True or false...?

Neeli · Jun 11, 2007

1. Modern novels do not use colons or semi-colons.
2. Modern novels generally have chapter lengths of 10 pages or fewer.
3. Thou shalt not have exposition/backstory before page 65.

These are some things I've been told by my crit group members. Are they true? I would disagree with all of them, but instead I smile and say thank you for letting me know. I'm sure I could find examples in recently published novels, but I always wonder if they're getting away with breaking the rules. What's the general opinion of the well-read people on this board?

glassquill · Jun 11, 2007

Neeli said:
1. Modern novels do not use colons or semi-colons.
2. Modern novels generally have chapter lengths of 10 pages or fewer.
3. Thou shalt not have exposition/backstory before page 65.

These are some things I've been told by my crit group members. Are they true? I would disagree with all of them, but instead I smile and say thank you for letting me know. I'm sure I could find examples in recently published novels, but I always wonder if they're getting away with breaking the rules. What's the general opinion of the well-read people on this board?

What would be considered modern novels?

JoNightshade · Jun 11, 2007

Neeli said:
1. Modern novels do not use colons or semi-colons.

Wow, I guess I'm never getting published. Pfft. Give me a break. What is this? "Don't use complex sentence structures or your stupid readers might get lost!"

2. Modern novels generally have chapter lengths of 10 pages or fewer.

Chapters are as long as they need to be.

3. Thou shalt not have exposition/backstory before page 65.

Thou shalt have exposition/backstory whenever it is appropriate.

These are some things I've been told by my crit group members. Are they true? I would disagree with all of them, but instead I smile and say thank you for letting me know. I'm sure I could find examples in recently published novels, but I always wonder if they're getting away with breaking the rules. What's the general opinion of the well-read people on this board?

There are no rules. There is only good writing. True, there are grammar rules and style rules, and you need to know the rules to break them, but your little list includes none of them. If I wanted to get off my butt and go to my bookshelf, which I don't, I could find you ten exceptions to each of these "rules."

Now, is your crit group telling you that these are absolutes, or are they simply recommending it in the case of your novel? Because, while it may not be true across the board, perhaps something in your novel leads them to conclude that you would be best to adhere to these guidelines. If you weren't using semi-colons properly, for instance, I would recommend against them. Or if you were writing for 8 year olds.

Siddow · Jun 11, 2007

Neeli said:
1. Modern novels do not use colons or semi-colons.
2. Modern novels generally have chapter lengths of 10 pages or fewer.
3. Thou shalt not have exposition/backstory before page 65.

I'm using "The Good Guy" by Dean Koontz as an example, published June 2007.

1. There's a semi-colon on page 7.
2. Chapter One is 14 pages in hardback. Chapter Two is 6 pages.
3. I'll let you know about the backstory when I get around to actually reading it.

Will Lavender · Jun 11, 2007

Ridiculous, all of them.

FennelGiraffe · Jun 11, 2007

1. Modern novels do not use colons or semi-colons.

Colons and semi-colons are susceptible to abuse and are best used in moderation. But an absolute ban? No way!

2. Modern novels generally have chapter lengths of 10 pages or fewer.

I'll pass on this one--no opinion.

3. Thou shalt not have exposition/backstory before page 65.

So that would be in chapter 7?

Badly handled exposition/backstory is inappropriate on any page. Properly handled expositon/backstory, on the other hand, belongs on whatever page it needs to be on.

Jamesaritchie · Jun 11, 2007

False

Neeli said:
1. Modern novels do not use colons or semi-colons.
2. Modern novels generally have chapter lengths of 10 pages or fewer.
3. Thou shalt not have exposition/backstory before page 65.

These are some things I've been told by my crit group members. Are they true? I would disagree with all of them, but instead I smile and say thank you for letting me know. I'm sure I could find examples in recently published novels, but I always wonder if they're getting away with breaking the rules. What's the general opinion of the well-read people on this board?

They're all false, and also tell me the people in that crit group don't spend much time reading.

BenPanced · Jun 11, 2007

I've never heard any of these "rules" in any of the guides on writing I have. But then, I guess they aren't about writing "modern" novels.

job · Jun 11, 2007

Neeli said:
1. Modern novels do not use colons or semi-colons.

The copyeditor was just trying to put semicolons and colons IN. So obviously there's no problem with them.

What I'd tell the crit group
-- I mean, I would if I wanted to go toe to toe with the crit group instead of doing the head bobble --
is that punctuation isn't something to worry about in the early stages of a manuscript.
You can always change punctuation later on.
In fact ... when you publish, the house is going to ask you to adjust your punctuation to match the house style.

Neeli said:
2. Modern novels generally have chapter lengths of 10 pages or fewer.

I dunnoh. It sounds like an artificial and unnecessary limitation. I could easily see a scene lasting longer than 2500 words.

If you're thinking about chaptering ... you might flip through some books and see where they have chapters longer than 10 pages ... and look at why the author decided to make these long chapters.

It gives you ammunition if you need to defend yer longer chapters.

Neeli said:
3. Thou shalt not have exposition/backstory before page 65.

Well I wouldn't put in noticeable expostion or backstory anywhere meself ...

JoB

Scrawler · Jun 11, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
They're all false, and also tell me the people in that crit group don't spend much time reading.

or writing.

rugcat · Jun 11, 2007

You might want to consider finding another crit group.

It's true that novelists such as Henry James tended to use more semicolons, mostly as a consequence of composing long and complex sentences. Modern novels, in general, tend to go with short, simple sentence structure, ala Hemingway. (Please, let's not start another discussion of his merits or lack of them.)

But there are so many exceptions that even my previous statement is suspect. The real problem, I think, is any group who attempts to discover or formulate "rules" for a proper novel doesn't have a clue at to what constitutes good writing--and you should weigh the value of their crits accordingly.

Gillhoughly · Jun 11, 2007

Your crit group needs to read more.

Lots more.

1) I use colons & semi-colons where needed for my stuff and put them in where needed when I'm editing others.

2) My chapters run 20-40 pages.

3) I put in backstory where needed, and if it's before p. 65, so be it. (How anyone settled on THAT number is a mystery I'd rather not solve.)

What pack of unpublished twits came up with this wank? :roll:

Aw, don't answer. I don't wanna know.

CaroGirl · Jun 11, 2007

I'd file all those under "G" myself. Sounds like a load of bunk.

Claudia Gray · Jun 11, 2007

These people are NUTS.

larocca · Jun 11, 2007

Neeli, methinks it's time to find another crit group. All five of my published manuscripts break all three of those rules, and three were EPPIE finalists.

And now that I'm an editor instead of an author, I certainly don't "correct" those things, or reject manuscripts for violating those imaginary rules.

windyrdg · Jun 11, 2007

The only one I see that has any validity is the short chapters. That does seem to be the trend, probably because so many people read on the run. But then again, other "modern" writers don't follow that rule. Go figure.

NicoleMD · Jun 11, 2007

Let me clear things up for you:

1. Semi-colons belong only on odd pages; colons only on even. (There are some exceptions that I won't go into right now.)
2. Every chapter should be exactly 2887 words long.
3. Exposition and backstory belong on pages 35-72, and should be presented as one continuous block of uninterrupted text.

Silly? Perhaps, but no more so than what your crit group is telling you. Tell the story you need to tell, in the style it needs to be told.

Cryptonomicon began with pages of backstory. Loved it. (He uses adverbs too, gasp!)

Terry Pratchett doesn't even know what a chapter is. Didn't even notice there weren't any till halfway through the book.

And I don't know where to start with the simi-colon/colon issue...

Nicole

Sandy J · Jun 11, 2007

Neeli said:
1. Modern novels do not use colons or semi-colons.
2. Modern novels generally have chapter lengths of 10 pages or fewer.
3. Thou shalt not have exposition/backstory before page 65.

Then I suppose every best-selling romance novel of the last two centuries would now be unacceptable.

Good writing is good writing, regardless of how many pages per chapter or how much backstory tumbles out before page 65 (so long as it's not info-dumping).

Chasing the Horizon · Jun 11, 2007

I've never read a book that didn't break at least one of those rules; (look! A semi-colon! Will your crit group arrest me for this?) usually they break all three.

Yeah, that would be why I'm not a part of any crit groups.

Devil Ledbetter · Jun 11, 2007

1. Modern novels do not use colons or semi-colons.

Sacrilege! This is the kind of crapola spouted by people who don't want to admit they've no idea how to punctuate above the baseline.

BardSkye · Jun 11, 2007

NicoleMD said:
Terry Pratchett doesn't even know what a chapter is. Didn't even notice there weren't any till halfway through the book.

I didn't notice until someone pointed it out. By that time I was up to "Jingo."

Having too good a time, I guess.

Penguin Queen · Jun 12, 2007

Rules:

1. Write.
2. Well.

That's it.

Oh and Neeli, I love your avatar!

expatbrat · Jun 12, 2007

The rules are there aint no rules. We all learnt that from Grease (the movie).

allenparker · Jun 12, 2007

Neeli said:
1. Modern novels do not use colons or semi-colons.
2. Modern novels generally have chapter lengths of 10 pages or fewer.
3. Thou shalt not have exposition/backstory before page 65.

I think this might be an overuse of some guidelines that come from trends showing up in novels lately.

Modern novels do not use semi-colons as often as older novels. Perhaps it is because of better screeening for colon cancer and proper diet.

Discussion of length might be less appropriate for us not-so-well-endowed fellows. And I am positive 10 is not the norm.

If we do not have action by $65, I am not asking her out again!!!

Prawn · Jun 12, 2007

I agree about the semi-colons being bad to the following extent: if you have punctuation issues, like fragments and run-ons, semi-colons are often stuck in there to fix them. If you use a semi-colon stylistically, go right ahead. If you are using it to shore up bad writing, you should avoid it.

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