How bad is too bad?

heyjude · Jun 20, 2007

Inspired by other threads talking about character development: How bad does a character have to be before he is not redeemable?

My MC is Not a Nice Guy. And the harder he tries to be good, the scarier he gets. I'm wondering how far I can push it before the reader loses faith that he can redeemed.

Any thoughts?

Prawn · Jun 20, 2007

I think that you can separate the character's actions from his feelings about those action. A book where a hit man gleefully whacks people is different book from one where a man has had to kill and feels horrible guilt about it. Your MC can do some pretty stinky things as long as he is remorseful.

Writer2011 · Jun 20, 2007

I'm not really sure but i've seen some pretty nasty characters---but you might not want to push him too far where he can't be redeemed...then again if that's what you're aiming for it's up to you.

Hope this helps

ChaosTitan · Jun 20, 2007

heyjude said:
Inspired by other threads talking about character development: How bad does a character have to be before he is not redeemable?

This line will be different for every reader, but I agree with Prawn in that it depends greatly on how the character feels about his actions. And how the writer portrays those actions.

seun · Jun 20, 2007

Is it really about if a character can be redemmed? Or is it more important to focus on the character being interesting - whether they're good or bad?

Danger Jane · Jun 20, 2007

I think it depends on the character. If the character is doing really despicable things, the reader is going to want to understand why, and if you can't get the motivation (and the humanity) of this despicable character across to the reader...that's a turn-off.

For me, a character can go around killing people NOT feeling guilty, as long as I understand why he's doing these horrible things.

I don't know if redemption is as necessary as humanization.

triceretops · Jun 20, 2007

Call me kooky or behind the times, but I have never written an unsympathetic or nasty character into my storyline as the MC. The problems and conflicts that my MC faces are nasty. But I don't tilt him/her too far over the edge for fear of the reader or editor pulling away, unable to identify or empathize. Then again, this might wholly be one of those Man vs himself themes, and that he grows with enlightenment, which MIGHT justify his behavoir.

I'd have to know what genre this is, and just how bad the MC is. Is he one of the main characters, or is he in fact the main POV character?

Tri

janetbellinger · Jun 20, 2007

I think it's okay if the main character is nasty as long as he either grows as a person throughout the novel and atones for his actions or else ends up going to jail or otherwise incurring poetic justice.

Jay Byrne · Jun 20, 2007

If the character is believable and the reader understands the motivation for the actions then it's possible to have your MC do some really bad things in pursuit of justice/whatever.
The Dexter books by Jeff Lindsay are a good example of this.

NeuroFizz · Jun 20, 2007

I've said this in other threads of similar topic, but read The Name of the Game is Death by Dan J. Marlowe (old pulp classic, really a novella). His main character, Earl Drake, is a horrible person. Yet he gains reader sympathy because everyone around him is even worse.

JamieFord · Jun 20, 2007

i think it depends on what you're going for. In Hannibal, there's a main character that's nasty, but somehow endearing.

But more literary reads, like Feast of Snakes by Harry Crews, you have a book where every character is pretty much detestable. The writing is brilliant, but the book is painful to read. Too painful for most people, I'm sure.

MarkEsq · Jun 20, 2007

Not a book, obviously, but the MC in the show House has very few redeeming qualities whatsoever. And I'm not just talking about for a tv character.
I think he holds our attention, and sympathies, because we are curious about why he is like that. Is it because he is (a little bit) crippled? Is it because he still loves the wife he no longer has? Is it because he is tons smarter than all those around him and he can't understand what it is to be human and flawed (even though, of course, he is)?

KTC · Jun 20, 2007

I'm sorry, but does a character have to be redeemable?

JoNightshade · Jun 20, 2007

MarkEsq said:
Not a book, obviously, but the MC in the show House has very few redeeming qualities whatsoever. And I'm not just talking about for a tv character.
I think he holds our attention, and sympathies, because we are curious about why he is like that. Is it because he is (a little bit) crippled? Is it because he still loves the wife he no longer has? Is it because he is tons smarter than all those around him and he can't understand what it is to be human and flawed (even though, of course, he is)?

Or is he just a total JERK?

I love that show because they ride that line so well. Is he pitiable? Is he redeemable? Or should I hate his guts? I don't know! That's why I keep watching. They've made me WANT to believe that he's good, somewhere inside. And every now and then they offer me a teensy hint that MAYBE my hopes are justified. But never too much. Never enough.

Now that's damn good writing. (And acting and stuff.)

josephwise · Jun 20, 2007

Read American Psycho. Patrick Bateman does bad things. More than any character I've ever seen, in fact. He has no remorse, and he does nothing in the name of justice. And despite the title of the book, and other hints that he's crazy, he can't even be considered a mere "victim of insanity," because he remains completely accountable throughout the story.

But he's sympathetic. We can see some of ourselves in him. As others have said, it's the reader's ability to understand the MC that drives it all home.

Being interesting, or mysterious, just isn't enough. If the reader wonders why the MC does what he does, the reader must also be able, in part, to answer that question on his own.

triceretops · Jun 20, 2007

I agree with the above. But evil just for the sake of evil is one-dimensional and hardly gratifying. There has to be some type of inner quality that we can identify with--what is the motivational driving force behind his/her actions that prompt them to this type of behavior?

In that movie The Unforgiven, Clint's character suffers from a violent past, full of alcohol abuse and outright murder. We see/invision his past via confessions in his dialogs. But. We know where he comes from, therefore we can (maybe) forgive him for his vicious killing spree at the end.

The Grinch--we know why he's an azzhole--persecution complex

Dirty Harry Calahan--he's a rule bender, but justice courage and loyalty are his shining attributes.

Tri

Feathers · Jun 20, 2007

I, too, agree with the above. However, I don't think its nessacary (or right) to throw in some horrible past just so your charecter has motive--thats cardboard to me. The charecter my not even know why he/she is doing all the crap he/she is doing.

But to answer the original question: I belive that when a charecter breaks thier own invisible boundries, thier own invisible rules, then they become un-redeemable. (sp?) When they stop having motive for what they are doing, and they know they are doing it without motive, then to me they've tipped over. If Jason murders Arriana in revenge, that makes sense. If Jason doesn't care one iota about revenge and just murder Arriana anyway, he is now un-redeemable.

I hope that makes sense.

heyjude · Jun 20, 2007

Thanks all... My MC is the POV narrator. He hates himself for what he does, but can't seem to get a grip on himself. He really believes he's a product of his environment and his genetics. In the end, he takes a good shot at redemption, but falls a little short.

heyjude · Jun 20, 2007

KTC said:
I'm sorry, but does a character have to be redeemable?

KTC: In my specific case, yes. But it's a great question. Personally, I think the general answer's no, but s/he dang well better be interesting

.

How bad is too bad?

heyjude

Making my own sunshine

Prawn

Writing is finite,revising infinite

Writer2011

ChaosTitan

Around

seun

Horror Man

Danger Jane

triceretops

janetbellinger

Jay Byrne

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

JamieFord

giving resonant directions

MarkEsq

Clever title pending.

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

JoNightshade

has finally arrived

josephwise

triceretops

Feathers

emerging from the writing cave

heyjude

Making my own sunshine

heyjude

Making my own sunshine