Please settle a debate on possessives

Talia · Jun 14, 2007

I've been discussing possessives with another writer. As far as I'm aware apostrophes must always be used for possessives and contractions.

I think all possessives should have apostrophes, irrespective of whether singular or plural.
e.g the writer's pen (singular), the writers' forum (plural)

Maybe not the best example LOL

She said:
Also, when it comes to "belonging to (ownership)", and plurals, it's acceptable to omit the apostrophe (depends on whether you go by US diction or English).

Anyway I'd love to know which is correct. Maybe I missed some changes somewhere? Plus being based in NZ I'm not up with the play on US conventions.

alleycat · Jun 14, 2007

Your first example is correct, assuming you're talking about one writer and his pen. However, I don't believe your second example is; I think it would be "writers forum" in that particular case, since they don't own the forum; but your idea is correct that a plural noun ending in s would get an apostrophe.

Harper K · Jun 14, 2007

I'm from the U.S., though I've taught English overseas with Brits, Aussies, and New Zealanders. I've never heard that possessive rule in any form of English. If it's saying what I think it does, it would mean that something like

The Smiths house was on a hill

is correct. But it's not. The correct form would always be

The Smiths' house was on a hill.

The only exceptions I can think of right now are the possessive pronouns. His, hers, theirs, ours, yours, etc.

Quick edit:

I think "writers forum" could go either way. If it's written as writers forum, it would mean "a forum composed of writers," and if it's written as writers' forum, then it would mean "a forum belonging to the the writers."

glendalough · Jun 14, 2007

Then there is plural possessive

The dogs' house...the house of many dogs

Jamesaritchie · Jun 14, 2007

alleycat said:
Your first example is correct, assuming you're talking about one writer and his pen. However, I don't believe your second example is; I think it would be "writers forum" in that particular case, since they don't own the forum; but your idea is correct that a plural noun ending in s would get an apostrophe.

It can be "writer's forum," or it can be "writers' forum," but not "writers forum."

Jamesaritchie · Jun 14, 2007

satori said:
I'm from the U.S., though I've taught English overseas with Brits, Aussies, and New Zealanders. I've never heard that possessive rule in any form of English. If it's saying what I think it does, it would mean that something like

The Smiths house was on a hill

is correct. But it's not. The correct form would always be

The Smiths' house was on a hill.

The only exceptions I can think of right now are the possessive pronouns. His, hers, theirs, ours, yours, etc.

Quick edit:

I think "writers forum" could go either way. If it's written as writers forum, it would mean "a forum composed of writers," and if it's written as writers' forum, then it would mean "a forum belonging to the the writers."

We do sometimes say The Smith house was on a hill.

jchines · Jun 14, 2007

The only one I can think of is "its," which is possessive. As opposed to "it's", which is a contraction of "it is".

"The dragon? Its cave is up on the mountaintop there. It's a rough climb, though."

I can't think of any other apostropheless possessives.

scarletpeaches · Jun 14, 2007

His and her are possessives. No apostrophe.

ResearchGuy · Jun 14, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
It can be "writer's forum," or it can be "writers' forum," but not "writers forum."

One would like to think so, but it is not always so.

Consider the Calfornia Writers Club.

Indeed, it looks like it should be "California Writers' Club." However, in that organization's name, "California Writers" is a phrase used as an adjective modifying "Club." It is not actually a possessive. The confusion would not arise if it were "California Writing Club." But the club is not about California writing, it is about California writers. (I know, I know, it does look funny, and I always want to add the apostrophe. But it is nonetheless correct, given the nuance.)

Likewise, the periodical Publishers Weekly. No apostrophe. It is about publishers, not of publishers.

--Ken

ResearchGuy · Jun 14, 2007

scarletpeaches said:
His and her are possessives. No apostrophe.

But they are pronouns (like "its"), and hence a special case (that is, they are not the possessive form of nouns).

--Ken

alleycat · Jun 14, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
It can be "writer's forum," or it can be "writers' forum," but not "writers forum."

Please explain why.

The State University of New York uses it, or do others. If they're some explaination about why it's right in one place and not another, I'm all ears. Sometimes grammar is like that. I could be missing some nuance.

But I often do see "writer's forum" and "writers' forum" used as well.

Edited to add: I posted before reading ResearchGuy's post above. Perhaps his point should be the one for debate.

FennelGiraffe · Jun 14, 2007

satori said:
The only exceptions I can think of right now are the possessive pronouns. His, hers, theirs, ours, yours, etc.

scarletpeaches said:
His and her are possessives. No apostrophe.

ResearchGuy said:
But they are pronouns (like "its"), and hence a special case (that is, they are not the possessive form of nouns).

That's right. The rules for pronouns are not the same as the rules for nouns. But pronouns are delightfully irregular anyway. Its, his, her/hers, their/theirs, your/yours, our/ours, my/mine. Also thy/thine, for that matter.

ETA: Whose.

Harper K · Jun 14, 2007

ResearchGuy said:
One would like to think so, but it is not always so.

Consider the Calfornia Writers Club.

Indeed, it looks like it should be "California Writers' Club." However, in that organization's name, "California Writers" is a phrase used as an adjective modifying "Club." It is not actually a possessive. The confusion would not arise if it were "California Writing Club." But the club is not about California writing, it is about California writers. (I know, I know, it does look funny, and I always want to add the apostrophe. But it is nonetheless correct, given the nuance.)

Likewise, the periodical Publishers Weekly. No apostrophe. It is about publishers, not of publishers.

--Ken

Yes! Perfect explanation. This is what I was stumbling over in my earlier post. "A phrase used as an adjective" nails it. Many organization names use that construction -- the American Homeowners Association, for example.

I belong to an organization called the Atlanta Writers Club. About half the time we're mentioned in the newspaper, we're transformed into either the Atlanta Writer's Club or the Atlanta Writers' Club.

Talia · Jun 14, 2007

Thanks everyone.

Trying to summarise then:
All possessives have aspotrophes unless they are pronouns...

Which is the way I've always thought of it, althought I confess I forgot to put that in my original post. I was watching TV and I started writing a qualification to my sentence and then when I looked again I couldn't remember what I was trying to say so I scrubbed that part of the sentence LOL

Jamesaritchie · Jun 15, 2007

alleycat said:
Please explain why.

The State University of New York uses it, or do others. If they're some explaination about why it's right in one place and not another, I'm all ears. Sometimes grammar is like that. I could be missing some nuance.

But I often do see "writer's forum" and "writers' forum" used as well.

Edited to add: I posted before reading ResearchGuy's post above. Perhaps his point should be the one for debate.

Well, you can use it without the apostrophe. You can write something any old way you like. But the intent is always possessive, and the apostrophe should be there.

ResearchGuy · Jun 15, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
. . . the intent is always possessive, and the apostrophe should be there.

Nope. Sometimes the intent is adjectival.

IF the intent is possessive, then the apostrophe is required. If it is adjectival, then not.

I realize that is a difficult distinction to grasp, especially where the modifier is a plural. That "s" just cries out to be interpreted as a possessive, even when it is not.

Another way of thinking about this: sometimes the word or phrase is nominal -- that is, naming -- and therefore not possessive. I am not sure there is a useful distinction between nominal (naming) and adjectival (modifying), as the result looks the same in practice: not a possessive and no apostrophe.

Let's try some examples:

The California Writers Club. "California Writers" names the club. Or, alternatively, it modifies "Club." But the club does not belong to (all) California Writers. But it sure looks like it should be a possive simply because of the form and sound.

Would the reader have the same problem with The Literary Classics Club? Is it not obvious there that the club is about literary classics and that the "classics" do not own the club? Of course.

The two group names are the same in form. The first is about (more precisely, for) California writers. The second is about literary classics.

I know this is difficult. Some will always have trouble grasping such subtleties.

--Ken

alleycat · Jun 15, 2007

ResearchGuy said:
Nope. Sometimes the intent is adjectival.

IF the intent is possessive, then the apostrophe is required. If it is adjectival, then not.

That's what I was trying to say originally (and doing a poor job o fit). I didn't see "writers forum" as being possessive then, not that I haven't see "writers' forum" used a lot. I think the intent does make all the difference, how someone is thinking about the forum in question . . . is it a forum for a bunch of writers . . . or a forum that writers join and therefore it's their forum. Gee, I'm making my head spin.

How's this ResearchGuy?:

"the writers' forum" if someone is referring to a forum used by an identifiable group of writers (whether they are actually identified or not); "their forum". The "emphasis" (or intent) would be that it's their forum (possessive).

"the writers forum" if someone is referring to a non-specific forum; "a forum for writers". The "emphasis" (or intent) is that it's a forum for any number of writers (adjectival).

Does that make sense?

Talia · Jun 15, 2007

This debate is great. Next time I won't use writers' forum as an example hehe.

I spoke to my coblogger (who is also an editor for a publishing co) and I think she has accepted that her apostrophes are wrong LOL. I've been editing all her posts for missing or wrongly placed possessive apostrophes.

Thanks for the explanation researchguy. I know how to do the apostrophes but I am hopeless at explaining it. I will copy and paste some parts of this thread to help her (and I'm crossing my fingers her publishing co has a sub-editor work on the manuscripts she edits)

CaroGirl · Jun 15, 2007

Talia said:
...I spoke to my coblogger...

Took me minute to figure out what a "cob logger" is. Got it now.

Death Wizard · Jun 19, 2007

The way I was taught, Writer's Club (singular noun in possessive case), Writers' Club (plural noun in possessive case), and Writers Club (functioning as an adjective) are all correct, depending on the context.

Cassie · Jun 19, 2007

CaroGirl said:
Took me minute to figure out what a "cob logger" is. Got it now.

Tee hee .....

Please settle a debate on possessives

Talia

Contract Killer

alleycat

Still around

Harper K

here's to the girl on the go

glendalough

Not so new as all that, really

Jamesaritchie

Jamesaritchie

jchines

Got the hang of it, here

scarletpeaches

ResearchGuy

Resident Curmudgeon

ResearchGuy

Resident Curmudgeon

alleycat

Still around

FennelGiraffe

It's green they say

Harper K

here's to the girl on the go

Talia

Contract Killer

Jamesaritchie

ResearchGuy

Resident Curmudgeon

alleycat

Still around

Talia

Contract Killer

CaroGirl

Living the dream

Death Wizard

Tumhe na koci puujetha

Cassie

I can't get no, oh no no no.