Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1 [Archive] - Page 39

FOTSGreg

07-10-2009, 12:55 AM

Uncle Jim, I'm jealous. The last WorldCon I was to was out in San Francisco in the 1990s, but it was a blast (I met David Gerrold there and we had breakfast together to talk over some material I'd done based on his The War Against The Chtorr series that he was very interested in).

On a more positive note, I got a little over 1300 words done today plus the start of the outline (another couple hundred words on index cards) on my new WIP Gated. It's a dark thriller and I think it's off to a great start (stopped this afternoon at the start of a gunfight between one of the main characters and the villains and with another main character trying to escape the takeover of the bar she works in.

I really do like the index card method of outlining. I'll be putting together the next few cards this evening and afternoon for the next few chapters or so.

A question though - would you put character notes or plot notes on unnumbered cards that could go in basically anywhere or where you wanted them to or would you number those cards too?

James D. Macdonald

07-10-2009, 01:04 AM

I'd number the character cards. They get inserted where the character is introduced.

Plot overview I might put on a separate sheet. Check out what works for you.

smsarber

07-10-2009, 01:27 AM

I'm back after a week away on vacation at the hospital. Friday I was coughing up blood, Monday had a bronchoscopy, Tuesday my heart went into atrial-fibrillation. Finally got to come home today, Yea! But I didn't just sit on my but, I wrote 5500 words, half of which on the novel I'm working on. In a way it was nice, because they had me mostly bed-ridden, so it was like, Get bored? Write! Get bored? Write!

Oh, did I mention the broken ribs? Osteoperosis and weak bones; broke 'em coughing. Okay, so the writing part was nice, not the pain, the blood, and the A-Fib;)

FOTSGreg

07-10-2009, 01:44 AM

Uncle Jim, Thanks. That makes sense actually.

Keeping track of character names and where they first occur has been a problem for me in the past although the Find function usually takes care of that problem, but that only shows you where they first occur, not what you were thinking of at the time for them.

Ken Schneider

07-10-2009, 03:02 AM

A good or great memory is a super thing to have when you are a writer.

Helps with all the plot spinning and being able to bring it all together.

Sponsored by the brain food group.

Really, I read it today.

Judg

07-10-2009, 10:02 AM

Judg: I read somewhere that smiling, grinning and shrugging should be avoided. (one of Jim's reference links, methinks). These are really big problems for me. My characters are doing these on every page!
I think I had better add those words to my list. And again, it's the overuse that should be avoided. They are perfectly good words in and of themselves.

Salis

07-10-2009, 10:54 AM

Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about smiling/grinning/shrugging unless it's multiple times a page (in which case, pare it down).

Just keep in mind that people do change facial expressions pretty commonly when talking. If we limited ourselves to almost never using them, it would be pretty boring (and inaccurate).

James D. Macdonald

07-10-2009, 11:02 AM

Well, I wouldn't use "smiled," "shrugged," or "grinned" as dialog tags in place of "said." That's for sure.

Salis

07-10-2009, 11:13 AM

Agreed. It should be there for a reason, not as "filler", but someone joking with a smile is a completely different effect than someone joking with a straight face.

euclid

07-10-2009, 02:40 PM

euclid

07-10-2009, 02:51 PM

I'm a bit confused here. Donald Maass talks about "scenes" as do many other how-to-write authors. He (and they) say that each scene should involve conflict and tension, and the participants must have goals. By the end of the scene, the story and the characters should have moved forward (paraphrasing madly here) as a result of inner and outer turning points. Foreshadowing future events and linking back to earlier ones are good.

Does that mean that every word of my book should fit into a "scene"?

I have linking sections that don't. Small sections where war events are catalogued, for example. (The army marched into Paris and everyone left work and had a big party in the streets (of Berlin) - sort of thing).

euclid

07-10-2009, 02:53 PM

I think I had better add those words to my list. And again, it's the overuse that should be avoided. They are perfectly good words in and of themselves.

Frowning is another one, I reckon.

euclid

07-10-2009, 02:56 PM

Well, I wouldn't use "smiled," "shrugged," or "grinned" as dialog tags in place of "said." That's for sure.

"Don't look at me in that tone of voice," he grinned.

Is grammatically incorrect because, as someone said, you can't grin words. But:

"Don't look at me in that tone of voice." He grinned.

is okay, with a period iso a comma

?

euclid

07-10-2009, 02:59 PM

A good or great memory is a super thing to have when you are a writer.

Mine's like a goldfish's

Ruth2

07-10-2009, 04:43 PM

When I was working on my magnum opus (clocking in at 125K right now; I'm afraid to look at the bloated thing) I used index cards and long swaths of tractor feed printer paper. The paper was to keep track of the main plot and two subplots; it brought new meaning to "I'm papering the office today." The cards were for scenes, characters and anything else that I thought was important.

I'm still finding cards stashed in "I won't lose it here" places...

Aggy B.

07-10-2009, 05:41 PM

As I work through my third draft I'm having to add chapters. Probably one new chapter for every two or three revised/old chapters.

Should I revise the new ones as I go so that by the time I reach the end of the draft everything is of a relatively equal quality? Or should I just resign myself to having really crap chapters (inbetween almost finished/polished chapters) to revise in the next go 'round?

(Currently I start my writing each day by working through at least part of one of the newer chapters and then move on to the "older" chapters to ensure that the MS moves forward and doesn't just sit in the same spot while I fiddle endlessly with the same scenes.)

HConn

07-10-2009, 06:19 PM

Does that mean that every word of my book should fit into a "scene"?

Every book will have text that transitions from one scene to another, even if it's just "I drove to work and found the front door locked."

FOTSGreg

07-10-2009, 06:58 PM

Aggy B, I had a similar experience when I was revising Hatchings. I'd re-ordered the chapters from the first draft on an editor's recommendations (over at Baen's Universe slush) and discovered numerous plotholes and inconsistencies that I had to go in and backfill.

It happens, even to the best writers (though not, of course, to our favorite Uncle here). I've found inconsistencies and plotholes in published works from time to time.

Euclid, When I end a piece of dialogue with a period instead of with "said", the next sentence is usually, with me, either the start of another character's response or some action by the speaking character that adds some color and depth to the character and provides action with the dialogue.

Not that I'm an expert or nothin'.

SarahMacManus

07-10-2009, 08:03 PM

Does that mean that every word of my book should fit into a "scene"?

I have linking sections that don't. Small sections where war events are catalogued, for example. (The army marched into Paris and everyone left work and had a big party in the streets (of Berlin) - sort of thing).

Those are "scenes" too - they're just a different kind of scene. "Transitional scenes" And you can have goals and conflict in there, too.

The army could wonder if they were going to be lauded as heros or spat upon. The party could cause chaos in the streets. Etc.

There's also "reaction" scenes - the time between actions when the protag reacts internally to what just happened and makes decisions. Most of the conflict/goals is internal.

euclid

07-10-2009, 08:54 PM

Those are "scenes" too - they're just a different kind of scene. "Transitional scenes" And you can have goals and conflict in there, too.

The army could wonder if they were going to be lauded as heros or spat upon. The party could cause chaos in the streets. Etc.

There's also "reaction" scenes - the time between actions when the protag reacts internally to what just happened and makes decisions. Most of the conflict/goals is internal.

Here's a quote from Maass's Writing the Breakout Novel (I hope he wont mind) p 175: "The so-called 'aftermath' scene, in which the hero digests what has just happened to him and settles on his next step, is an outdated technique. Low tension breeds in the space between confrontations and other high moments."

Aggy B.

07-10-2009, 09:25 PM

Well, sometimes one needs a moment to breath in the midst of a story. Slower scenes don't have to break tension. Though obviously a scene with two characters eating lunch doesn't have the immediate and obvious tension of a scene where two characters are trying to defuse a bomb.

My betas are complaining there is to much "go" in my chapters and they want to see some slower, less tense scenes. So. For whatever that's worth.

euclid

07-10-2009, 10:08 PM

It's all very confusing, isn't it?

Blue Sky

07-10-2009, 11:07 PM

It's all very confusing, isn't it?

Life confuses at every turn. Our true lies depict life. Are we are getting warmer? (Quite a pickle. :popcorn:)

FOTSGreg

07-11-2009, 01:34 AM

Uncle Jim, I've got a sort of plot-and outline-related question (again).

As you know, my new WIP Gated involves a gated community. I had originally thought about using a community such as the ones that are on the ourskirts of Rio Vista, CA (near where I used to live), but I've decided to use the one I currently live in as more of a model. My community's not gated, but it is laid out on a larger scale by mile-square "blocks" and surrounded by other smaller communities. I'm wiping out (not literally or even figuratively) some of the surrounding communities and setting what is essentially a self-contained small "town" within a few miles of a big city (so Sheriff, police, and other response forces are relatively available).

One of the things I'm doing is taking a big map of the locality, marking off the perimeter of the community in highlighter, and then specifically locating certain areas inside the community (such as business centers, hardware stores, a school or two, library, security headquarters, etc.) using pushpins, Post It notes, or one of those finepoint permanent markers.

Does that sound reasonable to you so that I have a specific map of the community that I can always refer to and track my character's movements or is it too much detail (I won't go that far in the book, obviously)?

Calliopenjo

07-11-2009, 01:46 AM

FOTSGreg, if there's one thing I've leaned it's "Whatever floats your boat." Use what works for you. The literary world won't care and neither will your fans. Why? Because you are the only one that knows what you did to create the masterpiece that was published.

Somebody said once, that they act out the scenes dialog and all when writing. Teddy bears and baby dolls all around with 3 X 5 cards stuck to them.

Who's to say it's too much?

James D. Macdonald

07-11-2009, 03:15 AM

Does that sound reasonable to you so that I have a specific map of the community that I can always refer to and track my character's movements or is it too much detail (I won't go that far in the book, obviously)?

Sure, it's reasonable for you. The readers don't have to know it, but it's probably good for you to know exactly where everything is. (I had a large-scale map of Chicago in 1927 on my wall whilst writing Timecrime, Inc.) (I also had a calendar with important dates noted, so I knew things like the fact that Bugs Moran got out of jail (where he'd been on a Loft-and-Safe beef) on a Sunday.) That material never made it into the finished book, but my knowing it made my writing more confident.

No one but you ever sees anything but the final draft.

FOTSGreg

07-11-2009, 03:32 AM

Thanks, Uncle Jim. I probably would have done it anyway, but just needed the extra vote of confidence.

BTW, I just nailed down a military consultant I think who's willing to advise me on the more military aspects of this book (he happens to be the husband of an AW member in good standing).

I love working with experts.

smsarber

07-11-2009, 05:54 AM

I love working with experts.

I'm available anytime, Greg *wink*;)

euclid

07-11-2009, 03:29 PM

Ken Schneider

07-11-2009, 08:01 PM

Duncan J Macdonald

07-11-2009, 08:22 PM

I have a question.

If someone was talking to your MC in his mind, as in

MC heard a voice whisper to him, not his own. Don't give up (hope), MC, all is not lost.

How would you denote it.

With ()
Italics, I'd think not.
Unerline, No?
Bold?

Thanks, Ken
I heard a voice in my head, "John, turn left."
"What?" I replied.
"Turn left. You won't regret it."
I turned left and the safe which had been in free-fall since the eighty-third floor smashed the pavement instead of my head.
"See?"

Or, in Standard Manuscript Format:

I heard a voice in my head, "John, turn left."
"What?" I replied.
"Turn left. You won't regret it."
I turned left and the safe which had been in free-fall since the eighty-third floor smashed the pavement instead of my head.
"See?"

Ken Schneider

07-11-2009, 08:56 PM

Yep I do. Thanks, Duncan.

Idea Tailor

07-11-2009, 10:43 PM

Seeking the wisdom of the sages....
I know my question is a common one, but I haven't fond a definitive answer in my searches so far. Feel free to point me to a different source, it's just I'm feeling all jumpy and can't focus. <Insert cry for help here.>

I know we are supposed to be silent and drive stakes through our hands and nails through our lips while waiting for an agent's response. In addition to body piercing, THE WAIT has given me time to give the first 50 (what was requested) significant revision. Is it okay to contact the agent to resubmit, assuming they haven't yet read what I sent? Or...?

Turning to my most reliable forms of stress relief in the interim.

smsarber

07-11-2009, 11:53 PM

In my mind, once I've decided a piece is ready to go out into the world I have decided it needs no further revision. So I vow not to touch it anymore. But that's me...

James D. Macdonald

07-12-2009, 12:48 AM

Idea Tailor

07-12-2009, 01:30 AM

I appreciate the advice.

A bit more information so you don't think I'm simply scattered. I am co-author. An agent offered a contract if we would use a particular (revisions) editor whose name on it would "guarantee" publication. While I ruled that agent out immediately for obvious reasons, author wished to contract with editor for a read-through and comment. Said editor agreed with something I'd been advocating all along (beefing up a particular female character). In the interim, we submitted to another agent.

I'm not sure about "desire" not to edit any more. It's easy to get past wanting to. Needing to is, at least for me at this early stage, harder to know.

Ken Schneider

07-12-2009, 06:16 AM

Alas, agents and editors will asked for revisions, and the author can refuse or relent.

James D. Macdonald

07-12-2009, 09:51 AM

The only time you should revise is when the editor's checkbook is open.

motormind

07-12-2009, 01:50 PM

Well, sometimes one needs a moment to breath in the midst of a story. Slower scenes don't have to break tension. Though obviously a scene with two characters eating lunch doesn't have the immediate and obvious tension of a scene where two characters are trying to defuse a bomb.

It can, as long as you do it well. The situation is not as important as the conflict that arises from it.

Ken Schneider

07-12-2009, 04:54 PM

I've come to the conclusion that I need to rewrite my entire first chapter.

I'ts just not good enough to query with IMO. I don't want to move chapter three up to the beginning and chapter one down.
It just has to go and, or be made better. I'd rather scrap it and start over. Doesn't have enough pizzaz for me.

I spent all of yesterday reading opening chapters from several pubbed novels.

Mine will never get past the agent or editor. When they only asked for 10 pages they'll never get to the good parts or where the action really takes off.

I kind of had this revelation yeaterday. I'm cutting my nose off to spite my face if I let it go out. Wasted postage, you know.

Anyone else feel this way?

motormind

07-12-2009, 06:11 PM

Mine will never get past the agent or editor. When they only asked for 10 pages they'll never get to the good parts or where the action really takes off.

It bothers me that this would be necessary. My novel starts out normally and gets weirder as it progresses. Starting out with the action would ruin that flow.

Ken Schneider

07-12-2009, 09:42 PM

It bothers me that this would be necessary. My novel starts out normally and gets weirder as it progresses. Starting out with the action would ruin that flow.

When you only get ten pages, they have to grab the reader/agent/editor.

If you don't make then read on, you're sunk.

FOTSGreg

07-13-2009, 12:25 AM

euclid

07-13-2009, 12:38 AM

Steve is correct. Instead of revising the current work, write the next one.

If the agent thinks the work is publishable, and asks for a full, send her the new version. If you have other agents on your list, send them the revised version.

Resolve that your next work (which you are writing right now) won't be sent out until the desire to do major revisions has passed.

And learn from this. The only lesson that is wasted is the one from which you learn nothing.

Having read Donald Maass's Writing the Breakout Novel, I have undertaken a major revision of my book (which I have been querying: see sig). I should be finished the revision by the end of this week, at which time I intend to resubmit to some (not all) of the agents I submitted to before (including Mr. Maass). The book is just too strong to leave on a shelf. I will also submit it to some new agents, of course, and to the one agent who has already read the whole ms (pre-revision).

Ken Schneider

07-13-2009, 01:00 AM

smsarber, I might take you up on that if I knew what you were expert in.

:)

Ken, Maybe you're starting your books in the wrong place? Just a thought...

It took me quite awhile to realize that today you've only got about 200 words to really capture an agent or editor's attention and then only about 5 pages to get them really interested.

Unless you write like Uncle Jim, of course (shameless sucking up).

I don't know. I'm starting at the begining, nothing comes before the begining. Something comes before the middle, and after the middle, but nothing comes after the end.

It's just that the begining has to be a good beginning, not a moved up third chapter that doesn't fit. I have scene break that wouldn't make sense moved up. Then I'd have to re-write the third chapter to make sense as a first chapter. Why rewrite it to fit a begining when I can just rewrite a good begining.

FOTSGreg

07-13-2009, 01:22 AM

Ken Schneider wrote, Why rewrite it to fit a begining when I can just rewrite a good begining.

My initial response is "To get the story moving".

Action captures a readers (and an agents and editors) attention. Grab 'em first. You can explain the rest of it to 'em later at some leisure, but you gotta' get their attention first.

Think of readers, agents, and editors somewhat like donkeys. There's an old adage that involves a baseball bat and the saying "First, get their attention."

Do not give anyone a chance to set your book aside and stamp "Rejection" on the front page. Hit 'em with your best shot (to use a Pat Benatar metaphor) and then keep hitting them again and again. Start off with an active scene and keep the action moving until there's a reasonable pause to the story. Then explain what you need to before starting the action again.

Think of your readers, agents, and editors like you do your main characters - punch 'em and keep on punching them with your writing. Never give 'em a chance to really come up for more than a short breath at a time. You want them completely immersed in your world and oblivious to your writing, your style, any typos, infodumps, etc., etc.

If you're not willing to kick your characters (and your readers, agents, and editors) when they're down, don't hit 'em when they're standing up.

Figuratively, of course, and meaning with your writing.

:)

Ken Schneider

07-13-2009, 01:32 AM

Yes, but I can get the action going with a new first chapter, versus mucking up the rest of the story.

James D. Macdonald

07-13-2009, 04:56 AM

It bothers me that this would be necessary. My novel starts out normally and gets weirder as it progresses. Starting out with the action would ruin that flow.

No one ever said your book had to start with action.

What it has to start with is a reason for the reader to turn the page.

James D. Macdonald

07-13-2009, 04:59 AM

...at which time I intend to resubmit to some (not all) of the agents I submitted to before (including Mr. Maass).

Did any of them invite you to resubmit the work after you'd made revisions?

smsarber

07-13-2009, 08:58 AM

Yes, the beginning is THE HOOK. It doesn't have to be car chases and blown up skirts; action isn't, as we've stated, always physical. To me, action in the hook can simply be the act of introduction. Just make sure to move the story along with that intro. "Hi, I'm Dave. I'm a thirty-three year-old computer programmer with prematurely gray hair." is probably not the best moving intro. "My hair went gray at thirty-three. Maybe that's life, maybe it's stress, I don't know. I work with computers, it used to be my dream. Now it's more of a curse." is a little better, hopefully enough to make my point. Of course, I forgot what my point was...

FOTS, lately the only thing I'm expert in is dirty diapers and putting my foot in my mouth, so if you ever need expertise in those areas... LOL.

5bcarnies

07-13-2009, 09:45 AM

I think you made your point quite nicely.

And don't let being an expert on diapers and the art of putting ones foot in their mouth get you down. It'll pass. Trust me on that, I've got four daughters.

Elidibus

07-13-2009, 11:24 AM

And learn from this. The only lesson that is wasted is the one from which you learn nothing.

I just popped in to say I've learned more about writing in this particular thread (And this website as a whole) than I have ever learned in college.

And this was free.

Everyone in here is officially "Awesome"

That is all :-D

FOTSGreg

07-13-2009, 08:07 PM

Calliopenjo

07-13-2009, 09:00 PM

Hi Uncle Jim,

It's stupid question time. I'm nearing the end of my story and I'm wondering how would I know if an epilogue is necessary. I've done prologues in the past, being a fantasy writer I think it comes along with the territory. But I've never done epilogues. I think the story would be okay without it. Ideas? Comments?

Ken Schneider

07-13-2009, 09:36 PM

I think I'm enough of an expert at putting my foot in my mouth. Dirty diapers, on the other hand, I'll let folks far more expert than myself handle.

While I did say "Action" up above, Uncle Jim put it far, far better.

Ken, I haven't read your book, but you've said yourself that there's nothing in the first 10 pages or so to hook an agent, editor, or reader's attention. You've also said that you want your beginning to be "good". Maybe, just maybe, it's good enough already. At this point I'd say quit worrying about making the beginning perfect and start submitting it. A single agent or editor does not the whole of the population make.

Get it out there. Get some feedback. Someone might actually like it and decide it's worth working with you on.

You never know until you try.

I said I don't think my first chapter is good enough to submit, not there's nothing in it to hook the agent or editor.

I only get ten pages of my first chapter to submit with the query. The ten pages before didn't seem to me to grab interest. Maybe it would have. I know the rewrite will.

I've been at this game for five years, and do have a couple of shorts published.

I've included the rough draft of the first paragraph. I think it draws some interest. How about you?

Wil was on his hands and knees again when he woke. The grass was torn from its roots revealing the bare ground, and his fingernails were buried in the dirt. Worms by the hundreds wiggled away from the spot, leaving him in a pristine, lifeless, patch of Earth. The other orphans watched from a distance.

Judg

07-13-2009, 09:41 PM

slivered? slithered? Although worms don't slither, snakes do. It's quite a different motion.

Your paragraph certainly succeeds in awakening a bunch of questions, which is always a good thing.

Ken Schneider

07-13-2009, 09:44 PM

slivered? slithered? Although worms don't slither, snakes do. It's quite a different motion.

Your paragraph certainly succeeds in awakening a bunch of questions, which is always a good thing.

I said rough. Just fininsh rewrting last night, late.

But, I changed it to wiggled. Thanks.

Judg

07-13-2009, 09:58 PM

Sorry, missed that. Should never go on forums when tired. Of course, in my case, that would eliminate most of my forum participation...

Admiral Snuggles

07-13-2009, 10:02 PM

I said rough. Just fininsh rewrting last night, late.

But, I changed it to wiggled. Thanks.

I always thought worms "wriggled".

Ken Schneider

07-14-2009, 12:29 AM

I always thought worms "wriggled".

No they wiggle. Unless you're Golum and you're talking about a rabbit.

The first paragraph tells me this.

We are introduced to a character, by name, presumably the MC.
Wil, has made something strange happen. The worms and pristine Earth.
He's at an orphanage.

Trying do a UJ on the paragraph. My apologies to Uncle Jim.

Dale Emery

07-14-2009, 12:45 AM

No they wiggle.

They do both.

Wiggle your fingers. Now wriggle your fingers. Wriggling is squirmier than wiggling.

Dale

FOTSGreg

07-14-2009, 02:05 AM

Honestly, aside from quibbling about a single letter in a single word, I think the paragraph does the job it's supposed to which is making me want to read the next paragraph, etc. etc.

smsarber

07-14-2009, 04:05 AM

Ken, the dictionary defines "wriggle" as to and fro movement, like a worm. To move along by twisting and turning

Wiggle suggests no forward movement, wriggle does, in my opinion. For what it's worth...

James D. Macdonald

07-14-2009, 06:03 AM

This looks more like SYW material.

smsarber

07-14-2009, 09:56 AM

It's your thread, and you would know best. But I would think that since finding and choosing the right word, not just settling for the one closest at hand, is such an important part of novel writing that it would fit here. But as always, what do I know, LOL.;):Shrug:

Are we going to play first page again soon? That always sets off good discussions.

euclid

07-14-2009, 01:03 PM

Did any of them invite you to resubmit the work after you'd made revisions?

No. I think one did by way of a form letter that said something about "Rework". Anyhow, there are only two really big agents that I'd be tempted to try again, so maybe I'll stick with the ones who haven't responded yet.

ETA: One guy read the whole book, of course, and he suggested that I re-do the first 50 pages. I did this but he hasn't come back since (2 months).

euclid

07-14-2009, 01:24 PM

I thought the opening should create a bond between the reader and the MC and provide a strong element of tension relevant to the plot/theme of the book. I've rewritten my opening along those lines. Still not 100% happy with the first sentence, though...

James D. Macdonald

07-14-2009, 02:52 PM

I thought the opening should create a bond between the reader and the MC and provide a strong element of tension relevant to the plot/theme of the book.

That sounds a lot like something out of a how-to-write book.

Have you found this to be true of any published work you've ever read?

Ken Schneider

07-14-2009, 03:45 PM

Sorry UJ, it just king of evolved.

Thank though, folks.

euclid

07-14-2009, 05:40 PM

That sounds a lot like something out of a how-to-write book.

Have you found this to be true of any published work you've ever read?

Yes, it's my interpretation of what I've been reading in how-to-write books. It seems fairly non-controversial, though. It must be important to make a connection (a bond) between MC and reader as early as possible. The reader has to care about the MC and what happens to him/her.

I have a number of examples from Maass's book. The Road, by Cormac McCarthy is one that I've actually got here.

In the case of my own book, Chapter 1 used to start with dialogue: The MC is being questioned by a policeman, following the discovery of a body. I have now added 300 words that make a huge difference, as the dialogue has much more meaning, now that the MC had introduced himself.

I think you are less than enamoured of how-to-write books (?) Time to publish your own, perhaps? :)

I had a look for "Logical Chess" but it's not available in the library. I'm pretty sure I read it aeons ago. I'm not sure I really need it, anyhow, as I have played chess at competition levels and I have several other books on chess strategy, notably Point Count Chess by Horowitz et al., and Nimzowitsch's (rare and wonderful) My System. Am I right in assuming your direction to read Logical Chess is aimed at people who don't actually play the game (much)?

I can see several problems with the analogy: First, chess is a battle between two opposing minds. Each of my moves will be countered by my opponent and his move choices will influence mine. Where's the opposing mind in writing fiction? Second, a game of chess is not predetermined. None of the moves (apart from the first) can be written down beforehand except as conditionals (if he does this, then I'll do that). I have to have a detailed plot outline in place before I start to write. I can't write a book by making it up, one chapter at a time. Third, in chess, you can't move any of your main pieces (characters) without first moving one of your minor ones. (The knights are exceptions, of course). Fourth, which of your chess pieces stands for your main character? The king? He hardly moves before the endgame. The queen? It is considered unwise to move her too early. The rooks are no good; They're hemmed in at the corners until the mid-game. So, we're left with the bishops and the knights. That's four equal characters...

I suppose I'm missing the point as usual...

euclid

07-14-2009, 05:53 PM

That sounds a lot like something out of a how-to-write book.

Have you found this to be true of any published work you've ever read?

The Price of the Stars does a pretty good job along these lines!

vox

07-14-2009, 07:30 PM

If I understand correctly (which is never a given), I think Uncle Jim's chess tie-in is less a literal reference to the elements in a story and more about understanding the abilities and limitations of your pieces (characters & events) and putting them in positions in which they can move the story forward. That's my layman's take on it, anyway.

James D. Macdonald

07-15-2009, 01:43 AM

Yes, it's my interpretation of what I've been reading in how-to-write books. It seems fairly non-controversial, though. It must be important to make a connection (a bond) between MC and reader as early as possible. The reader has to care about the MC and what happens to him/her.

All that's required for the reader to bond to a character is for that character to appear. Readers are like baby ducks that way: they'll imprint on and follow the first moving object they see. That's why it's good for the first moving character the readers see to be the main character.

I have a number of examples from Maass's book. The Road, by Cormac McCarthy is one that I've actually got here.

The road is a dead-standard piece of post-apocalyptic science fiction. The difference between McCarthy's piece and any random Baen book in the same subgenre is if it were published by Baen they'd have cleaned up the punctuation and spelling, and it wouldn't have been reviewed in The New Yorker.

In the case of my own book, Chapter 1 used to start with dialogue: The MC is being questioned by a policeman, following the discovery of a body. I have now added 300 words that make a huge difference, as the dialogue has much more meaning, now that the MC had introduced himself.

We've just finished several threads on starting novels with dialog elsewhere in this forum (and I'm sure it'll come around again). The reason you should think carefully about starting a book with dialog is that it's very easy to do badly.

I think you are less than enamoured of how-to-write books (?) Time to publish your own, perhaps? :)

Yeah, someday. Meanwhile, read back through the couple-hundred pages of this thread.

I had a look for "Logical Chess" but it's not available in the library. I'm pretty sure I read it aeons ago. I'm not sure I really need it, anyhow, as I have played chess at competition levels and I have several other books on chess strategy, notably Point Count Chess by Horowitz et al., and Nimzowitsch's (rare and wonderful) My System. Am I right in assuming your direction to read Logical Chess is aimed at people who don't actually play the game (much)?

No, my direction to read Logical Chess is aimed at people who want to learn to write. In brief: It explains every move. The goal is to have a reason for everything you do. You need to put your pieces (and your pawns) in the places where they are most likely to do you some good later on, even if you don't know now what that good will be.

I can see several problems with the analogy: First, chess is a battle between two opposing minds. Each of my moves will be countered by my opponent and his move choices will influence mine. Where's the opposing mind in writing fiction?

The usual name for the opposing mind in writing fiction is "conflict." You, the author, are making it tough for your characters to reach their goal.

Second, a game of chess is not predetermined.

It totally is. Either white will win, or black will win, or there will be a draw.

None of the moves (apart from the first) can be written down beforehand except as conditionals (if he does this, then I'll do that). I have to have a detailed plot outline in place before I start to write. I can't write a book by making it up, one chapter at a time.

Oh really? And where exactly does that plot outline come from?

I have a great anecdote about Blackburne that's relevant here, but which I'll save for another time.

I can see I'm going to have to import a post from another thread and disassemble it here.

Third, in chess, you can't move any of your main pieces (characters) without first moving one of your minor ones. (The knights are exceptions, of course).

In chess the game doesn't start until something moves. In novels, the same.

Fourth, which of your chess pieces stands for your main character? The king? He hardly moves before the endgame. The queen? It is considered unwise to move her too early. The rooks are no good; They're hemmed in at the corners until the mid-game. So, we're left with the bishops and the knights. That's four equal characters...

None of them stand for your main character. Or, they're all main characters. If you were to ask the apothecary in Romeo and Juliette, "Who's the main character?" he'd say, "There's this apothecary, y'see....." (Next assignment: Watch Shakespeare in Love.) The characters aren't the point of your novel anyway: The climax is the point. The moment when someone says "Checkmate!" That is the point.

I suppose I'm missing the point as usual...

Perhaps. You're familiar with Alice in Wonderland?

James D. Macdonald

07-15-2009, 02:16 AM

It's stupid question time. I'm nearing the end of my story and I'm wondering how would I know if an epilogue is necessary.

You feel like it.

Your beta readers ask for it.

Your editor suggests it.

Think of your epilogue as your curtain calls. It's removed from the climax. It presents a different view of the characters. And ... Some of your audience is already headed for the exits.

FOTSGreg

07-15-2009, 02:28 AM

Uncle Jim wrote in response to a chess analogy for main characters, None of them stand for your main character. Or, they're all main characters. If you were to ask the apothecary in Romeo and Juliette, "Who's the main character?" he'd say, "There's this apothecary, y'see....." (Next assignment: Watch Shakespeare in Love.) The characters aren't the point of your novel anyway: The climax is the point. The moment when someone says "Checkmate!" That is the point.

I would posit that all of White or Black's pieces are your main character and your antagonist(s), respectively. Each and every piece represents some small portion of the character and his or her personality. Every move represents one of that character's actions in a work.

The job of the writer is to place enough blocks in the way of White's moves that Black does not seem like a totally impotent opponent and actually chalenges White to be daring, to do things that Black simply cannot predict.

White needs to be a Grand Master or incredibly, incredibly lucky and count on Black making one helluva' mistake because Black IS a Grand Master if the writer is good enough and throws enough obstacles in the way of White's victory.

In a novel, a loss by White or even a stalemate simply isn't good enough in most cases.

Or, Uncle Jim, am I completely off base?

(The above assumes that White is the protagonist and a novel where the protagonist eventually wins out in the end)

James D. Macdonald

07-15-2009, 02:40 AM

Okay, to thrash another post from another thread.

The thread is: Five irrefutable reasons you need to outline your story before you write it. (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144944)

(If you're interested in knowing those five irrefutable reasons, they're:

1) Because I said so,
2) Because I said so,
3) Because I said so,
4) Because I said so, and
5) Because I said so.)

Be that as it may. The OP says:

I say this is an insane way to write a book. Why? Because you can develop the story, or at least 95 % of it, BEFORE you write a draft. You can engage in the very same wonderful creative exploration process without spending two months of your life writing a draft. When you become an architect of your story in the form of a blueprint, or a sequential outline and a list of checklist-driven components -- imagine a builder arriving at a job site with the intention of "just start building" with the hope of coming up with a functional design after several tries... even King and Deaver would think this is nuts... -- it all goes faster, it's smoother, it's clearer, and it takes a fraction of the time. And what you end up with is orders of magnitude BETTER than if you just winged it.

Where he goes badly wrong is this:

The novel on the bookstore shelves is not analogous to a finished building ready for occupancy. The novel on the bookstores shelves is the blueprint for the work of art that the reader will construct in his or her head.

Do you know how the architect arrived at the blueprints he's holding the day construction starts?

You do not.

Maybe the architect drew dozens (or hundreds) of sketches. Maybe he built a model. Maybe she fired up the CAD program. Maybe he figured out where the plumbing was going to run and planned outward from that. Maybe she looked at the landscape, considered contrasting siding materials, then worked inward to what kind of structure would be needed to support them. Maybe it came to him in a dream. Maybe the architect spent a week on the plans. Maybe the architect spent a year on them.

You don't know. You don't care. And it doesn't matter what the process was.

At some point in the process you're just going to have to wing it. Even if you're the most detail-oriented obsessive-compulsive in the world and you plan the plan to make your plans ... at some level you're just going to have to make stuff up.

Either that or find a job outside of the creative arts.

FOTSGreg

07-15-2009, 03:22 AM

Uncle Jim wrote, Do you know how the architect arrived at the blueprints he's holding the day construction starts?

Actually, I kinda' do having been involved in the process quite a few time, but your analogy is well-taken (and I'm using your index card routine for GATED and finding it is vastly, I mean VASTLY, improving where I am and where I'm going with this book) - the writing's better, the plotting is infinitely better, and the characters are so improved over anything I've ever done before it's just ridiculous. I sit down at the keyboard and pull up the document, check my outline t see where I'm going and I'm off to the races.

euclid

07-15-2009, 04:06 AM

At some point in the process you're just going to have to wing it. Even if you're the most detail-oriented obsessive-compulsive in the world and you plan the plan to make your plans ... at some level you're just going to have to make stuff up.

I agree totally. No argument from me. I work from an outline and make stuff up all day, every day as I write.

Ken Schneider

07-15-2009, 04:37 AM

I wing it because I like to surprise myself as ideas and tangents come to me with prior knowledge of what's been written previous to the point I am in the story. I have a vague idea of things that will happen in the begining the middle and the end. Most if not all the time these idea evolve and change, because of what I've already written.

The only exception to this is my story idea, which doesn't change.

As in the current WIP. Three orphans escape from an oppressive orphanage and find themselves in a broken down magic amusement park.

That is enough info for me to start writing.

First, cause enough problems for the orphans to want to or have to leave the orphanage.

Second, fear of recapture and problems in flight from same.

Third, A twist in the escape that is unpredictable and puts them in a worse spot.

Fourth, more running and problems and trouble and the need to form a plan to get back to square one, save themselves and others because it's good and right, with having achieved some great service or action in a manner that paints them in a great light as seen by the other characters and the reader.

Whew! I hope that all make sense. It does to me.

The moral. Do what works for you. There is no right and wrong, only write.
I like to wing it, I'm not limited by anything but my imagination.

Perle_Rare

07-15-2009, 05:09 AM

The thread is: Five irrefutable reasons you need to outline your story before you write it. (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144944)

(If you're interested in knowing those five irrefutable reasons, they're:

1) Because I said so,
2) Because I said so,
3) Because I said so,
4) Because I said so, and
5) Because I said so.)

*sigh* I wish I had started with an outline. However, I just felt like writing and as I wrote, the main character went off and did a bunch of unexpected things which delighted me so I kept writing.

Problem is, the MC eventually became stagnant and I found myself forced to get her from point A to point B where I thought more fun stuff could happen. And again from point B to point C where even more fun stuff could happen.

As I re-read my manuscript, it became very apparent that the plot doesn't make sense. So now, I'm working on the outline. Then, I'll go back and fix the novel. *sigh*

Thanks Uncle Jim for your words of wisdom. I just wish I'd paid attention sooner...

Ruth2

07-15-2009, 05:27 AM

I balk at "outline" (choke, gag, ugh-- leftover from junior high probably) but I can do synopses until forever. So I make my synopsis my outline.

Calliopenjo

07-15-2009, 05:36 AM

To be able to write from an outline. To create an outline. For me, my muse tells me the story as I go along. I learned a long time ago that outlines don't do me any good because as I'm looking at it, I get the "What If. . ." thing in my head and I go off track from the outline.

So what do I do?

I create. I write. I wing it during my writing process as I search for details and information to include.

I know it's highly unorganized and probably a "True Sign of An Amateur."

James D. Macdonald

07-15-2009, 06:25 AM

I balk at "outline" (choke, gag, ugh-- leftover from junior high probably) but I can do synopses until forever. So I make my synopsis my outline.

You shouldn't make your outline for your novel be one of those insane Roman Numeral things (http://www.albany.edu/eas/170/outline.htm).

Or, you could. If that's what works for you.

An outline is a tool, not a pair of handcuffs.

An outline can be in prose English at novel length and divided into chapters if that's what works for you.

Ken Schneider

07-15-2009, 06:29 AM

An outline can be in prose English at novel length and divided into chapters if that's what works for you.

That's secrete code for, wing it.http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Salis

07-15-2009, 06:53 AM

Crepuscular would be a good book title.

Ruth2

07-15-2009, 07:18 AM

I've done one of those prose things as an outline. Saved my bacon too when I got sick and couldn't write for three years. Talk about putting your work aside to get a fresh look-- eek! But with the synopsis I picked right back up where I left off. Sweet....

FOTSGreg

07-15-2009, 07:28 PM

5bcarnies

07-16-2009, 10:22 AM

My muse and I write the outline. The outline to me is the plot driven story. The actual writing makes it character driven.

I don't know what the characters will say or what they will do precisely that will trigger the events in the outline. I've planned several times that character A will do one thing for such and such to happen. Then they'll say or do something that will cause a different character to do what I had planned in midtype. I didn't intentionally make it happen. It flowed that way. But if it hadn't had been for the outline I would have lost track of that particular plot.

5bcarnies

07-16-2009, 11:11 AM

Uncle Jim, quick question here.

Ways back you mentioned that Courier was the best font to use. I've switched everything from Times New Roman to Courier and I like it a lot. It is very easy to read on my eyes, especially after being on the computer all night.

My question is thus...

I've been reading the 2009 version of Writer's Market and it states to use TNR. Have things changed since you made those earlier posts? Or should I go with the flow and just double check what the agent/publisher lists as their desired font?

James D. Macdonald

07-16-2009, 02:34 PM

Or should I go with the flow and just double check what the agent/publisher lists as their desired font?

The guidelines for the market always take precedence.

Meanwhile, if not stated, while Times New Roman may be acceptable, Courier is acceptable.

Nateskate

07-17-2009, 02:20 AM

Uncle Jim, That insane Roman numeral thing was the way I was taught to outline and it kept me cuffed for years (decades really). It's so darned rigid and unforgiving, but it's what was required in college (and even high school).

The index card method and even the chapter rough notes method is much more liberating and flexible.

Some try to put creativity into a formula, and thereby squelch it. I learned a great deal in college. But I also learned that much of what I learned was not practical, and that some of the teachers were theorists who'd never had to make things work in the real world. Because of that they had a certain rigidity and some took self-importance to an absurd level.

It's interesting when we poll published writers, they're split in terms of outline vs. no outline. Of course, my origional draft may not come from an outline- but it in fact is an outline, because none of the origional draft exists within the story. Maybe I'd have had more success if I used an outline. But for me it's late in the game to go back.

smsarber

07-17-2009, 02:26 AM

I do not recommend my methods, I want to say that first. I don't outline, or plot. I get an idea, and start writing. Somwhere in the beginning I decide if it's a short story or a novel-length piece. If during the writing I see parts from later in the story, I jot them down in a notebook. My first novel ended up a 53,000 word outline, telling the complete story, and giving me a good first draft to work from. The novel I'm working on now will probably end up the same way. So, that's what I do, and for me, it's the right way. I tried some outlining and plotting in the beginning, but realized that (maybe due to my stubbornness and need to rock the boat) as soon as I decided the path any part of the story would take and plotted it or outlined it, I would immediately change it. Of course, that still happens in the "first-draft-as-outline" method, sometimes.

smsarber

07-17-2009, 03:39 PM

xXFireSpiritXx

07-17-2009, 03:57 PM

I usually work with an outline. For my latest WIP I didn't and while things worked well for the first half, I came to a grinding halt when my MC looked up at me and was like "what now". I thus outlined the last half of the novel and instead of being stuck in writer's block hell" for a while I can now proceed.

BUT, I do not believe you always have to outline. Some projects will require it more than others. I really enjoyed allowing my MC to take over, but in the end during the rewrites I will have a lot more restructuring than if I did outline.

Ruth2

07-17-2009, 04:07 PM

@smsarber-- Only if the writing is clunky do I have a problem. Otherwise I get right in the "dream" and enjoy myself

Exir

07-17-2009, 05:25 PM

Here's a question that really doesn't have to do with writing novels, but it does in a sideways kind of way. Does being a writer, and studying books as you read them, ever take some of the enjoyment out of reading? When I read a book for the first time I try to turn off the writer in me, and just focus on the pleasure of reading. But sometimes I find myself analyzing the prose so much that I have to go back and re-read sections because I don't remember the actual plot, point, dialogue, etc...

I try not to look at the fine points of prose, and instead focus on the more overarching issues of plot, character and their interactions. And reading with a writer's mind has actually IMPROVED my enjoyment of stories I read. I always feel a kind of awe when a writer pulls off what I thought was impossible.

FOTSGreg

07-17-2009, 05:57 PM

What I first thought was the first draft for my book Hatchings turned out to be the outline at 65k. Seven rewrites later it sat at 80k.

For some novelists an outline can apparently benearly as large as the book itself and I've heard of outlines that were 50k or more and authors who regularly outline at that level.

MiltonPope

07-17-2009, 06:35 PM

My first novel ended up a 53,000 word outline, telling the complete story, and giving me a good first draft to work from.

I spent many months working on characters and events, researching the major elements I thought I needed. Then in November I kept up with NaNoWriMo, and dumped over 50,000 words onto paper, with scenes written in whichever order they came to me. I've read it over once and taken notes, but now I'm working on the real first draft Which I'm calling the second draft, to impress my friends.

--Milton

MiltonPope

07-17-2009, 06:42 PM

Here's a question that really doesn't have to do with writing novels, but it does in a sideways kind of way. Does being a writer, and studying books as you read them, ever take some of the enjoyment out of reading? When I read a book for the first time I try to turn off the writer in me, and just focus on the pleasure of reading. But sometimes I find myself analyzing the prose so much that I have to go back and re-read sections because I don't remember the actual plot, point, dialogue, etc...

Actually, I'm enjoying my fiction reading more, now that I'm trolling for techniques. One book I've appreciated more than any other is Dean Koontz's Strangers. I tried to read it a while back, but found my Internet-addled brain wasn't keeping up. But now that I've started work on draft 2 of my WIP, I'm enjoying it very much.

By the way, drinking from the online firehose isn't good for me. It makes me far too willing to read the lead paragraph and go to the next piece, because there is always a next piece. I've started reading most of my fiction via audiobook in the car. It's turning into a character flaw, I think.

--Milton

James D. Macdonald

07-18-2009, 12:50 AM

Being a writer means that you will read differently than you did before.

Dale Emery

07-18-2009, 01:06 AM

Being a writer means that you will read differently than you did before.

Lately I'm annoyed by the truth of this. As I read for pleasure, I frequently stumble over constructions, words, techniques, and artifices that I did not notice before I started writing in earnest.

On one hand, this it means I now make distinctions that I didn't make before. That's good for my writing.

On the other hand, it means I now make distinctions that I didn't make before. That's bad for my pleasure reading. I recently reread one of my favorite novels, and I didn't like it very much.

On the other hand, this annoyance is steering me toward writers who are more in control of their writing, which gives me examples that I can both read for pleasure and study for learning.

On the other hand... no, wait... I only have three hands.

Dale

Berry

07-18-2009, 02:27 AM

... while Times New Roman may be acceptable, Courier is acceptable.

Also, while you are writing, you can use anything you like. Do 18 point Comic Sans pink on turquoise B3 pages if that helps, as long as whatever you print out or save to submit meets market requirements, usually black on white 12 pt Courier or TNR double spaced with 1 inch margins.

And remember, if you have a terrific story no one is going to reject it because your bottom margin is 3/4 inch or you used "###" instead of "#" for section breaks; likewise absolutely perfect formatting won't save a crappy story.

MiltonPope

07-18-2009, 03:51 AM

I promise you faithfully, there isn't a publisher anywhere whose rejection slips read, "Sorry! Too well-written and original for us!"

Although there is the legend of the Chinese magazine that said:

“We have read your manuscript with boundless delight, and if we were to publish your paper, it would be impossible for us to publish any work of a lower standard. And, as it is unthinkable that in the next thousand years we shall see its equal, we are, to our regret, compelled to return your divine composition and beg you a thousand times to overlook our short sight and timidity.”

MumblingSage

07-18-2009, 04:05 AM

smsarber

07-18-2009, 04:10 AM

Scribhneoir

07-18-2009, 05:08 AM

Oh, no... it's not that I rip it apart. I just focus on it too much, trying to learn from it, that I sometimes lose sight of the sheer enjoyment.

When you read a book the first time, read it for pleasure. Then go back and read it for craft.

I majored in film studies and we always had to watch each film twice in class for just that reason. The first time was to enjoy the film (or not -- my Nazi Cinema class was fascinating, but not because of the actual films we were forced to endure); the second time was to study it.

smsarber

07-18-2009, 06:39 AM

Somehow my point was missed. Oh well, it happens.

euclid

07-18-2009, 10:43 AM

I'm reading a debut novel: Child 44 by Tom Rob Smith. Has anybody else read this book? I have serious editorial problems with it. Maybe it's just my poor understanding of everything literature. :D

Dale Emery

07-18-2009, 11:10 AM

I'm reading a debut novel: Child 44 by Tom Rob Smith. Has anybody else read this book? I have serious editorial problems with it.

My non-writer wife loved it. I recently bought the audio version, but haven't listened yet.

Dale

Ken Schneider

07-18-2009, 11:57 PM

Being a writer means that you will read differently than you did before.

Does for me.

I find myself looking at and breaking down setences for the real meaning of the content, as in UJ's line by line.

I also say, that sentence doesn't sound right, or is too discriptive, or flowery.

I remember years ago just reading and enjoying books, not questioning what was written or even seeing any problems.

I guess, as writers, we should be encouraged to know that a good story goes further with the reader than it does with us. If we could just get past the editor.

sleepsheep

07-19-2009, 07:48 PM

Does for me.

I find myself looking at and breaking down setences for the real meaning of the content, as in UJ's line by line.

I also say, that sentence doesn't sound right, or is too discriptive, or flowery.

I remember years ago just reading and enjoying books, not questioning what was written or even seeing any problems.

I guess, as writers, we should be encouraged to know that a good story goes further with the reader than it does with us. If we could just get past the editor.

While I read a lot of genre fiction, especially sci-fi, I write anything but that. Still, I find that the more I write, the slower I read. I pay more attention to sentence structure than I ever did before. Also, my reading is noticeably slower when I'm in the midst of intensive writing, although that's not at all conscious.

MumblingSage

07-20-2009, 03:39 AM

Oh, no... it's not that I rip it apart. I just focus on it too much, trying to learn from it, that I sometimes lose sight of the sheer enjoyment. Then I have to go back and re-read. Not really a bad thing, all in all. Sometimes I find I get a lot more out of the book than I would have three years ago. And it really is better the second, third, and fourth times, case-in-point, The Stand. Everytime I read that one now I'm amazed at the intricity Stephen King keeps up throughout the very long and complex novel. I think we can all learn a lot about super-complex plots and keeping numerous characters in play by reading The Stand over-and-over.
Pardon the hyperbole in my post, then--I myself tend to 'rip apart' prose when I read. I guess I'm just indelicate that way.

I guess it might come down to the question of what you would value most: enjoying the book, or learning something from it? If you'd rather learn, at least at the time, don't worry about whether or not you're overthinking things.

For the record, I think I both enjoyed and learned from The Stand. I know some people really dislike Stephen King, but I loved how authentic the characters were. I kept trying to analyze how on Earth he did such a frickin' awesome job--but I kept having to give up and just enjoy reading it.

FOTSGreg

07-21-2009, 02:51 AM

Bumping this thread back to the 1st page.

Ken Schneider

07-21-2009, 04:52 AM

Bumping this thread back to the 1st page.

Don't bump. If there aren't any good questions it should sink away.

That's UJ's take on it, not mine.

But since you did.

I just finished my current whip, and am itching to start the next.

I know what the next book is about and how to get it started.

But, I feel like I should take some time off, a week or so to think it over while I do some trail hiking.

Any thoughts about plowing through to the next work, versus taking a short break?

smsarber

07-21-2009, 05:28 AM

I vote for sitting at the computer, and staring at a blank screen until 250 words come out.

Calliopenjo

07-21-2009, 05:56 AM

Hi Ken,

The first thing I tell anybody is to do what you think you should do. If you think taking a break is best go for it. It works for a lot of people especially after spending umpteen hours at the computer taking this out, putting this in, transfer this, transfer that, need more here.

If you think you can sit at the computer and write a quality piece right after finishing you current go for it. Sometimes ideas come and you think it's good until. . . So much for that idea. Delete and try again. Plus and minus sides for both.

My two cents.

Alphabeter

07-21-2009, 06:31 AM

I always try and take some kind of rest between WiPs, even if its just a nap and a snack. I need to let go of the previous project and all its detritus. A fresh slate gives me the focus to start ... on a new set of problems.

I found that rushing into a new (even if its old revisited) piece without the "clearing" tended to recreate the same issues and I sometimes couldn't finish because multiple projects became blurred. I then got too frustrated to sort each all out.

Exir

07-21-2009, 06:55 AM

Another thing that we writers should always keep in mind is that we are storytellers, not prose stylists, so we shouldn't over-concentrate on prose at the expense of things like plot, character, theme, emotion, setting, imagination, etc. I'm not saying prose isn't important -- even non-writers can instinctively "taste" bland, uninspired, or faulty prose even if they can't put a finger to it. However, writing that is funny and evocative will work even if it contains too much adverbs and adjectives. Take Harry Potter. When I was younger I read through them without feeling anything wrong about the prose. Now that I re-read the earlier books (1-3) I find places that feel a bit clunky to me, but I still enjoy reading them immensely because the writing evokes a very clear image for me. Not that I only read them for pleasure -- it's that even when I'm analysing it, I make sure to concentrate on the overall story, and see how she treats it.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/benjamin_zander_on_music_and_passion.html

The talk is about classical music and piano, but I highly recommend it nonetheless -- it contains important lessons that we can learn for writing as well. Benjamin Zander explains that the most important difference between beginner piano players and advanced piano players is that beginners play each note with an impulse, one note at a time, while advanced piano players play the entire melody as one single impulse (what he humorously calls "one buttock playing" for reasons you will have to watch the video to understand).

James D. Macdonald

07-21-2009, 07:02 AM

If you really, really feel the need to bump any thread, please do it with an on-topic, thought-provoking question or observation.

For example:

Let's look back a few years to some total nonsense that nevertheless got published in Salon: The confessions of a semi-successful author (http://dir.salon.com/story/books/feature/2004/03/22/midlist/index.html)

I commented about it at the time.

But I'm going to comment on it more, because it's still ripe for mockery.

Let me give "Jane Austen Doe" some advice.

1) Don't kid yourself. You aren't a midlist author. Frontlist money and backlist sales don't average out to midlist.

2) That first book of yours, the one that's out of print, but people still ask about? I'm sure it's reverted by now. Find a small press that'll put it back into print. Don't expect a six-figure advance. Don't hold out for a five-figure advance. Heck, take a publisher with decent distribution and forget the advance. You aren't getting any money or any readers with it right now, are you?

3) That ghostwriting gig? That's good money and it's easy work. See if your agent can round up more of those. Do one a year and think of it as your day job.

4) The single-author collection of short stories? What are you, nuts? Sure, do it if you must, but don't let it keep you from writing books. That's where the money is.

5) Consider a pseudonym. The DAW Books Witness Protection Program was made for people like you. You can write publishable prose and that's a rare quality. Start over as someone new. Yeah, you'll get first-book advances. No, first-book advances aren't generally $100K. Take anything that's offered and be grateful to get it.

6) News Flash: Publishing didn't just become a business. It's been a business for centuries.

7) Don't be an idiot when it comes to money. Treat every check as if it's your last ... because it could be.

8) Write your damned book. And stop whining. No one loves a whiner.

James D. Macdonald

07-21-2009, 08:09 AM

Plots? We got plots!

http://oaks.nvg.org/folktale-types.html

Exir

07-21-2009, 08:15 AM

Thanks Uncle Jim! The link doesn't work though.

James D. Macdonald

07-21-2009, 08:31 AM

Fixed

Exir

07-21-2009, 08:37 AM

Thanks a lot! You are, as ever, very patient and helpful.

MiltonPope

07-21-2009, 10:07 PM

Any thoughts about plowing through to the next work, versus taking a short break?

I heard of one 19th century chap (was it Trollope?) who would finish a book, draw a heavy line across the page, take a deep breath, and start the next book on the same page.

Okay, I won't be doing that.

--Milton

Loretta

07-21-2009, 11:03 PM

I really think you should go with your mood, or muse, or whatever you want to call it. There have been times I've let a piece set for quite awhile, other times when I've let it set for a couple of weeks and done nothing else at all before I go back and look at it. Then there was one instance, that I couldn't continue with what I was writing until I broke away and wrote this short story that kept nudging at me. The short story was taken, so I think following my instincts was the route to take. If you feel like moving forward... GO...if you feel drained...give it a rest. Sometimes you can tear something up by continuing when you haven't let it "cure" a bit. And unless you're highly motivated to start a new work, back off for awhile...the muse doesn't play hide and seek for long:)

Calliopenjo

07-22-2009, 12:32 AM

And unless you're highly motivated to start a new work, back off for awhile...the muse doesn't play hide and seek for long:)

:cry:I beg to differ. Mine was on vacation for five years.

Calliopenjo

07-22-2009, 12:38 AM

(To be taken with humor.):roll:

9% Love no longer universal theme.
12% Too many hyphens.
22% Misspelled the word hyphen on page 367,
20% Cover had Oprah disapproval sticker.
18% Agent not in story as promised.
19% Could be fatally exciting.

Taken from an email from a writing group member.

James D. Macdonald

07-22-2009, 02:00 AM

Today's official weirdness:

A poem that Doyle wrote over thirty years ago (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3680244&postcount=1), written on a guard tower in Iraq (http://slickdj3.deviantart.com/art/Song-of-the-Shield-Wall-46629837).

NicoleJLeBoeuf

07-22-2009, 03:17 AM

3) That ghostwriting gig? That's good money and it's easy work. See if your agent can round up more of those. Do one a year and think of it as your day job.
I resemble that! :-) No ghostwriting, but I've been picking up small content-writing gigs lately for places like Demand Studios and Constant Content, and before that I did how-to career self-help books for a niche press. Much of it work-for-hire, it's true, and not what I was thinking of when I decided to be a writer when I grew up... BUT "it's my day job," I'd tell myself, "and it's a day job I can work from home without even getting out of bed. And I'm getting money for writing. That's cool!"

That, plus enough mad time management skillz to make sure the fiction is still moving along--a scene a day, a draft or rewrite a week, whatever it takes to get something new in the slush each month--is enough to keep me feeling like I'm moving in the right direction.

Ken Schneider

07-22-2009, 04:38 AM

Calliopenjo

07-22-2009, 05:28 AM

HConn

07-22-2009, 06:19 PM

James D. Macdonald

07-22-2009, 08:39 PM

A couple of years ago I did a week on the Appalachian Trail (in the White Mountains -- it was like a week on a Stairmaster). It was great.

FOTSGreg

07-23-2009, 01:29 AM

Uncle Jim, I've got one of those annoying questions for you.

I've got a story where a secondary character is an AI computer/ship. Normally, proper names for ships would be italicized, but in this case the ship's also a secondary character and it might, if this thing ever saw publication, be annoying to the copysetter(s) to italicize every instance of the ship's name or every time it's referred to.

Do you think it would be okay just to keep the name non-italicized even though it might be technically incorrect (I'd use it once, at the start of the story just to make it clear that this is the ship's name and then drop it thereafter)?

Naturally, I am underlining where the italics should be in this case...

James D. Macdonald

07-23-2009, 02:14 AM

Greg, which answer is likely to a) not confuse the readers, b) not annoy the readers, and c) be consistent?

(And must the AI-as-character name and the ship's name be the same? In 2001, note HAL 9000 and Discovery.)

FOTSGreg

07-23-2009, 02:43 AM

Um, Good answer...

Honestly, that's an excellent answer to my question and one that I can easily work into the story.

Hah! Actually, that works perfectly as I'd already given the ship 2 different designations.

Thanks much!

NicoleJLeBoeuf

07-23-2009, 05:10 AM

I'm taking to the trails for a week,alone.

I need to spew the last WIP from my soul, and toddle along a path shaded by bent boughs full of summer leaves, and tread through strips of sunlight like mile posts. Through a meadow ripe with Queen Ann's lace, dotted with wildflowers, with a curious hummingbird as my companion, and find a lone tree on some far away hilltop to lean my back against.
That sounds lovely, Ken. WANT! Watch out for them hummingbirds, though - they can be tenacious when they think you know something they don't!

Wow.
Indeed. It immediately reminded me of this (http://www.drak.net/news/2009/07/06/our-message-is-on-the-wall/), and I wondered whether they were the same wall or at least part of the same structure. They're certainly part of the same spirit.

I think that someone finding one's writing personally meaningful enough, or inspirational enough, to pass it along in this manner, must be the very fulfillment of why we become writers.

James D. Macdonald

07-24-2009, 12:48 AM

The Unspeakable Horror of the Literary Life (http://www.storytellersunplugged.com/apparently-i-write-like-a-girl), Part 29,308,543.

Calliopenjo

07-24-2009, 06:10 AM

I can't imagine the frustration he must have suffered. Poor guy.

James D. Macdonald

07-24-2009, 07:31 AM

What you're seeing there is catastrophic loss of faith in the editor. And it's the editor's fault.

Elidibus

07-24-2009, 07:50 AM

What you're seeing there is catastrophic loss of faith in the editor. And it's the editor's fault.

What I want to know is why the first editor sent it out to a second one in the first place? Or, is that what this entire deal is about? That if they were both happy with the draft they collaborated on, why use a second editor?

GD Marks

07-24-2009, 08:37 AM

What I want to know is why the first editor sent it out to a second one in the first place? Or, is that what this entire deal is about? That if they were both happy with the draft they collaborated on, why use a second editor?

I thought the publisher sent it out to the second editor, after the first editor submitted a revised and mutually acceptable piece (for the author and first editor).

Which makes it an insult to the first editor as well as the author.

gdm

James D. Macdonald

07-24-2009, 11:07 AM

I recall another anthology, many years ago.

The editor had assembled a bunch of stories, both original and reprint. This was a well-known editor, working with a well-known publisher. All's well.

Then the publisher, for reasons that seemed good to them, decided that one of the stories Needed Changes if they were going to market the book in a certain region of the country. So they passed on to one of the authors that his/her story would need to have cuts made.

As it happened, it was one of the reprint stories, so it was already out in an original version. And they were only talking about reprint money to start with. And the author said "Not only no, but heck no," or words to that effect.

Which left the editor with a 4,000 word hole in his/her anthology, with press time in one week. This was a slender anthology to start with, and the deletion (aside from affecting the balance of the entire book--anthology editors consider that sort of thing--made it unpublishably short.

A week of scrambling followed.

So this sort of thing happens. Not unknown.

Calliopenjo

07-25-2009, 06:42 AM

Hi there everyone,

The anthology article seemed to me to be. . . I don't know. . . idiotic on the editor's part. Granted we don't know just by name and there is a literary name and a real name that we use. Without a picture to go by any name we use can be a woman just as much as it could be a man. I say when in doubt either a face-to-face meeting or a "Yes this is me" picture.

Sorry about the rambling. :)

Anywho, I came across this link from another web page Boy books, girl books, kid books (http://janni.livejournal.com/588257.html)An interesting read, especially if you're former preschool teacher, about what kind of books parents ask for.

Have a good weekend.
Calliopenjo

FOTSGreg

07-27-2009, 01:20 AM

Uncle Jim, If you were going to start an e-zine specializing in a particular genre, how much money would you be willing to spend on a per word basis to pay your contributing authors?

Also, in a more novel-related vein, I've been reading quite a bit lately from some "authors" regarding what they see as the need for future novelists to "give away" substantial portions of their work until they get established in order to draw a publisher's attention. These folks have recommended using blogs and websites to publish early works and to get attention from people and publishers.

My own inclination is that these ideas are only a step or two removed from vanity sites where an author has to pay to get his work published, if you can call it that, and that it would incentivise publishers to require writers to pay to get them to even take a look at the writer's work. This is especially true in that most publishers would consider anything published on a blog or website to have been previously published and therefore would command only reprint rates.

But, more and more, recently, I'm seeing writers or "authors" recommending "giving away" some of their work in order to draw attention to themselves. What's your feeling in this regard?

(Yea! My 1000th post)!!!

Salis

07-27-2009, 01:39 AM

Well, I'm not Uncle Jim, but I can say I've seen some (now) successful writers who became successful by basically giving writing away for free on their website.

It can work. It can also not work. My opinion on the matter is that you're better off trying to get paid for it right off the bat. If no one wants to buy it... sure, why not? Put it up on a website, advertise it a little, if it takes off, you've gained a lot and risked little.

I feel it's sort of a waste of "potential money" if you haven't tried to sell it, though.

(Of course assuming you feel it is professional enough to be sold.)

This is also probably predicated on how you feel about writing. Do you badly want to make money from your writing right now? Try to sell it. Do you have a great job and don't really care about financial success of your writing right now? Well, probably still better to try and sell it first, but you've got a lot less to lose if you're doing it mostly for the love of the writing. Like all things in life, there's a lot of variables. If you have an amazing network of influential writing friends (maybe even published?), or get a lot of traffic on your blog already, of course you're going to have a much different result with giving away writing than if you get maybe 500 clicks a month.

Ken Schneider

07-27-2009, 02:03 AM

Well, I much enjoyed my few days of hiking. Spent a couple over nights under the stars, (tent), and did a lot of thinking.

It is soul healing and introspective good time. I feel more peaceful and grounded.

I suggest it to all who can hack the outdoor life.

I found myself thinking of the next WIP, and the twists and turns that it might take. Plus, the sights and sounds of both night and daily life with nature will help bring my prose to life.

I plan to take a laptop with full battery to some of the locations I visited to write as I look over the vistas.

Addicting to say the least.

James D. Macdonald

07-27-2009, 07:22 AM

Uncle Jim, If you were going to start an e-zine specializing in a particular genre, how much money would you be willing to spend on a per word basis to pay your contributing authors?

Five cents a word, minimum.

Also, in a more novel-related vein, I've been reading quite a bit lately from some "authors" regarding what they see as the need for future novelists to "give away" substantial portions of their work until they get established in order to draw a publisher's attention. These folks have recommended using blogs and websites to publish early works and to get attention from people and publishers.

Oh, you mean Cory Doctorow?

But as far as putting up early works, please, don't do it. I know of more than one author who has spent substantial amounts tracking down, buying up, and burning their early works. Or at least quietly dropping them from their bibliographies.

Just as the number one reason someone buys a book is because they read and enjoyed another work by the same author, if someone has read and loathed a work by an author subsequent sales won't happen with that reader. So posting not-ready-for-prime-time works isn't doing you any favors.

If you mean early works that were published, have reverted, and aren't getting reprinted for one reason or another ... well. I have some complete stories up on my own web page, and I have the first chapters (at least) of most of my novels posted as well.

My own inclination is that these ideas are only a step or two removed from vanity sites where an author has to pay to get his work published, if you can call it that, and that it would incentivise publishers to require writers to pay to get them to even take a look at the writer's work. This is especially true in that most publishers would consider anything published on a blog or website to have been previously published and therefore would command only reprint rates.

There's a huge line in the sand between posting work for free on your web page or your blog, and paying someone to publish it. One is self-publication, the other is vanity publication. There are all kinds of reasons to self-publish, and making money is only one of them.

Editors (generally) aren't going to be looking at your web pages anyway (though it's been known to happen). (Because it's been known to happen does not mean it's the Wave of the Future or even necessarily a good idea.)

The Baen Free Library has been an interesting experiment: Full texts of currently in-print books, offered free. The result has been an increase in sales of the print versions of the same works, to the great joy of the authors.

But, more and more, recently, I'm seeing writers or "authors" recommending "giving away" some of their work in order to draw attention to themselves. What's your feeling in this regard?

To draw attention to yourself? No. But there are lots of other motives for posting things for free on the web that aren't for the purposes of drawing attention to yourself.

The word-count I have in this thread alone is astounding, though I'm not making a dime off it, and making money isn't its point or purpose.

(Yea! My 1000th post)!!!

Go, you!

smsarber

07-27-2009, 10:38 AM

Lot's of good advice there Uncle Jim. I know I've posted some things on my blog (http://smsarber.blogspot.com/) that are not in the final draft stage. Reading what you just posted, I believe I'll be going back to delete some of that stuff. Not that it isn't good, but, esp. novel excerpts need to go... if the book gets published and those parts are changed... and that's just one reason. Thanks for a nugget of gold, there:)

Side note: I just got discharged from the hopspital yesterday. I was coughing blood again. Over a pint total. So they clotted off the pulmonary artery. I'm already coughing less. It was my 12th time in the ER, and I think 4th time admitted to the hospital this year, but maybe now I can stay out for a while. Last time I was in there, July 3-9, I wrote over 5,500 words. This time I did close to 3,000. about 1,800 on the novel I'm currently working on. I was in there from Wed. thru Sat. So maybe I want to go to the hospital more often--I seem to get good work done there! (When they did the arterial angiogram and cauterization they had to shave my nether region--at least it was a cute nurse! I told my wife that, hoping to make her jealous, all she said was "That's good, I wouldn't have wanted it to be a big sweaty man." She's such a good woman--but takes all the fun out of my teasing sometimes!!)

FOTSGreg

07-27-2009, 05:44 PM

Uncle Jim, Thanks very much for your response. Your thoughts pretty much reflect my own on the matter, but you're published professionally and I'm not so your opinion carries a whole lot more weight.

I wasn't specifically writing about Cory Doctorow, no. I've just seen this attitude starting to pop up quite a bit more, often in association with talk about e-publishing and the future of the publishing industry (Michael Stackpole had a recent blog post regarding it and there was one poster over at Asimov's forums that was advocating things that I thought would mean that publishers might ultimately be incentivized to charge authors to print their work, and there have been several other items I've seen when surfing around).

The only things I've put up on my own website and blog are things which have reverted to me long ago or which were always intended for self-publication (for free (ie the rules) unless you want the programs) anyway.

Regardless, I appreciate your response and am happy to see we're basically on the same page.

(Not that what I think matters right now :) )

smsarber

07-27-2009, 06:16 PM

Fots: What you think always matters, just as much as what you do!

euclid

07-27-2009, 08:37 PM

If anyone's interested in reading a debut thriller that has become a best-seller (I believe) on both sides of the Atlantic, take a look at Child 44 by Tom Rob Smith. I had difficulty with his (unsuccessful) attempt at writing in omniscient POV (see pp 62-67 for example) His dialogue is presented in italics with a dash and no quotes, which I found annoying. Also, his chapters have no numbers, but the premise of the book is excellent and it's a good read.

And hey, Tom, if you're in AW somewhere, congratulations !

James D. Macdonald

07-28-2009, 07:28 PM

Plots, We Got Plots, Part II. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderThanDirt)

As I've remarked elsewhere, the oldest engines pull the heaviest freight.

ToddWBush

07-28-2009, 08:02 PM

Plots, We Got Plots, Part II. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderThanDirt)

As I've remarked elsewhere, the oldest engines pull the heaviest freight.

This was more fun than I should have been having at work. Thanks Uncle Jim. Just goes to show you that nothing we writers today come up with is new or original.

James D. Macdonald

07-28-2009, 08:07 PM

His dialogue is presented in italics with a dash and no quotes....

You can use anything at all to delimit dialog. Including nothing, if that's how you roll. As long as you don't confuse the reader, you're golden.

Rules? In a novel?

AMCrenshaw

07-28-2009, 08:12 PM

Just goes to show you that nothing we writers today come up with is new or original.

with art, perhaps never think of originality as newsness. originality simply means that the creative flow is indeed yours.

amc

euclid

07-29-2009, 03:13 AM

You can use anything at all to delimit dialog. Including nothing, if that's how you roll. As long as you don't confuse the reader, you're golden.

Rules? In a novel?

Yes, but maybe not if you're trying to get a debut novel published. I think Tom Rob Smith had an inside track - established contacts in publishing

James D. Macdonald

07-29-2009, 05:58 AM

Yes, but maybe not if you're trying to get a debut novel published.

Not really.

Charles Frazier's Cold Mountain was also a first novel, also had non-standard quotation styles, and also sold very well.

You aren't going to hear editors say, >>This is a gripping story filled with fascinating characters that fits squarely into our genre, but I'm not going to buy it because it has non-standard quote-marks.<<

Maybe Tom Rob Smith had contacts in publishing and maybe he didn't (he was a scriptwriter before he turned his hand to novels), but that makes remarkably little difference. All that being the editor's best buddy gets you is a faster read, and a faster rejection if you don't have that gripping story and those fascinating characters.

Know what you're doing and why you're doing it.

Get the gripping story and the fascinating characters: Everything else follows.

smsarber

07-29-2009, 06:00 AM

Yes, but maybe not if you're trying to get a debut novel published.
But remember to push the envelope. And keep true to your voice, your style.For your debut, to your thousanth novel. Grow, improve, and most of all, have fun with your writing.

jinap

07-29-2009, 06:02 AM

Anywho, I came across this link from another web page Boy books, girl books, kid books (http://janni.livejournal.com/588257.html)An interesting read, especially if you're former preschool teacher, about what kind of books parents ask for.

The Unspeakable Horror of the Literary Life (http://www.storytellersunplugged.com/apparently-i-write-like-a-girl), Part 29,308,543.

Hey all,

I'm new to the AW forums and I was just lurking around when I clicked these links. I was wondering about all your thoughts on the 'gender' discussion - specifically whether a male protagonist is required to get a boy interested in reading a particular book. I keep reading that 'boys only read books about other boys, or boys won't read books written by a female author'.

How many guys in here read books with girls as the main character when they were growing up? Did you care that the protagonist was female? Did you actively avoid books with girls as the main character? Would you buy a book with a lead female for your son?

I'm just curious. While I'm not there yet, I'd like to write children's books. I'm going to end up writing whatever I write, but that 2nd link really unnerves me. You mean that writers can work hard and write well and get published, and still be rejected at the last second on the basis of some random editor's misconception?!

Ouch.

James D. Macdonald

07-29-2009, 06:18 AM

You mean that writers can work hard and write well and get published, and still be rejected at the last second on the basis of some random editor's misconception?!

Oh, yeah. That ain't the half of it. You should listen to writers at the bar at a convention somewhere, when it's just them talking. The whips and scorns of time have nothing on the literary life as far as making you long for that bare bodkin.

As to reading books with male/female protagonists: When I was young I read all the Nancy Drew books at the same time I was reading all the Hardy Boys books. But then I'm atypical. I grew up to be a writer.

We can say that America still has some issues that it's working through.

jinap

07-29-2009, 06:46 AM

Holy crap, I'm not sure I want to know any more writing horror stories!

It's interesting to know that you read Nancy Drew growing up. I have no brothers and I went to an all-girls primary school, so I have no clue what the boys my age were reading at the time. And even though I went to a mixed secondary school, I don't remember much about the boys' reading habits.

Where did everyone else go?

James D. Macdonald

07-29-2009, 07:04 AM

I went to a mixed-gender parochial school*, then an all-male Catholic high school.

*The same school produced two other professional SF writers: James Patrick Kelly, two years ahead of me, and Elizabeth Hand, two years behind me.

Scribhneoir

07-29-2009, 07:10 AM

On a recent trip to the library I saw a boy race up to the Nancy Drews and settle down to pick out just the right one. His sister couldn't budge him until he made his choice. I thought that was pretty cool, because until then I had no idea boys liked Nancy Drew.

jinap

07-29-2009, 07:30 AM

I've been going through this thread and it's a gold mine!

Uncle Jim, I see that you write in multiple genres.

1) a) Do you do it all under the same name?

b) I'd like to write in multiple genres as well, some under a pseudonym. How easy/hard is it to conduct all business under the fake name? (getting paid, signing contracts etc)

2) Do you work on different projects of different genres at the same time, or do you work in one genre at a time? Does it make a difference?

jinap

07-29-2009, 07:32 AM

Scribhneoir: Again with the Nancy Drews! Hm, I think I may vaguely recall some guys reading Nancy Drew as well...

*hurries off to conduct informal survey of male friends*

Krintar

07-29-2009, 09:52 AM

I keep reading that 'boys only read books about other boys, or boys won't read books written by a female author'.
Because heaven knows no boys ever read Enid Blyton, am I right?
I also keep hearing this argument, but have no clue where it came from, since it clearly has no basis in reality. I personally don't even think most kids are all that aware of who wrote the book they're reading. I know I wasn't - the story meant something, and the series it belonged to, but the author? That came (years) later.

How many guys in here read books with girls as the main character when they were growing up? Did you care that the protagonist was female? Did you actively avoid books with girls as the main character? Would you buy a book with a lead female for your son?
Me.
No (provided the story wasn't about ponies and dolls).
Heck no.
Not unless he asked for it specifically (but then, the same goes for any book; why waste money on something he might not like when it could be obtained from the library for free?).

euclid

07-29-2009, 10:32 AM

About the non-standard treatment of dialogue (using dashes iso quote marks, italics etc.)

Why would any writer want to do this?

Exir

07-29-2009, 10:42 AM

About the non-standard treatment of dialogue (using dashes iso quote marks, italics etc.)

Why would any writer want to do this?

Personally, I would reserve non-standard treatment of dialogue for very special occasions. For example, a short story that's entirely about a tense bank robbery. The dashes could convey a sense of hurry and tension. I know Cormac McCarthy uses no punctuation at all to separate dialogue from the narrative, in order to achieve a bleak, austere effect (personally I'm not a fan of that device, but plenty of people like it just fine). Italics may be used for non-standard communication like telepathy or talking with the dead, etc... it can lead to a dreamy feel, where the dialogue and the action blends together -- the difference between this and the McCarthy method being that the former feels somewhat "warmer" and less enigmatic, as there is at least something to separate dialogue from action, so we don't have to strain to tell the two apart.

Exir

07-29-2009, 10:45 AM

Using dashes for dialogue was actually nearly mainstream for a certain time period. (I think in the 30s - 40s, but I'm not sure). Thus, an author may want to let his story evoke the feel of a certain time period, just like making black-and-white movies nowadays.

ClaudiaGray

07-29-2009, 06:35 PM

About the non-standard treatment of dialogue (using dashes iso quote marks, italics etc.)

Why would any writer want to do this?

Why not, if it works? I read an excellent short story once (cannot think of the name, dangit) that was being narrated in a very believable 16-year-old feminine voice. She was talking about her night out with her friend, and all the dialogue was formatted something like:

And she was like, I Don't Think You Know What You're Doing. So I told her, I Do Too, but she just made a face.

Except the story was much better than that. The lack of quotes and initial caps on each word threw me off for about the first half a page -- and then I loved it, because it let me sink into the idea that this was all one girl's rambling conversation.

I just started CHILD 44, and so I can't give a meaningful review of the whole, but I can say this much: You don't need contacts to get published if you have a first chapter like that. It's vividly bleak, desperate and suspenseful from the very first line; there's no agent on earth who wouldn't read on.

James D. Macdonald

07-29-2009, 11:52 PM

I've been going through this thread and it's a gold mine!

Uncle Jim, I see that you write in multiple genres.

1) a) Do you do it all under the same name?

Not always.

b) I'd like to write in multiple genres as well, some under a pseudonym. How easy/hard is it to conduct all business under the fake name? (getting paid, signing contracts etc)All the contracts (and all my checks) are made out in my real name.

Depending on the state you live in, cashing checks made out to some other name may be as easy as filing a DBA (Doing Business As) at the bank.

Again depending on the local situation you can use whatever name you please, provided you aren't doing so for the purpose of fraud.

2) Do you work on different projects of different genres at the same time, or do you work in one genre at a time? Does it make a difference?Yes. No (heck, it's hard for me to point to one of my works that's all the same genre inside itself). Not to me it doesn't.

Using dashes for dialogue was actually nearly mainstream for a certain time period. (I think in the 30s - 40s, but I'm not sure).

Given that Child 44 is set in Stalinist Russia....

It's vividly bleak, desperate and suspenseful from the very first line; there's no agent on earth who wouldn't read on.

Tom Rob Smith already had an agent. And Child 44 was originally written as a film script. It was his agent who suggested re-writing it as a novel.

Calliopenjo

07-29-2009, 11:54 PM

The Mary Sue Litmus Test (http://www.onlyfiction.net/marysue2.html)

A web page that asks a series of questions to see if your character may be a Mary Sue. For a reminder of what a Mary Sue character is, according to Wikipedia, Mary Sue. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue)

I try to take these pieces of advice with a grain of salt. Take it or leave it sort of thing. Does it work for your story? Is it necessary for your story? Everybody has their own definition so please take this as a fun break away from your writing. It may inspire you.

:e2writer:

Andreya

07-30-2009, 03:36 AM

Hey all,

I'm new to the AW forums and I was just lurking around when I clicked these links. I was wondering about all your thoughts on the 'gender' discussion - specifically whether a male protagonist is required to get a boy interested in reading a particular book. I keep reading that 'boys only read books about other boys, or boys won't read books written by a female author'.

How many guys in here read books with girls as the main character when they were growing up? Did you care that the protagonist was female? Did you actively avoid books with girls as the main character? Would you buy a book with a lead female for your son?

As a girl I LOOVED Tom Sawyer & Erich Kaestner's books with boy (& sometimes girl) protagonists too.. I also loved Pippi Longstocking & other Astrid Lindgren's books with boys and/or girls as protagonists..
(I also read Heidi & such, & later on Karl May with mostly male protagonists, & Enid Blyton too..)

Not sure how it is for boys.. If you look at Harry Potter, a male protagonist (with female sidekick/s) probably helps..

Usually girls read more anyway.. (or so I read, not sure if it's still true..)
Many young boys (& some girls) hate to read, & they usually resort to comics or such.. (those helped my Sis start to enjoy reading too..)

You can test your story on some boys anyway :) & if they hate it, see if girls like it.. If everyone likes it, you likely have a hit on your hands :)

Ken Schneider

07-30-2009, 04:14 AM

One of my favorite all time books that I have beloved memories of is, Theodore Taylors, The Cay. Some twenty years after reading that book as a boy, I turned my son on to this children's novel. He loved it as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cay

With that said, I grew up with five sisters, and read mostly books with women potags because of my situation. They bought books, I read them. Even romances.

I once e-mailed Danielle Steele about my sisters and how they forced me to sit on the couch and listen/squirm as they read her early novels to me.

Danielle sent me a long rousing e-mail of how my story delighted her to no end.

So, My plan was to grab the book right from the brown paper bag, prior to my oldest sister reading it, and when they sat me down to make me suffer, I'd tell them what the whole book was about, and ruin it for them.

Mission accomplished, right? Well, not quite. I hooked myself in the process.

euclid

07-30-2009, 06:12 PM

I think this whole discussion about whether men can write women protags and vice versa doesn't apply to children's books. I mean, I think it's much easier to swap genders in a children's book.

James D. Macdonald

07-30-2009, 08:40 PM

See also: James Tiptree, Jr.

euclid

07-30-2009, 09:21 PM

See also: James Tiptree, Jr.

Another great writer to add to my "to read" list. Thanks, James

SilverPhoenix

07-30-2009, 10:35 PM

Harder for an author to be anonymous these days, even just with gender. They want photos, and there's publicity and book signings and...

I believe my writing is much better when I'm writing with a male protagonist. If I write a character that's my own gender, I'm at risk of putting too much of myself into her, consciously or subconsciously, and then that character doesn't have such a unique voice. I might get sloppy and let her talk a bit more like myself for awhile, and then that's the narrative gone to tatters.

James D. Macdonald

07-31-2009, 03:09 AM

Author photos aren't universal (or even necessary), and signings are such pains in the patootie that no one will think twice if you decide to skip the honor entirely.

Ken Schneider

07-31-2009, 03:37 AM

Author photos aren't universal (or even necessary), and signings are such pains in the patootie that no one will think twice if you decide to skip the honor entirely.

How many signings does it take to get to that point?

James D. Macdonald

07-31-2009, 04:05 AM

How many signings does it take to get to that point?

Just one, if it's bad enough.

jinap

07-31-2009, 04:51 AM

Thanks for all the interesting and informative replies.

I once e-mailed Danielle Steele about my sisters and how they forced me to sit on the couch and listen/squirm as they read her early novels to me.

Danielle sent me a long rousing e-mail of how my story delighted her to no end.

Hahaha, that's hilarious! I have a friend whose sisters used to dress him up in their clothes and put him in make-up...

It's really cool that she replied to you - I've never written to an author and if I did, I wouldn't expect a reply.

Mission accomplished, right? Well, not quite. I hooked myself in the process.

*Gasps* You're one of the mythical Men Who Read Romances? I'm honoured to meet you, sir.

FOTSGreg

07-31-2009, 05:11 AM

I've written King, Lumley, David Gerrold, Sterling Lanier, and a few others. To a one, they have all replied.

I once sent King a hardcopy of one of his books and asked him to sign it for me and included money. I sent it through his publisher. The book was returned with signature and the money I'd sent.

I've corresponded with King at least a couple times since then and he's a consummate gentleman. A couple of the others have been somewhat abrupt, but only because I was young and asking them things they really couldn't tell someone who was obviously as young as I was at the time.

Ninety-nine percent of the time when I've contacted an author, they've written me back and we've corresponded amiably (Glen Cook and J. A Konrath are recent examples).

lauraannwilliams

07-31-2009, 05:56 AM

Ken Schneider

07-31-2009, 07:35 AM

Thanks for all the interesting and informative replies.

Hahaha, that's hilarious! I have a friend whose sisters used to dress him up in their clothes and put him in make-up...

It's really cool that she replied to you - I've never written to an author and if I did, I wouldn't expect a reply.

*Gasps* You're one of the mythical Men Who Read Romances? I'm honoured to meet you, sir.

Read romance? Yes, Write it? Yes, doesn't everyone? Keep in mind that most genres contain a whisp of several other genres.

Our own James McDonald, and Deb Doyle's, Lands of Mist and Snow, though Sci-Fi, had a romantic element to it. Buy it read it, and you'll see what I mean.

Yep Greg, I've found the pubbed authors we think are untouchable very friendly. I've e-mailed a few.
Piers Anthony, and Kat Martin are a couple who are very kind. Adding that being rotten to someone wouldn't sell many books. And, you don't know who you might be typing to on AW. You'd be surprised who is here.

And, don't forget Uncle Jim. Jim has done more things for me than any of you will ever know though e-mail. He's a Saint, and if truth be known I think he's also a Druid, or Wizard, or at least a Knights Templar— incognito.

I wish UJ would teach a writer's time management class. The guy must not ever sleep!

jinap

07-31-2009, 07:51 AM

What type of romance do you write?

My surprise at author's responses isn't so much to do with thinking that they're too high and mighty, but that they get so much fan mail that they can't respond to all of it. I thought that their replies may be more along the lines of form letters.

Alphabeter

07-31-2009, 09:10 AM

Salis

07-31-2009, 09:47 AM

Huzzah! Reached. End. Of. Thread.

Awesome stuff. Thank you, Uncle Jim. Thank you, other contributors of useful knowledge.

:)

BIC is working well. Now instead of worrying about revising as I write, I worry that my story won't be long enough and that my characters have too much angst. However, the only way to resolve those fears is to keep writing until I get far enough along to answer it. It gives me a bit of motivation to keep going.

"So you think this story'll be irreconcilably flawed? Finish and Prove it!"

Man, I have the opposite problem. Kind of wish "well, I need more words!" was my problem instead. I don't think there's a lot of wordiness or anything, but capping the storyline at 100K words is looking to be one hell of a challenge. :(

K. Taylor

07-31-2009, 12:38 PM

James D. Macdonald

07-31-2009, 04:07 PM

jinap--I'm going to pose your question to Uncle Jim as he is the closest well-published author I know of (he posts here) who probably gets that kind of mail.

Jim--When someone takes the time to write you a nice letter and addresses it appropriately (ie through your agent or publisher) so that it does get to you, what is your protocol for responding? Do crayon scratches on wax foil get immediately circular-filed? Do copies of their Harry Potter/HP Lovecraft/Danielle Steele cross-over fanfic get reviewed? Or do you sic 'the boss' on the mail? I'd enjoy knowing Debra's response too.

I try to respond personally to everything. It isn't hard to get a writer to write, y'know?

One young fan sent a crayon illustration of one of our Circle of Magic books. I hung that on the refrigerator just like our own kids' artwork.

The annoying ones are when you get thirty letters all at once because some teacher made "Write to an author" be a class assignment.

James D. Macdonald

07-31-2009, 04:09 PM

James D. Macdonald

07-31-2009, 04:22 PM

Incidentally, Person is first, second, or third.

Tense is past, present, or future.

Voice is active or passive.

(Aspect is perfect or imperfect, but let's not go there.)

K. Taylor

07-31-2009, 04:52 PM

Tense is past, present, or future. I knew that. Can I blame that on having 5 hours of sleep in the past 36? :P

The section in that particular book is one full chapter, so it's already technically separated from the rest of the text.

Thanks, Uncle Jim.

lauraannwilliams

07-31-2009, 06:58 PM

Man, I have the opposite problem. Kind of wish "well, I need more words!" was my problem instead. I don't think there's a lot of wordiness or anything, but capping the storyline at 100K words is looking to be one hell of a challenge. :(

I've got 17K words (according to Google Doc's word count) and figure I'm about 1/2 to 2/3 through the plot ( they know who the bad guy is but not how to get him ). Most of that is dialog. I don't have a lot of description in there yet, or a lot of smooth transition between one scene and the next. I think this is going to be more of an outline style draft.

Once I'm done that, I have to flush out my minor characters, add description and missing scenes, split up some of the scenes, maybe figure out a subplot to add. I'm hoping at the end to have enough for an Urban Fantasy novel submission, which I think is 80-100K. That feels like a lot to add! I'm going to study a lot of my favorite books when it gets to that point, and see how they fill up pages.

This is the first time I've gotten this far in on a novel attempt. I usually get about five pages in, switch to plotting and world building, change my mind constantly, realize I have nothing -- and quit. I'm learning a lot more by actually writing. I'm going to leave the heavy duty analysis for later.

James D. Macdonald

07-31-2009, 07:11 PM

I'm learning a lot more by actually writing.

That's the way it works.

The best way to learn to write a novel is by writing a novel. (The dreadful realization comes later: All you've learned how to do is write that novel. The next novel has something else entirely to teach you.)

euclid

07-31-2009, 07:13 PM

How do you get hold of an author's address to write to them?

James D. Macdonald

07-31-2009, 07:15 PM

To:

Author
c/o Publishing House
Where Their Book
Is Published.

It's polite to include an SASE.

HapiSofi

07-31-2009, 08:49 PM

I'm wondering how best to signify a chapter that basically takes part in a dream. Besides the character noticing things are different from her real world, should there be a different font? Different tense (like 1st person)?

Every reader I've had so far has figured out what's going on as they get into that chapter, but I still don't want to confuse.
Do not put it in a different font. Jim's explanation covered that one. I'll add that just seeing the word "font" in a cover letter is enough to make my heart sink. Your notion of putting one chapter in a different font is actually one of the saner proposals I've seen. It's usually something more like "I am working on digitizing the font I have devised to accurately represent my people's language." Even when the proposed use of extra fonts is for something relatively sane, it's a great deal of trouble.

You say all your readers have figured out what's going on. That may be your answer right there: if it's not broken, don't fix it. But if you're still worried about having readers understand it's a dream, IMO you can't improve on simply telling them so at the beginning of the chapter. Really. It's an underrated device.

I know Joss Whedon gets a lot of mileage out of dream sequences that aren't labeled as such, so that viewers have to figure it out for themselves. However, he's working in TV and movies. The confusion isn't going to last very long, and neither is the dream sequence. With written fiction, it takes longer and the reader does more work. If they miss the clues at first, belatedly figuring it out is going to feel like driving over a speedbump at forty miles an hour. At minimum, they'll be bounced out of their reading-trance. That's never good.

Worse, they may resent being played with, and lose trust in you. After that, nothing you write will work as well for them as it would have if they still trusted you; and getting their trust back will be a hard slog.

Finally: a dream sequence that's an entire chapter long? I haven't seen yours, but as a general rule, dream sequences are tricky, hard to handle, and very easy to overdo. They've got a double dose of the basic problem of fantasy: in theory you can do anything, so what you do must never, ever seem arbitrary. The usual advice will serve: be parsimonious, build in internal logic, and do nothing that doesn't serve the story.

HConn

07-31-2009, 08:53 PM

Author photos aren't universal (or even necessary), and signings are such pains in the patootie that no one will think twice if you decide to skip the honor entirely.

Speaking only from my personal experience, I was contractually-required to provide an author photo (taken at my own expense) for the book. Maybe my agent could have gotten that struck from the contract, but it wasn't a fight I wanted to have.

Also, I had my first signing this past weekend at San Diego Comic-Con (actually, I had two). I suspect it was very different from the usual signing experience, since I was told where to be and when, and I had no other responsibilities besides bringing a pen I liked.

It was nice to meet people who were about to read the book (not fans, since I was signing ARCs and no one had a chance to read it yet but the bookstore staff) but I wasn't prepared for the number of people who asked for advice breaking in to publishing.

If I'd had my wits about me, I'd have directed them here.

James D. Macdonald

07-31-2009, 09:09 PM

From my own Circle of Magic, a scene begins: Randal dreamed, and knew that he was dreaming....

=========

Other unusual dream sequences: Alice in Wonderland is one long dream sequence.

One of the reasons that Wes Craven had a hard time selling Nightmare on Elm Street was that it started with a dream sequence (dream sequences in general were out of fashion at the time). As that movie progresses, the dream sequences become more frequent, and more seamlessly intertwined with the real-world action (particularly after the main character realizes what's going on and tries to keep from sleeping at all, then starts having hypnagogic hallucinations) until at the end the dream world and the waking world become one.

Really, A Nightmare on Elm Street (the first one) is a masterful use of dream sequences.

euclid

07-31-2009, 09:12 PM

My mother, who read, I think, every book that was ever published until she lost her sight, once said to me: "Whatever you write, never include a dream sequence."

euclid

07-31-2009, 09:15 PM

Child 44 by Tom Rob Smith has no information anywhere about the author. No photo, no biographical information, nothing. I thought that very strange.

James D. Macdonald

07-31-2009, 09:16 PM

Speaking only from my personal experience, I was contractually-required to provide an author photo (taken at my own expense) for the book. Maybe my agent could have gotten that struck from the contract, but it wasn't a fight I wanted to have.

For me, I've only had the contractural requirement for an author photo a couple of times, and the photo wasn't always used.

Also, I had my first signing this past weekend at San Diego Comic-Con (actually, I had two). I suspect it was very different from the usual signing experience, since I was told where to be and when, and I had no other responsibilities besides bringing a pen I liked.

Being told where to be, at what time, and only bringing a pen, has been my usual experience.

Since the early days (and some notable disasters) I've taken to doing a little bit more: I send press releases with cover flats to local newspapers a month before the signings are scheduled, because I have no faith in bookstores' ability to do any publicity at all.

It was nice to meet people who were about to read the book (not fans, since I was signing ARCs and no one had a chance to read it yet but the bookstore staff) but I wasn't prepared for the number of people who asked for advice breaking in to publishing.

That's pretty common. The second most-asked question (after "Where are the bathrooms?") is "How can I be a writer?" (and the ever popular "How much did you pay to get published?")

If I'd had my wits about me, I'd have directed them here.

There's always next time.

HConn

07-31-2009, 09:37 PM

I'm never comfortable having my picture taken or meeting people one-on-one. It's not so bad speaking to a large group, but when it's just me and a stranger, I'm a bit of a fumblemouth.

I met my editor at the con, and she told me I should get used to the idea of going out and meeting readers. I tried not to turn green.

euclid

07-31-2009, 11:20 PM

I stumbled across Ken Follett's web site. He has some guidance for first-timers. He spends a lot of time building his outline and getting other people to read and comment on his outline. He produces two draft outlines before starting to write the book. He says, for a thriller, the story should turn every 4-6 pages. A story turn can be large or small, but should increase tension.

I thought that very interesting, and went through my ms to see. My story does turn every 4 -6 pages ! I found two turns that were too close together and moved one of them. It was easy enough to do, I just had to adjust a date.

www.ken-follett.com

James D. Macdonald

08-01-2009, 12:51 AM

No photo, no biographical information, nothing. I thought that very strange.

Not that strange.

Perhaps in non-fiction it's true that "to sell the book first you have to sell the author," but over here in the world of novels that advice is, in a word, bullshit.

Salis

08-01-2009, 01:16 AM

In my opinion, jacket photos in fantasy novels should be photos of the author's disembodied brain.

"Oh, look at this book! Such a shapely cortex. I must have this novel."

Berry

08-01-2009, 04:07 AM

Being told where to be, at what time, and only bringing a pen, has been my usual experience.

Mine too, but being a bit OCD about this kind of thing, I usually take two pens, just in case.

Terry Pratchet brings (or, used to, when I had my books signed) an "Unseen University Library" rubber stamp.

IceCreamEmpress

08-01-2009, 05:24 AM

Child 44 by Tom Rob Smith has no information anywhere about the author. No photo, no biographical information, nothing.

On the book, you mean? Because his photo and biographical info appeared on the reviews (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/books/08maslin.html).

It is odd that there isn't a dust-jacket photo of him, because he seems to be quite handsome.

Alphabeter

08-01-2009, 12:34 PM

Not that strange.

Perhaps in non-fiction it's true that "to sell the book first you have to sell the author," but over here in the world of novels that advice is, in a word, bullshit.

Whereas PublishAmerica's motto is "to sell the book first you must sell to the author"!

Umm, not to be pushy, but what is your handling procedure for fanmail Jim? Are you and Debra on the same page or do you handle your own individual mail differently than that which is addressed to both of you--or for books you co-wrote?

Besides writing, publishing, Viable Paradise and hanging around here as well as your SFWA contributions, where do you find the time to be a paramedic as well? I can't remember to thank my aunt for a birthday card because I'm too busy tearing apart the chapter from three months ago!

James D. Macdonald

08-01-2009, 02:41 PM

The way to handle fanmail is to write a reply right then.

Ken Schneider

08-01-2009, 03:43 PM

I've started my new WIP, with a clear mind, after my hiking trip last week renewed my spirit. The experience has me longing for another few day of solice.

I read some of my early work, trunked, the other day. I just shook my head and laughed. Much, I'm sure, like UJ and friends when left in the Tor offices to read slush one pale moonless night.

I don't even know who the guy is that has been writing my last and current WIP. Doesn't sound like my writing when I re-read the opening.

I guess what I'm trying to say after six mostly fruitless years of fingerstroking the keyboard, nearing a million typed words, is, don't give up on your writing self too early.

Even for the most dense headed of we writers, after some years of practice, start to get it.

I feel some relief for myself that my work within the last year-and-a-half, doesn't read liike a five-year-old's instuctions on how to cook a Thanksgiving turkey.

So take heart those of you who have taken up writing recently, and reading this thread. You can do it. But, there's no quick route to being a good writer of novels.

My goal is to have one novel published by a reputable, respected, and known publisher.

The hardest part of this whole writing business was to break myself image back down from thinking I could write novels, to learning to write novels.

I'm on the upswing again.

Yes, I know I'm babbling. I'm a writer.

euclid

08-01-2009, 07:00 PM

With reference to my previous post about Ken Follett's idea that a thriller should have a story turn every 4-6 pages...

My typescript is double-spaced, and so runs to 500 pages (107,000 words). That's 214 words per page, average.

I assume he means 4-6 pages of the book as published. I can't believe that my book will run to more that 300-350 pages when published.

So what does 4-6 pages (of the published book) equate to in the typescript?

If I assume the book will work out at 350 pages (that's 305 words per page) then 500pp typescript = 350pp published. In that case

7 pages published = 10 typescript and
4-6 pages published = 6-9 typescript.

I suppose what I'm asking is how many words per page in the published book?

RJK

08-01-2009, 07:53 PM

euclid

08-01-2009, 09:32 PM

You may as well ask how big is a balloon. Paperback books with small fonts can squeeze 350 words on a page. Hardcover books with larger margins and fonts may have less than 300 WPP. The only constant you have to work from is your manuscript. Stay with that, and don't drive yourself crazy trying to convert to other formats.

Thanks, RJK. I realise there are variations. You seem to be saying 300-350 words per page is a good ballpark. I think what I need to do is get hold of one of Ken Follett's books and do a page-word count. That way I can work out how many words between story turns.

:)

In any event, it has been a useful exercise. I shuffled a few sections around for better pacing, using the basic idea.

James D. Macdonald

08-02-2009, 02:17 AM

I think you said somewhere, Jim, that the double-spaced typescript and the finished book will equate in number of pages,

I don't think I said that, because it's not true. The book's length in pages will be whatever the book's designer wants it to be.

blacbird

08-02-2009, 02:33 AM

James D. Macdonald

08-02-2009, 03:46 AM

Euclid, I have two assignments for you: First, take a Ken Follett novel. Go through it with an orange Hi-liter and high-light each plot turn. Put a yellow Post-It note flag on each of those pages so that it protrudes from the top of the book.

Close the book. Look at the flags. Then read over the high-lighted text.

Also:

Do the 2006 Christmas Challenge.

I hope you like it.

Meanwhile:

Y'all know the three-point-plot outline:

1.) Get the hero up a tree.
2.) Throw rocks at him.
3.) Get him out of the tree.

And the seven-point plot outline:

1). Introduce the main/viewpoint character
2). Present him with a problem.
3). In a particular setting.
4). The character tries to solve the problem...
5). And fails.
6). The character tries to solve the problem again...
7). And receives validation.

Well, here's a very detailed working-out of those general plot outlines:

http://www.miskatonic.org/dent.html

Y'all can try writing a story based on that plot outline as your Christmas Challenge. As always, the challenge is to actually submit the story you wrote to an appropriate paying market.

The Post Office is closed on Christmas, and the mail is nuts in the days before ... shall we say the deadline for mailing your completed story (in accordance with the market's guidelines) is 26 December?

(If you finish your story early, lay it aside and give it a final read-through-and-polish on Christmas Day.)

I think those two exercises will answer your questions.

(I took the Christmas Challenge myself. The resulting story was published, and will be reprinted here (http://14theditch.livejournal.com/285693.html).)

Next assignment for everyone, under the classification of The Unspeakable Horror of the Literary Life: find the story of Ken Follett and Heist of the Century (http://www.ken-follett.com/bibliography/the_heist_of_the_century.html). Think: If this sort of thing can happen to Ken Follett, just imagine what sort of nastiness can happen to me.

blacbird

08-02-2009, 03:56 AM

the three-point-plot outline:

1.) Get the hero up a tree.
2.) Throw rocks at him.
3.) Get him out of the tree.

There's also the Samuel Beckett Existentialist version:

1.) Get the hero up a tree.
2.) Throw rocks at him.
3.) Leave him in the tree.

caw

euclid

08-02-2009, 11:44 AM

Thanks, Jim.

1. I will find a Ken Follett thriller and do as you suggest, when the library opens tomorrow.

2. I've printed out and read Lester Dent's Pulp Paper Master Fiction Plot.

- Can this scheme be applied to a 100,000 word book?
- What exactly is Pulp?

3. I don't have the time resources to complete the second exercise (not right now, anyhow). Besides, I doubt that I could do it.

4. I read Ken Follett's web page on The Heist of the Century. I noticed that the book was not a novel. I assume it was non-fiction.

Krintar

08-02-2009, 11:55 AM

4. I read Ken Follett's web page on The Heist of the Century. I noticed that the book was not a novel. I assume it was non-fiction.
That's probably a reasonable assumption, since the picture of the book's cover proclaims it to be "the incredible true story" etc.
Sure, sometimes people lie about such things, but my quick perusal of Amazon seems to back up the story's truth.

Ken Schneider

08-02-2009, 05:07 PM

Ken Follett puts me off and always has. Not interested in reading anything he puts out.

Ende!

James D. Macdonald

08-02-2009, 06:58 PM

1. I will find a Ken Follett thriller and do as you suggest, when the library opens tomorrow.

The library won't take kindly to your highlighting the text. I suggest you find a used paperback somewhere.

2. I've printed out and read Lester Dent's Pulp Paper Master Fiction Plot.

- Can this scheme be applied to a 100,000 word book?

If you're doing a plot turn every 4-6 pages, yes.

- What exactly is Pulp?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulp_magazine

3. I don't have the time resources to complete the second exercise (not right now, anyhow). Besides, I doubt that I could do it.You don't have the time or resources to write a short story? I wrote mine over the course of four days. Longhand. In a notebook. In a moving vehicle. (Which I wasn't driving.)

4. I read Ken Follett's web page on The Heist of the Century. I noticed that the book was not a novel. I assume it was non-fiction.Yes.

That wasn't the lesson I was attempting to draw.

The last Ken Follett novel I read was Lie Down With Lions Rise Up With Fleas, a book that featured pretty much every fluid a human body can produce. I kept wondering where the light was coming from to allow our hero to see what he's seeing.

euclid

08-02-2009, 07:24 PM

Re: writing short stories. For me, writing takes a lot of effort. I wish I had your talent to be able to write longhand, over 4 days in a moving vehicle. The most I can write (when I'm on top form) is about 1,500 words per day.

Anyway, it's not so much the actual writing, I would have to spend maybe 2 weeks working out a good idea (if I could think of one) beforehand.

PS I can do the Follett book exercise without actually using a higlighter. I would never highlight a book.

James D. Macdonald

08-02-2009, 10:14 PM

I assume he means 4-6 pages of the book as published.

That isn't an assumption that I'd make.

Follett is a writer. He thinks in terms of writing, not of publishing or reading. He's of an age to have learned to write on a typewriter.

I'd assume that he means every 4-6 typescript pages. And since he learned on a typewriter, that's Courier 10 or 12, with one-inch margins all around.

Euclid, all this reading-of-how-to-books and trying to figure out how-many-manuscript-pages-to-the-typeset-page has a name: It's called "Writing Avoidance Behavior." Stop it. Any time you aren't writing you aren't writing.

Go. Write something.

euclid

08-02-2009, 11:02 PM

That isn't an assumption that I'd make.

Follett is a writer. He thinks in terms of writing, not of publishing or reading. He's of an age to have learned to write on a typewriter.

I'd assume that he means every 4-6 typescript pages. And since he learned on a typewriter, that's Courier 10 or 12, with one-inch margins all around.

Double-spaced??

Euclid, all this reading-of-how-to-books and trying to figure out how-many-manuscript-pages-to-the-typeset-page has a name: It's called "Writing Avoidance Behavior." Stop it. Any time you aren't writing you aren't writing.

Go. Write something.

Fair point, but no, I don't think so. I'm polishing my book (for the 15th and soon to be 16th) time. I've done as much as I can think of to improve the pace of the book. Now I'm looking for guidance from the experts on how to do this even better. I'm also reading a lot (trying to read at least 100 pages per day) and researching other authors (like Follett) in the genre (Historical thrillers). I'm still actually working at the typescript 5-6 hours per day.

blacbird

08-02-2009, 11:06 PM

Double-spaced??

Yes. Always.

caw

RJK

08-02-2009, 11:40 PM

Ken Schneider

08-02-2009, 11:58 PM

Euclid, your MS will NEVER be ready. You will always find places that you can improve, or change just because, today, it reads a little better. 16 passes through a finished WIP should be more than enough. Write your synopses (short, medium, and detailed), then create the best query letter you can. The query letter will sell you book, not the 21st edit of your WIP.

That's a lot of revising IMO. You could tinker with that piece of work forever, Euclid.

The most important thing to do is follow the guidelines for who you're submitting to.
Besides, who cares how many words are on a page or typewriter sheet. Sell the thing and let the publisher worry about it.

That brings me to another thought.

When you sell the publishing rights to a piece of your work, you're basically done with it. You don't own it anymore, and the publisher could never publish the book. You were paid for writing a piece of work. It's over, move on to a new bicycle you can refurbish and set out on the front lawn with a for sale sign taped to the handlebars, and do it all again.

That's the way I see it. Some writers get uber attached to the product of their labor.
I can only laugh when I see someone say. "It's my baby."

Vanity publishers live for and prey on writers who exhibit those emotions.

I should know. Nothing I write is my baby, it a product for sale, that's all.

blacbird

08-03-2009, 12:14 AM

The query letter will sell you book, not the 21st edit of your WIP.

True. I'm doomed.

caw

FOTSGreg

08-03-2009, 12:51 AM

Sixteen times? I thought my own 7 times was pushing it too far.

As Ken said, write the synopsis and query letter and get that thing out. Start writing your next book.

eqb

08-03-2009, 01:03 AM

Euclid, all this reading-of-how-to-books and trying to figure out how-many-manuscript-pages-to-the-typeset-page has a name: It's called "Writing Avoidance Behavior." Stop it. Any time you aren't writing you aren't writing.

Go. Write something.

What He Said.

Stop editing the current WIP. Write a new one. Really. Once you've written a few new ones, go back and see if you still want to revise the old one.

SilverPhoenix

08-03-2009, 01:37 AM

That's a lot of revisions...what exactly do you look for when you revise? Do you have a beta?

I'm dreading more than one or two revisions of my next novel, let alone more than 10.

Go. Write something.

This will always be the advice, imo, that trumps anything gleamed from any writing book or anything else you may read. I read it and went and wrote about 3000 words because I felt guilty for reading the thread earlier today ;)

James D. Macdonald

08-03-2009, 01:45 AM

Double-spaced??

Yes, double-spaced.

Now I'm looking for guidance from the experts on how to do this even better.

You want to do it better?

Put this book in a desk drawer and write an entire new novel (not a sequel). Something entirely different.

When you've done that, and only then, are you allowed to re-read this book that you've now edited 16 times.

Or, instead of sticking it in a desk-drawer, start submitting it. Either way, you aren't allowed to change a single comma in it unless/until the new book is finished.

Commencing right now.

Ken Schneider

08-03-2009, 06:28 AM

That's a lot of revisions...what exactly do you look for when you revise? Do you have a beta?

I'm dreading more than one or two revisions of my next novel, let alone more than 10.

This will always be the advice, imo, that trumps anything gleamed from any writing book or anything else you may read. I read it and went and wrote about 3000 words because I felt guilty for reading the thread earlier today ;)

I put 4,000 in my new WIP today. I stuck the last one in the drawer to soak. The new writing is going really well. Each new stab at another novel has me improving by bounds.
I've have four years of practice left on my ten year schedule to publication. If it doesn't happen by then, it most likely won't. But, I'll write on for my own entertainment.

I'm glad I stuck it out. It's been six long years of pounding keys to say, "Hey, that reads like something off the bookshop shelf."

euclid

08-03-2009, 03:12 PM

Quoting from Robert Giroux's Introduction in Flannery O'Connor's Complete Stories Faber and Faber:

'In her first letter (June 19,1948) to Miss McKee [her agent], Flannery revealed she had been working on the novel [Wise Blood] "a year and a half and will probably be two more years finishing it." '

and later:

' "I work ALL the time, but I cannot work fast. No one can convince me I shouldn't rewrite as much as I do." '

The book was published in 1952; the first draft of the first chapter was completed in 1947.

eqb

08-03-2009, 05:12 PM

It's true that each writer has their own process for writing a book.

It's also true that some writers get stuck on revising one novel (or story).

Speaking only for myself, I find that my best stories are ones I don't tweak to death. And I do mean "to death" because after a certain point the prose loses its vital spark and the story lies there like a Norwegian parrot.

The trick is finding that balance point between "well polished" and "pining for the fjords."

James D. Macdonald

08-03-2009, 06:14 PM

Euclid, if you're enjoying what you're doing, more power to you.

HConn

08-03-2009, 06:27 PM

When you sell the publishing rights to a piece of your work, you're basically done with it. You don't own it anymore, and the publisher could never publish the book.

Just to jump in: in my contract, it specifies (IIRC) that the publisher has to publish the book in 18 months or the rights revert to me and I get to keep the money.

That's not a clause I would want to enforce, but it's there.

euclid: The first draft of the first chapter of my book was written in 2005 and won't be published until next month. That's only 4 years, not 5 like O'Conners, but there's a lot of time and revision built into the publishing process.

That said, if this is the way you want to go, I say go. One thing I always promised myself was that I would do my best to stick the things that felt most important to me. If I make mistakes, they're going to be my mistakes, not someone else's.

Scribhneoir

08-03-2009, 10:25 PM

The trick is finding that balance point between "well polished" and "pining for the fjords."

Very well put. :Clap: That one's getting posted over my computer.

Priene

08-03-2009, 10:35 PM

I should know. Nothing I write is my baby, it a product for sale, that's all.

If I knew an author considered their work to be nothing more than product for sale, I almost certainly wouldn't buy it.

SilverPhoenix

08-03-2009, 11:14 PM

I can only laugh when I see someone say. "It's my baby."

Vanity publishers live for and prey on writers who exhibit those emotions.

I'm not ashamed to say that. I write what I'm passionate about. Being close to my writing doesn't stop me from being open to revising it or removing chapters etc. nor encourage me to go anywhere near a vanity publisher.

Karen Junker

08-03-2009, 11:27 PM

If I knew an author considered their work to be nothing more than product for sale, I almost certainly wouldn't buy it.

Does that mean you buy lots and lots of books from vanity publishers? Because at some point, the author needs to think of their work this way in order to meet deadlines, do the edits and copyedits and promote their work through signings, websites, social networking and so on. You can do it for the love of your work, but if you don't work with the publisher on a professional basis, your career will dissolve pretty quickly.

James D. Macdonald

08-04-2009, 12:05 AM

Our novels are commercial art. There's equal emphasis on both words: Art, true. But also an item of commerce.

Here we see an author riding both art and commerce:

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/zorro.jpg

(Gracias al Sr. Zorro.)

Ken Schneider

08-04-2009, 01:45 AM

If I knew an author considered their work to be nothing more than product for sale, I almost certainly wouldn't buy it.

It's not say you don't have pride in the writing, or that you didn't enjoy writing the piece. But, asked yourself why you wrote the piece?

Do you think a bicycle maker thinks of their product as something more than a production piece for sale? They like the product they produce, or they wouldn't produce it.

So, in your opinion, you would never buy another production piece. No car, refrig, microwave or TV., bike, et al? What is different about a product of art that you produce?

You know you want to sell it, I assume. Or, is your writing just for personal satisfaction? If a piece is so important to the writer, why would they ever sell it?

blacbird

08-04-2009, 01:59 AM

If I knew an author considered their work to be nothing more than product for sale, I almost certainly wouldn't buy it.

How could you tell?

caw

Kerry Morgan

08-04-2009, 04:31 AM

Mr. MacDonald- Thank you for the invitation and I wanted to post to let you know I'm "starting" in theory at the beginning of this thread.... YIKES-

I'm torn over what Mr. S? Said. The stories I write aren't products UNTIL I think I'm finished with all the revisions and edits and re writes etc.

But it is a passion for me as well. If I don't write- It's like holding back a dam emotionally. I have to write. I love tow rite- But I want to write what others will want to read too. so I want to LOVE writing my Product. :) Basically :)

Going back to like page two or so lol- maybe I'll go back and forth in there are almost 500 pages. LOL

I can see why you are so respected here Mr. MacDonald. You sound like Steven King in On Writing... Even in The Artist's Way-(which isn't SK)

Personally I feel like everyone should have a routine. No matter what the routine is, because everyone is different. To some- smoking is horrendous- to others its life blood they wouldn't think of stopping. (yikes I made it however can't teach kids how to defend themselves then go out after class to smoke now can you? lol I thought not anyway :)) I think the point though- is to HAVE that routine- and do not deviate from it. (From page one and writing for two hours as well as taking revisions elsewhere- I go into the trees or surround myself with crystals conducive to what I'm needing to do... yeah I know- but I do... lol)

:) I write in the morning and I was never a morning person- but I found that doing that in the early morning- the house was quite- no one asks me to do anything but write- and you are "right" I have several projects going and I can always find something to write about- I have a very tight temper- quick to cool- but quick non-the-less.... So- my character that I LOVE who isn't my baby lol- avenges and I let her avenge for me :) Very therapeutic :)

:) Thanks again Sir.

Kerry Morgan