Advice to a friend

Diviner · Jun 16, 2007

I have a friend who wants to quit an increasingly unsatisfactory day job to write full time. She doesn't go to chat rooms much, so I thought I'd pose her question here and direct her to your answers.

First of all, she is very talented. Her short pieces have verve and style and beautiful language. They are funny, edgy and literary. She has not, to my knowledge, written a novel. I told her that I understood that the market for short stories is small. I did not want to discourage her too much, but I think she needs to be realistic.

What can you add to this?

Sean D. Schaffer · Jun 16, 2007

Diviner said:
I have a friend who wants to quit an increasingly unsatisfactory day job to write full time. She doesn't go to chat rooms much, so I thought I'd pose her question here and direct her to your answers.

First of all, she is very talented. Her short pieces have verve and style and beautiful language. They are funny, edgy and literary. She has not, to my knowledge, written a novel. I told her that I understood that the market for short stories is small. I did not want to discourage her too much, but I think she needs to be realistic.

What can you add to this?

I would point out that, at least in the case of novels, the time it takes to get published could be a major hindrance to getting enough of an income going to live on. I've heard it can take years to get a novel accepted, and then more years before the book actually comes out. Further, if their first novel does not pan out, they'll have a harder time selling a second or a third. Having a second job would be at least beneficial if your friend has no other form of income to supplement their writing.

I hope this helps. I wish your friend the very best with her writing.

JoNightshade · Jun 16, 2007

If she has another source of income, such as a husband (I love mine!), and he is okay with it, then I say fine. No alternate source of income? Bad idea. Short stories are hard to publish, and most of the markets available pay little to nothing. I wrote tons and tons of short stories for years and was able to place only a fraction of what I wrote. I would go so far as to say that there is no way that you can make a living off of short stories. And even if she did write a great novel, odds are that she wouldn't be getting enough to live on for the first one. My creative writing teacher used to joke about this, since she wrote and sold a novel: she said it didn't even begin to pay the bills.

James D. Macdonald · Jun 16, 2007

She should quit the day job after writing is bringing in enough to live on.

johnzakour · Jun 16, 2007

The most important asset to any new writer who wants to write full time is a spouse or significant other that has a really good job (or sourse of income) and is able to support them.

Without this she shouldn't quit the day job. After 6 years of writing full time I am finally starting to make the same kind of money I did as a web guy.

job · Jun 16, 2007

Relatively few people make enough money writing to live on it.
However ... some do.
I wish your friend all the luck in the world.

Realistically, it will probably take your buddy several years to bring in any kind of significant income. She has to eat regularly in the meantime. Best to factor that into her planning.

But quitting an unsatisfactory job is a good life move no matter what you do next.

Ziljon · Jun 16, 2007

I suggest she try to write her book at night, after work instead of watching TV or reading or socializing. If she eats an early dinner, right after getting home, then puts the kids to bed (if she has any) she should have at least three hours a night. If she can write a novel like that, eventually she may be able to quite her day job.

It works.

Jamesaritchie · Jun 16, 2007

Job

It all depends on her. If she would have no problem finding another job, then quit this one and start writing. I think whether to quit a job and take a chance on writing depends entirely on how easy that job is to replace. When I quit my day job I knew I could find a dozen more just like it by walking down the street. So just how much is she really giving up, and how easily can it be replaced?

And there are always part time jobs to help with the budget.

maestrowork · Jun 16, 2007

I admire her passion and dedication, and the realization that being in a dead-end or unsatisfying job is not where she wants to be. However, I do hope she has financial support somewhere or at least save enough money to support herself. If she thinks she can make enough money writing full-time right off the bat, she may be very disappointed and end up in a very tricky situation, unless she has financial support (spouse, family, etc.)

I've been at this writing thing for a couple of years now and I still haven't made enough to live on my writing... I make my money mostly from other sources (consulting, investments, etc.).

It's great to try to reach for the stars, but make sure you have your feet firmly on the ground.

WordGypsy · Jun 16, 2007

If she hates her job she should quit, regardless of whether she's writing or not. Have her think of a job she loved doing and go back to it. She can work part time doing something she loves and still have a lot of time to write.

Wish her the best for me!

Gillhoughly · Jun 16, 2007

Same vote here. She won't like the answers, but that's how it is. You suck up and deal with how publishing works or prep yourself to not eating regular and worse.

She needs to find a different day job or have a spouse agree to carry the financial load until she is self-supportive as a writer. This means squeezing pennies until they scream, and it is NOT fun.

With any luck she will get there in about 18 years or so. I'm a pretty talented pro, but still can't support myself with it, so I have my day job.

Writing is notorious for low pay and no benefits. Self-employed writers have no insurance, golden parachutes, and tend to live on Ramen noodles and the charity of dinners out with understanding friends.

Or they mooch off their parents. Ugh.

My best friend is a highly successful mid-lister who sell 3-5 novels a year and has a pending TV series deal.

She still has her day job. She needs the benefits and money to fill in the gaps her book checks can't cover.

Before the hugely popular Bob Asprin quit his day job to write full time he made sure he'd paid off ALL his credit cards, cut up all but one for emergencies and paid off his house and car. With only taxes and monthly bills to deal with, he was just able to do the dream.

JoNightshade · Jun 16, 2007

I agree with others who say at least quit the horror job and find something else. I suspect that your friend is just hating her life so much right now that she's becoming a bit delusional and grasping at straws-- ANYTHING, so long as it gets her out of that job! Been there, done that.

Shady Lane · Jun 16, 2007

Or they mooch off their parents. Ugh.

*dance*

WordGypsy · Jun 16, 2007

Can't wait until the day where my parents mooch off me

Old Hack · Jun 16, 2007

If she wants to write, is talented, and doesn't mind what, it's relatively easy to place non-fic artices. She'll need to spend a year or so building up a portfolio of clippings, and making contacts, but after that she should be able to eke out a living writing that way. I used to earn £350 or so per thousand words, and would get a couple a week.

ETA: But I did write about ANYTHING, and it was often scary!

Michael Dracon · Jun 16, 2007

I've seen people mention their advance here of what they got when selling their novel. Some of the amounts mentioned were less than my current monthly salary, and I get payed just enough to sustain a home with a single bedroom.

An advance is a one-time thing. The only was to get more from that same novel is if it sell really well. So you have to sell 12 novels (Note: novels, not short stories) per year to be able to sustain yourself.

johnzakour · Jun 16, 2007

Michael Dracon said:
An advance is a one-time thing. The only was to get more from that same novel is if it sell really well. So you have to sell 12 novels (Note: novels, not short stories) per year to be able to sustain yourself.

Ah, 12 novels a year is a lot.

I can't think of many writers who do 12 novels a year, I don't think even Stephen King does that many!

Obviously a fair number of writers support themselves fine without writing a novel a month.

You tend to make money with each novel as not only do the advances get bigger but the sales off all previous books also trend upwards when a new book comes out. Plus, novels can generate income multiple times as they sell to different countries. Plus, you can also sell movie and other media rights for more income. (Though this is rare it does happen.)

So you don't need 12 a year. My goal is always to sell 4 big projects (novels, comic books, movies) a year.

I wish I could write 12 though!

AdamH · Jun 16, 2007

Diviner said:
I have a friend who wants to quit an increasingly unsatisfactory day job to write full time. She doesn't go to chat rooms much, so I thought I'd pose her question here and direct her to your answers.

First of all, she is very talented. Her short pieces have verve and style and beautiful language. They are funny, edgy and literary. She has not, to my knowledge, written a novel. I told her that I understood that the market for short stories is small. I did not want to discourage her too much, but I think she needs to be realistic.

What can you add to this?

That's great that she's so passionate about her craft. Most of the advice I can offer has already been said.

I understand her drive to leave her awful life-draining job to focus on writing. I left a job just like that recently because I found that, despite my best efforts to keep them separate, my job was starting to leak into my outside life and bogging down my creativity. So now I've got another job to support my writing addiction. It's a better atmosphere. It pays the daily bills. And I'm earning a little on the side because now I can focus on writing more seriously (though I find it fun enough I'd do it for free).

Bottom line, if she can find a way to support herself writing then do it. If not, encourage her to find a healthier workplace that can feed her creativity with the hopes that someday she'll earn enough to strike out on her own.

I wish the best of luck to her!

Jamesaritchie · Jun 16, 2007

Michael Dracon said:
I've seen people mention their advance here of what they got when selling their novel. Some of the amounts mentioned were less than my current monthly salary, and I get payed just enough to sustain a home with a single bedroom.

An advance is a one-time thing. The only was to get more from that same novel is if it sell really well. So you have to sell 12 novels (Note: novels, not short stories) per year to be able to sustain yourself.

If you can see two novels per year to a publisher of any real size, you're probably going to be making a fair amount of money, else they won't continue to buy novels from you. But a novel doesn't have to sell really well to earn out the advance. Just average sales should be enough to pay off the advance, and then the royalties begin.

Selling twelve novels per year is probably not possible outside the romance genre, but if you can, you should be doing considerably more than sustaining yourself.

At any rate, if you can't earn a living selling a heck of a lot fewer than twelve novels per year, you're in the wrong business.

JanDarby · Jun 16, 2007

It's already been alluded to, but not perhaps as bluntly as this: As a general rule, going through the time-consuming agent-acquisition and then editor-acquisition process, and then receiving the advance, your friend is probably looking at TWO TO THREE YEARS, minimum, from the date a novel is FINISHED until she sees any cash in hand. And even then, it's unlikely to be enough to live on while she waits for the next advance/royalties. And figure a year or more to write the novel itself, before it can be queried/acquired.

So, she needs to ask herself if she has three to five years' worth of living expenses saved up and in the bank. In figuring the living expenses, be sure to include health insurance and any other work perks that she needs and won't be getting without the job. The total monthly nut, multiplied by thirty-six (or sixty), is likely to be pretty scary, and if she still thinks it's worth quitting and writing full-time, then maybe it is.

JD

Jamesaritchie · Jun 16, 2007

JanDarby said:
It's already been alluded to, but not perhaps as bluntly as this: As a general rule, going through the time-consuming agent-acquisition and then editor-acquisition process, and then receiving the advance, your friend is probably looking at TWO TO THREE YEARS, minimum, from the date a novel is FINISHED until she sees any cash in hand. And even then, it's unlikely to be enough to live on while she waits for the next advance/royalties. And figure a year or more to write the novel itself, before it can be queried/acquired.

So, she needs to ask herself if she has three to five years' worth of living expenses saved up and in the bank. In figuring the living expenses, be sure to include health insurance and any other work perks that she needs and won't be getting without the job. The total monthly nut, multiplied by thirty-six (or sixty), is likely to be pretty scary, and if she still thinks it's worth quitting and writing full-time, then maybe it is.

JD

But it's also a matter of what perks she has now. Maybe the current job isn't so great. Maybe it's easily replaced. If a person had to wait until they had three to five years living expenses in the bank, I doubt there would be very many full-time writers.

And quitting one job never means you can't get another. Six months living expenses I could understand, but three to five years is being far too cautious. It makes writing full-time almost impossible.

I'd say 98% of the full-time writers I know couldn't come close to meeting this minimum.

Michael Dracon · Jun 17, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
If you can see two novels per year to a publisher of any real size, you're probably going to be making a fair amount of money, else they won't continue to buy novels from you. But a novel doesn't have to sell really well to earn out the advance. Just average sales should be enough to pay off the advance, and then the royalties begin.

Selling twelve novels per year is probably not possible outside the romance genre, but if you can, you should be doing considerably more than sustaining yourself.

At any rate, if you can't earn a living selling a heck of a lot fewer than twelve novels per year, you're in the wrong business.

Still, I think you have to be a Stephen King or a Jim Butcher to be able to make enough money to sustain yourself.

It's very hard thing to do. While it is nice to aim for self-sustainable writing, I do think you should not take for it granted as something that will automatically happen when you start writing.

First things first: Try to write the first novel. Then try to sell it. Then see how well that goes and how well subsequent books will sell. By then you'll be a year or maybe even a couple of years into the future already.

job · Jun 17, 2007

>> I think you have to be a Stephen King or a Jim Butcher to be able to make enough money to sustain yourself. <<<

Not quite. I know a fair number of freelance writers who keep food on the table and a roof overhead solely by writing. The ones I know write historical, edgy thriller, and genre Romance.

Then there's freelance non-fiction, which is a great training ground and has stirred many soup pots for those writing that novel on the side. Someone pointed this out earlier in the thread.

There are also many who delve and toil for newspapers or who write non-fiction, on salary, for private companies and the government.

But you are wholly correct in this -- most writers are going to work part- or full- time for years.

That being the case,
and if there's any choice in the matter,
it's good to pick a job that sustains and expands your being, rather than spending 20 years flipping burgers,
(with apologies to all those who flip.)

So the first step in writing a novel may well be finding a great day job.

JanDarby · Jun 17, 2007

three to five years is being far too cautious

I'm a lawyer. It's my job to be too cautious.

Plus, a lot of people have no clue about the timeframe, and expect they can write the novel, sell it to an editor and have it on the shelves, with advance in hand and royalties due to roll in any day now, within a year. Not gonna happen, and it helps to be prepared for the real timeframe. Take time off, with the expectation of going back to work in six months. Quit, but start up a freelance career to get some cash flow. Quit and get a part-time job for some cash flow. Or whatever. Plus, it helps to know exactly what expenses will need to be covered, what freelance markets pay (if that's part of the plan), whether it's possible for a given writer to do freelance work or part-time work or even full-time work while still getting the novel written, etc.

I just know it was sobering for me, when I first learned about the industry, that it would be 3 years before I had any real chance of seeing even subsistence type of money coming in from fiction. And it turned out much longer than that for me.

JD

WordGypsy · Jun 17, 2007

I guess it all depends on how long she takes to write the book. Some people only take a few weeks. Me, I'm glorious if I can finish the damn thing in a 6 month to year period from idea to finishing the book. That doesn't count editting. Everyone is different. All it comes down to is that it's her choice. If she can get two months of expenses paid then she can promise herself one month off. If all else fails she has a month to find a job before the fear sets in. And she's also shed that life force sucking day job. A month is a good amount of time to figure out if she can do this as a career. (and by that I mean writing the words, not being able to get them published sadly...) She might have built up a wonderful fantasy of this "writing life" she wants so badly. Writing every day for at least 8 hours and treating it as a job might be what she needs to face the face that it's just that...a job. It's HARD!

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