I need help from a history buff...namely Mary Queen of Scots [Archive]

glendalough

06-14-2007, 05:05 AM

I am reading the Wikipedia entry on her and can't understand the four Mary's :

With her marriage agreement in place, five-year-old Mary was sent to France in 1548 to spend the next ten years at the French court. Henri II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_II_of_France) had offered to guard her and raise her. On August 7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_7), 1548 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1548), the French fleet sent by Henri II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_II_of_France) sailed back to France from Dumbarton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumbarton) carrying the five-year-old Queen of Scotland on board. She was accompanied by her own little court consisting of two lords, two half brothers, and the "four Marys", four little girls her own age, all named Mary, and the daughters of some of the noblest families in Scotland: Beaton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Beaton), Seton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Seton), Fleming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Fleming), and Livingston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Livingston).

JenNipps

06-14-2007, 05:43 AM

I'm not much help, but I'll copy your question over to the story research board. Maybe between here & there, you'll get some info.

job

06-14-2007, 05:43 AM

Hi Glen --
Can't understand the four Mary's ... what?

(OK. Couldn't resist. Sorry.)

Could you say what it is about the four Marys you don't understand.

Are you asking why they are all named Mary?

Mary of Scotland was sent to live in France, accompanied by four well-born girls of her own age. Since every third girl in Scotland was named Mary, it happend that all four of them were named Mary. Coincidence. To the best of my knowledge, they didn't try to pick a matched set or anything.

Or were you talking about the song maybe ... here (http://www.contemplator.com/scotland/4marys.html)

glendalough

06-14-2007, 06:02 AM

I guess I want information on who these girls are. Why they were chosen? Did they spend their childhood with her?

scarletpeaches

06-14-2007, 06:04 AM

They were connected to the nobility and acted as her companions as her mother couldn't go with her of course. They became her ladies in waiting but only one stayed with her through adulthood - it escapes me which one.

Medievalist

06-14-2007, 06:11 AM

I guess I want information on who these girls are. Why they were chosen? Did they spend their childhood with her?

Most of it, yes. They were her companions, and, also, hostages for their families good behavior.

Silver King

06-14-2007, 06:19 AM

I am reading the Wikipedia entry on her and can't understand the four Mary's :
There's the reason for your confusion right there. Don't rely on Wikipedia as a source for serious research. You'd be better off asking strangers on the street their take on history; which, come to think of it, is what Wikipedia is comprised of...

scarletpeaches

06-14-2007, 06:23 AM

Medievalist recommended Antonia Fraser's biography in the other thread; I'd like to add John Guy's "My Heart is My Own" to the list of suggested reading.

Writer2011

06-14-2007, 07:06 AM

I'm not sure if Mary Queen of Scots was termed Bloody Mary, but i'm not sure...That area isn't my expertise so to speak.

job

06-14-2007, 07:24 AM

(Cough)

Mary 'Queen of Scots' was Queen Elizabeth's heir as long as she (Mary) was alive. Elizabeth and Mary were cousins. Henry VII was grandfather to both of them.

'Bloody' Mary was Elizabeth's half sister. Bloody Mary was the daughter of Catherine of Aragon and Henry VIII. Elizabeth was the daughter of Henry VIII and his second wife, Anne Boleyn.

Did I mention someplace that everybody seems to have been named Mary?

Writer2011

06-14-2007, 07:32 AM

Thank you Job---I couldn't remember for sure... It's been a while since I studied Henry VIII--who had eight wives and Anne Boleyn and all that... :)

job

06-14-2007, 07:50 AM

I guess I want information on who these girls are. Why they were chosen? Did they spend their childhood with her?

A prince or princess or duke or noble child of high estate
had his or her own 'household',
complete with tutors and maids-of-the-wardrobe and cooks and grooms and dwarfs and so on.

Noble families sent their spare children to these households as playmates and fellow students of the noble child.
These kids became the boon companions of the noble child.

When they all grew up, these boon compaions were the intimates of the King, Queen, Duke etc., held offices in the Kingly or Queenly household, and wangled favors for their families.

job

06-14-2007, 07:52 AM

Thank you Job---I couldn't remember for sure... It's been a while since I studied Henry VIII--who had eight wives and Anne Boleyn and all that... :)

(cough)

Six.

"Bluff King Hal was full of beans
He married half a dozen queens,
For three named Kate they called the banns,
One called Jane and a couple of Annes."

pdr

06-14-2007, 08:02 AM

Medievalist

06-14-2007, 08:17 AM

6 wives, aspiring!

I am puzzled to know why Mediaevalist says the the 4 Marys were hostages for their families' good behaviour. Usually it was a helluva scramble by the Lords to get their daughters near royalty in the hope of future favours. And the daughters weren't valuable hostages any way. Now if it had been the sons...!

Oops! Job. Cross posted.

MediEvalist says that because there are letters extant about the De Guise family's concerns regarding wealthy Scots barons, like the Beatons, turning towards the English, and suggesting a daughter in service to the queen would help cement the uneasy relationship between one of the larger, wealthier land owners and the foreign-raised queen.

Children in service to the crown were very much hostages in more cases than not.

job

06-14-2007, 08:19 AM

Hi pdr --

I don't know enough about this period to know if these particular girls were in part hostages.
Scots politics were astoundingly complicated.
(Look at Mary QoS's life ...)

Noble hostages were often tossed into this pool of royal playmates.

So it's quite plausible.

Captain Scarf

06-14-2007, 08:20 AM

Sorry I can't help you on this one.

History in British Schools is a hit and miss affair and all I know is that Elizabeth I had her executed after someone decoded messages from her and that the executioner made a hash of it.

Sadly I'm a modernist. 1800+

pdr

06-14-2007, 09:13 AM

But that, Mediaevalist, is just the usual boring old stuff. People sitting around and working out the best deals for themselves and their families. Always done around royalty or the wealthy influential power person.

The four Marys were all from Catholic families who supported the Old Alliance with France against England. They were pro- Mary anyway.

When you talking about: 'foreign-raised queen' is that Mary Q of S you mean here? She was raised in Scotland until her French marriage wasn't she? Or do you mean her daffy mother?

I mean, until Francis snuffed it, Mary was expected to be Queen of France and Scotland and make a mighty alliance, shut down Henry VIII's aggression and bolster Scotland's clout politically with England. Surely the governing lairds were looking at that rosy future?

Medievalist

06-14-2007, 09:49 AM

Mary Queen of Scots was raised largely by her mother's French brothers, the De Guises, in France, from the time she was six; she spoke Scots with a French accent, all of her life. She lived in France, entirely, from the time she was six until she was nineteen. She never became fluent in English or in Scots, and hated the Scots people as barbarians and uncultured. She had a disastrous marriage with Lord Darnley, a total idiot, though she wasn't much brighter herself, and embarked on an affair with her Italian secretary, much as her husband had before her.

Here's a decent Web site (http://englishhistory.net/tudor/relative/maryqosbiography.html).

The three Marys (Mary Hamilton is not named in any historical source; there are letters and documents -- and threats -- against the three Marys) were not exactly there by choice -- and they weren't treated well, at all. There's a letter from Beaton about being hungry -- the DeGuises pretty much wanted to keep their niece tied to France, and the French court as she was their source of power and influence, and Scotland had no money, no power, and no standing army.

Willowmound

06-14-2007, 02:57 PM

... but only one stayed with her through adulthood - it escapes me which one.

Mary, I think.

johnnysannie

06-14-2007, 08:01 PM

The song goes something like this (and like all ballads in many versions):

Yestreen there were four Marys
Tonight there'll be but three
There was Mary Seaton and Mary Beaton
And Mary Carmichael and me.

Oh, often have I dressed my queen
And put on her braw silk gown
But all the thanks I've got tonight
Is to be hanged in Edinborough Town

Oftimes have I dressed my queen
Put gold upon her hair
But I have got for my reward
The gallows to be my share.

Oh little did my mother know
The day she cradled me
The land I was to travel in
The death I was to dee.

Oh, happy, happy is the maid
That's born of beauty free
Oh, it was my rosy dimpled cheeks
That's been the devil to me.

They'll tie a kerchief around my eyes
That I may not see to dee
And they'll never tell my father or mother
But that I'm across the sea.

glendalough

06-14-2007, 08:16 PM

PattiTheWicked

06-14-2007, 08:55 PM

If you're interested in reading well done fiction about the inner workings of court at this particular time frame, read The Other Boleyn Girl by Phillipa Gregory, or I, Elizabeth.

lkp

06-14-2007, 09:56 PM

Okay, sort of off (the new) topic, but where can I find information on what these 4 girls would have been like, as a group? Is it even written anywhere?

I want to write something about them but need a feel for the time. I don't supose there is a movie or video about her childhood at all?

There was a wonderful old YA novel by Jean Plaidy called, I think, The Young Mary Queen of Scots which talks about her childhood in France and the Marys. For something a little more adult, Dorothy Dunnett's Queen's Play Covers some of the same ground. Margeret George (is it?) also has a novel about Mary Queen of Scots.
To be honest, I think this ground has been fairly well-mined. But then, I think all the Tudors have been well-mined too and no one else seems to agree.

glendalough

06-14-2007, 11:11 PM

Ikp...I looked and my library has so many of Plaidy's books. Can you offer me the exact title? There is no Young Mary in title.

scarletpeaches

06-14-2007, 11:20 PM

...though she wasn't much brighter herself, and embarked on an affair with her Italian secretary...

!!! Much in dispute there on both points. There was no proof Mary ever 'hated' the Scots - she was one herself - or slept with Rizzio and I don't believe for a moment she would have been stupid enough to take that risk. Rumours (started by an enemy camp) should never be taken as fact.

And she left Scotland at the age of 5 and came back at the age of 18.

lkp

06-14-2007, 11:20 PM

It was a long time ago, in another county that I read it (and besides, the wench is dead). I did find it through google, under the title I gave you, so I guess your library doesn't have it. She wrote adult novels about Mary too, which you can find by googling.

glendalough

06-14-2007, 11:24 PM

Ugh, I wish I could find it online, it's just the thing I need. I looked at it on ebay and it's like $36 plus I could really use it this week. :(

Medievalist

06-15-2007, 05:45 AM

!!! Much in dispute there on both points. There was no proof Mary ever 'hated' the Scots - she was one herself - or slept with Rizzio and I don't believe for a moment she would have been stupid enough to take that risk. Rumours (started by an enemy camp) should never be taken as fact.

And she left Scotland at the age of 5 and came back at the age of 18.

There are her letters, in French, in which she describes them as barbarians and savages and enemies of the true faith.