befuddled)--and yet fantasy dying in the end. I think the poem captures well the themes of the story. Nice work!

[Writer???]

Quixote read in tales of old
of valiant knights, noble steeds,
chivalry and true love indeed.
He longed to live so brave, so bold.

Away he went with friend and horse,
off to find this life in his dreams.
But dreams had gripped his mind it seems,
Fantasy died, to his remorse.


I liked this one; it adds to the legend and reinforces the notion that the knight was off his nut. It feels a bit uneven to me as I read it again. I stumbled here:
chivalry and true love indeed.
and even though the next line is a good summary statement and is almost completely trochaic, I felt rhythmically, it kinda hung there.

S2 Begins nicely. I disagree with Writer's scan of this line, so I changed the stress to fall on the word "life", but "in & his" don't strike me as needing accents while "dreams" certainly does, so there went the trochee. I'm still not sure if I like or dislike the repetition of dreams in line 3, but I do like the image it conjurs. Having not read the whole story, and not knowing how it actually ends, I am unclear on the Fantasy that died reference. It does make the Redondilla end on a kind of sad note and I do think that is probably accurate. Overall, the piece has a kind of sad and sympathetic tone to it that I enjoyed.:cry:

As a note to the "sadness" aspect, I thought I would re-post from the original page this quote from the Redondilla reference:

"...There is considerable resemblance between the early Spanish ballad and the
British. The latter affords more situations of pathos and deep tenderness,
particularly those of suffering, uncomplaining love, a favorite theme with
old English poets of every description. [10] We do not find, either, in
the ballads of the Peninsula, the wild, romantic adventures of the roving
outlaw, of the Robin Hood genus, which enter so largely into English
minstrelsy. The former [Spanish ballads] are in general of a more sustained and chivalrous character, less gloomy, and although fierce not so ferocious, nor so
decidedly tragical in their aspect, as the latter. The ballads of the Cid,
however, have many points in common with the border poetry; the same free
and cordial manner, the same love of military exploit, relieved by a
certain tone of generous gallantry, and accompanied by a strong expression
of national feeling...

That senese of "nationality" and the "lack" of tragic or mournful themes later vanished after the conquering by the Moors.

As a "world adopted" form, the redndilla has become as useful and open as any other form in poetry, much like the Haiku. Now, any theme or topic is fair game. But traditionally, from what I have read it was not used to convey the sad, or tragic.

I get the impression that they were happy, prideful, hopeful, heroic, funny, etc. ballads used to tell of local and/or national events and historical periods. And perhaps like limericks, to poke fun or point out true natures of local officials and such.

[poetinahat]

Quixote read in tales of old
of valiant knights, noble steeds,
chivalry and true love indeed.
He longed to live so brave, so bold.

Away he went with friend and horse,
off to find this life in his dreams.
But dreams had gripped his mind it seems,
Fantasy died, to his remorse.

==========

This poem is a good summary -- a ballady epitaph, even. The poet's done a good job of keeping the poem within appropriate scope for the redondilla.

The meter feels more iambic than trochaic, which makes the poem read more singsong-y. Otherwise, I agree with Pat, that it fits the spirit of the redondilla, which to me is every bit as important as metric considerations - and perhaps harder to accomplish.

FWIW, I like the repeat of 'dreams' -- which I might not ordinarily. That line, I believe, should end with a period or semicolon.

Well done, BBSM.

[Magdalen]

But traditionally, from what I have read it was not used to convey the sad, or tragic.

Thanks Writer??? for reprinting that section. It was good to review that info. My comment was unclear, however; I was thinking about whether the sad ending to the poem was accurate to the ending of (Cervante's) Don Quioxte's story. Reading it over, I can see where it sounds like a comment on the Redondilla (since I actually used that word) style. So, good to remember that they actually were not usually "sad".

[Writer???]

Thank you all for getting your crits in.

I may be alone in my thnking but I'm gonna stand by my orginal, not that I am saying any of you are wrong, I do see your reasons for stressing "life" over "this", but having read and re-read this, I still see a clear distinction between him going "off to find this LIFE in his dreams (which he didn't do, he literallly went out) to find THIS life of his dreams.

But hey, that's why life is so interesting right. Because of oddballs like me. :D

And I must say again. I am impressed by all of them and how you were all so able to pack so much into such a short work.

We're stil waiting to hear from BBSMom, Dirk, and P.H. I know Dirk isn't feeling well, speedy recovery pal, so I thought I'd wait till tomorrow evening to post Rob's poem.

In the meantime if anyone has anything they would like to discuss, let's have at it.

[Writer???]

One thing I would like to find out:

Being new to all of this, could you all please post or PM me about the length of time you would like for writing lesson two's poem?

It will be different themeatically (is that a word?), but shouldn't be any more difficult than this one was.

I would just like somekind of input before I set the deadline to turn in your homework. :D

[poetinahat]

Jeff, it'll depend a little on whether other research is required.

There's a fine line between finding time to write the poem, and losing momentum. I'd propose two days as a starting point, but I'm flexible. And in any case, everything depends on what else is going on over those two days!

[Pat~]

Ditto what Rob said. Two days sounds about right to me. :)

I'm curious; are we doing another Redondilla, or can we try a new form?

[Magdalen]

Two day is fine, but I'm sure I'll be drunk Weds. nite so you'll have to take what you get if it's due Thursday!!!

[Writer???]

OK, good.

As for additional research, there shouldn't be any. It will be "different" shall we say, but I've included a link to help and the requirements as to form will be the same with some freedoms.

Pat, "...or can we try a new form?"

I'm a little surprised by your question. And worried,(are you getting bored already?)
Yes, it will be another redondilla, each of the three exercises will be. This is the redondilla workshop after all. I really hadn't planned on writing and critiquing anything other than this form.

I may be wrong, well all know that is a very good possibility, but I thought these workshops were specific to a particular form or aspect of poetry and not "general" poetry workshops. I kind of got the impression they were intended to keep things separated into catagories so the threads wouldn't get "co-mingled" informationally, and things would be easier to follow or find when needed.

If things need to change that's fine. It's just that I built, and am still building, my work around that understanding.

I am only planning on three exercises and then a review period.

[P.H.Delarran]

I can write something in two if it starts soon but I'll be' exploding gunpowder and consuming lots of food and spirits Wednesday and then back to my 12 hour days Thurs so that's when my writing time becomes limited.

[Writer???]

OK, I am removing my appology for the "quick" start to this workshop and not allowing enough time.
And 50 lashes with a wet poet to all of you who complained of no time for the first one. :D (just kidding)


I posted the first info and exercise on the 21'st and set a deadline of the 26th. That's four or five days for reading and creating. And now you all say two days????????

I don't think you know what you want, I have obviously spoiled you all, well no more. Mwa ha ha ha (that's my evil laugh by the way. I am very ferocious, watch out. ooh!).

In an effort to give everyone time (the two days you asked for) and allow those who are celebrating the 4th of July to get done in time.

I am posting my crit of Rob's poem now. And, exercise two in a few minutes. as soon as I can format here on the forum.

That gives us all day Monday and Monday night and all day Tuesday, say till mid-night Tuesday, to post your homework.

We may not get to everyone's crit in time before the holiday, i'm sure we won't, but it'll be here for us to get back to after the holiday, or when you have it ready. But please don't forget it. Everyone deserves input for their work!

Good luck!

[Writer???]

Noble, foolish vigilantes
Pledge their causes bold in prayer,
Braving all for Dulcinea:
Heroes borne of Don Cervantes.

Ride, O gangly caballeros!
Glory, gold doubloons, adventure!
Dappled pastures of dementia...
Men-O-War from wooden barrows!

Laughing at their tale is facile,
But acknowledge Don Quixote
for his heart - and Panza! Note he
lived his dream: kings need no castle.

As expected, I was impressed by Rob’s poem. I have accented it the way I read it. It may be different than he intended, but what impressed me was I didn’t have to “stretch” to see the trochaic in this.

Having read “The Raven” and the accompanying article on its creation, I see that some of the lines in Poe’s poem are far less in line with the strict rule of trochee meter than Rob’s, yet he (Poe) considered his entire poem trochaic. (more at the end of the workshop)

I am blown away by the first two stanza. The word choice, the rhyme, the imagery are no less than amazing to me. I envy a talent and vocabulary so rich as to create this.

I liked the shift of the final stanza from that of the “the story” to “our” view of its main character, in that it reminds us how easy it is to laugh at the crazy hero, but asks that we at least acknowledge his heart for adventure and the motives that drove him. And. that we not forget his faithful companion, who, though not suffering from the delusions of his master, nonetheless was by his side, faithful and true. And the end line, it’s so full of meaning. We see him as crazy and delusional, but both literally and figuratively, he was living his dream, and the truth in the final phrase just brings it home.

A king needs no castle, just the right mind. :D (just kidding)

I think Rob must definitely find time to lead a workshop!

[Writer???]

EXERCISE TWO -

OK, everyone ready?
I'll repost the form requirements here for convenience: PLEASE NOTE THE CHANGES.

Now, for the purposes of this workshop, concerning the requirements of a Redondilla, the form will be:
1. A four line, eight syllable stanza (no more than 3 stanzas)
2. An abba rhyme scheme (See addition of other rhyme schemes below)
3. Have a ballad nature to it,
4. Trochaic lines or ending foot will be optional. (but you are encouraged to try)
5. Simple and to the point but be as artful and elegant as you desire.
6. These are story telling poems and as such should be clear and understandable by the masses, not esoteric or mysterious.

CHANGES - We are moving forward in the developmental history of the redondilla. As such the additional rhyme schemes of a b a b and a b c b are here included. As well, the trochee requirement is dropped.

You may still apply it if you feel so inclined, it is never "wrong", it is just no longer required. In keeping with the British "feel" of the redondilla, these poems can be more sad or tragic. More, desperate or "ferocious" in their context, if you can work that into the chosen theme. Nothing of the past, or original is forbidden, more freedom is simply given to the new.

This exercise is focused more on the ballad nature of the redondilla, but brings it forward to a more Victorian, British era. The theme chosen is one of "Revelation" or "Discovery of Truth". Truth is the theme and its discovery or revelation is the context. By this I mean something (either made up or real) that was revealed to each of us at some point in our lives. It could be anything from "the truth" of Santa or the Easter Bunny, to the true nature of a false friend. BUT NOTE!

For this one, we're going to try to make it something that could actually be sung! We're each going to write a song! Well, re-write a song actually.

What I'd like you to do is keep a tune in your head while writing. I've chosen the song, "What child is this". It fits closely the eight syllable requirement, and I'm going to give you as much info as I can to help.

What I'd like us to do here is something a minstrel might sing, and this is the best tune I could come up with that I thought we would all hopefully know and, I found a link for a free MP3 file you can listen to online:

http://www.heavenlyharpist.com/mp3/what-child-is-this.htm

Once you get comfortable with the tune you can simply think of the song and count to yourself 1 2 3 4 da da de da what child is this etc. This is very simplistic, but at least it should help them be more than Gregorian chants


Also, once you're comfortable with the tune, (melody notes), you can see how it will fit with only minor tweaking for our eight syllable requirements. The example is below shows the song laid out in our form requirements:

What child is this, who lays to rest,
On mary's lap, is sle-eep-ing?
Whom angels greet with anthems sweet
While she- eh -pherds wa - ah - tch are keeep-ing?
(these dashes indicate syllable separation. No pauses intended.)

As you can see, minor tweaking is needed with some of the words in the example, but words are often stretched or crammed in song, we will use these freedoms to create a song that fits the tune when sung, but retains the eight syllable requirement when spoken.

You have the choice to drop a note here or there as you need to in order for the melody to fit the line, or, stretch a word by repeating syllables as many songs do.

If you want to actually write it with separation in your multi-syllabic words like some lyric sheets do, that is fine, it will help us all to follow your intent. it would look like the examples given thus far or the one below:

ag-ri-vat-ing lead-er :D
etc.

Also, you can think about how words are stretched in song, like the last line of our example would actually be sung:

While sheh - ehhh - perds waa - aatch are keeee -ping

I will be as clear and explanatory as I can in my offering so you can see what we're after here.

SUMMARY -

A Minstrel ballad

To the tune of "What child is this?"

Having to do with discovery or revelation of a truth

8 syllables per line

4 lines per stanza

3 stanza max

And this time, your choice of rhyme scheme between a b b a, a b a b, or a b c b. Trochee requirements are up to the individual's desire and abilities.

Good luck, and if there are any question please ask.



My submittal

SPOKEN -

The Choice

They placed a book within my hand,
When I was but a little child.
The language made no sense to me,
And all the stories seemed so wild.

I did not grasp till I was grown,
The strength It had to wield,
From first to last the pages showed
The Savior Child, within revealed.

They placed a book within my hands
But all I chased were empty lies
Until at last I found my God
In choice laid bare before my eyes.

And, how it would be sung:

NOTE: This is sung only to the verse music, not the chorus,where the music rises in pitch.

They plaaaaced a booook with - iiiin my haa - aand,
When Iiiii was buu - uut a liiiii - ttle chiiiild.
The laaaang - uage maa - aade no sehhhhnse to mee -ee,
And ahh -all the storr - orrr - ies seeeemed so wiiiild.

I diiiid not graa - aasp till Iiiii was groo - oown,
The strehhhhngth It haa - aad to wiee - ee - eeld,
From firrrrst to laa - aast the paaaages shoo - oowed
The Saa - aa - vior Chii - iild, withiiiin revealed.

They plaaaaaced a boo - ook withiiiin my haa - aands
But aallll I chaa - aased were ehhmp - ty liiiies
Untiiiil at laa - aast I foouund my Go - od
In chooo - iiice laid baa - aare beforrrre my eyyyyyes.

Remember, we're singing this. And like most songs, eight syllables can become nine, or ten, or more very easily when sung:

What chiiiild is thi-is that lays to re-est = 8 syllables spoken - 10 syllables sung.
On Ma-ar-y's la-ap is slee-eep-ing = 8 spoken - 10 sung.

If there are any questions, don't hesitate to ask. I may not have been as clear as needed in my explanation. But if you listen to the tune, limit the poem to eight syllables per line spoken word, and use as many as fits the tune when sung, it should come to you.

Good luck and let’s have fun with this!

The deadline for all those who wanted two days is Tuesday, mid-night. All other's... week and a half.:D

Just kidding, do the best you can, but don't drift away and lose interest, others are counting on you, not just me.

[Pat~]

Writer, forgive my ignorance. I didn't understand the format of how the workshop was going to proceed. I was wondering if we were going to be doing another redondilla or a new form of the redondilla (eg. abab), or a new form altogether. I'm open to doing whatever you had in mind. Hope that clarifies things. :)

[P.H.Delarran]

Noble, foolish vigilantes
Pledge their causes bold in prayer,
Braving all for Dulcinea:
Heroes borne of Don Cervantes.

Ride, O gangly caballeros!
Glory, gold doubloons, adventure!
Dappled pastures of dementia...
Men-O-War from wooden barrows!

Laughing at their tale is facile,
But acknowledge Don Quixote
for his heart - and Panza! Note he
lived his dream: kings need no castle.

I was so jealous when I read this. The immediate impression was of a well polished work. I also felt as if he was familiar with the original rather than just quick research for the sake of this excercise. If that's not case, then I'm even more impressed. He does a great job of pulling the reader in emotionally to the charaters' cause. He nailed the trochees and used language that put me in the setting.
I kinda feel like it starts mid story, but I catch up quickly. Perhaps Lines 1 and 4 in the first stanza could be reversed to give it more of a beginning.
Stanza two is bright and energetic and moving. I forgot that barrows was spelled like that and had to look it up. Somehow I've drifted to saying wheel barrel :D
That's one thing about Rob's work that I like, the vocabulary is just challenging enough to make me feel smart but not so obscure to make me lose interest. I'm reminded that there are many wonderful English words being neglected in my own writing.
I like the message in stanza three but the flow has changed and the mid-sentence punctuation makes it choppy and also moves it to a more modern feel. It does feel a little 'shoe-horned' as he mentioned, and even though it's clever, it disappoints a little after the brilliant story flow of the first two stanzas. But I like the castle line so much that I hope any changes to the stanza would leave that line intact.

[P.H.Delarran]

Excercise two looks like a fun challenge. Suddenly, I want more time :D
I wouldn't have much more time even if it was offerred - unless, could we extend the deadline to Wednesday to give us two full days?

One thing I'm thinking about as I brainstorm for this excercise-you do allow us to drop the trochees in this one if we like, but I want to note that the original lyrics are mostly iambic, and the melody stresses are as well, so it would be awkward to even try for Trochees.

[Writer???]

No problems Pat, and no appologies necessary. It's probably my fault for not spelling out what I had planned. I just didn't want to scare anybody away at the start. :D

The second exercise is up and I'm looking forward to what you all come up with.

We'll work around the holiday as best we can and be patient with everyone's schedule and get through this one and then there is one more exercise of a redondilla (requirements to be specified later, mwa ha ha ha). Then, when critique and discussion is done, we'll move on to review of everything we've learned and discussed as sort of a final go around.

And, unless I'm brought back by my clamoring public, astounded by my amazing abilities, :roll: that's all I have planned.

[Writer???]

Excercise two looks like a fun challenge. Suddenly, I want more time :D
I wouldn't have much more time even if it was offerred - unless, could we extend the deadline to Wednesday to give us two full days?

One thing I'm thinking about as I brainstorm for this excercise-you do allow us to drop the trochees in this one if we like, but I want to note that the original lyrics are mostly iambic, and the melody stresses are as well, so it would be awkward to even try for Trochees.

Take the time you need. We're going to work around eveyone's schedule and the holiday. All I ask is that you not forget or lose interest.

As for the trochee requirements. And please don't take this the wrong way, I am not chastising you or anyone, I merely say this as encouragement for those times in our lives when it becomes important.

Read the instructions for "exercise two", particularly the bolded text, for you answer. Read them all and follow them as you would for any submittal.

I know it's a lot to read sometimes, but take your time and post your work when you can, say at least by thursday.

[Writer???]

Oh, and don't forget to post your critiques of Rob's poem for those who haven't yet. And anything you would like to discuss or questions you have as well.

[P.H.Delarran]

:)
Oh I read the requirements and understand the trochs aren't required. I guess I was starting a little pre-excercise discussion about the meter of the melody, which will influence the work.
I've performed the piece on the violin and know it well and it will be a fun challenge to fit my own redondilla into it.

[Writer???]

Yes, I agree P.H. (sorry I misunderstood your post) it would be awkward for the trochee rhythm. It could of course be forced to work, but it would sound very strange and strained.

[Pat~]

Noble, foolish vigilantes
Pledge their causes bold in prayer,
Braving all for Dulcinea:
Heroes borne of Don Cervantes.

Ride, O gangly caballeros!
Glory, gold doubloons, adventure!
Dappled pastures of dementia...
Men-O-War from wooden barrows!

Laughing at their tale is facile,
But acknowledge Don Quixote
for his heart - and Panza! Note he
lived his dream: kings need no castle.

I always look forward to reading Poet's work, as it's dependably original, rich in vocabulary, and brilliantly executed. This one was no exception! Technically it's perfect in meter (trochaic) and the rhyme is good, also--I loved the clever rhyming of Quixote and "note he" in the last stanza. And the adjectives and nouns he's chosen are not only original (gangly, dubloons, barrows, facile), but offer opportunities for alliteration (gangly, glory, gold) and unpredictable rhyme (facile/castle). This has a wonderful, balladic quality, full of adventure and glory, and the pace of the poem's story was so good, that I didn't even notice on first read that some of the rhyme was 'off-rhyme' (prayer/Dulcinea, adventure/dementia). I liked the reflective sum-up of the third stanza, as well as the last line. I wish I could be more helpful and offer a criticism, but...I have none to offer. This was a terrific poem, and I learned more about the redondilla just by reading and studying it. Well-done, Rob!

[Pat~]

:)
Oh I read the requirements and understand the trochs aren't required. I guess I was starting a little pre-excercise discussion about the meter of the melody, which will influence the work.
I've performed the piece on the violin and know it well and it will be a fun challenge to fit my own redondilla into it.

This post echoes a recurring thought I've had this week about music background and poetry...as we've studied meter and 'hearing' trochaics, it's occured to me how much I feel indebted to my years of piano lessons now that I'm attempting to write poetry. I won't derail this thread by getting into it, but it would be fascinating to find out how many of us in the poetry forum also have a background in music...I'm seeing so many correlations, with rhythm, meter, and developing an 'ear.'

[P.H.Delarran]

but it would be fascinating to find out how many of us in the poetry forum also have a background in music...I'm seeing so many correlations, with rhythm, meter, and developing an 'ear.'
I think you have a good topic for a poll and discussion ;)

[Magdalen]

Noble, foolish vigilantes
Pledge their causes bold in prayer,
Braving all for Dulcinea:
Heroes borne of Don Cervantes.

Ride, O gangly caballeros!
Glory, gold doubloons, adventure!
Dappled pastures of dementia...
Men-O-War from wooden barrows!

Laughing at their tale is facile,
But acknowledge Don Quixote
for his heart - and Panza! Note he
lived his dream: kings need no castle.

I really like the first two S. Perfectly even trochaic meter. Fine WordWork, Don Poetinhat. S2 is practically thrilling to read, breathlessly I followed along. I loved the word choices, cabelleros and doubloons!! The rhyme adventure/dementia is loosey goosey but like the earlier, knight, or/requiter.

But I thought S3 really fell apart. It steps too far back and loses the valiant tone and vibrancy of the first two. It does sum up and conclude but in a rather dry way. I'm betting it's because he ran out of time and just wanted to finish. But the first two stanzas were so enjoyable and well done I will refrain from taking a lance to him.

[Writer???]

Thank you all for getting your crits of Rob's work in. I think you did a great job. He really is a gifted poet and I think we are benefitted much by his participation.

Pat - I suspect that you are right and that a great many poets have a musical background. Even if it is only a more pronounced appreciation than your average person and no real training.

I think it owes to the "artistic" nature, the sensitive soul, the renaissance "call" if you will, in creative people. The musician, the poet, the artist, the writer, etc., they are all kindred spirits I think, and tend to co-mingle or cross-study any number of similar avenues. Even if it's only on the theoretical level as edification.

[Pat~]

Writer???, I had a quick question regarding the 2nd assignment...you said the theme was revelation or discovery. Does it have to be my personal revelation/discovery or can it be a tale about someone else's? No problem either way, I just had an idea for the latter and wasn't sure about the requirement...

[Writer???]

Yes, it's ok. You can write about someone else if you like.

[ddgryphon]

Better late than never (I've heard):


Noble, foolish vigilantes
Pledge their causes bold in prayer,
Braving all for Dulcinea:
Heroes borne of Don Cervantes.

Ride, O gangly caballeros!
Glory, gold doubloons, adventure!
Dappled pastures of dementia...
Men-O-War from wooden barrows!

Laughing at their tale is facile,
But acknowledge Don Quixote
for his heart - and Panza! Note he
lived his dream: kings need no castle.

I'm actually more taken with V2 and V3. V1 doesn't seem to introduce us well and I feel lost in all the references--it left me unsure who we were talking about. V2, on the other hand, is perfect---just perfect.

V3 does a great job of pulling it all together and the ending is a killer (a specialty of Rob's in general). I would look for something to replace the word "Note" in V3 L3. "For" seems more definite than "note" which is the only bump in word choice I get in this piece.

As has already been noted--great work with the Trochee and overall a fine contribution.

To all, sorry, I've been missing, trying to get better.

[Writer???]

Thanks Dirk, for checking in and your time and effort. Your participation is much appreciated, especially in light of how you are feeling.

Take it easy pal, go at your own pace and get well. Get back when you can.

[poetinahat]

Here's my second assignment. I know what problems I think it has; I'll look forward to seeing what you all think of it.

Footsteps crunching over tundra
Fingers curled to warm each other
Desperate eyes peek out from under
frozen scarves for signs of Mother

Bitter storms had been expected
When she left the house that morning
Now alone and unprotected
Kate remembers Mama's warning

Don't go out without me, Katie
Never trust the winter weather
Just be patient, little lady
Wait for me - we'll go together

Christmas toys and eager children
Won't be kept indoors for long
Katie loved her new toboggan
How could Christmas go so wrong?

Wind that stings her face like gravel
Frozen hands and hunching shoulders
No idea which way to travel
Fright sets in as she grows colder

Hollow wails of desperation
Blown away, as good as soundless
Cease at last in resignation
Knowing that she'll soon be Boundless

[Perks]

It's terrific. I know you all will be dissecting form (I am unqualified), but for rhythm and readability and story-telling in verse, it's top notch.

[Pat~]

Okay, I wrote one about myself after all, but it came so quick, I may try for a second one, too; we'll see. This one's not trochaic; I was trying to get it to fit the tune "What Child is This."

This refers to an 'aha' time of spiritual discovery 7 years ago. I was clinically depressed and anorexic, so the poem is true on both spiritual and physical levels.

*Note: When sheep lie down in valleys, they sometimes become 'cast' as they roll and the weight of their fleece (esp. if muddy) strands them on their back. They can't get back on their feet, and can literally starve to death.

Cast Lamb

My Shepherd led, but I was prone
To wander like a lamb astray;
I clambered down a deep ravine
Led by a strident will that day.

Ere long, immobilized, I lay
And cast, could not get on my feet.
But then I felt the touch of One
Who turned me so that I could eat.

Obedience yields its own reward;
When I my will with His exchanged,
I entered into union sweet,
And thus on verdant pastures ranged.

[Writer???]

WOW, Pat. I love it. It sings terrifically. First line, third stanza is off syllabically. Maybe drop "own". Otherwise it's great!

I appreciate the reference on "cast", I would have had to look that one up. But that never keeps me from enjoying a poem, to me that's part of what enriches us through reading them.

I like the spiritual discovery. The metaphore of sheep and shepherd, though standard, works well in this story. The message and personal discovery come through clearly. And like I said, except for S3 - L1, it sings great! Thank yu for your effort, and if you feel like posting another, please do!

[Pat~]

Thanks, Writer! :) (The book "A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23" by Keller explains a lot about cast sheep; I recommend the book highly.)

The third stanza should scan like this (with obedience only sounding 3 syllables):

O BE DYANCE YIELDS ITS OWN RE WARD;
When I my will with His exchanged,
I entered into union sweet,
And thus on verdant pastures ranged.

[Writer???]

Rob, (in my best , cast down eyes, nervous, stammering way, when getting ready to correct one so far ahead of me) Uh...ahem...ah, you went 6 stanza in a 3 stanza limit. The fines are enormous, the penalties severe. No rep point for you today and you have to stay after and clean the classroom. :D

As to the poem itself. I like the story. And, I appreciate once again your ability with the trochee, you make it seem effortless like, "Well the words are there, why don't you all just USE them." I envy your talent and smartification as Dave would say. So, maybe you get some points today anyway.

I'm not sure why, but it's hard to sing, for me anyway. I think it may be the trochee rhythm. But, having heard minstrel songs in movies and such, I know it works.

I like the recurring "F, c" in the first stanza, I thought you were going to continue with that when I started reading, but ya fooled me.

The last stanza is sad and tragically so. The imagery of the whole is heart breaking and sadder still because it is not all that uncommon.

Thanks for your time and effort. Another fine job overall. "I'd give it a 7 Dick. It's got a good beat but it's hard to dance to." :D

[poetinahat]

Jeff, you got it in one. And thanks for shooting from the hip. The mod title doesn't put me ahead of anyone in poetry terms -- believe you me!

I just couldn't find an ending; it took me too long to work around to it. And no, it doesn't 'sing' well at all. I agree: it doesn't suit the assignment. A 7 is a fair-to-generous grade.

It was just that, after staying up until 3:30 to finish it, I couldn't bear to start over. If I can face up to it again, I'll try another one that actually meets the requirements.

I might mention that, when I think of minstrel songs -- or 'Greensleeves' -- I think of iambic meter. But I've not done so much as a Google on the topic, so I have no basis for this assertion.

[Writer???]

Ok Pat, I think I've got what you mean, but putting the "D" in the third is making me not sure.

You mean:

o BEED yance

Right? (please excuse my ignorance.)

Anyway, it's really good. I felt the song quality first time through and now it's just better.

[poetinahat]

Wow. Pat!

'Cast lamb' simile -- perfect. Thematic fit -- perfect. Singability -- marvelous. Lyric quality -- sparkling, as usual.

What a marvelous answer to the assignment!

Even the inverted, poetical syntax - "union sweet", "on verdant pastures ranged" - is appropriate to the theme and assignment.

Beautifully done, milady.

[Pat~]

Ok Pat, I think I've got what you mean, but putting the "D" in the third is making me not sure.

You mean:

o BEED yance

Right? (please excuse my ignorance.)

Anyway, it's really good. I felt the song quality first time through and now it's just better.

Yup--you got it! Now I have to go read Poet's; just noticed he did his already, too!

[Pat~]

Wow. Pat!

'Cast lamb' simile -- perfect. Thematic fit -- perfect. Singability -- marvelous. Lyric quality -- sparkling, as usual.

What a marvelous answer to the assignment!

Even the inverted, poetical syntax - "union sweet", "on verdant pastures ranged" - is appropriate to the theme and assignment.

Beautifully done, milady.

Coming from Sr. Redondilla, those words mean a lot! :D

Now I'm off to read yours--and then with all that inspiration, maybe write another. (Am I allowed to crit yours yet, or should I be waiting?) Writer???

[Writer???]

I need to get this right. I'm not saying you're wrong Rob, but I can never keep them straight. I thought it was:

similie is "like"
metaphor "is"

So to me, in this case the author, Pat, is saying He IS her shepherd, making her his lamb, which would make it metaphor right?

[Writer???]

No, crit away. It's poor rushed effort but I stand with it. (for now)

[Pat~]

One thing I noticed with the assignment...to put the words to What Child is This? demands that it be an iambic rather than trochaic poem. There are accents in that tune on every second half-foot:

What CHILD is THIS who LAID to REST...

It is probably possible to sing a trochaic redondilla as ministrel song, but not to this tune. Would you agree?

[poetinahat]

I need to get this right. I'm not saying you're wrong Rob, but I can never keep them straight. I thought it was:

similie is "like"
metaphor "is"

So to me, in this case the author, Pat, is saying He IS her shepherd, making her his lamb, which would make it metaphor right?
Yes, Jeff, I agree. I was taught that similes use "like" or "as".

Here is the simile I referred to:
My Shepherd led, but I was prone
To wander like a lamb astray;

So, Shepherd is a metaphor, and the lamb is a simile.

I think.

[poetinahat]

One thing I noticed with the assignment...to put the words to What Child is This? demands that it be an iambic rather than trochaic poem. There are accents in that tune on every second half-foot:

What CHILD is THIS who LAID to REST...

It is probably possible to sing a trochaic redondilla as ministrel song, but not to this tune. Would you agree?

I would, Pat!

I might mention that, when I think of minstrel songs -- or 'Greensleeves' -- I think of iambic meter. But I've not done so much as a Google on the topic, so I have no basis for this assertion.

[Pat~]

Footsteps crunching over tundra
Fingers curled to warm each other
Desperate eyes peek out from under
frozen scarves for signs of Mother

Bitter storms had been expected
When she left the house that morning
Now alone and unprotected
Kate remembers Mama's warning

Don't go out without me, Katie
Never trust the winter weather
Just be patient, little lady
Wait for me - we'll go together

Christmas toys and eager children
Won't be kept indoors for long
Katie loved her new toboggan
How could Christmas go so wrong?

Wind that stings her face like gravel
Frozen hands and hunching shoulders
No idea which way to travel
Fright sets in as she grows colder

Hollow wails of desperation
Blown away, as good as soundless
Cease at last in resignation
Knowing that she'll soon be Boundless

This one is decidedly trochaic, and as usual, Poet, your sense of meter is spot on. Your imagery is very strong, and I 'feel' chilly just reading this poem; I can also feel the desperate emotion of the little girl, and the ending is tragic. I almost wasn't prepared for it, though I should have been with 'how could Christmas go so wrong?' You chose a difficult rhyme scheme (abab), so extra points for that! Your rhyming, again, was wonderful. The poem left me feeling sad, which I think was the aim of the minstrel--and I think this one could be sung as well, just not to the tune of "What Child is This?" You'd need a tune with a trochaic meter (Hark the Herald Angels Sing? :) ).

Overall a fine poem, again, Rob; nice job!

[poetinahat]

Okay, Jeff, your turn -- since we're all critting away:

Your poem has a definite balladic sense; it even reads as though it should be sung. You lead by example; well done!

The meter is definitely iambic, and solidly, consistently so. Buttery smooth, even.

I'm not sure what the revelation is - is it simply that God is choice? The characterisation of "lies" is strong, so I'd like to understand what's intended here: just where the truth is found. I'm usually the last to pick up an allusion, though.

Other observations:
- Six syllables - only three feet - in S2 L2
- "It" is capitalised in S2 L2; intentional? The word "book" isn't capped in S1 L1 or S3 L1
- "within my hand" in S1 L1, but "within my hands" in S3 L1. Any reason?

The Choice

They placed a book within my hand,
When I was but a little child.
The language made no sense to me,
And all the stories seemed so wild.

I did not grasp till I was grown,
The strength It had to wield,
From first to last the pages showed
The Savior Child, within revealed.

They placed a book within my hands
But all I chased were empty lies
Until at last I found my God
In choice laid bare before my eyes.

[Writer???]

Are your questions rhetorical as in this is what you don't get or should I really explain it? I'm never sure about that, when going over things. I've heard it's not right to explain your work, but it doesn't bother me to do it. If that's what you meant.

[Pat~]

Writer, I'll go ahead and crit yours, too, while waiting for the other poems.

Originally Posted by Writer??? http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1444050#post1444050)
The Choice

They placed a book within my hand,
When I was but a little child.
The language made no sense to me,
And all the stories seemed so wild.

I did not grasp till I was grown,
The strength It had to wield,____ ____'
From first to last the pages showed
The Savior Child, within revealed.

They placed a book within my hands
But all I chased were empty lies
Until at last I found my God
In choice laid bare before my eyes.


I like the spiritual theme of this, and it reads in a nice balladic style. The iambic meter is steady, except for S2L2, where it seems to be missing the last foot. That line also gave me a little conceptual trouble--and I noticed that you rhymed this stanza abab, whereas the others were abcb. I wonder if you allowed that line to not rhyme with the last, if it would be easier to come up with one that had all 4 feet? You could put a 2-syllable adjective in front of strength, or simply redo the line completely.

Earlier in the poem, and at the end, I'd capitalize Book if capitalizing "It," to be consistent.

At the end, I'm gathering that 'in choice laid bare before your eyes' refers to the opening and reading of the book, and the 'choice' it presented?

A nicely done redondilla, Writer, and very 'singable'--good job!

[poetinahat]

Are your questions rhetorical as in this is what you don't get or should I really explain it? I'm never sure about that, when going over things. I've heard it's not right to explain your work, but it doesn't bother me to do it. If that's what you meant.
Most of them were rhetorical, Jeff. The points I asked about appeared incorrect to me -- if there weren't some reason for them being that way. I ask questions to learn your motivation, rather than presume to know what's incorrect!

In short, I'd love to understand the ending revelation better. Otherwise, all's fine, but thanks!

[P.H.Delarran]

Wow, you all have been busy.
I have company in class with me tonight. A cute little Aussie red.
I shouldn't have read these poems before doing mine-you all have set the bar high on this one.
Looking forward to knit-picking :D

[Writer???]

They placed a book within my hand, "book" un-capitalized was intended to represent the lack of meaning IT held for me.
When I was but a little child.
The language made no sense to me,
And all the stories seemed so wild.

I did not grasp till I was grown,
The strength It had to wield, - "It" capitalized was to imply that now, I saw the sense and truth in It. Now, It meant something. I was just trying to show contrast of before and after. The six syls was simply an error missed in editing and proof. Sorry I rushed it.
From first to last the pages showed
The Savior Child, within revealed.

They placed a book within my hands - "hand and hands" again an error missed in editing and proof. L1 and L2 are a reiteration of S1 in that the "book" held no meaning for me while I was interested "elsewhere".
But all I chased were empty lies - 'lies" is metaphor for the "world" and it's lies of pleasure, wealth, happiness, etc.
Until at last I found my God
In choice laid bare before my eyes. - "the choice" is the discovery found when reading and studying God's Word, once I could understand it and was of a mind and attitude to listen or seek more than the short lived, empty promises of the world.

The revelation is that, Christ is "revealed" from Genesis to Revelation. The entire Bible either foretells, symbolizes through other characters, reveals, or promises, Christ and His message.


RE-WRITE -

They placed a book within my hands
When I was but a little child.
The language made no sense to me
And all the stories seemed so wild.

I did not grasp till I was grown
The strength Its words inside could wield
As first to last the pages showed
The Savior Child within revealed

They placed a book within my hands
But all I chased were empty lies.
Until at last I found my God
In choice laid bare before my eyes.

[poetinahat]

So it was *all* intentional! (except 'hands/hand') Nice nuances.

Thanks for explaining your revelation. Where I went wrong was on the chasing empty lies. I missed that you hadn't actually read The Book with an open mind, or read it at all; that's the key point there. The chasing is what happened instead of reading. I understand now!

Perhaps that's a point that would come out in the singing, via the performer's expression.

Better and better, Jeff.

[Pat~]

And for once I'm glad I 'got' it--that was the meaning I read into it; I just wanted to be sure I'd interpreted it correctly. Thanks for the explanation, Jeff. I understand your use of capitals now, too. I still didn't quite catch the second line in stanza 2--what was it supposed to have been to make 8 syllables?

[Magdalen]

A wild and trusting fool was I,
In younger days, so quick to love,
Beneath a moonlit summer sky
A future bright as stars above.

A pledge we made forever true,
Was broken by the summer’s end.
A full year passed, my heart still blue,
Despair and loss my only friend.

October’s golden leaves fell down
Upon a gentled, wiser me.
Beneath a Harvest Moon I found
A love to last eternity.

Hi guys & gals!! There's two pages of posting I've read through once quick. Will post comments and such soon. Lots of lovely words to wade through. Happy 4th to all.

[Writer???]

Magdalen, Thanks for getting your poem in.

It's really good. It flows, as a story from beginning to end. It flows rhythmically as well. It sings!

It's never been a problem of mine, I love cliches and sentimentallity, but in all honesty I can see others having a problem with some of it for those reasons.

I love the "Harvest moon line". It puts me in mind of the song "Moonlight in Vermont" in a movie scene I saw. The last stanza is just great in my book, my favorite out of a very good piece.

So far I think you've all done an excellent job. I was worried that this exercise wouldn't go over too well. Thank you all for your attitudes and your efforts! I await your other attempts should be so inclined and have the time.

[Writer???]

Pat - the second line wasn't ever anything to make it 8 syls after the initial changes. The line was originally:
The strength inside that It revealed

But then the last line fell into place and I wanted to use "revealed" there instead.

The strength It had to wield was a quick filler that I simply forgot to go back and fix in my rush.

Well, not so much rush but scatterbrained. Jumping back to make sure the rest was clear enough, then coming back to the poem, then going back to the text, etc. I just overlooked it.

I think it works as:
"The strength Its words inside could wield,
As first to last..."

See re-write in above post.

[P.H.Delarran]

Oh darnit, I'm just not going to finish anything tonight. I have maybe two lines :Shrug:
See you all tomorrow.

[poetinahat]

A wild and trusting fool was I,
In younger days, so quick to love,
Beneath a moonlit summer sky
A future bright as stars above.

A pledge we made forever true,
Was broken by the summer’s end.
A full year passed, my heart still blue,
Despair and loss my only friend.

October’s golden leaves fell down
Upon a gentled, wiser me.
Beneath a Harvest Moon I found
A love to last eternity.


Sensational, Mag. This is a ballad. The third stanza is a wonder. I love the word "gentled".

The iambic meter is superb. I can nitpick only with the comma at the end of S2 L1, and in S2 L4, that despair and loss would be more than one friend. The language is florid -- starting with the opening line -- but that's how I picture a ballad. This poem works splendidly; it tells a complete story, in stages, neatly and completely. You got the level of detail exactly right.

So far, I'm running a distant last in terms of balladic expression; extra work for me! But it's no disgrace. All of your poems are better than fine.

[P.H.Delarran]

It's coming in spurts-amidst cooking and cleaning and playing.
I'm a little past half way with 2.5 stanzas in their first draft and the ending in my head-ish. This thing really wants to be 4-5 stanzas, or four with a chorus. hmmm.

But feel free to move on without me..I'll try to come in this afternoon and offer some feedback to the four fantastic poems already posted.
Ok, off to sniff sunflowers ...., errr, ummm, I mean snip hydrangeas.

[Writer???]

Note To All

Apparently the problem I've been having with my computer is my modem is going bad. Only working intermittently.

I will be in and out as I am able. Don't worry, fearless leader has not deserted you. I shall return!

Seriously, all should be well by Friday after the repair tech comes.

Keep up the great work!

Talk amongst yourselves and keep the noise to a minimum. :D

[Magdalen]

They placed a book within my hands
When I was but a little child.
The language made no sense to me
And all the stories seemed so wild.

I did not grasp till I was grown
The strength Its words inside could wield
As first to last the pages showed
The Savior Child within revealed

They placed a book within my hands
But all I chased were empty lies.
Until at last I found my God
In choice laid bare before my eyes.



I’m doing the crit including the minor revs. I have the song playing while I’m reading and it matches and moves along perfectly. Since a ballad is “any light, simple song, esp. one of sentimental or romantic character, having two or more stanzas all sung to the same melody”, I think the subject matter is a little heavy for a ballad, but it definitely meets the revelation/truth requirement so I won’t pick.

I did kinda read over the discussion about capitalization and I have to say I think that visually a capital “B” on book would be an additional clue that you mean The Bible, but it really isn’t necessary, since we are focusing on this being sung. The idea that you didn't cap to indicate disrespect didn't dawn on me until I read the red.

I think I “get” what the revelation was – that the Savior Child is revealed within the pages from “first to last” and that you finally came to terms with that. But I think I could be knocked over the head a little more with some indication as to how you came to that. I guess that is implied in the line “choice laid bare before my eyes” that is, when you finally read it, you came to believe. Ideally, that type of info could be contained in a refrain or “envoy” as the French like to do in their form of ballade.


Good thing I didn't read all of your words in red. Some of my initial impressions would have been cancelled out by that info. So the above is my reactions, however inaccurate. Now that I've finished, I went and read red so I do "get" where you were going with this!!

[Magdalen]

Cast Lamb

My Shepherd led, but I was prone
To wander like a lamb astray;
I clambered down a deep ravine
Led by a strident will that day.

Ere long, immobilized, I lay
And cast, could not get on my feet.
But then I felt the touch of One
Who turned me so that I could eat.

Obedience yields its own reward;
When I my will with His exchanged,
I entered into union sweet,
And thus on verdant pastures ranged.

The revelation in this ballad, if I am understanding it, is “when I my will with His exchanged” so I think it absolutely meets the theme req. And of course, it is well metered. I didn’t scan it, but I also didn’t stumble over Obedience (on 2ns & 3rd reads) because that semi-contraction came to me (I had a phonetically precise English teacher) naturally. I do think the tone is a little refined for a ballad, but the pastoral aspects counter that nicely. Thanks for the exp. on cast. My uncle & cousins farm and have horses. As a child, my cousins would warn me about the dangers of feeding and watering a horse too much, and causing it to founder, but I’d never heard about “cast” except vaguely, in reference to cow-tipping.?! Good job!!!

[Pat~]

Pat - the second line wasn't ever anything to make it 8 syls after the initial changes. The line was originally:
The strength inside that It revealed

But then the last line fell into place and I wanted to use "revealed" there instead.

The strength It had to wield was a quick filler that I simply forgot to go back and fix in my rush.

Well, not so much rush but scatterbrained. Jumping back to make sure the rest was clear enough, then coming back to the poem, then going back to the text, etc. I just overlooked it.

I think it works as:
"The strength Its words inside could wield,
As first to last..."

See re-write in above post.

Thanks for the explanation! Yes, that line works; also, you could consider saying "the strength the words inside could wield." Small difference, though.

[Pat~]

A wild and trusting fool was I,
In younger days, so quick to love,
Beneath a moonlit summer sky
A future bright as stars above.

A pledge we made forever true,
Was broken by the summer’s end.
A full year passed, my heart still blue,
Despair and loss my only friend.

October’s golden leaves fell down
Upon a gentled, wiser me.
Beneath a Harvest Moon I found
A love to last eternity.

This was a gentle and lilting poem, very much 'ballad.' The iambic meter is unbroken, and the rhyme is perfect. I really liked this; it reads very naturally, and the last stanza especially was well-constructed and original. It seems to fit all the requirements of the assignment, too.

Part of me wanted to know how you found the 'love to last eternity'--but with the constraints of the assignment (3 stanzas) I can see why the details couldn't all be included.

Overall a very good poem; nice work, Magdalen!!

[Writer???]

Boy, this is moving right along despite the holiday. Maybe my computer should mess up more often. :D

I'll wait till tomorrow evening (my time) to post the last exercise. By then we should have all the poems and comments.

Is there anything anyone would like to discuss concerning our ballads or the ballad nature of the Redondilla?

[poetinahat]

My comment so far: Getting the hang of the balladic nature of things is proving difficult for me. It's not the same as just writing a poem; I'm glad I'll get one more go at it.

You're all doing phenomenally, and Jeff, you're running a fine workshop.

[Writer???]

Thanks Rob, for your kind comments. And, I'm sure whatever problems you're having with the ballad can't compare to mine with the trochee. :D

[Pat~]

I second that, Writer??? You're really doing a terrific job teaching this. Hope the computer's better now.

And where's P.H.?? :)

[Writer???]

And, speaking of "one more go at it", since others have mentioned wanting to do a second offering, i thought I'd try too. Here is one that deals with discovery of a mythic figure of legend, with a little funny to boot.

A Misextrapulation of Revelational Information

How they had known, I had few clues.
I hadn't told them, as a trap.
And there it was before my eyes,
The gift I'd asked from Santa's lap!

Now this could only mean one thing,
And I was happy as could be.
I knew the truth they'd tried to hide,
No longer could they fool with me.

For years I'd guessed, but had no proof,
But in Mom's closet, there it was!
The gift inside had answered all,
I knew my dad was Santa Claus!

I guess this would be more for the "Stand-up Minstrel" and not the "Traveling" kind of old. :D

[poetinahat]

And BarbershopMom?

[Writer???]

Thanks Pat. I'm glad people are getting somethng out of it. I was worried.

I'm guessing we'll get P.H.'s later tonight or tomorrow. That's why I'm holding off on posting the last exercise till tomorrow evening.

[Writer???]

I think BBSMom had something come up. I haven't seen her in here in awhile. And I hope Dirk starts feeling better soon. Not for the workshop, I just hate to know people are suffering.

[Pat~]

A Misextrapulation of Revelational Information

How they had known, I had few clues.
I hadn't told them, as a trap.
And there it was before my eyes,
The gift I'd asked from Santa's lap!

Now this could only mean one thing,
And I was happy as could be.
I knew the truth they'd tried to hide,
No longer could they fool with me.

For years I'd guessed, but had no proof,
But in Mom's closet, there it was!
The gift inside had answered all,
I knew my dad was Santa Claus!


Fun! Guess the Christmas tune got you in the mood, huh?

Wonderful and lighthearted--this was truly enjoyable. It's interesting; most kids finding out about Santa Claus not being 'real' are a little dejected--but the kid in your poem is happy with the discovery. It's almost as though it's because Santa is still 'real'--he just happens to be the lucky one to have him for a dad. Great poem, Jeff!!

I've been lazy and haven't tried my second one yet. Maybe I'll take a break and give it a shot...

[Writer???]

Thanks Pat, and yes it was the Christmas tune that got me thinking.

If you can squeeze it in please do. I enjoy your work so much, I'd love to see another one!

Everyone has a...I don't know, a completeness, or professionalism, or, polished quality to their work that doesn't seem to come out in mine. At least not to me. I am enjoying this tremendously!

It's the control of form that's helping I think. Focusing on one form is so much easier than reading in the critique forum and trying to figure out what the author is going for and how I can learn from it. Here, I can see how each works within the form restriction and get far more out of it than general reading.