How much money do novels make?

[newshirt]

I get the sense that novels by first-time authors are not (usually) extremely profitable. Until a reader-base is established, widening distribution to profitable levels, novels don't make a lot of money. And, I gather that because agents and editors know this, they cannot invest a lot of time fixing mediocre work.

So on average, how much money does a first-time author's novel make? And, how much of that goes to the agent and author?

--ray

[reenkam]

From what I know about the matter, an advance can vary a lot, depending on what kind of deals the agent gets with editors, how many books are in the deal, and the subject matter of the book. I've read about novel advances under $1000 and those over $100,000 for just the one book. It all goes on a case by case basis. There are first time authors who will get $500,000 four book deals, sometimes. That's a best case scenerio, of course, but it happens. I think it all comes down to whether the editors think that it'll market well or not.

Most agents have 10%-15% fees, meaning that's how much they take from your advance and then from your royalties. I think royalties are 7.5% on paperback and then 10% for the first 5,000 hardcover, 12.5% for the second 5,000 hardcover, and 15% for every book after that. Though you have to earn out your advance before you start making any of the royalties.

[Lyra Jean]

How high up on the best sellers list is the book?

Yeah I know that's not helpful.

[Bo Sullivan]

J K Rowling is a billionaire now, but that is a best case scenario.

[Jamesaritchie]

I get the sense that novels by first-time authors are not (usually) extremely profitable. Until a reader-base is established, widening distribution to profitable levels, novels don't make a lot of money. And, I gather that because agents and editors know this, they cannot invest a lot of time fixing mediocre work.

So on average, how much money does a first-time author's novel make? And, how much of that goes to the agent and author?

--ray

If you mean from a large publisher, the average advance is about $7,500, and this is probably all the novel will earn. Agents get 15% domestic, and 20% foreign.

This goes down dramatically as the size of the publisher shrinks.

First time writers almost never get a better deal unless something special is happening, such as the writer having a famous name, or having a book that coattails another bestselling book.

Darned few first novels earn any money, and publishers do not throw money away lightly.

[Del]

I never understood why a publisher would hand out an exorbitant advance. If the book is going to pay out that much in royalties, a low advance isn't going to cause the author any loss. The money just comes later.

A big advance seems a gamble for the publisher. Why risk it? Are they afraid another publisher will make a better offer? Or is an extra $50,000 just not that big of a percentage within the scheme of publishing costs?

[reenkam]

I never understood why a publisher would hand out an exorbitant advance. If the book is going to pay out that much in royalties, a low advance isn't going to cause the author any loss. The money just comes later.

A big advance seems a gamble for the publisher. Why risk it? Are they afraid another publisher will make a better offer? Or is an extra $50,000 just not that big of a percentage within the scheme of publishing costs?


I think that if there's an auction and a couple editors all one the book then the advance will go up more and more because they'll all wonder why the other editors think the book will do so well, so they'll raise their own. That'll only go so far, of course, but I bet it explains some of the larger advances out there.

[jordijoy]

J K Rowling is a billionaire now, but that is a best case scenario.

A girl can dream, can't she:D . Or hallucinate!

[newshirt]

If you mean from a large publisher, the average advance is about $7,500

So, assuming an 8% royalty, and a $7,500 advance, a first-time novel can make $93,700 gross?

And, assuming a street price of $20 per book, about 4,500 books would be printed?

(Sorry for all the reverse-engineering; I'm just curious about the economics.)

--ray

[kristie911]

This site gives a general idea of advances and profits (for romance publishers only) but it's nice to see the figures and gives some general idea of ranges.

Show me the money (http://www.karenafox.com/money.htm)

[Jamesaritchie]

So, assuming an 8% royalty, and a $7,500 advance, a first-time novel can make $93,700 gross?

And, assuming a street price of $20 per book, about 4,500 books would be printed?

(Sorry for all the reverse-engineering; I'm just curious about the economics.)

--ray

In a sense, there's no such thing as average, and every book is different, as is every publisher. But your numbers are certainly in the ballpark.

[Jamesaritchie]

The thing is, a first novel can make $100,000,000. But this really is a case of never count you money until the books are actually sold. The huge majority of first novels earn the writer no royalties at all, and the advance is all he'll ever see. And the advance will be no larger than the number of sales marketing thinks it will make.

All a writer can do is write the book he wants to write the best way he can write it, run it up the flag pole, and see how many people salute.

[newshirt]

All a writer can do is write the book he wants to write the best way he can write it, run it up the flag pole, and see how many people salute.

Yes, I totally agree. The ecomonics are geared for the professional author with numerous works and wide circulation, as they should be. The first-time writer does it for the thrill, not the money.

[RLB]

I was at the Backspace Conference this month and went to a workshop that simulated an editorial board meeting (where editors pitch books they like to the other editors, marketing reps and publisher and try to get the green light for their project). It was run by Kristin Nelson and Jeff Kleinman. Educational, but somewhat disheartening! I learned that the average print run for a first novel is about 5000. When you divide that number up by all the B&Ns and Borders alone, it's not much.

[jordijoy]

The thing is, a first novel can make $100,000,000. But this really is a case of never count you money until the books are actually sold. The huge majority of first novels earn the writer no royalties at all, and the advance is all he'll ever see. And the advance will be no larger than the number of sales marketing thinks it will make.

All a writer can do is write the book he wants to write the best way he can write it, run it up the flag pole, and see how many people salute.

expertly put!!!!!!!!!!!!

[newshirt]

Educational, but somewhat disheartening! I learned that the average print run for a first novel is about 5000.

Yes disheartening, but the first book is just to get started, not to make money, right?

This is common in other industries as well. I'm a software developer. I can tell you it takes 5 - 10 years to break into this business. Having broken in, I'm set. But, newcomers produce some very bad products, and the industry does not receive them well.

I suppose that's the way of nature. Nature favors discipline.

[Jamesaritchie]

Trust me, that 5,000 print run is plenty, if the novel has legs. I can think of dozens of bestselling novels that began life with a tiny advance and a print run smaller than this.

[Maprilynne]

How much? Not enough.;)

[Don Allen]

I'm kind of surprised that no one mentioned the one aspect of a published novel that can actually pay pretty well, don't foregt the possibility of Hollywood options. More books than you can think of are under option to studios who in many cases have no intention of ever making them into a movie or are so far down the list that the studio will be gone before the movie is made. Sometimes the options are for as little as 10k per year and sometimes as much 250k (rarely) but i know of two decent authors with so-so books that are making very nice incomes with their options, and neither think their stories will ever make it to the screen...

[Jamesaritchie]

I'm kind of surprised that no one mentioned the one aspect of a published novel that can actually pay pretty well, don't foregt the possibility of Hollywood options. More books than you can think of are under option to studios who in many cases have no intention of ever making them into a movie or are so far down the list that the studio will be gone before the movie is made. Sometimes the options are for as little as 10k per year and sometimes as much 250k (rarely) but i know of two decent authors with so-so books that are making very nice incomes with their options, and neither think their stories will ever make it to the screen...

Options for not famous books are usually pitifully small. 10K isn't the low for an option, it close to the high for an average novel that isn't on the bestselling list. Most options run around $1,500-3,000.

And maybe one novel in five hundred is ever optioned at all.

[Will Lavender]

Foreign rights have been important for me. I didn't know a thing about them before my novel was sold, and now the foreign sales are a big part of why I'm going to be able to stay home and write next year.

[gem1122]

I have no misconceptions about the reality of how much (or how little) my books may make. Seeing them in print, and making a few bucks, and knowing that people enjoy them -- these are my goals. I have no grand illusion that I'll ever make enough to fully support myself and my family from my writing.

That way, if things ever work out better than this, I'll be pleasantly surprised. ;)

There's a great part of Jen Trynin's Everything I'm Cracked Up to Be where the singer/songwriter explains how the financial part of the music business works. She spends several pages breaking down how albums are marketed and sold, and who (lots of people!) gets paid and how much. It's painfully exact and honest, and I suppose it could easily be applied to the book industry as well.

[Jamesaritchie]

Foreign rights have been important for me. I didn't know a thing about them before my novel was sold, and now the foreign sales are a big part of why I'm going to be able to stay home and write next year.

That's a good point.

[Anthony Ravenscroft]

How about this scenario, only somewhat exaggerated from normal reality.

Your book gets sold to a house. Their marketing people go great guns, & sell 1,000 copies to each&every B&N and Borders and Hastings and Books-A-Million under the sun, plus 5,000 copies to every Wal-Mart, Sam's, & Costco. Your publisher is ecstatic, takes all these advance orders, & not only prods them to order more but gets all sorts of orders from mid-tier outlets.

The house gives you $15 million. Your book rockets to the top of every list. Your next book is rushed into editing & you get pressure for #3.

Three weeks after it's released, 95% of the chain-store copies are pulled & returned. From the big-box stores, it's 98%.

If you didn't read your contract properly, you not only give up the advance on the returns but have to pay for their disposal. Then again, your agent made 20% & has no intention of giving that back to you. Your literary career is a giant smoking crater about the size of Hudson's Bay.

And you're far more likely to have this experience than that of, say, Rowling or King or Robb or Koontz or....

[Irysangel]

How about this scenario, only somewhat exaggerated from normal reality.

Your book gets sold to a house. Their marketing people go great guns, & sell 1,000 copies to each&every B&N and Borders and Hastings and Books-A-Million under the sun, plus 5,000 copies to every Wal-Mart, Sam's, & Costco. Your publisher is ecstatic, takes all these advance orders, & not only prods them to order more but gets all sorts of orders from mid-tier outlets.

The house gives you $15 million. Your book rockets to the top of every list. Your next book is rushed into editing & you get pressure for #3.

Three weeks after it's released, 95% of the chain-store copies are pulled & returned. From the big-box stores, it's 98%.

If you didn't read your contract properly, you not only give up the advance on the returns but have to pay for their disposal. Then again, your agent made 20% & has no intention of giving that back to you. Your literary career is a giant smoking crater about the size of Hudson's Bay.

And you're far more likely to have this experience than that of, say, Rowling or King or Robb or Koontz or....


Are you speaking from experience? I can't reallly think of any reason a heavily-hyped book would be dragged off the shelves only 3 weeks after its release, unless it belonged to Kaavya Viswanathan.

[Jamesaritchie]

How about this scenario, only somewhat exaggerated from normal reality.

Your book gets sold to a house. Their marketing people go great guns, & sell 1,000 copies to each&every B&N and Borders and Hastings and Books-A-Million under the sun, plus 5,000 copies to every Wal-Mart, Sam's, & Costco. Your publisher is ecstatic, takes all these advance orders, & not only prods them to order more but gets all sorts of orders from mid-tier outlets.

The house gives you $15 million. Your book rockets to the top of every list. Your next book is rushed into editing & you get pressure for #3.

Three weeks after it's released, 95% of the chain-store copies are pulled & returned. From the big-box stores, it's 98%.

If you didn't read your contract properly, you not only give up the advance on the returns but have to pay for their disposal. Then again, your agent made 20% & has no intention of giving that back to you. Your literary career is a giant smoking crater about the size of Hudson's Bay.

And you're far more likely to have this experience than that of, say, Rowling or King or Robb or Koontz or....

That scenario has never happened, and never will happen. Not one piece of it is anything like realistic. It isn't just exaggerated a million times over, it's pure fantasy.

[dantem42]

Your book gets sold to a house. Their marketing people go great guns, & sell 1,000 copies to each&every B&N and Borders and Hastings and Books-A-Million under the sun, plus 5,000 copies to every Wal-Mart, Sam's, & Costco. Your publisher is ecstatic, takes all these advance orders, & not only prods them to order more but gets all sorts of orders from mid-tier outlets.

------------------

If you didn't read your contract properly, you not only give up the advance on the returns but have to pay for their disposal. Then again, your agent made 20% & has no intention of giving that back to you. Your literary career is a giant smoking crater about the size of Hudson's Bay.

And you're far more likely to have this experience than that of, say, Rowling or King or Robb or Koontz or....


Hmm. I have my doubts. I think they're both equally as likely as the sun turning into a black hole this week and gobbling up the earth.

No publishing marketers, no matter how savvy, are gong to get the Borders and B&N's of the world to overstock in that manner. Everything else in the place would have to be tied to it -- window displays, floor displays and whatnot. It's just not gonna happen unless you've got color glossies of the store managers in flagrante delicto with barnyard animals.

And my redoubtable agent has told me -- only an agent with a brain hernia would allow a contract where the advance was subject to return in any way, shape or form, or where the writer was subject to any other costs of the publication process.

[aruna]

I never understood why a publisher would hand out an exorbitant advance. If the book is going to pay out that much in royalties, a low advance isn't going to cause the author any loss. The money just comes later.




The thing is, royalties only start coming in much later, maybe three years after the book has been acquired. A publisher of a promising first novel probably wants that writer to keep writing, which is only possible if he/she can buy time. It's hard to write if you've got money worries. So I understand a big advance as a way of keeping the writer's head above water financially in order for him/her to write books 2 and 3.

Also, a large advance helps to create media buzz. It then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy,. It shows the media that the publisher believes in the book.

I never knew that big publishers in the US pay only $7500 advance. It seems to me that in the UK it is much, much more for a promising first novel. How are you supposed to keep going on $7500 minus agents fees, minus tax?

[aruna]

Foreign rights have been important for me. I didn't know a thing about them before my novel was sold, and now the foreign sales are a big part of why I'm going to be able to stay home and write next year.


For me too. Royalties from foreign sales have kept me going long after the British advances ran out.

[Toni1953]

But there are some first-timers who did get excellent advances, and I believe they even post on this forum. it can happen.

[jchines]

Tobias Buckell did a great survey for first-time novel advances in SF/F. The median advance came out to $5000 ($6000 with adjustments for inflation.)

You can see that survey at http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2005/10/05/author-advance-survey-version-20/

For me, domestic and foreign advance money put my first novel up to around $10,000. Not enough for me to quit my day job, especially after my agent's commission and taxes, but I'm not going to complain, either.

[AndreaGS]

What a great thread! I've been rather ignorant on the subject; for some reason I thought the most I could ever expect as an advance was $2,000. I expect to keep a day job for a while, so some of these numbers are really encouraging.