query an agent or publisher first

[Rhush]

Im getting confused as a first time novelist as to which poses a better chance for a previously unpublished writer. Like the old saying goes...you cant get published without an agent, but you cant get an agent until your published. Is this true? Which is the better avenue to persue?

[Vomaxx]

Many publishers just won't accept "unagented" submissions. Some do, but of course if you query them and they say no, you have eliminated them as someone your agent can contact. Standard wisdom is to query agents first.

[James D Macdonald]

...you cant get published without an agent, but you cant get an agent until your published. Is this true?

No, it isn't true.

You can't get published without a good book.

The easiest way to get an agent is to have an offer already in hand from a publisher.

Many people query agents at the same time they're sending the manuscript around to legitimate publishers.

Here's another thing to remember: A book that is publishable by one is publishable by many. If you get the agent before you find a publisher, don't worry about the agent not being able to submit there. The agent will be going to the "no unagented" places first.

Meanwhile, work on your skills. When you finish your first book, while you're sending it around, start your second. Then your third. (Your first book may not be publishable anyway -- I know mine wasn't -- and nothing I can do will fix it.)

[pencilone]

In support to the above answers, here is a link to a page that I have only found yesterday:
Orson Scott Card Writing Classes (http://www.hatrack.com/writingclass/lessons/1999-01-29.shtml)

"Question
Do I need an agent?

-- Submitted by Anonymous


OSC Replies:
Depends on the field you're writing in. If you're writing sf or fantasy, an agent is not needed at first. In fact, the kind of agent you can get before your first offer from a publisher is not the kind of agent you want afterward, as a general rule. So for sf and fantasy, you create a query package:

1. "The Partial": The first two or three chapters, or however many it takes to create a package of about thirty or forty pages. This shows that you know how to write and that the novel begins well (and believe me, that's the place where all impossible novels fail).

2. "The Outline": A present-tense synopsis, with no scenes or dialogue, of the remainder of the story, starting immediately after the end of the partial and going completely to the end of the ms. This shows that you know the whole story and that it's a good one.

3. "The Query Letter": This letter goes on top of the partial and outline, and it contains the following: "Enclosed are the first [X] chapters and a synopsis of my [hard sf/heroic fantasy/etc.] novel [Title of Manuscript]. Would you like to see the complete manuscript?" Nothing more needs to be said, unless you have sold a story or two to a professional magazine. If you have not sold any stories within the genre to a professional publication, then say nothing at all about your credentials or experience as a writer. They will want to get acquainted with you after the sale, not before reading the manuscript. You don't have to tell them you're new -- they know they've never heard of you.

Send this query package to all the sf publishers or fantasy publishers. Because it's a query -- i.e., you're not offering the book for sale, you're inquiring as to whether they want to see the whole manuscript -- you can query all of them at once. When the first one writes back asking to see the whole thing, wait for another week or two before sending it. If they phone, then they're eager -- so you send it. Otherwise, you wait to see if another publisher that you prefer asks to see it. Because when you send the complete manuscript, you send it to only one publisher at a time. Period. You never violate this rule without informing both publishers, and you can only do that when you're an established author and your agent is preparing for an auction.

When you get a contract offer -- the actual paper is sitting in front of you -- then you need an agent. Don't sign the contract. All contracts ask for rights that you and your agent can hold onto and exploit much better than the publisher can. The agent will certainly not be able to get you more money for your first novel, or a higher royalty rate. Forget what you've heard about those miraculous million-dollar first sales. What your new agent can do is hold onto your foreign and film rights and then work hard at selling the foreign rights. Half my income comes from foreign sales of my work.

How do you get an agent? Send a query letter to a whole bunch of reputable agents saying, "[Publisher X] has just offered me a contract for my first [science fiction/fantasy/etc.] novel, [Title]. I feel that I need representation. Would you like to see my manuscript?"

Again, this is a query, not a proposal. At this point, since you have already made the first sale, it is not at all unfair for you to insist on 10 percent commission, period, even though almost all agents claim 15% these days. Since that 15% is supposed to defray the costs of looking at the slushpile, and your ms. is already sold, you are in a very strong position to ask for this. See what their reaction is. You may end up going with a fifteen-percenter, or settling for 12% -- but you'll find out right away which agents regard you as their employee, or think they're going to be your manager, or are angry, testy people that you don't want to work with. Think of it this way: By seeing how they negotiate with you, you'll see how they negotiate with publishers -- their style, etc. Bully? Whiner? Liar? Or honest, forthright laying out of positions?

If you're in another genre, however, then those query packages have to go to agents, not publishers, and you have no hope of anything but 15%. When you sign with an agency, do not agree to a fixed term or a contract that does not specify a means of ending a relationship immediately upon notification. If you dismiss your agent, they are entitled to continue to collect their percentage on any contracts they negotiated; but there should be no nonsense of being stuck with an agent that you're not happy with. If you're not getting good representation, you should not have to endure it for one minute longer; if you are getting good representation, there is no reason to have a fixed term on a relationship that clearly will last for years. In every case, you are the sole determiner of whether you like the representation you are getting. And if you do find yourself deciding on a fixed term, make it for no longer than one year. This is essential. I have spent too much time helping too many writers get out of bad agency relationships; it is better to have no agent than a bad one. "

[Robin Grantham]

Interesting thread. Reading here (and on other threads as well) is making me rethink my whole approach.

To support this further (the notion that you can't get the agent you want without a contract), I'd add that a prominent agent was very honest in responding to my query. He said, "At the present time we're doing very little fiction and not really looking to add clients in this area unless they already have a track record. Good luck. Your query letter is well done and I'm sure you'll get many more favorable responses." That didn't quite turn out to be the case (and maybe he was just blowing sunshine where the sun shouldn't shine), but at least it gave me some idea of the state of things.

Anyhow, thanks for the information. It's nice to have a lot of opinions from which to draw.

[Rhush]

Thanks for the detailed answers! :hat

[nightrider27]

I am one of the rookies so weigh my input. In trying to make the same decision, I chose to go the way of agents. I have also made my queries to one agent at a time offering exclusive rights which was suggested in some of my research but by no means all. It has been a slow process with each response taking 3 to 6 weeks. I started searching last year in Jan and (at least) 8 rejections later at the end of Dec I had a request for the first 50 pages with some very nice comments.
I purchased the book "Writers Market" and searched the Internet sights (Predators and Editors was very helpful and informative). So much info I probably forgot most but did write a book of info on sticky notes. Just be prepared for some frustration but remember the stories of success we hear about.
For me, I started the next book/sequel. It actually helped me to keep my mind off of the wait and I completed the 9th chapter of the sequel last week.

Good luck,
Phil

[vstrauss]

>>OSC Replies:
Depends on the field you're writing in. If you're writing sf or fantasy, an agent is not needed at first. In fact, the kind of agent you can get before your first offer from a publisher is not the kind of agent you want afterward, as a general rule.<<

I strongly disagree. You'll often find older writers saying something like this. It reflects their own experience several decades ago when they were starting out, when the publishing industry was really very different from the way it is now, and it was the done thing to submit directly to publishers. When I was sending round my first novel, in the 1970's, it never occurred to me to look for an agent, and I was able to get a real reading from an editor at nearly every publisher I approached.

It ain't like that any more, folks, at least if you're thinking of approaching the major publishing houses with a work of adult fiction. Many fiction imprints simply won't consider unagented submissions at all (this is true in SF/fantasy too: Aspect doesn't accept unagented manuscripts, and I know there are a couple of others). Those that do accept unagented work give it very low priority. It may take them a tremendously long time to look at the submission (I've heard from people who've been waiting two years and longer to hear back from Tor and Baen), and when they do it probably won't be a careful reading by an editor but a glance at the first few pages by an assistant or an intern, or a group read at a slush party. Books do get plucked from the slushpile, and editors like to proclaim this--but the truth is that it doesn't happen very often. The vast majority of sales to large houses--for new writers as well as established ones--are agented sales.

Given the timeframes involved in hearing back from a publisher, I think a writer's time is much better spent seeking a (reputable, successful) agent. It can take as long to find an agent as a publisher, but once you do the agent can cut publisher response time way down and get your work onto the desk of an editor who will pay real attention to it. It absolutely is not true, as Mr. Card implies, that as an unpublished writer you can only get a marginal or incompetent agent; I know many writers who've landed good agents without publishing first. Publishing credits give you a leg up, certainly, but if you haven't published before it won't count against you if you have a marketable work that the agent thinks he can sell.

Exceptions: if you're marketing nonfiction, romance, or children's books you have a somewhat better chance without an agent, because editors in these areas are more willing to consider unagented authors. Also, if you're interested in submitting to smaller publishers, an agent isn't needed: most independent publishers are willing to deal direct with authors. But for sending adult fiction to the larger houses, my advice is to look for an agent first.

- Victoria

[Robin Grantham]

The plot thickens.

Thanks for your input, Victoria.

I think I'll just write a bunch of books and let my children try to sell them when I'm dead. :lol

[pianoman5]

I think I'll just write a bunch of books and let my children try to sell them when I'm dead.

Ha! Great twist, Robin. I had an idea for a story about a man who decides to test his greedy, grasping children by hinting that he was going to leave them a legacy of debts, but yours is much more spiteful - putting them through a long-drawn-out, depressing process that may never deliver a single dollar. :evil

[katdad]

It's definitely harder for a new, unpublished writer to get that first sale, but it's not impossible.

It's also not a problem to search for a publisher and an agent at the same time. Just send out queries that are slightly different. Of course if a publisher or agent asks to see the complete novel, then you must observe proper exclusivity decorum and not query anyone else until you hear yes/no.

It is of course harder to find a publisher directly than an agent, because there are fewer publishers and even fewer of them accept unagented material.

It took me about a year of steady effort to find an agent during 2004. Now I'm hoping that 2005 will be the year in which the books get sold.

And let me please tweak you a bit on your grammar and spelling. You said

"until your published" and it's actually "until you're published".

If your query or your novel contain similar errors, you may wait a long time to find a publisher or agent. Your submissions should be as nearly perfect mechanically and grammatically as possible.

[katdad]

I have also made my queries to one agent at a time
You're killing yourself here. Nobody really does individual queries, because it would take forever. It's okay to send out multiple initial "feeler" query letters.

Many agencies say "no multiple" and we nudge, nudge, wink wink at that. What they really mean is that they don't want to be spending time evaluating your book while someone else is doing the same. But their answering a simple opening query takes no significant time. So go ahead and send out multiple initial queries.

However, as soon as an agency takes an interest in your book by following up and asking for more material (first 50 pages, etc.) then I strongly recommend holding off on other queries until you hear from them.

And if someone asks for the complete book, absolutely stop sending out other queries.

[Robin Grantham]

Wow, that does sound cruel.

I just thought it might be easier to sell them when I'm dead. :b

After reading your post, though, maybe I'll riddle them with errors and leave them to . . . never mind, I don't dislike anyone that much.

It would make a good story, though. The greedy son steals the MS right after the parent writes it -- with hopes of publishing it himself after the parent dies. He then gets impatient and kills the parent after a few years -- only to find himself immersed in the horrible drawn-out publishing process. Trying to get the thing published ends up taking so long that he eventually finds that the MS has become outdated and worthless. The twist being, of course, the possibility that if he had let the parent sell it earlier, he might have gotten something out of the deal . . . .

[maestrowork]

However, as soon as an agency takes an interest in your book by following up and asking for more material (first 50 pages, etc.) then I strongly recommend holding off on other queries until you hear from them.

And if someone asks for the complete book, absolutely stop sending out other queries.

Hmmm... I'd say only if they ask for exclusive read or "no simultaneous submission." Otherwise, just tell them someone else is also reading the ms.

[Jamesaritchie]

Getting an offer first used to be great advice, but I think it's now horribly outdated.

Of the writers I've known over the last ten years who landed good agents, all but one did so without an offer in hand from a publisher.

Very few top publishers will even think about taking an unagented writer on. Most won't even read queries. If you have a good novel, you can find a good agent, a top agent, much easier than you can find a good publisher willing to read the novel.

As for getting a good agent, you first need a good novel, and a good query letter.

But I do not believe in nod, nod, wink, wink when it comes to sending out queries. The best and quickest way to get a top agent is not to send out simultaneous submissions, it's to do your homework and find the agent who wants you as much as you want her first time out.

[mr mistook]

Where do you begin this homework to find the best agent? that's the part I'm all foggy about. What are the steps involved in finding these names and addresses of top notch agents to send the queries?

My second thought about this is that if - once upon a time - writers sent queries dircectly to publishers, but now they send to agents, does this mean that in 10 years we'll all have to send queries to agent-finding agents?

In 30 years will we have to find agent-finding-finding agents to find the agent finders who find the agents who find the publishers?

[ElizabethJames]

It already feels like thirty years from now to us.

:(

[michelle217]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Where do you begin this homework to find the best agent? that's the part I'm all foggy about. What are the steps involved in finding these names and addresses of top notch agents to send the queries?
<hr></blockquote>

I always recommend <a href="http://www.writersmarket.com/index_s.asp" target="_new">writersmarket.com</a> to anyone looking for an agent the first time. It costs, but it's worth it. You can do a search for agents representing certain genres, etc. I compiled a list, thoroughly read everyone's agency website, and sorted out those who accept e-queries to snail mail. There's also tons of info to read about agents, query letter writing, and everything else about publishing you ever wanted to know (but were afraid to ask -- lol).

And it is possible to get a great agent without having a publishing history. I didn't even have a short story credit, but I did do a huge amount of research before starting to query anybody. Good luck! <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" />

[vstrauss]

One of the things that gave so much power to agents was the consolidation of the publishing industry during the 1980's and 1990's. Thirty years ago most publishers were what nowadays we'd call independents. But in the 1980's publishers began to be bought up by corporations looking for a media investment, and consolidated into single companies. Most of what are now imprints of the so-called Big 5 were once separate publishers.

One of the results of consolidation was staff cuts, an enormous reduction in the number of editors. At the same time, the volume of published books continued to grow--I can't remember exact figures, but I think the number of books being published now is something like double that being published 30 years ago. Editors, who are now burdened with administrative as well as editing duties, simply don't have time anymore to go through their slush piles (which also have grown enormously--the rise of the computer, I think, is at least partly to blame, because it makes it so easy to produce a manuscript) and therefore have come to rely on agents as gatekeepers, a sort of pre-screening of the slush.

The above is a huge oversimplification, of course, but you get the basic idea.

As I mentioned above, when I was shopping my first novel I never even thought about getting an agent--back then it just wasn't what you did as a first-time writer. There were also far, far fewer agents than there are today. The large number of working agents nowadays is a direct result of consolidation. Interestingly, consolidation (together with the huge--and to my mind inexplicable--rise in the number people who want to be writers) is also responsible for the explosion of scam and incompetent agents. Even 20 years ago, agent scams were relatively uncommon. Once agents became important for newcomers, that changed. Where desire is high and the gate is closely guarded, there's a prime opportunity for scammery.

I don't know what will happen in the future, but I don't see another layer of middlemen coming into it. What I hope will happen is that there will be a decrease in the number of books being published.

How to find good agents? Some suggestions:

- A good PRINT market guide such as Jeff Herman's Writer's Guide, which provides info on agents' interests, specialties, and recent sales. I don’t recommend most agent listings you can find on the Internet; they’re too likely to be out of date and to include disreputable agents. The print guides aren't perfect either, unfortunately, so you need to do additional research on any agent you select.

- Pick books you think are similar to yours (not just in genre, but in subject matter, style, tone, etc.) and try to find out who agents them. This can be as simple as looking through the book’s acknowledgements--authors often mention their agents by name. Or a websearch on the author's name or the name of the book may bring up the author's website or news articles in which the author's agent is mentioned.

- Read industry publications. Recent book deals are mentioned in Publishers Weekly (subscriptions are expensive but you can find it at the library), and Publishers Lunch, a daily e-newsletter, has a weekly edition that lists all kinds of recent sales. If you write genre fiction, there may be magazines that cover the field--for SF/fantasy/horror writers, for instance, there's Locus, which reports monthly on who's sold what to whom.

- Many publishers have "rights" sections on their websites that list recent and forthcoming books along with their agents. This is a super way to find out who's selling what. Here's a list:

* Alfred A. Knopf (www.randomhouse.com/knopf/subrights/) (http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/subrights/))
* Bantam Dell (www.randomhouse.com/banta...ming.html) (http://www.randomhouse.com/bantamdell/rights/forthcoming.html))
* Perseus Book Group (www.perseusbooksgroup.com/rights/) (http://www.perseusbooksgroup.com/rights/))
* St. Martins Press (www.stmartins.com/smp/rtsindex.html) (http://www.stmartins.com/smp/rtsindex.html))
* Harcourt Brace (www.harcourtbooks.com/con...ights.asp) (http://www.harcourtbooks.com/contact_us/subsidiary_rights.asp))
* Henry Holt & Co. (www.henryholt.com/byr/rightscatalog.htm) (http://www.henryholt.com/byr/rightscatalog.htm))
* Beacon Press (www.beacon.org/rights/) (http://www.beacon.org/rights/))
* Simon & Schuster’s downloadable catalogues (www.simonsays.com/subs/tx...=catalogs) (http://www.simonsays.com/subs/txtobj.cfm?areaid=184&pagename=catalogs))
* Time Warner's downloadable catalogues (www.twbookmark.com/intern...hts.shtml) (http://www.twbookmark.com/international_rights.shtml))
* Little, Brown's downloadable catalogues (www.twbookmark.com/catalo...nal.shtml) (http://www.twbookmark.com/catalog/seasonal.shtml))

All this info plus more links and tips is available in my article "Researching an Agent's Track Record": www.sff.net/people/Victor...ecord.html (http://www.sff.net/people/VictoriaStrauss/trackrecord.html)

- Victoria

[James D Macdonald]

Rule of thumb: A useful agent has sold books you've heard of.

See also <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004772.html" target="_new">here</a>.

My own (now out of date, as Victoria points out) experience: Sold a short story. On the strength of that, got a gig writing packaged novels, on the strength of that, got an agent.

There are lots of paths in publishing, and first-time authors continue to get top-drawer agents and publication by top-rank publishers every day.

Nothing is guaranteed. The only things really under your control are how well you write (write your best, keep improving!) and where and how you submit (to the best places, in a professional manner).

Whatever you do, don't sell yourself short.

[Jamesaritchie]

As has really already been said, agents are really just the new gatekeepers. Large publishers have always had gatekeepers between editors who had the power to buy and writers who wanted to sell. These gatekeepers used to be employed by the publishers, they were first readers, associate editors, etc., but somewhere along the line publishers discovered it was cheaper and easier to let agents do the job.

In addition to the ways others here have said to go about finding an agent, sometimes it's as easy as calling a publisher and talking to the right person. Find books similar to your own, then call the publisher and ask who handled those novels. It won't always work, but when all else fails, it sometimes can.


I agree with Victoria completely about the number of books being published. So many books are being released each year that only the occasional bestseller stands a chance of making serious money. Publishers are simply churning books out in huige numbers, throwing them all at the wall, and hoping a few stick.

So many books are being released that shelf life is down to three weeks for paperbacks, and this simply isn't enough time for a book to start selling.

The number needs to be cut drastically. By at least 25%, in my opinion, if publishing wants to get back on track.

I think the larger publishers are slowly catching on to this, but it's still too early to tell.

Anyway, the number one thing to look for in an agent is the footprints she leaves. A good agent is one who is already selling novels to top publishers on a regular basis. A great agent is one who already sells books very much like your own in style and content on a regular basis.

An honest agent doesn't always mean a good agent. There are many honest agents who simply do not know what a good, publishable novel is, and such an agent is just as bad as a scam agent. Agents earn their reputations by the quality of the novels they send to editors, and an agent who consistently submits poorly written novels is soon ignored by editors. Which means the writers she handles are also ignored.

Of course, none of this means anything unless you have a good novel ready to go.