How big?

MattW · Jun 17, 2007

If I were building a fearsome, generally humanoid race, how big, fast, and powerful would they need to be entirely unchallenged by normal human warriors? As they are a extreme rarity, I want them to stand out on a battlefield, literally head and shoulders (and then some) above all others.

7+ feet tall? 8 feet?

And so they don't look like a bunch of pituitary freaks, how much would one weight to be proportional? 500 lbs? 600? Records of tallest men are near or over 400 lbs.

I fear I'm treading into a Dragaeran from Brust / Toblokai from Erikson area, but I think I've got a good concept. Not a lot of magic to speak of, just brute strength, unmatched reflexes, and exceptional cleverness.

dclary · Jun 17, 2007

I'd say if you had men who averaged Shaq-size, but fit, you're going to be dominating. 7-foot, 400 pounds. Muscle.

badducky · Jun 17, 2007

MattW said:
If I were building a fearsome, generally humanoid race, how big, fast, and powerful would they need to be entirely unchallenged by normal human warriors? As they are a extreme rarity, I want them to stand out on a battlefield, literally head and shoulders (and then some) above all others.

Actually they're not an extreme rarity on the battlefield. Quite common.

They're called "teenagers".

Zoombie · Jun 17, 2007

Make them ten feet tall, weight eight hundred pounds, all mucle, with the speed of a couger and the brains of a highly trained ape.

In other words: Jayne Cobb.

Jenny · Jun 17, 2007

Not sure of the science. I'd vote for seven feet and "almost human" (apologies to the tall people). The question did prompt me to think of other "almost human" traits on the battlefield.

I read an article recently on a scientist developing robots to fight wars, but one of his development aims is to make them ethical. So, their range of actions won't include immoral actions within the context of their known situation. Makes me wonder what "almost humans" constrained to act ethically even in battle would be like.

Sorry to wander off topic.

zornhau · Jun 18, 2007

It all depends on what you want to say about humanity, war and martial arts.

If they're human trolls: big, broad, with a long reach, well trained and fight as a team, then they'll be indomitable hand-to-hand. They will, however, be infantry only.

Expect the regular opposition to invest in horse archers and ballista-style field artillery.

Skimp on teamwork, and the regular humans should still be able to take them using polearms.

Skimp on training and they'll be dogmeat against real warriors.

waylander · Jun 18, 2007

What you're proposing sounds similar to the 'White-eyes' in Tom Lloyd's Stormcaller, published in the UK by Gollancz

waylander · Jun 18, 2007

They'd be a big target for a horseman with a lance

zornhau · Jun 18, 2007

waylander said:
They'd be a big target for a horseman with a lance

It would have to be a very long lance, since they woud be capable of carrying very nasty polearms.

Saanen · Jun 18, 2007

Think bears, the males of which (depending on the species) can be something like 10+ feet tall when standing on their hind legs, and are great big and ferocious in the bargain. Make them a little more humanoid and bingo.

Higgins · Jun 18, 2007

Otomi

MattW said:
If I were building a fearsome, generally humanoid race, how big, fast, and powerful would they need to be entirely unchallenged by normal human warriors? As they are a extreme rarity, I want them to stand out on a battlefield, literally head and shoulders (and then some) above all others.

7+ feet tall? 8 feet?

And so they don't look like a bunch of pituitary freaks, how much would one weight to be proportional? 500 lbs? 600? Records of tallest men are near or over 400 lbs.

I fear I'm treading into a Dragaeran from Brust / Toblokai from Erikson area, but I think I've got a good concept. Not a lot of magic to speak of, just brute strength, unmatched reflexes, and exceptional cleverness.

If I had to have a group of super warriors, my model would be the Otomi. The Otomi were roughly Jicarilla Apache size (6 feet and a little more and very muscular), but their opponents were all say a foot shorter (the Spanish except for Alvarado and the Tlascans with the Spanish). the Otomi were hired by the Aztecs as mercenaries, but they were in many ways more civilized than the Aztecs. Their combat techniques were very flexible, though they don't seem to have liked big sticks edged with obsidian. They were famous for throwing big rocks. So...in sum, rather than making the super warriors super big, make them just 6 feet something and make all their enemies five feet something. Anyway, that's what I would do.

MattW · Jun 18, 2007

Thanks for all the replies.

I've been treating them as beings who think of themselves as god-like (their only comparison being humans). They are fast, smart, well trained, and near immortal in life span.

Some of the comments, especially Zornhau, gives me a reason to depict battles as I envision them. The demi-gods surround themselves with loyal armies to protect them from being mobbed by the lesser humans, and with units of their own seeking out the opposing demi-god with polearms.

They are aware of their own prowess and weaknesses, and won't take unnecessary risks, letting the humans do the dying for the feuds.

zornhau · Jun 18, 2007

Congratulations...

...you've just reinvented standard tank tactical doctrine. As I understand it, WWII era tanks often advance behind a screen of infantry.

You could milk that further. Have an ongoing debates as to whether you should mass your humanotrolls, or deploy them in penny packets to support the lesser units; and whether warriors ought to be equipped for specialised functions, e.g. a heavily armoured specialist bowman.

Fenika · Jun 18, 2007

MattW said:
just brute strength, unmatched reflexes, and exceptional cleverness.

Generally speaking (though we are in the fantasy forum) you can not combine brute strength and unmatched reflexes. All that muscle mass does not allow for super fast movement- it gets in the way. It doesn't mean they have to be slowwww. They just shouldn't be faster than the more proportional humans (there's a reason giants are mocked as slow and clumsy). Think of sumo wrestlers vs ninjas, cats vs dogs (dogs being a little bulkier), etc.
In my mind, if these giants are going to be muscular and fast, you'd have to justify it, or comment on it (even a 'Dang, how do they move like that??!' by a human might do.)
Big figures also need a big frame. Pound for pound their bones need to be far thicker than simply scaling up (ie- an animal that weighs 2x as much needs a frame (bone) that is say, 3x as thick). This also makes it difficult to have quick reflexes (a bird vs a buffalo. Sure, the buffalo can MOVE, but the bird could still have it's eyes out before the buffalo saw it coming...). Or a horse vs a cow would be a more reasonable example.
So you'll have to drawn the line between realism and fantasy, but I would make them slow- no need to make them super human in the reflex department when there is no justification for it. And it gives the humans something to work with (but watch out! that 'slow' moving arm can still swing a punch that kills!)
Hope that helps!
Cheers,
Christina

Higgins · Jun 18, 2007

Pavia

zornhau said:
...you've just reinvented standard tank tactical doctrine. As I understand it, WWII era tanks often advance behind a screen of infantry.

You could milk that further. Have an ongoing debates as to whether you should mass your humanotrolls, or deploy them in penny packets to support the lesser units; and whether warriors ought to be equipped for specialised functions, e.g. a heavily armoured specialist bowman.

Or look at the Battle of Pavia (1525) where the Gens d'arms and King Francis (demigods for our purposes) where stopped by pikemen, disrupted by artillery and finished off at pointblank range by the lowly arquibuisiers.

Tank doctrine can be just as twisted. In WWII the US had a crappy armored doctrine (featuring "Tank Destroyers") and crappy tanks, but plenty of gas and good recon and radio discipline so it all came out okay.

There was never enough infantry to go with the tanks and the "armored infantry" didn't work as planned so some infantry regiments (a brigade-sized unit in the US Army of the time) such as the 12th (J. D. Salinger's regiment) were fixed up with trucks and sent along with the tanks...or "Combat Commands"....

waylander · Jun 18, 2007

Plus these big guys will get through food and water at an impressive rate. They going to carry all their supplies with them?

badducky · Jun 18, 2007

Popular tactic that was defeated by longbows:

Gigantic men with two handed axes that step in front of the shield wall for hand-to-hand combat, and step behind it for projectiles.

The Norman invasion of England conquered King Harold's Giant Axe Trolls.

C.bronco · Jun 18, 2007

If I were you, I'd pick a few of the tallest pro basketball players and use their proportions.
I stood in line at a snack bar amidst a b-ball team once, and though I am short (5'2"), their elbows were above my head.

Sassee · Jun 18, 2007

MattW said:
If I were building a fearsome, generally humanoid race, how big, fast, and powerful would they need to be entirely unchallenged by normal human warriors? As they are a extreme rarity, I want them to stand out on a battlefield, literally head and shoulders (and then some) above all others.

7+ feet tall? 8 feet?

And so they don't look like a bunch of pituitary freaks, how much would one weight to be proportional? 500 lbs? 600? Records of tallest men are near or over 400 lbs.

I fear I'm treading into a Dragaeran from Brust / Toblokai from Erikson area, but I think I've got a good concept. Not a lot of magic to speak of, just brute strength, unmatched reflexes, and exceptional cleverness.

This made me think of the "Predator" movies...

zornhau · Jun 18, 2007

C.bronco said:
If I were you, I'd pick a few of the tallest pro basketball players and use their proportions.
I stood in line at a snack bar amidst a b-ball team once, and though I am short (5'2"), their elbows were above my head.

Too specialised.

Look instead at US Marines, or British paras; soldiers build like brick sh#t houses.

dclary · Jun 18, 2007

Bahamutchild said:
Generally speaking (though we are in the fantasy forum) you can not combine brute strength and unmatched reflexes. All that muscle mass does not allow for super fast movement- it gets in the way.

This is an old wives tale. There's no physiological reason why a muscular person couldn't be as fast or faster, as limber or more limber than a less-muscular person.

[/quote]

Dave.C.Robinson · Jun 18, 2007

I'd go with making them not much bigger than a big human-- 6' to 6'6" at most. As for making them near invincible go with somewhat stronger, much faster and with better endurance and situational awareness. They can then wear heavier armor and still react quickly. Also the ability to fight as well after two hours of combat as at the beginning is going to be a huge advantage. There's more than just size to consider.

Fenika · Jun 18, 2007

If I have time later I'll go googling for a site or two... But common, Fezik vs Inigo Montoya?

Cheers,
Christina

MattW · Jun 18, 2007

dclary said:
This is an old wives tale. There's no physiological reason why a muscular person couldn't be as fast or faster, as limber or more limber than a less-muscular person.

It's a tale told to make puny shrimps think they have a chance

For a comparison, I'd say a grey wolf (70-170 lbs) and a cheetah (90-140lbs) could be of comparable size, but the big cat would be a much more agile creature without giving up much in the way of strength.

It all comes down to evolution (or creation since it's fantasy) of more efficient cardiovascular, skeletal, and central nervous systems.

MattW · Jun 18, 2007

Dave.C.Robinson said:
somewhat stronger, much faster and with better endurance and situational awareness. They can then wear heavier armor and still react quickly.

This will definitely offset some of the danger from missile weapons. But only some.

Also the ability to fight as well after two hours of combat as at the beginning is going to be a huge advantage. There's more than just size to consider.

All else being equal, I think that endurance might be the real leveler - these guys could be only noticeably bigger, but still be a near unstoppable force.

I'm going to have to think this through...

How big?

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