Disturbing

[DarkLight]

It isn't dark fantasy, it isn't serial killer thriller or mystery, it isn't horror. It's science fiction and it isn't pretty. Just about every character is somehow tortured, killed, raped...or maybe their kids and wife are raped and tortured to death in front of them. Really bad things happen to all of them, maybe a few people get out with very minor damage...okay one one-the-side character gets out without much damage...then again, I haven't gotten t her part of the story yet. It isn't constant horror, but it almost always relates to it somehow and most of it focuses of the emotonal and mental repercussions of the horror. It is all part of a deep, dark theme I'm trying to get across. In all seriousness, I won't change it because I write for the theme, for the book, for the passion, and for impacting the audience, whether or not they want the happy ending. If they don't like it, they don't have to read it. People who like it can. Never-the-less, I'd like your reaction to the idea of a book filled with gory, horrific details when it isn't specifically horror. Is it too much for you personally, or don't you really care as long as there is purpose? Again, I won't change it, but I want to know how people in general might react.

[Shady Lane]

I like to be shocked.

When you have too much, it ceases to be shocking.

[Dancre]

I probably wouldn't read it. It sounds like you have wayyyy toooo much gore, imo. It also sounds like it's just gore, no plot, which could be boring. But it's your story. And you might want to remember what our own Uncle Jim says, the reader is King, not you.

kim

[Danger Jane]

Word, Shady. We must share brainwaves.

If it's necessary to progress the story/characters, then include it. It you get excessively gory, people may be turned off. Say exactly what you must.

It might help to include all the gory gratuitous the first time around, and then do a vicious edit.

[LaceWing]

A Clockwork Orange was like this, as I recall. If there are interesting reasons for the world to so horrible, that might be enough to carry it.

[mscelina]

There's definitely an audience for it--a very small audience, but it's there.

[Zoombie]

They're is an audience for everything.

On terms of dark, ever thing that is dark, whether it's a video game, TV show, movie or book has to have something that is good and decent to hold onto...even if it exists to be taken away. Like, in System Shock 2, the player is plunged into a space ship filled with inhuman monsters. The only voices he hears are the voices in his head telling him to lay down and die, or the prerecorded messages of the crew as they try to figure out what is going on before their untimely death. But there is one voice, another survivor, that leads the player through the darkness to escape. Then, halfway through, the survivor turns out to be an even worse monster than the ones you've been fighting!

So yeah, give the readers something good to hold onto, break the tension every once and a while, and that makes the horror even worse.

Make sense?

[JamieFord]

Honestly, I hate gore for gore's sake. Or horror for horror's sake. I walk into Blockbuster and see rows of Saw III--Hostel--Devil's Rejects, etc...and I get annoyed. Not at the gore. But in how utterly inane it all is. Special effects can't make up for lack of story or character development, even if those special effects are bloody stumps. The same with books, short stories, etc.

And I absolutely love Harlan Ellison's, Deathbird stories, so don't think I'm squeamish. But at least he's dark from a literary sense, without it just being an orgy of violence.

[Zoombie]

Oh, I've always admired the character development in System Shock 2...mostly becuase there are really no characters left alive but it still does a great job of characterizing them.

I'll stop with the SS2 references.

So yes, another thing you have to have is not the gore, but the reaction to the gore. The kind of recation that is mirrored in the reader, so they feel ill. I think that works...

[JamieFord]

So yes, another thing you have to have is not the gore, but the reaction to the gore. The kind of recation that is mirrored in the reader, so they feel ill. I think that works...

Nailed it.

[JoNightshade]

On terms of dark, ever thing that is dark, whether it's a video game, TV show, movie or book has to have something that is good and decent to hold onto...even if it exists to be taken away.
[deleted SS2 references, sorry]
So yeah, give the readers something good to hold onto, break the tension every once and a while, and that makes the horror even worse.

Amen, brotha! I totally approach "dark" fiction this way. I have a kind of personal balance between dark and light... if the dark outweighs the light enough to tip my scale, I turn it off or shut the book. Doesn't mean there has to be a happy ending, not at all, but there has to be SOMETHING. Some reason for it all.

[Writer2011]

Sounds like several movies i've seen so nothing could shock me.

[midwife]

Since you asked for opinions, I avoid books where kids are raped and tortured and killed. But, like you said, you aren't going to change it.

[Gillhoughly]

There's an audience for this stuff; I'm just not in it, nor do I edit it.

Best to try placing it with a publisher who's already bought similar stuff.

[ClaudiaGray]

I'm with Gilloughly.

[Chasing the Horizon]

There is something to be said for contrast. When I finished the first draft of my novel I noticed that the tone in a lot of the book was much 'lighter' than I'd imagined it would be. I decided this was a good thing, because when the horrific, disturbing scenes happen (and when I do dark and disturbing, trust me, it ain't pretty) they seem even darker and more disturbing because of the lighter parts preceding and following them. As a reader, a book that was all darkness and pain would get almost as monotonous for me as a book that was all happiness and sunshine.

Having said that, there is nothing that I consider 'taboo' or 'going too far' so long as there's a reason for it to happen that way. My fantasy series has a very uplifting theme and some great comedy scenes, but I could probably give the OP some competition for darkest single scene. (Maybe when Deedra feeds the baby to the snake?)

To answer the OP's question, I probably would be interested in reading a book like that, so long as it had a sensical plot (as opposed to random violence) and good characters. The only thing that offends me is bad writing.

[Jay Byrne]

I'd imagine the violence and gore would quickly lose its impact and become tiresome.
The threat of injury or death could be sustained for longer, building up suspense and apprehension in the reader. IMO, it's quite like the problem of horror movies showing the 'monster' in the first fifteen minutes. Once it has been shown, it's grasp on the audience or reader has slackened.

I obviously haven't read your work so I could be wrong but if the MC is experiencing these kind of horrific scenes right through the story, each event could lessen the impact of the next if not handled deftly.

Just my lowly beginner's opinion.

Btw, I love a bit of the old ultra-violence, myself. :D

[Sofie]

Gore for gore's sake is boring (and this is coming from a girl who absolutely loves anything with zombies in it). Movies like Hostel I don't even watch, because I am not interested in watching two hours of torture. There's just no point to it other than, well, the gore!

However, the goriest thing I've read lately was the latest trade paperback of Robert Kirkman's The Walking Dead. It's absolutely disgusting and vile, and I loved every second of reading it! Why? Because of the build up. The characters involved in the gorey scene had been through so many things and it was interesting to see how what happened to them affected them. The gore was good because it made me feel something (a little bit happy - the person had it coming - a little bit sad - sucks that a previously normal person became so traumatized , and obviously quite horrified).

So yeah, you can have as much gore as you like as long as there is something else to the story as well. I have to care for the story to care for the gore, you know?

[James D. Macdonald]

The genre was called Spatterpunk. It had a brief flowering. John Skipp and Craig Spector come to mind. Now it's not such an easy sell, to anyone.

[swvaughn]

Honestly, I hate gore for gore's sake. Or horror for horror's sake. I walk into Blockbuster and see rows of Saw III--Hostel--Devil's Rejects, etc...and I get annoyed. Not at the gore. But in how utterly inane it all is. Special effects can't make up for lack of story or character development, even if those special effects are bloody stumps. The same with books, short stories, etc.

And I absolutely love Harlan Ellison's, Deathbird stories, so don't think I'm squeamish. But at least he's dark from a literary sense, without it just being an orgy of violence.

I wonder, anyone who's seen Saw III -- was there a plot? I thought the first Saw was pretty cool... it did actually have a plot, and quite a bit of the tension was psychological. Two guys in a room. Of course, there was a lot of gore, but it did (I thought) further the plot.

Yeah, so... anyone seen Saw III?

[RumpleTumbler]

Yeah, so... anyone seen Saw III?

After the first two I didn't see the point. They were only going to try and outgore the other two. The first one I liked ok but the second was just trying to one up the first which made it suck IMO.

[Will Lavender]

The genre was called Spatterpunk. It had a brief flowering. John Skipp and Craig Spector come to mind. Now it's not such an easy sell, to anyone.

I used to love splatterpunk. I own both of Paul Sammon's Splatterpunks anthologies.

However, the thing about that genre was that it had "contrast," as others are talking about above. It was dark, yes, but it was also hellaciously funny. I'm thinking of stories like Ray Garton's "Live Girls" and Phillip Nutman's "Wet Work" and all of Joe R. Lansdale

The difference between that genre and what the OP is writing is that balance. Seems as if the OP has his foot to the pedal at all times, and as Shady Lane observes, there's a possibility that the reader is going to fail to be moved at some point because of the mere volume of the darkness without anything to balance it.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I like SF, and some horror, but this doesn't seem like something I'd read. From the description it sounds like the OP is writing all these horrible things to explore the characters' reactions and the repercussions. I don't need to wallow in that kind of thing.

Still good luck with it.

[The Lady]

Nope I wouldn't read it. It doesn't doesn't reflect where I'm at in my life or anything I want to know. I started reading Stephen Donaldson's The Gap series a long times ago and stopped two and a half books in, fed up to the back teeth with the routine bloody torture.
I'm not even interested in a summary of how everyone ended up. I just don't care.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

It isn't dark fantasy, it isn't serial killer thriller or mystery, it isn't horror. It's science fiction and it isn't pretty. Just about every character is somehow tortured, killed, raped...or maybe their kids and wife are raped and tortured to death in front of them. Really bad things happen to all of them, maybe a few people get out with very minor damage...okay one one-the-side character gets out without much damage...then again, I haven't gotten t her part of the story yet. It isn't constant horror, but it almost always relates to it somehow and most of it focuses of the emotonal and mental repercussions of the horror. It is all part of a deep, dark theme I'm trying to get across. In all seriousness, I won't change it because I write for the theme, for the book, for the passion, and for impacting the audience, whether or not they want the happy ending. If they don't like it, they don't have to read it. People who like it can. Never-the-less, I'd like your reaction to the idea of a book filled with gory, horrific details when it isn't specifically horror. Is it too much for you personally, or don't you really care as long as there is purpose? Again, I won't change it, but I want to know how people in general might react.


I personally don't think I would read it. Like Shady Lane pointed out, if there's too much shocking content, it ceases to be shocking. If a couple people were murdered in the entirety of the book, that would be one thing; but to me, constant rapes, torturing, and killing is just too much. If you want to shock people, my suggestion would be to have it implied throughout much of the work and focus on two or three specific incidents within the piece.

But like you said, you're not going to change it, and that's fine. But personally speaking, I would not read it.

[DarkLight]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions...I keep getting a lot of comparisons to Hostel so let me clear up something that may have been a bit unclear. Yes, there is a lot of pain and suffering, but I would never write something where the theme was based around gore for gore's sake. That isn't my style. I like to focus on the psychological aspects of the whole thing and most of the suffering is psychological, emotional, mental...not physical, even if the fear of the physical pain is quite prominant (I spelled that wrong didn't I?). I like to put my characters into difficult situations where they have to choose between themselves and others, beliefs and reality, truth and lies. And I am well aware that a lot of people are turned off by books with gore and suffering. My English Teacher, when asked about the list of possible selected readings, told us that A Clockwork Orange was for those of us that were "sick and weird." I was always sort of turned off by stuff that is too happy. Pain is reality and I want to be realistic. Then again, too much isn't very realistic either, which is why it isn't Hostel in style. I especially appraciated the comments on the "shock factor." It would make sense that too much eliminates shock and surprise, and I'm trying to use variety, orgainization, character potray and developement, to help eliminate that problem. I expect it will get harder to do as I go along. Most of what I do is character based rather than plot based and I think that will help. Anyway, thanks for the honesty and comments!

--DarkLight (It's spelled right this time)