should everything mean something

jerrymouse · Jun 21, 2007

my main character only eats sandwiches-cheese and cucumber, cheese and tommato, occationaly marmite.

this has nothing to do with the story, little to do with the character in general. it is merely a quirk.

is this pointless nonsense? should his eating habits "mean" something in terms of the story or its themes?

what do you reckon. should everything mean something?

Cath · Jun 21, 2007

Ok, what does it tell you about the character that he only eats sandwiches? Is that in line with his actions in the book? Does it make him a more rounded, realistic person?

I would argue that everything needs to contribute to character development, plot or atmosphere. If it doesn't, I'd take it out. But I also suspect this adds to character development, so I might leave that in.

aruna · Jun 21, 2007

It does tell me a little bit about him. Nothing particularly deep or mindbending, but it adds a quirk to his character. It's fine.

janetbellinger · Jun 21, 2007

It means he's an obsessive-compulsive sort of person. How does this quirk fit in with the rest of his personality? Is he a nervous sort of guy or does he get obsessed with the details of a crime or something?

jerrymouse said:
my main character only eats sandwiches-cheese and cucumber, cheese and tommato, occationaly marmite.

this has nothing to do with the story, little to do with the character in general. it is merely a quirk.

is this pointless nonsense? should his eating habits "mean" something in terms of the story or its themes?

what do you reckon. should everything mean something?

Shadow_Ferret · Jun 21, 2007

Personally, I think this "everything needs to mean something" style of writing is hogwash. People have quirks in real life. We don't psychoanalyze them, why do we feel it necessary to analyze everything in a novel?

I hated those classes in college where people were picking apart every little detail, even why the characters were named the way they were, or why they wore red that day, etc. etc. Then the one jag in the class would always yell, "Epiphany!"

My character eats Hamburger Helper because he's a lousy cook. No epiphany about that. If he puts on a red shirt it's because his blue shirt is in the wash.

He's like real people, and that was my intention. To write him so no jag can ever jump up and go, "Epiphany!"

ccarver30 · Jun 21, 2007

In my novels, mostly everything means something. I have a ton of "hidden" meanings. I think it just depends on the writer's style.

Willowmound · Jun 21, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
Personally, I think this "everything needs to mean something" style of writing is hogwash. People have quirks in real life. We don't psychoanalyze them, why do we feel it necessary to analyze everything in a novel?

Because art is not real life. Few things are as in real life in novels, and I'm sure you know this. Try transcribing an actual conversation. Then look at how differently you write your realistic-sounding dialogue.

Shadow_Ferret said:
I hated those classes in college where people were picking apart every little detail, even why the characters were named the way they were, or why they wore red that day, etc. etc. Then the one jag in the class would always yell, "Epiphany!"

I hated those too.

Shadow_Ferret said:
My character eats Hamburger Helper because he's a lousy cook.

Because it's as simple as that. The above reveals character. Ergo, it means something.

Yes, everything should mean something. Because why else are you telling me?

dkglenning · Jun 21, 2007

I think it all really depends on what kind of book you're writing, and what kind of person you're character is. If it's not really going to matter in the long run, (i.e. if it does not develop the plot) you want to remove it. especilly if you are writing a mystery of some sort. But if it's something else entirely, than it could help you. For example, if you want to stress that perhaps your character is unique or just flat out not with it, than you should probably include, as you say, quirks. Like the sandwhich facination. Or maybe you want to use it to draw attention to differences. Maybe this character is the complete opposite of another character, which will come into play later, maybe. Are the quirks something you want your reader to understand? Is it going to develop your character. Or maybe an incriminating mayonaise stain on an anonymous letter. No, I'm just kidding about that last part. But seriously, if it's making your character real to the readers, you should deffinately keep it. If it isn't, consider rearranging its context. It's all in the context you use it in. Some can help your story and some will harm it.
Hope that made sense. Best of luck ~DKG

jerrymouse · Jun 21, 2007

dkglenning said:
I think it all really depends on what kind of book you're writing, and what kind of person you're character is. If it's not really going to matter in the long run, (i.e. if it does not develop the plot) you want to remove it. especilly if you are writing a mystery of some sort. But if it's something else entirely, than it could help you. For example, if you want to stress that perhaps your character is unique or just flat out not with it, than you should probably include, as you say, quirks. Like the sandwhich facination. Or maybe you want to use it to draw attention to differences. Maybe this character is the complete opposite of another character, which will come into play later, maybe. Are the quirks something you want your reader to understand? Is it going to develop your character. Or maybe an incriminating mayonaise stain on an anonymous letter. No, I'm just kidding about that last part. But seriously, if it's making your character real to the readers, you should deffinately keep it. If it isn't, consider rearranging its context. It's all in the context you use it in. Some can help your story and some will harm it.
Hope that made sense. Best of luck ~DKG

its better to get varred feedback then none at all.

Calla Lily · Jun 21, 2007

I have detailed character charts for all my main characters. For example, my MC eats peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast, while working. A decent detail to help make her 3-D. But according to her character chart, she's been between jobs once too often and had to either pay the rent or eat. So when she has a steady income, she still eats on the cheap, because she's tired of living on crackers and water. And she's a dedicated employee. This "carefulness" will play out in her wardrobe, her interactions with her boss, everywhere.

So in my writing, everything means something--just not necessarily something earth-shattering.

AllieB · Jun 21, 2007

No, everything doesn't have to mean something epiphanic, but I would agree that including a detail about his sandwiches probably does tell us something about his character. If it doesn't, if it's totally not in keeping with the kind of person he is, then what's the info doing there?

Character (and plot) development can and should happen in many different ways, little and big. Sandwich-eating habits may not ever be a detail that's pulled apart in a writing class, but all those details add up to a more colorful story, IMHO.

And by the way, Shadow Ferret, your sentence about the red shirt vs. the blue shirt is one of those details, like it or not. If your character doesn't wear the blue shirt that's in the wash, he's not the same character as someone who pulls out the dirty blue shirt and wears it anyway. Like it or not, you're creating character when you make a choice like that.

jerrymouse · Jun 21, 2007

this is great guys, really helpfull.
so, if i want to make something of the sandwich

idea: tries to think of something profoundly witty) how often could i refur to it. how many times can i reflect his actions or character with this quirk before it becomes pythonesque?
can i allow such comparisons to be implicit rather than explicit. if the former then maybe just mentioning he only eats sanwiches is enough, if the latter then i fear becoming silly.

Calla Lily · Jun 21, 2007

I mention the MC eating the sandwich once in chapter 2.

I have her mentioning only being able to afford PB and cheap white bread in chapter 4 when she's deciding whether snooping on people--and getting a promotion and raise--will copromise her morals.

That's it. End of quirk.

janetbellinger · Jun 21, 2007

I guess it depends on how well you want your reader to know the characters in your book. As a reader, I like to know the characters in the books I read, otherwise I lose interest in it. If a person I met in real life told me (s)he only ate sandwiches I would wonder what the reason was for that. If we are only talking about the type of sandwich (s)he prefers then it's not all that interesting. In my own writing, I am lazy enough to want to make the most out of the details I put in, so that if I went to the trouble of having somebody only eat a certain type of sandwich, I'd have her get sick of eating them by the end of the novel and vow never to eat them again, or I'd have them get salmonella from them or something and narrowly escape death or something. But that's just me. I agree we shouldn't analyse everything, but there are so many books out there to choose from , plus the competition from the internet etc., that I only want to read novels that have something to teach me.

janetbellinger · Jun 21, 2007

That's fine, Calla. You show her reason for eating them. It's not a quirk, she just can't afford anything else.

callalily61 said:
I mention the MC eating the sandwich once in chapter 2.

I have her mentioning only being able to afford PB and cheap white bread in chapter 4 when she's deciding whether snooping on people--and getting a promotion and raise--will copromise her morals.

That's it. End of quirk.

Willowmound · Jun 21, 2007

jerrymouse said:
how often could i refur to it.

Don't put fur on your sandwich. Tastes horrible.

And contrary to popular belief, the sandwich is naturally hairless. So re-furring would in fact make it less simmilar to an actual wild sandwich. Because it wouldn't be 're-', it would just be 'furring'.

Don't do it. Have you ever had a hair stuck between your teeth?

Dave.C.Robinson · Jun 21, 2007

If it doesn't mean something, why did you write it? Every word should advance your story, which implies they have to have some meaning. Whether you intend it or not, the fact a character only eats sandwiches will tell the reader something about them. It may show personality, economic status, or even that they're on the run and don't have time to eat anything that takes longer to cook. It may be used to set the tone of the scene, a little bit of detail to help flesh out a setting.

There are lots of meanings that can be applied, and if you don't someone else will. For me it all comes down to making the words work for the writer. The meaning doesn't have to be important, or even the same one each time. However, each time the character eats a sandwich there should be a reason why it's pertinent to the reader that they are. Otherwise you should leave it out.

swvaughn · Jun 21, 2007

I want a sammich.

sadron · Jun 21, 2007

In the end everything has meaning in the story. A sandwich can affect main character's mood later and so on.

Spiny Norman · Jun 21, 2007

Starting with quirks is a great way to get an idea for a character. Like, when they get up in the morning, what do they do? Moan about being hungover? Go for a jog? Where did they jog? Do they make tea? If so, what kind, and do they wind up making the same kind at the same time every day? Do they smoke first thing? Do they smoke indoors or out? What do they smoke?

You don't need to include all of this specifically. It's just sort of putting the puzzle pieces together and starting at the corners, then at the edges, then working in. I mean, nothing in the puzzle that's nice looking or important is going to be at the edges or corners, right? But if you put the outside together then you can see it all line up and say, "AH! This is a puzzle of a circus!" and then start on the middle, piecing together all the bits of the circus.

When it gets to action and plot it becomes much easier to anticipate your character's reactions and moods and viewpoint. Just because you know what he ate that day.

wordmonkey · Jun 21, 2007

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I often find that I include some detail that I have no idea why I included, and then half a story later, it is obvious WHY that needed to be like it was. This even happened to the extent that a throw-away gag I wrote ended up being THE pivotal point in the final show-down with the big villain.

Though all that cheese and nothing else substantial in the diet. My I suggest the character eats the sandwiches on whole-wheat bread. Gonna spend a lot of time in the bathroom constipated otherwise.

Spiny Norman · Jun 21, 2007

wordmonkey said:
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Possibly, but when it comes to books, when a cigar's just a cigar you're probably reading a book about cigars. In novels even a cigar can tell you something, even if it's pretty small and has no effect on the plot or meaning.

Like, Starbuck in Battlestar Galatica smokes a cigar. But as she's an impulsive, arrogant, and attractive woman, it adds to your perception of the character.

cletus · Jun 21, 2007

Why does your character only eat sandwiches?
Is it is because they're cheap?
Is it because they're quick and easy?
They both tell us something about the character.
Is it because they are the only thing he is willing to eat? If he's obsessive about only eating sandwiches it could rule his entire life. It takes a lot of planning and/or worrying to make sure he is always able to get a sandwich and will impact his relationships with others as it limits his choices of where to go out, etc.

mscelina · Jun 21, 2007

In the long run, it doesn't matter what this quirk tells the reader; it matters what it tells you. As a writer, you have to know your characters inside and out. This little touch of realism will help you determine the different aspects of your character's personality--and enable you to get that across to the reader with a stronger sense of conviction. The sandwich itself desn't have to be important (and the MC doesn't need to eat one every chapter to drive the point home) but as a building block for a personality it can lead to a plethora of different directions to go. As long as YOU know why he/she eats the sandwich that's all that matters.

IMHO, of course.

jerrymouse · Jun 21, 2007

Willowmound said:
Don't put fur on your sandwich. Tastes horrible.

And contrary to popular belief, the sandwich is naturally hairless. So re-furring would in fact make it less simmilar to an actual wild sandwich. Because it wouldn't be 're-', it would just be 'furring'.

Don't do it. Have you ever had a hair stuck between your teeth?

nicely done.
if i am in any doubt of a spelling again i will refir to my dictionary.

should everything mean something

jerrymouse

Cath

The mean one

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

janetbellinger

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

ccarver30

Nicole Castro

Willowmound

Lightly salted

dkglenning

jerrymouse

Calla Lily

On hiatus

AllieB

jerrymouse

Calla Lily

On hiatus

janetbellinger

janetbellinger

Willowmound

Lightly salted

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

swvaughn

adrift

sadron

Writing Dark Fantasy

Spiny Norman

wordmonkey

ook

Spiny Norman

cletus

I'm a king bee

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

jerrymouse