Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1 [Archive] - Page 27

nevada

12-15-2007, 11:18 PM

I just wanted to say a quick thing about Bright Lights being in second person. I"ve not read the book so I don't know if the book supports my theory. But it seems to me that this character is in a bit of denial. In the first sentence already he's lying to himself. "you are not the kind of person" when it becomes pretty clear that he is that kind of person. So by talking in 2nd person he's denying any responsibility for his actions. He takes a step back from 1st person.

How often do we do that? We're making a point about something and instead of saying I do this or I do that, we use the encompassing "you". ie. You pay 12 bucks for a movie ticket so is it too much to expect other people to be quiet. Instead you have to sit there and put up with them text messaging." Why do we say "you" instead of "I" when it's obvious we are talking about ourselves? Because we like to think that we are not alone in our misery or indignation and we want to involve the person we are talking to in some way, so he may be more sympathetic to our cause. After all, it's not just happening to us but to "you" as well.

So in a sense, Bright Lights being in 2nd person accomplishes that as well. Or at least teh first page. First, the narrator is trying to distance himself from his problems. Secondly, he's trying to elicit our sympathy by including us. It's not just him, it's us as well.

Instead of finding myself distanced by 2nd person, I am drawn in. I don't know if that will hold up over the whole book, nor do I think I would ever write in 2nd person, but I like it. It's a false intimacy that I like.

And sorry, Ray, but I actually prefer the 2nd person to the 1st person. For me it loses something. I don't know what. It just doesn't ring like 2nd person does. For me, at least.

James D. Macdonald

12-17-2007, 12:10 AM

I think we can say that 2nd person is the right person for this story, told in this way.

Second person fiction is the prose equivalent of a Rachmaninoff sonata. It can be done beautifully, but you have to be good.

Will Lavender

12-17-2007, 12:14 AM

Not much to add to this conversation, but I'll just say that I enjoy 2nd person as well. I think the reason we don't see it very much is because it simply has never been employed with much frequency in the recent history of letters. Writers are terrified of reviewers calling their work "gimmicky" -- in fact the very idea of a gimmick is like anathema in literature -- and so they don't use it very often.

I, perversely, love gimmicks. Gimmicks of perspective, of plot, of character -- doesn't matter. Another book I would recommend with a strange POV is Joshua Ferris's terrific Then We Came to the End.

aertep

12-17-2007, 07:40 AM

Second person fiction is the prose equivalent of a Rachmaninoff sonata. It can be done beautifully, but you have to be good.

I might attempt it as an excercise in the privacy of my home, but McInerney knows how to play it in public. Like, at Carnegie Hall.

paritoshuttam

12-18-2007, 03:37 PM

Hi,

I am stuck in the plotting phase of my novel. I conceptualized it having a main plotline and two parallel (sub)plots. The main problem I face is that the different plotlines are in different eras. The setting (the place where most of the action is set) is common, but apart from that, what else can I use to tie the plotlines together? The character in the contemporary era is aware of the older characters (not a generational family saga, though).

Is this idea workable? Or do you think I have bitten off more than I can chew?
- Paritosh

Nangleator

12-18-2007, 04:54 PM

Are the modern characters slowly discovering bits about the historical characters as their own plotline develops?

I told a story like this, where the events of the past were very important to the present characters. I believe it made the historical plotline quite a bit more interesting, because it did a good job of "not giving the reader information until he wanted it."

dawinsor

12-18-2007, 08:35 PM

One of my favorite books is Connie Willis's "Doomsday Book," in which characters are all in or around Oxford but one set is in the 14th Century and the other is in the near future. It's really fascinating to see this reversal of the normal order in which characters are all in the same time but may be in different places.

Willis links the stories through time travel which is obviously not going to work for everyone. But maybe you could do it with common objects, perhaps one that affects both eras. For instance, in Doomsday Book, a near-future scholar is excavating a 14th century tomb. The person in the tomb died of a virulent flu and the excavation releases it into the near future. Maybe the ancestor owned an object, a ring say, that the present day person also has. It has some particular meaning in both eras.

FennelGiraffe

12-18-2007, 09:43 PM

I am stuck in the plotting phase of my novel. I conceptualized it having a main plotline and two parallel (sub)plots. The main problem I face is that the different plotlines are in different eras. The setting (the place where most of the action is set) is common, but apart from that, what else can I use to tie the plotlines together? The character in the contemporary era is aware of the older characters (not a generational family saga, though).
Most of the published novels I've seen with that structure had only two plotlines. Adding a third complicates matters, but I don't see any reason why it should be an insurmountable difficulty. You will want to use every possible technique for stitching the three plotlines together.

Basically, when you transition from one plotline to another, you want to build a bridge by repeating some element before and after the transition. Since you have a common setting, one type of bridge would be to transition to the same specific location. If your contemporary plotline leaves off with the MC in the kitchen, then your past plotline picks up with the past MC in the kitchen. Extend that to other aspects of the environment as well. Instead of location, transition from rain to rain, from early morning to early morning, from spring flowers to spring flowers. Don't forget the senses: the sound of a steamboat whistle on the river, the scent of the seashore, the taste of fresh-picked apples.

Also use objects. Transition from MC 1 carefully polishing his sword to MC 2 stubbing his toe on an old sword in a pile of junk or to MC 3 admiring the antique sword mounted above the fireplace. Note what I've done there; each char has a different attitude toward the same object. You can switch it around with the same attitude toward different objects. You can use emotion by itself, too. Transition from anger to anger, passion to passion, despair to despair.

Anything that would be present in more than one time period can be used as a bridge. But mix up the types of bridges. Too much of any one will get heavy-handed.

James D. Macdonald

12-19-2007, 01:45 AM

It isn't necessary to have the characters in the various plotlines aware of each other.

Here's one way to do it:

Write a story of about 30,000 words, set in a location, with a given theme.

Write another story of about 30,000 words, set in the same location, at a different time, with another view of the same theme.

Write a third story of about 30,000 words, set in the same location, at a different time, exploring a third take on the same theme.

When you have those three well in hand, slice them lengthwise, and layer them together like a sandwich. The reader, taking a bite from the edge and eating through to the other edge, gets a bit of bread, meat, and cheese in each mouthful. Sometimes with more pickle, sometimes with less, and a surprise dab of mustard in the middle that brings out all the flavors and textures in a new way.

paritoshuttam

12-19-2007, 07:14 AM

Are the modern characters slowly discovering bits about the historical characters as their own plotline develops?

Yes, that's right, more or less.

Thanks for the other replies, and specially to FennelGiraffe, for the details. Funny you should mention seashore, because the sea is an imporant part of my setting. And yes, I too had my doubts about using three separate plotlines.

Uncle Jim, that was a cool analogy about the sandwich. I guess this will take much longer than making a sandwich :)

RJK

12-20-2007, 09:40 PM

Another newbie here. I've spent months reading this thread from the beginning and feel that I've gotten a well designed graduate level course in how to become a published novelist. Special thanks go to Uncle Jim and to all those who have contributed their thoughtful comments.
I started your Christmas assignment with a short story narrated in first person by a 14 year old boy. In my narration, I'm using the level of grammar I would expect to hear from a boy of that age and it looks amateurish. For example "Eddie was really smart, but kind of crazy". If written in 3rd person I would have used proper grammar. I'm not sure how an editor would see it. How do the experienced writers feel bout using poor grammar in narration to carry the voice of the young character? How would an editor of children's fiction feel about it?

James D. Macdonald

12-21-2007, 06:35 AM

RJK

12-22-2007, 03:24 AM

How would an editor feel? Dunno.

Does it help reveal character? Does it support the theme?

Write it the way you're going. You can go back and forth in subsequent drafts. Right now, go to the end, then read it to see how it sounds.
Thanks UJ I just finished the first draft. It turned out to be 15 pages. It does reveal character. I'm still a little hazy on theme. I like the way it sounds but I'll see after my first beta responds. Thanks again.

James D. Macdonald

12-25-2007, 11:42 PM

A book Uncle Jim threw against the wall, and why he threw it.

The book is The Northeast Kingdom (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0515133612/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) by Peter Collinson. The sell-line on the front cover is: "One prison is about to experience a riot and jailbreak. One town is about to learn about fear and survival."

Near as I can tell it's first (and so-far only) novel. I picked it up off the shelf in a bookstore, because I do that sometimes if a book appeals in some way. I like mystery/thrillers, this one is set near where I live, and the cover is a grabber. So I bought one.

And I started to read it. It started well.

The story is set in "Gilchrist, Vermont," a fictional town. Based on internal evidence it would be somewhere around where Island Pond, VT, is really located.

I was perfectly willing to believe that there was such a town (although I'd be familiar with it if it were real, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief that far).

I'm willing to believe that there was a SuperMax penitentiary in that town -- prisons are getting built in all sorts of rural areas. Heck, there's talk of building another one over in Berlin, NH. I was willing to suspend my disbelief.

This breakout is set in the midst of a howling blizzard, so the town is cut off. To aid to the being-cut-off, the villains have hijacked the town snowplows, so no one can get in or get out.

Even though, through local knowledge, I know that just about every 4x4 pickup truck in town would have a plow blade attached, I was willing to give 'em that one. I was willing to suspend my disbelief.

So, why did I throw this book across the room?

SPOILER WARNING

SPOILER WARNING

SPOILER WARNING

Quite early on in the narrative, the Head Bad Guy decides to tell one of the townspeople how he managed to escape (and get his band of equally evil and depraved criminal followers out too): His henchmen on the outside had drugged the guards by introducing drugs into their groceries over the preceding weeks. The guards had all gone unconscious at the same time, and our villains escaped!

And this brought me to the question of how in the heck did they know which guard had Wheaties for breakfast, and which one had nothing but coffee, and which one had a fried egg, toast, and orange juice; and how did they drug the right package with exactly the right amount; and how did they arrange it that the guard, and only the guard, ate from that package, and ate from that package for the first time ever on that day; and how did he arrange it that no one would be running late and decide to skip breakfast; and how did he know far enough in advance that a blizzard was going to hit on that day, so he could have his outside henchmen get to the various folks' shopping trips a week, two weeks, or even a month in advance?

And which the heck drug is it that you can eat at some time in the morning, that will produce rapid-onset unconsciousness at a specified time later that day, with no symptoms beforehand?

At that point the suspenders of my disbelief snapped.

The real sorrow of it was this: There was no reason whatsoever for the villain to explain how he escaped. He was monologuing (as they put it in The Incredibles (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/B00005JN4W/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/)). He could have left it mysterious. All we really needed to know is that he got out; how isn't a required element. We can assume that it was something Intensely Clever. The story doesn't even start until he and his band of criminals show up in town. No viewpoint character was around for the actual breakout. So to add a bit of icing to the blunder, this particular episode of over-explaining was a huge infodump Telling Not Showing.

Arrrgh!

I threw the book against the wall.

I keep meaning to finish it, but... it's been five years now. I don't think I will.

jst5150

12-25-2007, 11:52 PM

Jim, would you give your perspective on "character-driven" and "plot-driven" please?

James D. Macdonald

12-26-2007, 12:07 AM

Character-driven vs. Plot-driven?

Well, first of all, there isn't a bright sharp line between 'em. All stories must have both, character and plot, and either (and both) will move the story along.

Character-driven usually means that the story is more internal, and is moved along by the characters' wants and needs.

Plot-driven usually means that the story is more external, and is carried by the action. This-happened-then-that-happened.

Plot-driven means that we have to blow up the bridges at Toko-Ri. Character driven is one pilot's journey of self-discovery. Along the way he may also happen to blow up some bridges (which might, by chance, be at Toko-Ri).

Nothing's 100%. (Ray Nelson, who wrote "Eight O'Clock in the Morning," deliberately tried to write a story that was completely plot-driven, going so far as to name his protagonist "Nada." It didn't work. There's still character-driven elements in his story.)

jst5150

12-26-2007, 12:10 AM

Thanks. That jives with my notes. Much appreciated.

Here's your 'Tommy Point.' :D

Chris Grey

12-26-2007, 01:35 AM

So how did you throw the book across the room?

I can understand the writer's point of view. The entire scenario was pretty improbable, and he probably knew your disbelief was getting stretched thin. What better way, in his mind, to restore some credibility than by explaining away the improbable events?

There exists a credibility bank. We take loans out to buy the disbelief of the reader. Can you pay the bank back so you can take out more credibility later? I have no idea, but apparently you can't pay the bank in counterfeit notes and get away with it.

Someone (probably UJ?) once said that if you're not the greatest orator of all time, don't make one of your characters give the greatest speech of all time. They're limited by what you know. If you're not a criminal mastermind (and if not, why are you writing?) with an excellent knowledge of poisons and their application (ditto!) then don't have your villain explain a criminal mastermind plot involving poison. If you don't know what he's talking about, neither does he.

Although, you could always go with some kind of food interaction poison. I heard that horse meat and watermelon don't go well together, for instance (not that you could use them in this setting). Maybe some other two-part poison with the second part triggered by a gas near the prison facility? Though why target only the guards when you could theoretically hit the entire town and thus ensure no resistance?

Personally, I would just say "sea turtles."

Nangleator

12-26-2007, 03:37 AM

That's irritating, that it wasn't even a fatal flaw that the author was trying to distract you away from.

I had a problem once in that my novel seemed to have a hell of a coincidence in the beginning, which was revealed in the climax not to be a coincidence at all. I agonized over whether or not I should let my readers think I was a lazy writer for most of the story. Now, that's a flaw.

James D. Macdonald

12-26-2007, 03:50 AM

You're allowed one wild improbability. A snowstorm that the residents of northern Vermont can't handle on their own is already wildly improbable.

A master villain who can predict the exact day and hour of a New England snowstorm weeks in advance (even without using the Mysterious Super Drug that would leave the Sinister Doctor Fu Manchu scratching his head and saying "How did he do that?") doesn't need to turn to a life of crime. There are ski resorts who would pay him far more than he'd ever earn by super villainy for him to exercise his talent.

But really, a plan that requires that not one single person (from a large group of persons who are not under your control in any way) doesn't say "Screw it -- this morning I'm going to have the Cheerios instead" or the plan will fail, that isn't a workable plan. That's a plan that can only succeed if the author is on your side. If you're going to do that, have them dematerialized inside the cells and rematerialize outside the wall, using the Mystic Power of the Rosicrucians, learned from an elderly Unitarian/Universalist from Bethel, Maine.

Sailor Kenshin

12-26-2007, 10:38 PM

I loved your OP about the book. But my mind works in evil ways.

I'm already thinking how I could get this to 'work' by including supernatural elements and setting it in, say, SoCal, where (and this is true, I lived through it) a half-inch of snow will stop the world. (No, seriously, it got news coverage. There were shots of policemen gaping in perplexity at their tires which were stuck in that half-inch of snow.)

But that's probably just me.

Nangleator

12-26-2007, 11:03 PM

My first visit to SoCal, it drizzled for 3 days, which made national news.

I'd fix that story by making the snowstorm an obstacle in the criminals' path. Make it a bad thing that happened to everybody.

Is it okay to chase your bad guy up a tree and throw rocks at him, too?

And the binary poison thing makes sense. But instead of an ingestible catalyst, I'd maybe use something else to break up tiny time-release capsules in the guards' intestines. Subsonic waves from the visiting band's sound system, perhaps. That gives me more interesting characters to be threatened, as well.

Ava Jarvis

12-27-2007, 12:05 AM

The villain has a big rock thrown at him over and over... it's called the hero.... :)

And vice versa.

Bekah

12-27-2007, 12:18 AM

It would perhaps be a bit more plausible if the main character's guy was on the inside and a guard himself, or at least someone who worked in the prison in some capacity. Then it would be a lot more likely that he could poison some food (or the coffee) in the guards' break room, thus ensuring that their families wouldn't eat any by mistake. Still, someone might be on a diet and refuse even a taste, and someone else might be a glutton and eat way more than his share.

James D. Macdonald

12-27-2007, 07:19 AM

The problem is that the story is "mixed bag of townfolk and tourists, cut off from aid, are under siege by Wicked Criminals; they must learn to survive, work together, and overcome."

No part of that requires the Wicked Criminals to explain themselves. The Wicked Criminals aren't even POV characters.

Ava Jarvis

12-27-2007, 07:49 AM

Maybe someone told the author "close the loop! It's good for you!" You know, like how ipecac is good for you. (It's not in every sense.)

allenparker

12-27-2007, 06:24 PM

No part of that requires the Wicked Criminals to explain themselves. The Wicked Criminals aren't even POV characters.

I think Jim is right. The story needed a good amount of cleaning. Leaving the escape unanswered might have added to the suspense level in the story. Had they shot their way out? Were they evil masterminds and found a secret outlet through the laundry?

At worst, leaving out the escape would be neutral.

Bekah

12-27-2007, 08:42 PM

I think Jim's right, too, and I got the point of his post. My point was that, since the author did unnecessarily mention how they escaped, he might have at least made it somewhat plausible. If I could think of something more likely off the top of my head, there's really no excuse for the one the author came up with.

Given the story he was trying to tell, though, it would have been preferable for him to keep mum on that entirely, even if he had thought up a halfway-likely scenario.

James D. Macdonald

12-27-2007, 11:58 PM

How's everyone doing on their Christmas Challenge?

Ava Jarvis

12-28-2007, 12:47 AM

Scared to roll the dice. With my luck it will probably truly become a Challenge.

Plus, I don't think I've ever been a normal kid. Quite, quite seriously. I grew up in a nasty, Charles Dickensonian way, only worse. And I am even more scared of the story now....

James D. Macdonald

12-30-2007, 10:55 PM

How To Do What You Love (http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html)

Rolling Thunder

12-30-2007, 11:03 PM

How To Do What You Love (http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html)

That's what leads people to try to write novels, for example. They like reading novels. They notice that people who write them win Nobel prizes. What could be more wonderful, they think, than to be a novelist? But liking the idea of being a novelist is not enough; you have to like the actual work of novel-writing if you're going to be good at it; you have to like making up elaborate lies.Huzzah! :)

BrendaK

12-31-2007, 07:08 AM

Happy New Year, all. The more things change, the more they change...

So. Formatting hardcopy (story) submissions is a technique I have down pat, and the style is universal. When a manuscript comes back, I can shove it into another envelope and send it to the next market without a second thought.

For my current story (having started with the highest-paying SF markets and worked my way down), I'm now at the third or so tier--still paying, but not much. At this level there are many markets, and a noticeable fraction want online submissions only. This is a pain in the a**.

When I read submission guidelines, I see that the format specified for online submissions is all over the place. In the body of the email. Single-spaced. Double-spaced. Attachment. .rtf. .doc. Worse, I'm now running into guidelines that specify online submissions without giving any specs.

Genial uncle, is any sign of a universal standard for online submissions coming forth?

Thanks.

James D. Macdonald

12-31-2007, 07:29 AM

Nearly the New Year. Time for a reading assignment!

Okay, we're going to look at Noir Fiction.

Let's start with The Pardoners's Tale (http://www.courses.fas.harvard.edu/~chaucer/teachslf/pard-par.htm) by Geoffrey Chaucer

Skip forward a few hundred years to The Murders in the Rue Morgue (http://www.poemuseum.org/selected_works/rue_morgue.html) by Edgar Allan Poe.

Forward a bit more to some Sherlock Holmes. Try A Study in Scarlet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/1420925539/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) (novel) or The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0439574285/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) (short stories).

Onward!

Here's The Simple Art of Murder (http://www.en.utexas.edu/amlit/amlitprivate/scans/chandlerart.html) by Raymond Chandler, and here's Chandler's The Big Sleep (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0394758285/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/).

Hammett's The Maltese Falcon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0679722645/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/).

Double Indemnity (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/037541438X/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) by James M. Cain.

A different approach to crime:
The ABC Murders (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/1579126243/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) by Agatha Christie, perhaps the first serial killer novel, years before the term "serial killer" was coined.

To Have and Have Not (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0684818981/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) by Ernest Hemingway. Also, The Killers (http://www.geocities.com/cyber_explorer99/hemingwaykillers.html) (short story). A brilliant work, almost all dialog.

For another superb stylist, go to Fright (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0843957743/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) by Cornell Woolrich.

Fifty years or more after they were first published, all these are still in print. Think about that.

Read the best, my friends. Fill your heads with good stories. They provide the soil in which your own flowers will grow.

James D. Macdonald

12-31-2007, 07:35 AM

Genial uncle, is any sign of a universal standard for online submissions coming forth?

For a given market, follow the market's guidelines. (Most wordprocessors will save in any given format.)

If no format is given, I'd use this format:

Rich Text Format (RTF) only. Not .doc, .txt, .wpd, or anything else. Most wordprocessors allow a "save as" function with .rtf as one of the choices.

Turn off "Smart Quotes." Replace all curved quotes with straight quotes. Replace all curved apostrophes with straight apostrophes. Indicate italics with underlines. Replace the elipsis character with three periods in a row (...), not with a true elipsis (…). Indicate an em-dash (long dash) with two hyphens (--) not a true em-dash (—). Scene breaks should be indicated with a single hash mark (#) alone on a line.

And don't be too concerned. If they had a format in mind that they wanted, they'd have specified it, right?

James D. Macdonald

12-31-2007, 07:56 AM

Oh -- when you're creating that attachment -- don't call the file STORY.RTF or SUBMISSION.RTF. Use your name and a keyword from the title as the filename.

blacbird

12-31-2007, 07:57 AM

Echo, with emphasis, everything James just said. But especially this:

Rich Text Format (RTF) only. Not .doc, .txt, .wpd, or anything else. Most wordprocessors allow a "save as" function with .rtf as one of the choices.

I learned to do this long ago, for business reasons (I send a lot of technical consulting reports to clients). I've never had a single problem with readability on the receiving end. If, for some unimaginable reason, your word-processor does not permit a "Save As" .rtf option, you really need to get a new word-processor. And there are no excuses: OpenOffice Writer, which is free and simple to download, does the job just fine.

caw

Scribhneoir

12-31-2007, 08:29 AM

Okay, we're going to look at Noir Fiction.

Oooh, my favorite.

What timing! I was just sitting in front of my to-be-read pile trying to decide what to read next. Fright was in top contention with Dexter in the Dark and The Thirteenth Tale.

Fright it is.

Or must I start with The Pardoner's Tale? 'Cause I can do that, too. Chaucer isn't far from the TBR pile... and all the others I've already read.

James D. Macdonald

01-01-2008, 10:13 AM

Happy New Year!

triceretops

01-01-2008, 10:34 AM

Happy New Year, Jim. And all AW!

Tri

BrendaK

01-01-2008, 10:55 AM

If no format is given, I'd use this format:

Rich Text Format (RTF) only. Not .doc, .txt, .wpd, or anything else. Most wordprocessors allow a "save as" function with .rtf as one of the choices.Thank you! This is the point I was looking for. Henceforth all my online submissions to markets without specifications shall be RTF!

The tip about putting my name and a keyword in the filename is good, too.

And, blacbird, thanks for the confirmation based on your technical writing experience.

Happy New Year, all!

Summerwriter

01-01-2008, 06:00 PM

Right, that's how I learned the trumpet. I didn't compose Herb Alpert's music. I copied, rehearsed and eventually performed it in public.

Hi Marky48!
I have to make a confession. The copying...it is important. They say some artists...they copy. They copy the master's paintings. That is how I try to learn my writing. I copy a lot. I do not know if copying is counted for those...pages. But at the moment my writing is...on vacation. And I just copy hoping, that one day I will see connections. And I believe...something in me has changed. I have noticed changes in me.

Ken Schneider

01-01-2008, 07:34 PM

Happy new year all.

Good writing.

Ken

James D. Macdonald

01-02-2008, 07:39 AM

The Lumberjack Joke was in post #369, way back here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=82659#post82659).

James D. Macdonald

01-02-2008, 07:53 PM

Hardcover and softcover are the same. Please yourself (and your pocketbook) with that choice.

James D. Macdonald

01-03-2008, 03:06 AM

I've been committing random story here at AW.

First, in the thread When Did "Beta" Become a Dirty Word (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87583&page=3) here in the novels forum.

Please notice that this is a complete story with a beginning, a middle, and an end:

"Beta" became a dirty word at 4:57 pm, August the 8th, 2007.

At first few took notice. A motorist would mutter "Beta!" under his breath as a traffic cop pulled him over. A schoolboy would write "Beta" on a wall.

But before long a tourist was removed from an airplane for saying "Beta!" in a loud voice when the pilot announced that the plane would be delayed half an hour at takeoff.

The real breakthrough came with the release of Quentin Tarantino's Blood In The Drains, starring Harvey Keitel, Steve Buscemi, and Madonna. The screenplay used the word "beta" a record-breaking 25,027 times in dialog, and an additional twelve times in scene descriptions.

After that there was no denying it: "Beta" had become a dirty word.

The second was in the Erotica forum, in the Which POV during a sex scene?... (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80440&page=2) thread.

Someone had suggested 2nd person, and again I was inspired.

You are not the kind of guy who would be in some strange girl's bedroom at this time in the morning, but here you are, and you're looking at a blonde with really big knockers. Her name is either Sheryl or Stacie, but it would be too embarrassing to ask which, because of what you've been doing for the last hour, and besides her mouth is full. You are mildly surprised to learn that you can still feel embarrassment, especially after she brought out the "Jeff Stryker" brand realistic-molded toy and the tube of K-Y, and showed you what she wanted you to do with them, and you did those things. Maybe you could keep calling her "Doll" or "Darling" or "Babe" but you wonder if she'll see through that and ask you what her name is. Then you wonder what she'll say if you ask her what your name is, even though you're sure you told her, back in the bar. Before she invited you home. Before Jeff Stryker and before the rabbit fur and before the video camera. All the wondering distracts you and she looks up and asks what's wrong and inspiration strikes. You say, "It's the beer; I have to take a leak," and you think that maybe you'll check for her driver's license in her purse on the way back from the bathroom.

Aside from the homage to Bright Lights, Big City, please notice that this is the opening paragraph from a novel. Depending on what our second-person protagonist finds in that purse, the story could go in a lot of different directions.

Maybe the young lady is only 15. Maybe there's a police badge, a running tape recorder, and a .38. Maybe the driver's license shows she's Mrs. Giovanni "Meatgrinder" Luciazzi, wife of the Mafia chief who has never yet been convicted for any of the thirty-seven mob hits he's been suspected of. Maybe she's Meatgrinder Luciazzi himself, after his sex-change.

That's a plot hook, and we can go a lot of ways with it.

James D. Macdonald

01-05-2008, 08:23 AM

The best advice on what to do with an advance that I ever got (from a multiply-published, multiple-award-winning author) was: "Buy a dishwasher."

James D. Macdonald

01-05-2008, 11:59 AM

Dishwashers make washing the dishes fast and easy.

Sailor Kenshin

01-05-2008, 10:55 PM

I do some of my best thinking while scrubbing dishes. :D

SinkFulloDishes

01-06-2008, 12:10 AM

I believe the second part of that advice might have been left out - Hire somebody to unload the clean dishes and load up the dirty dishes with enough time to spare for making dinner, because inspiration draws you back to your story at the most inconvenient times.

(note my screen name :D)

Chris Grey

01-06-2008, 11:33 AM

I love my dishwasher. I have no shortage of other chores to keep me from writing and/or provide me brief flashes of inspiration.

Nangleator

01-06-2008, 08:03 PM

Walking. All the good ideas are out there on the sidewalks. You just have to walk over them like some sort of video game character.

James D. Macdonald

01-06-2008, 08:56 PM

I have several bathrooms that need to be cleaned and some leaves that need to be raked

And, if all else fails, you can always wax the cat.

a_sharp

01-06-2008, 09:06 PM

And, if all else fails, you can always wax the cat.
That's my job! (See profile)

Oh, you said "wax." I just watch him. Maybe I oughta try giving him a "watch and wax" job.

My creative ideas come from morning runs. Problem is, no way to write them down out there. Could try my digital recorder...between breaths.

*Hah* hesatonthefrontstep *Hah* watchingmewaxthecat *Hah* andlaughinghisfoolhead *Hah* off. Andthenhesaidhehad *Hah* dishesformetowash.

Komnena

01-08-2008, 07:58 PM

Well, I discovered a major plot element in Matter of Shape was just about certain to get my messterpiece rejected. So now I'm starting a new draft without that plot element. It's still pretty crappy because I'm once again trying to get the story line down. I've taken Uncle Jim's advice and started it with a kidnapping, which is where one of my two viewpoint characters has the door or rather lid literally slammed shut on him.

James D. Macdonald

01-15-2008, 06:00 PM

In Media Res (Latin for In The Middle of Things) is often a good place to start.

That "Res" is the same "Re" that you see in business letters, meaning About or Concerning. Only with "Res" there's more of them.

Since all of our stories are presumably part of a continuous narrative that started back in pre-history and will go on to the end of time, it's a good plan to start the part of the story we're telling when things get interesting. We could start telling our detective story with the night our protagonist's grandparents met (or, if we're James Michener, with the rocks that would eventually form lower Manhattan cooling), but for most of us it's better to start the story when the blonde sashays in the door with a two-dollar gat in her hand and a look on her face that spells trouble.

Komnena

01-15-2008, 08:37 PM

I'm not James Michener and certainly don't have his ability to make rocks cooling interesting.
So far it seems to be working. I'm alternating viewpoints in different chapters. One character, the kidnapped one, is interacting with his captors and other kidnapped characters. The second viewpoint character is working to retrieve the captives, among whom is her brother-in-law.

chroniclemaster1

01-16-2008, 06:55 AM

Who says Michener makes it interesting. ;) I usually like historical novels, but I've never been able to get into Michener. I'm probably part of a minority, but I can get into a history textbook, or a historical atlas, but Michener puts me to sleep.

Komnena

01-16-2008, 08:24 AM

It's a free country

James D. Macdonald

01-20-2008, 12:05 AM

Who wants to write a story (I see around 6-9,000 words) featuring cooling rocks, blue-green algae, and slime-molds? Oxygen is a plus but not required.

Must have action, adventure, and a slam-bang climax.

Your market is Exciting Evolutionary Tales and your deadline is Tuesday.

Okay, cowboy, go to town!

James D. Macdonald

01-20-2008, 12:44 AM

Stuck for a plot, young Jedi? An inspiration you need? Here is another slick quick trick... use a joke.

Jokes (of the Story Joke variety, not the riddle or pun) are condensed Plot In A Box. For example, the last line in my previous post was from the punchline of a joke. Here's how it goes:

The sheriff of a small western town spots a young man walking down the street, and the young feller is wearing nothing at all. So the sheriff hauls him in for indecent exposure. Once they're in the jail, the sheriff asks him how he came to be walking down the street starkers, and the fella says, "Well, sheriff, it's like this:

"There I was in the roadhouse having a beer, when this young filly comes up to me and asks if I'm a cowboy. So I says 'Yep,' and she asks me back to her trailer.

"Once we go there, she whipped off her blouse, and said 'Okay, cowboy, take off your shirt,' so I did.

"Then she whipped off her skirt, and said 'Okay, cowboy, take off your jeans,' so I did.

"Then she whipped off her undies and said, 'Okay, cowboy, take off your shorts,' so I did.

"Then she leaned back on her bed and said, 'Okay, cowboy, go to town....' "

========

Note that this has a person in a place with a problem, it has characters, it has a beginning, a middle, and an end, it has a surprising yet satisfying climax, it has dialog, it has POV -- heck, most of it is a flashback in a frame-tale.

Jokes are great.

A single joke is a short story. A novel is a comedy routine made of many jokes built around a common theme, each one topping the one that came before.

The funny thing is, your story doesn't have to be funny.

Komnena

01-20-2008, 05:17 AM

Young Jedi is thinking about algae, cooling rocks and slam-bang climaxes instead of her WIP or cowboy jokes. Thinking about trying to write 6,000 words in addition to a single spaced page of said WIP and knowing how unbelievably crappy such an effort would be. Still, I can see that it might teach some discipline and definitely BIC.

Komnena

01-22-2008, 07:36 PM

I made a stab at the writing exercise but couldn't get anywhere near the 6,000 words. I got up to 1200 words and realized I shouldn't have made it about a giant water scorpion's adventures.

James D. Macdonald

01-25-2008, 01:19 AM

The Dumb Little Man (http://www.dumblittleman.com/2007/09/complete-your-first-book-with-these-9.html)writes a book. Good advice all the way around. FREX:

Book bible. Most writers won't bother with this, but that's a mistake. If you are serious about your writing, a book bible is a must-have. However, you can work on that last. This is ideally a binder with everything about your book contained in its pages: plot outline, character sketches, notes, bits of dialog, small details, scene description, research, etc. You'll find this extremely useful. The habit to develop: get a binder, write notes on characters, plot, scene, dialog, and keep it updated, as soon as you're done writing. So: write, log it, then update your book bible.

Sailor Kenshin

01-25-2008, 02:40 AM

The Dumb Little Man (http://www.dumblittleman.com/2007/09/complete-your-first-book-with-these-9.html)writes a book. Good advice all the way around. FREX:

So that's what I've been doing! Wondered what it was called.

Nangleator

01-25-2008, 03:29 AM

It's at the end of my current WIPs, after a page break. They contain at least an encyclopedia of people, places and important events. One of them had a calendar for the planet my characters lived on, a technical monograph of an engineering marvel, and a history of mankind from now until the setting of the book.

Much of it wasn't visible in the story, but it was there, propping up the facades.

James D. Macdonald

01-27-2008, 07:57 AM

It's coming up on the end of January. Has everyone sent out their Christmas Challenge story?

Kcshrimp

01-27-2008, 11:06 PM

Uncle Jim, Thank you so much for the advice. It was entertaining as well as it was good, sound advice and direction for me. I am really new at all of this. I had an unfortunate thing happen............I was published by a vanity press that is no longer in business anymore (Thank goodness). So here is my question to you. Can I rewrite my manuscript and get it published again by a real publishing house? I guess I am completely ignorant when it comes to this whole thing.

James D. Macdonald

01-28-2008, 02:20 AM

Kcshrimp: Sure, you can.

But determining exactly how much you'd have to change it to make it a "new" work is something to discuss with a lawyer.

If you get it reprinted now, you get reprint-level money.

A better plan would be to take the experience of writing this book, and use it toward writing a new book. Then, when that's sold, and your editor asks you "Do you have anything else?" You can say "Yes, but there's a bit of a story to it...." and fill her in on what went down.

The kind of numbers that vanity books sell, that previous publication won't be a bar then (I think). But selling it straight, with its history ... tricky at best.

Kcshrimp

01-28-2008, 06:20 PM

I am so appreciative of your advice, and I think that is exactly what I will do. I will put it on MY book shelf! I have some other things that I am working on, and with your advice in "writing with uncle Jim". I can write and build even a better story. I love to write, so it is not an imposition for me to just move forward. I now have the knowledge of what to do and what a vanity press is............... :) and I also know (now) that there are some bad seeds out there when it comes to agents and publishers.

Komnena

01-29-2008, 07:28 AM

I just looked back at the page I finished today and I'm really glad for the permission to write crap.

James D. Macdonald

02-04-2008, 09:48 PM

Crap you say? Here's some!

This is a story fragment (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1148644&postcount=290) I posted on another thread about a year ago.

You probably want to read the part of the thread it's in, to see what inspired it.

On a lonely stretch of road in Togo, two families, two wealthy families, are destined to meet. Little did they think that morning, as they filled coolers with beer and set off on holiday, that the Nouvissi Express Road would prove to be their undoing.

S. J. Tann, an Engineer with Shell Oil, turned to his wife just as the speedometer nudged sixty-five miles an hour. The sun was in their eyes, for they were eastbound. "Are you wearing your knickers?" he asked. "In case of an accident, that is."

"No," she responded, in her usual simpering manner. "Knickers would only get in the way. I don't believe in knickers, nor does our daughter."

"You wearing your knicks?" S. J. asked their lovely just-turned-eighteen daughter, riding in the backseat.

"Nope!" she responded enthusiastically, and popped open another beer. Her short skirt rode up her thighs rendering her words superfluous.

Meanwhile, westbound on that self-same Nouvissi Express Road, Engineer (with Shell Oil) S. J. Tea turned to his wife. "I just read a book by my cousin, Travis," he confided. "Great book. Starts with a rich guy getting in a car accident."

"Wait a moment?" his wife trembled. "We're rich."

"You'll wake our daughter," S. J. said. "Hand me another beer." He glanced in the rearview mirror, to where their lovely daughter lay asleep in the back, her seatbelt unfastened. "No worries, though, the rich guy lives."

"If you mean that wonderful book, Atlanta Nights, available in brick-and-mortar bookstores from sea to shining sea, that I saw you reading, the rich guy in the auto accident dies."

"Lives."

"Dies."

"Lives."

"Dies."

Meanwhile, in the Tann automobile, S. J. had a question: "Do we drive on the right or on the left in this country?"

"Well," his wife suggested, "If the women wear knickers, we drive on the left. If, on the other hand, they wear panties, we drive on the right."

"What if the women don't wear anything at all?"

"If they aren't wearing knickers we drive on the left," she stated. "If they aren't wearing panties we drive on the right. I, myself," she sniffed, "am not wearing knickers."

Faster and faster, they drove east. In the left-hand lane.

In the Tea auto, the argument grew hotter:

"Lives!"

"Dies!"

"Lives, lives, lives!"

"Dies, dies, dies, times a thousand!"

"Lives, times a million!"

Neither was watching the road as they drove west, in the right-hand lane (which, from the point of view of the rapidly approaching Tann car was the left-hand lane).

Suddenly, Mrs. Tea screamed out, "Watch out for the Tann car!"

"Trying to get out of admitting you were wrong?" Mr. Tea asked. "And I don't see any tan car. The car directly ahead of us in our lane, with which we are about to have a head-on crash, is red!"

Duncan J Macdonald

02-05-2008, 12:33 AM

Komnena

02-05-2008, 06:37 AM

That makes me feel much better about what I've written.

ckastens

02-05-2008, 03:54 PM

That makes me feel much better about what I've written.

Are you kidding? I wish I coule write like that! ;)

James D. Macdonald

02-06-2008, 12:56 AM

From http://www.iconsf.org/authors.php

Authors' Workshop

The Author's track is proud to offer you a chance to have your work critiqued by professionals. Coordinator Terry McGarry, James Macdonald, Debra Doyle and Ann VanderMeer will analyze your short story in two ninety minute sessions during I-CON 27. Participation is strictly limited to five writers. Fantasy or science fiction stories must be submitted by email only, in MS Word format, double spaced, with a maximum length of 5000 words. The deadline for submissions is February 15, 2008. NOTE: you must be available both Saturday and Sunday to participate in the workshop.

Please send to authors@iconsf.org with the words "Writer's Workshop" in the subject header. Participant confirmation will be sent by March 5, 2008. Submission implies your permission to provide your story to all workshop participants

James D. Macdonald

02-10-2008, 09:06 PM

Free e-books. (http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=358)

Oh, yeah. And free stories (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/L_queenmirror.htm).

Komnena

02-14-2008, 04:21 AM

How do we get characters under control? Am I the only one whose characters are totally out of control?

Sailor Kenshin

02-15-2008, 01:08 AM

How do we get characters under control? Am I the only one whose characters are totally out of control?

No.

One of my spear-carriers got nasty with me and demanded that I pay more attention to him. Now I'm totally in love with the character. :flag:

callalily61

02-15-2008, 01:11 AM

How do we get characters under control? Am I the only one whose characters are totally out of control?

Definitely not. One of my weenie minor characters informed me he was actually the driving evil force behind who I thought was the bad guy. Really changed the book, ramped up the tension, and I'm bringing him back in at least 2 sequels.

Komnena

02-15-2008, 08:27 AM

Good. Right at this moment everything is up in the air. I don't know what's going to happen next.

Ava Jarvis

02-15-2008, 08:53 AM

That's quite normal actually. Although I understand the weird funky confusion it causes.

All you can do is to keep running after the story. Well, you can also manipulate events so that the funny little running characters will go down the path you want them to go.

Muse, give me FIRE.

Komnena

02-15-2008, 09:28 AM

Right now I'm letting them do what they want even though I'm not sure where it comes from. They refused to cooperate at first today and wouldn't do anything. I finally did manage to finish my page.

Ava Jarvis

02-15-2008, 09:49 AM

Characters alive are wonderful things, even if they won't always do what you want.

(If they won't do something, give them incentive ... or figure out what's wrong with what you want them to do.)

It's characters dead that you need to worry about. You'll be fine. This draft may not be so right now, but you are. :)

James D. Macdonald

02-15-2008, 09:55 AM

When the characters want to start telling the story for you: Let them. It makes composition a lot easier.

Ken Schneider

02-16-2008, 07:55 AM

If you develope the characters properly, have given them an identity and a personality, they should be writing the story for you. You just type what you see them doing in your mind. The characters are(almost) bound to do what you've developed them to do and be. They have direction, they have a part to play. Let them run unfettered.

I truly love when this starts to happen. That's when I know I'm in a zone. I can't type fast enough to keep up with the story going through my head. That's what I really enjoy about writing. That zone feeling is like a drug I can't get enough of.

Be well all,
Ken

Komnena

02-16-2008, 10:09 PM

I'm beginning to get a handle on it, or at least I have a handle until the characters change their minds. It's been a hard slog the past two days but hopefully it will get easier now.

Ava Jarvis

02-17-2008, 12:17 AM

I'm beginning to get a handle on it, or at least I have a handle until the characters change their minds. It's been a hard slog the past two days but hopefully it will get easier now.

*laughs with a hollow laughing* ;)

Writing isn't easy. Never gets easy. And that's the sheer beauty of it.

Komnena

02-17-2008, 08:57 AM

I should have said flowing instead of being dragged out, word by word.

Komnena

02-17-2008, 09:20 PM

Is it a bad idea to work on more than two W.I.P. s at the same time?

bsolah

02-18-2008, 02:39 AM

Yes and no; it depends on the writer and how differing the two projects are. For me, I can work on multiple projects when I'm in the zone, as I like to take advantage of it considering how rare it's been lately.

But the two projects have to be starkly different especially in the mood of the piece or I tend to mix the two up. I need to automatically attach myself to the one project at the time of working on it.

Forbidden Snowflake

02-18-2008, 03:41 AM

Is it a bad idea to work on more than two W.I.P. s at the same time?

It depends. If one of them starts to annoy me because I'm stuck it helps to work on another idea, especially if that one is actually driving me crazy.

But if you can go on with Number One, I would.

Komnena

02-18-2008, 03:41 AM

I've thought it over and will stick with just the current wip until I at least finish the first draft.

CutteRug

02-19-2008, 12:12 PM

Digesting five years of posts over the course of the last two weeks has had a strange effect of time distortion on me. Almost like some faster-than-light travel anomaly which has caused your ancient history to feel just like yesterday to me. Luckily, the basics haven't changed: Butts still fit the same way in chairs, and chess and Celtic knots haven't changed in centuries. Oh, and PA still sucks!

As is customary in one of these "first posts", I offer many thanks to Uncle Jim, as well as all you regulars, both past and present. There were some fantastic discussions, "and then" there were less amazing topics. But everything had at least a little educational value, and much of it blew my socks off.

And now to introduce myself:

If the quizzes are to be believed; I am a "Grammar God", a "Science-Fiction Writer", and a "Bookish Regency Heroine". (And as you can see, a user of the serial comma). In real life, I'm a CPR instructor, a screenwriter, and a fledgling filmmaker.

I came to this site through a recommendation on a screenwriting board I frequent, and got hooked in by this thread. Funny, I haven't read a single other post on any other topic!

Anyway, I'm adapting one of my SF stories that was "too big" for a movie into a novel, and if it works I've got two more stories which will do nicely in book form. So again - many thanks for the amazing tutelage. I feel more confident than ever that it'll be a reachable goal.

Being a screenwriter, I've long been intimidated by (for lack of a better term) the "broader playing field" of narrative writing. There are so many constraints in film writing (like only being able to write what's seen and heard) that I've almost grown dependent on them. But now I've got the tools to make a go of it in your world.

B.I.C.!!! It's worked for me for screenwriting, and it obviously works for novel writing.

Glad to be here. Thanks again.

Cheers,

Adam

PS: One question for Jim (or anyone who feels like fielding it). I've usually shortened "Science Fiction" to "Sci-Fi", but noticed (while reading this thread) that you all usually refer to it as "SF". Just want to know if there's any derision that goes along with saying or writing it "Sci-Fi"?

Like for example: I'm from the San Francisco Bay area, and when we shorten the name, we say "San Fran", but anyone who says "Frisco" is instantly known to be a ... how do I put this politely? Tourist.

I'd hate to come off as a tourist. Even though for now, I am.

anodyne

02-19-2008, 12:32 PM

<gasps> Don't you know there's a letter shortage in this country!?!?!?! How could you so abuse the acronym and negate the conservationist activities of millions?!?!?!

When I speak about the genre, I usually say "Sci-Fi" but the SF/F abbreviation is just faster to type, and most people here will get what you mean. But I doubt anyone is going to see you as a "noob" either way, so, welcome to the boards and the shared resource that is Uncle Jim.

Willowmound

02-19-2008, 05:00 PM

Isaac Asimov once told me (which is to say, he wrote in a book that I later read) that "sci-fi" denotes the squishy sort of science fiction (see Flash Gordon (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080745/) (1980)), and "SF" denotes the hard (see 2001: A Space Odyssey (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062622/) (1968)).

This from the man who invented the word "robotics". But hey.

prusik

02-19-2008, 07:19 PM

anodyne

02-19-2008, 10:18 PM

CutteRug

02-20-2008, 10:36 AM

Yes. In the "how not to get published" panel at Boskone this weekend, the panelists said referring to your work as "Sci-Fi" in your query letter was one way not to ever get published.

Wow. Serious note-to-self time. Thanks for the heads-up.

... really?

<feels terribly naive>

Yeah, me too. . . Anyway, thanks for the welcome!

anodyne

02-20-2008, 01:17 PM

allenparker

02-20-2008, 06:20 PM

I mean... I don't write Sci-Fi, or SF, or any other variation. At best I guess it could be called speculative fiction... or fantasy, but while the glove fits, it doesn't.

But at the same time, if that's your genre, why should stating it get your manuscript round filed?

Query letters are formal business letters. SF and Sci-fi are abbreviations. Spell it out. "I am the author of five New York Times Best Seller List science fiction novels."

anodyne

02-20-2008, 10:32 PM

Query letters are formal business letters. SF and Sci-fi are abbreviations. Spell it out. "I am the author of five New York Times Best Seller List science fiction novels."

Oh, that makes perfect sense. Not where I was going with things at all, but yeah... <smacks forehead> Okay.

Scribhneoir

02-20-2008, 11:11 PM

Digesting five years of posts over the course of the last two weeks ...

You read 6,595 posts in this thread in only two weeks? Wow! I'm impressed. :Clap:

Welcome to AW, Adam.

prusik

02-21-2008, 01:09 AM

But at the same time, if that's your genre, why should stating it get your manuscript round filed?

Are you really asking why referring to your genre by a term fans typically consider derogatory is problematic?

IdiotsRUs

02-21-2008, 01:12 AM

Sci fi is derogatory?

You see, I'm a sci fi fan, and I like the term, so I wouldn't have known that would be a problem.

Prawn

02-21-2008, 05:58 PM

Query letters are formal business letters. SF and Sci-fi are abbreviations. Spell it out. "I am the author of five New York Times Best Seller List science fiction novels."

Somehow I don't think the abbreviation would matter in this sentence: "I am the author of five New York Times Best Seller List sci-fi novels" would probably get their attention just as well.

prusik

02-21-2008, 11:57 PM

Sci fi is derogatory?

The consensus, as I was introduced to it is that the relationship between "Sci Fi" and "Science Fiction" is the relationship between "Trekkie" and "Trekker."

You see, I'm a sci fi fan, and I like the term, so I wouldn't have known that would be a problem.

There are people who like being called Trekkies too. But that doesn't mean you should call someone a Trekkie who prefers being called a Trekker. If the person in question is an agent who may or may not choose to represent you...

The wikipedia article on "skiffy" goes into a little detail about this.

At the end of the day, I don't know if it matters what anyone calls it. What I do know is that agents on the "How Not to Be Published" panel at Boskone thought using "Sci Fi" in your query letter did not make a good first impression.

dawinsor

02-22-2008, 12:13 AM

What I do know is that agents on the "How Not to Be Published" panel at Boskone thought using "Sci Fi" in your query letter did not make a good first impression.

I'm not an agent but I so should have been on that panel! I've not been published a lot!

anodyne

02-22-2008, 01:48 AM

Are you really asking why referring to your genre by a term fans typically consider derogatory is problematic?

SF/F has been my pleasure reading genre of choice since I was like... eight. I've never heard anyone say that they found referring to it as sci-fi insulting or derogatory.

And um... what if someone prefers to be called a "Trekkie" and you call them a "Trekker" ? Aren't you going to be just as offensive? Isn't the movie called Trekkies? And anyway, you're not calling SOMEONE anything, you're calling something a term that is really common. It is the Sci-Fi channel after all.

Laurababs

02-22-2008, 01:56 AM

This thread is really useful and ive only read the first page! haha its gonna be a long night ;)

MoonWriter

02-22-2008, 02:57 AM

Fresie, if the boy's father's return begins the whole chain of events that changes the boy's life, I'd say that's your beginning. Remember Uncle Jim's "theater door" analogy? If you think that's when the boy can't turn back, it's your beginning.

Your analogy, Uncle Jim, made sense, but it wasn't until I read the above quote by Maestrowork, post #2377 on page 96, that I realized that the theater door didn't slam shut for my MC didn't until chapter 4.

I'm working on my second novel and trying to use different P.O.V. characters for the first time. Question: Is it ok to have the door close, but not lock, in the first chapter, which is where my MC is first presented? The situation I have him in is bad, but not life altering as in the fourth chapter.

Another question: Where is the best place to find a concise explanation of the different P.O.V. options? I've read about it on this thread and in books and other sites, but, with the differences in terminology and definitions, I'm still not comfortable with my understanding.

I'm off to page #96. I'll be back some time next year when I catch up to introduce myself and to offer my profound thanks to Uncle Jim and his sidekicks: Maestro, eraser, Relph, etc., etc. for your enlightening posts. Everyone's unique take on the same subject has helped me to understand some of the board's more complex discussions.
Tim

James D. Macdonald

02-22-2008, 05:35 PM

PS: One question for Jim (or anyone who feels like fielding it). I've usually shortened "Science Fiction" to "Sci-Fi", but noticed (while reading this thread) that you all usually refer to it as "SF". Just want to know if there's any derision that goes along with saying or writing it "Sci-Fi"?

Like for example: I'm from the San Francisco Bay area, and when we shorten the name, we say "San Fran", but anyone who says "Frisco" is instantly known to be a ... how do I put this politely? Tourist.

I'd hate to come off as a tourist. Even though for now, I am.

Welcome, Adam.

You've got it exactly right: People who call Science Fiction "Sci-fi" come off as tourists (unless they pronounce it "skiffy," which you should only attempt if you're already a black belt eighth dan skiffy writer).

The reasons for this are lost in the mists of bad metaphors, and include such questions as "How do your feel about 4E Ackerman?" For right now, don't think too much about it or attempt to suss out the logic: If you must abbreviate Science Fiction, abbreviate it as "SF."

It's a minor thing, but it's a tribal marker.

---------------

On your other points: one of the nice things that screenwriters tend to notice when they switch to writing novels is that the special effects budget is no longer a concern. You can go with what the story requires. Another nice thing is that you get final cut. (Sure, the editor and copyeditor will read and mark up your book, but you can write "STET" beside anything they fooled with and your version goes.)

On the down side, selling a book usually brings in nowhere near as much money as selling a screenplay.

James D. Macdonald

02-22-2008, 05:51 PM

I'm working on my second novel and trying to use different P.O.V. characters for the first time. Question: Is it ok to have the door close, but not lock, in the first chapter, which is where my MC is first presented? The situation I have him in is bad, but not life altering as in the fourth chapter.

Is there any way to get it to lock? If the character can say "Screw this; I'm going back inside where it's comfortable and warm," you lose a bit of forward motion that won't be easy to regain.

Another question: Where is the best place to find a concise explanation of the different P.O.V. options? I've read about it on this thread and in books and other sites, but, with the differences in terminology and definitions, I'm still not comfortable with my understanding.

There's really nothing to understand.

You have three basic points of view.

First Person: This story is about Me.

Second Person: This story is about You.

Third Person: This story is about that guy over there.

The two rules are: (1) Know where you're standing when you describe a scene, and (2) don't confuse the reader. Of those, the second is the most important.

Here's an example by me in First Person (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/L_queenmirror.htm). Here's an example by me in Third Person (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/L_suivi.htm). I've never written anything (other than the brief paragraph here and there as an illustration) in Second Person.

I suppose I could go through one of them and point out the Points of View.

prusik

02-22-2008, 06:32 PM

SF/F has been my pleasure reading genre of choice since I was like... eight. I've never heard anyone say that they found referring to it as sci-fi insulting or derogatory.

I'm not sure why you seem to be making such a big deal of this. Is it so hard not to not use term "sci-fi" in a query letter? Why the insistence on avoiding the industry standard term, and using a potentially offensive term instead? If agents tell you that they don't like the term, where's the harm in not using it around them?

And um... what if someone prefers to be called a "Trekkie" and you call them a "Trekker" ?Well, SF/F has been my pleasure reading genre of choice since I was like... eight. I've never heard anyone say that they found referring to themselves as a "Trekker" as insulting or degatory. :-)

Seriously, if you follow the evolution of the terms "Trekkie" and "Trekker", you see that the latter sprang up because of all of the baggage dumped on the former. The latter is considered the more neutral term by those who know better than I. If I'm playing the odds, and I do whenever I speak, "Trekker" is less likely to offend. However, I'm certainly not going to tell you that you shouldn't use the term "Trekkie" or "SciFi."

As Uncle Jim point outs, it's a tribal marker. You are free to use "SciFi" if you want, but word choice matters. A character who freely uses the term "SciFi" is different from one who avoids it. That word choice implies things about the speaker. You might even say that it's a killing detail.

HConn

02-22-2008, 09:05 PM

SF/F has been my pleasure reading genre of choice since I was like... eight. I've never heard anyone say that they found referring to it as sci-fi insulting or derogatory.

And um... what if someone prefers to be called a "Trekkie" and you call them a "Trekker" ? Aren't you going to be just as offensive? Isn't the movie called Trekkies? And anyway, you're not calling SOMEONE anything, you're calling something a term that is really common. It is the Sci-Fi channel after all.

Yeah, for a certain very active segment of the sf/f reader- and writer-ship, sci-fi is the term outsiders use to describe the genre, and it implies actors in bug-eyed rubber Martian masks trying to Steal Our Women. It's a term that connotes condescension and disrespect among a certain segment of the sf community, especially the older ones.

That association is fading but it's still there.

Caveman

02-23-2008, 07:43 AM

Uncle Jim,
Having read more than my fair share on the Internet, before it even was the Internet, I have to tell you that this is the most informative thread I have had the pleasure of reading. I had previously read pages 1-153 back in 2005, then became involved in a very large project that required most of my time. Having finished that, the thread called be back. Starting over at page 1 again, and reading all the way through to this page made everything even more clear to me than it already was. I would like to thank you, as well as all of the others that have contributed to this thread over the years.

This is my first post on this board, but am sure it will not be my last. I have also become a much better chess player since buying Logical Chess on my first pass through here.

Being a programmer, I tend to think of revising as debugging. Cutting out the cruft, and making my stories flow in a logical order. It is similar to the Celtic Knot-work and flowcharting talked about up-thread.

I do have a question for you or anyone else willing to reply. Having previously been in the video rental business, there are trends in rentals that vary with the strength of the economy. As the economy worsens, the video rental business tended to get better. People have less disposable income, and tend to stay home with cheaper forms of entertainment. Have you found in your experience that the same holds true for novel sales? The opposite effect? Do publishers modify the number of books released by trying to forecast the market? I realize there is quite a lead time in publishing, and it may not be possible. Just curious.

Thank you again,

Dennis

James D. Macdonald

02-23-2008, 12:39 PM

What publishers do, or don't do, I don't know. I'm sure they try their best.

It's always been my opinion that books sales increase when times are hard. People still want entertainment, and dollar-for-hour, books are a great bargain.

BlueLucario

02-23-2008, 08:38 PM

Hey isn't it Uncle Jim's birthday? I think he's 54.

Komnena

02-24-2008, 10:11 AM

Happy Birthday, Uncle Jim!

MoonWriter

02-24-2008, 12:47 PM

The best piece of advice I heard regarding social intercourse: State your point as briefly as possible. If others are interested in what you said, they'll ask questions. If they don't and you chose to elaborate, it will be for nought.

With that in mind, I would like to confess that S.F. is not my favorite genre.
Oh my! So many hands. One at a time. Yes, you. Go ahead. What is your question?

Would you please tell us why you're not a big fan of S.F.? We are so interested in what an unpublished writer has to say.

I would be happy to answer that. You see, I am a simple man, rooted to the earth. Four steps up a ladder is as far into space as I prefer to go. Imagery is confusing and I tend to spend so much time trying to pronounce the characters' names, that I forget where they are, how they got there and what they're doing. I relate better to baseball bats, hot dogs, and cigars, unless the author is trying to trick me with symbolism.

I have a question. Please, may I ask it?

Yes, but it will have to be quick.

What was the real reason you've captivated our attention by stating that you're not a big fan of S.F.?

Very good question and I'm glad you asked it. You see, as much as I prefer other genres, it has come to my attention that our beloved Uncle Jim is a preeminent S.F. writer. It is out of respect for him and in gratitude for his dedication toward educating those less knowledgable in the art of writing that I am inclined to attempt my hand at S.F. Please, tell me what you think of the following:

Powers that be, let the best rotation of Uncle Jim's last revolution be the worst rotation of his new revolution.

Oh, unpublished writer, that was fantastic. But, then again, Uncle Jim has taught us to be respectful.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. In closing, I would like to translate this very confusing and alien statement for our non-S.F. friends: May the best day of your last year be your worst day of your new year.

Happy Birthday, Uncle Jim.
(And may God Bless you.)

P.S. I think I'll stick with sports fiction for middle-grade readers.

BlueLucario

02-24-2008, 07:48 PM

I have a question too. When you have an idea that may freak out your readers. Like it's raining knives and meat cleavers falling on the city and everyone dying. The sight of blood made you feel pleasant.

When you have ideas like that? What do you do? Do you just write it, taking the risk of losing your readers or do you just keep it to your self.

Yeshanu

02-24-2008, 07:55 PM

I have notebooks full of weird ideas that I've had. Don't worry about it "freaking out" readers, or whether it's going to be saleable or not. Just write it down so you don't forget it. You can decide what to do with it later.

And as for really weird ideas that freak people out--they've made Stephen King rather rich. And as someone who works in a movie theatre, I can say this--that stuff sells. Go for it!

Queen of Swords

02-24-2008, 08:00 PM

Blue, this must be at least the fifth time that people have had to reassure you that you can write anything you like.

Bufty

02-24-2008, 09:08 PM

And, Blue, until one is published one doesn't have any flaming readers!

Blue, this must be at least the fifth time that people have had to reassure you that you can write anything you like.

Caveman

02-25-2008, 12:06 AM

Nangleator

02-25-2008, 05:01 AM

History is full of hard names, too! I mean "Vercingetorix"? C'mon!

It's not a bad thing when it hurts a little to read. That's what it feels like to stretch your mind. SF can be particularly effective at it.

MoonWriter

02-25-2008, 07:27 AM

[quote=Caveman;2092449]I thought that newspapers were written for an 8th grade reading level. It seems anymore that they may have lowered it to the 6th or 7th grade level. Would it be better to write a story that has a potentially wider audience?

Caveman - After reading 103 pages of this thread, I'd bet that UJ would say that you should write in the voice of your major character. If he's a college prof. you wouldn't have him speaking like a sailor. And for those of us who have problems with big words, there's always the dictionary.

I remember reading a M. Crichton (sp?) book. He spent ten pages creating plausibility for something or the other. Hey, if he says an underwater community is possible, I believe him and skip the pages it takes him to explain it. Still a decent read.

Tim

pdr

02-25-2008, 10:06 AM

For me some of the best SF has been about us now.

I mean novels where the writer uses the future, or another technology or culture on another planet to write about things which are important now, religious prejudice and intolerance, sexual prejudice where one sex dominates, culture clashes where one culture assumes the right to stamp all over another. Perhaps the best SF makes a reader think about what is happening now in our world as well as enjoying a good story about a different world.

Komnena

02-26-2008, 09:02 PM

Concerning easy names, Tolkien had one important character named Sam.

IdiotsRUs

02-26-2008, 09:07 PM

Occasionally I have a similar thought about names especially in Fantasy. Were there never anyone in an alternate reality, or dimension that was named just plain Jim?

Well there's Jim, AKA the Stainless Steel Rat.
Esme(relda) , granny weather wax, I know an Esme
Harry ( Dresden)
Liam, Tomas and others in Feist.....

Diane

02-26-2008, 11:14 PM

Augh! Can someone help me out? I'm looking for the website that lists current markets, genres, pay rates, etc. for short stories, and I'm certain that the link was originally in Uncle Jim's thread.

mikeland

02-26-2008, 11:25 PM

Diane, duotrope.com is one.

Diane

02-27-2008, 12:16 AM

Diane, duotrope.com is one.

Aha! That's it. Thank you!

MoonWriter

02-28-2008, 10:57 AM

Just wanted to say thanks - not to UJ this time, but to the regulars for not posting in the last couple days. I appreciate ya'll making it easier for me to catch up: page 121 and closing in fast. Just got to the point where the links actually work and I'm loving it. Having retained less than I learned from reading these posts, I'm still miles ahead from where I started. And I know where I can find the info I forgot to remember when I remember that I forgot it - or need it. Out of concern for other newbies facing the same waves as myself (trying not to say "in the same boat" - see, I learned not to use cliches!) I would like to see UJ's thread remain on the first page where it will be more visible. So, to UJ and the regulars, feel free to continue posting - I'll just work harder to catch up.

Hey, at least I got it back on the first page!
Tim

RJK

02-28-2008, 07:05 PM

Stick with it MoonWriter. I went to Uncle Jim's site every chance I got until I read the entire thread. It took me over two months, but I think it was the same as attending a graduate course. I learned so much more than I expected. I am very grateful to Uncle Jim and the other published authors who contribute to this thread. Learning from their experiences is worth more than even they can imagine.

For the rest of you: I'm about to finish draft 1 of my first novel. I have just over 250 pages of what I think is readable text (I've been editing as I write). I think I may have about 20 more pages (totalling about 67K words) of story in this WIP. It seems a little on the short side for a submission. It's a thriller with quite a bit of action. Unfortunately, it only took 250 pages for the good guys to catch up with the bad guys. Any opinions out there?

Nangleator

02-29-2008, 03:16 AM

(I've been editing as I write)

I made that mistake, too. I think the only editing you should do during the first draft is revising plot points. (In other words, changing the past to fit the present -- You know... a good idea shows up part way through the draft and you realize you have to go back and revise in order to make it possible.)

HConn

02-29-2008, 09:29 PM

For the rest of you: I'm about to finish draft 1 of my first novel. I have just over 250 pages of what I think is readable text (I've been editing as I write). I think I may have about 20 more pages (totalling about 67K words) of story in this WIP. It seems a little on the short side for a submission. It's a thriller with quite a bit of action. Unfortunately, it only took 250 pages for the good guys to catch up with the bad guys. Any opinions out there?

My advice: You only have 20 pages left if the good guys catch up to the bad guys and succeed in stopping them. If the good guys fail, with possibly disastrous results, then you have a lot more book to write to wrap up the storyline and you increase the stakes.

Because 67K is definitely too short.

If you have someone cooperating with the protags, have them mislead or trick them instead. If the protags are about to win, made the antagonists smart/deadly/tough enough to kick their heroic behinds.

RJK

02-29-2008, 11:32 PM

Thanks to Hcon and Nangleator for the help. I'll try what you suggest.

Komnena

03-02-2008, 05:09 AM

I think I see now how my messterpiece ends. There's still a long way to go and a lot of loose things to work out before the end, though. One character has really surprised me by doing something very distasteful.

Craig Gosse

03-04-2008, 09:17 AM

"...there is too much. Let me sum up." Inigo to the Man in Black.

To 'Uncle Jim', et al.;
Thank you.

C. Gosse

Paichka

03-04-2008, 09:49 AM

"...there is too much. Let me sum up." Inigo to the Man in Black.

Anybody who quotes The Princess Bride (especially my favorite character) is obviously destined to be my new best friend. :)

Welcome to AW, Craig!

Craig Gosse

03-05-2008, 05:48 AM

Step 1)
BIC

Step 2)
FOK

Step 3)
POWAA(Place One Word After Another - Preferably, in some sort of logical, (and grammatically correct), progression...)

Repeat as necessary...

(*Grin*)

Anybody who quotes The Princess Bride (especially my favorite character) is obviously destined to be my new best friend. :)

Welcome to AW, Craig!

Thank you - nice to be here!

dempsey

03-05-2008, 05:57 AM

Step 2)
FOK

This probably isn't what I think it is.

AnnieColleen

03-05-2008, 05:59 AM

Fingers On Keyboard. :)

dempsey

03-05-2008, 08:43 AM

Fingers On Keyboard. :)

Not even close.

(Also thanks, I didn't actually know what FOK was :) )

Craig Gosse

03-05-2008, 09:00 AM

Step 1)
BIC

Step 2)
FOK

Step 3)
POWAA

...also, quite acceptable as 'Writing a 'Batman; The TV Series' Fight Scene for Beginners'...

(*Grin*)

Komnena

03-07-2008, 06:22 AM

I'm trying to figure out how my two main characters are going to get into the same climactic last part of the messterpiece. I'm hoping that the characters themselves figure it out.

Komnena

03-09-2008, 01:44 AM

Fortunately it did work out. The final total stands at around 45,000 words which is way short but adding needed description and back story should flesh it out.

James D. Macdonald

03-09-2008, 08:31 PM

I would be happy to answer that. You see, I am a simple man, rooted to the earth. Four steps up a ladder is as far into space as I prefer to go. Imagery is confusing and I tend to spend so much time trying to pronounce the characters' names, that I forget where they are, how they got there and what they're doing. I relate better to baseball bats, hot dogs, and cigars, unless the author is trying to trick me with symbolism.

My very good friend, I've been trying to present general principles that pertain to all fiction, not just to science fiction.

Have I given my Chess Set Analogy yet?

Let us take one of those games of chess that I've used as a metaphor for plot and character. The novel is the game.

If you use an Orcs'n'Elves chess set, you have a fantasy novel. If you use a Space-Aliens'n'Rocketmen chess set, you have a science fiction novel. If you use a Housewives'n'College-Professors chess set you have a mainstream novel. If you use a Cunning-Murderers'n'Detectives chess set you have a mystery novel.

The game itself is the same. The characters go to their most effective places; the characters move and interact; surprising combinations develop; a satisfying conclusion is reached. All that's changed is the feel of the game.

When you have ideas like that? What do you do? Do you just write it, taking the risk of losing your readers or do you just keep it to your self.

Write your book. When you've finished, write another book. Repeat.

Occasionally I have a similar thought about names especially in Fantasy. Were there never anyone in an alternate reality, or dimension that was named just plain Jim?

Well, I have an eight-volume science-fantasy series where the main characters' names are Owen, Beka, and Ari.

Close enough?

... adding needed description and back story should flesh it out.

Rather than description and backstory (readers need far less backstory than many writers think), consider adding plot.

Captain Morgan

03-09-2008, 09:13 PM

Arrrgh!

I threw the book against the wall.

I keep meaning to finish it, but... it's been five years now. I don't think I will.

You know Uncle Jim... if you read that book a bit deeper, you may find out that the bs story about the drugged guards is just that.. made up BS, and the REAL explanation is yet to come.

:P

OddButInteresting

03-09-2008, 09:17 PM

MoonWriter

03-09-2008, 10:53 PM

My very good friend, I've been trying to present general principles that pertain to all fiction, not just to science fiction.

Uncle Jim - I didn't mean to imply that you weren't. The reason for the explanation as to why I'm not a big fan of science fiction - I'm a medium sized fan - was meant to show that, in spite of my writing inexperience in that genre, I made the effort to offer you best wishes on your birthday that had a S.F. feel to it. What I should have said was: I suck at writing S.F., but, because I know that U.J. enjoys it, and, because I'd like to show my apprecaition for what he has done, I'm going to make an attempt at wishing him a happy birthday with a S.F. feel.
Tim

Komnena

03-10-2008, 12:14 AM

Thanks for the suggestion of more plot. Right now I have put the messterpiece back for a few days. There are definitely places where I could delve into more plot depth. I don't think I spend enough time exploring the relationships between characters or on the conflict between a viewpoint character's two friends.

James D. Macdonald

03-10-2008, 03:03 AM

I'm facing a dilemma at the moment: stay true to the story and write it in the second-person present, or cop-out and stick to the first or third.

Stay true to the story.

If, after you've finished and let it sit for a few days, you re-read it and discover it isn't working, you can re-write it in some other POV.

Cassiopeia

03-10-2008, 05:29 AM

Let us take one of those games of chess that I've used as a metaphor for plot and character. The novel is the game.

If you use an Orcs'n'Elves chess set, you have a fantasy novel. If you use a Space-Aliens'n'Rocketmen chess set, you have a science fiction novel. If you use a Housewives'n'College-Professors chess set you have a mainstream novel. If you use a Cunning-Murderers'n'Detectives chess set you have a mystery novel.

The game itself is the same. The characters go to their most effective places; the characters move and interact; surprising combinations develop; a satisfying conclusion is reached. All that's changed is the feel of the game.
Now this clinched it for me. Thank you.

Well, I have an eight-volume science-fantasy series where the main characters' names are Owen, Beka, and Ari. Thank you so much for saying that. I'm relieved. I have a hard time with making up "fantasy names" and mine have pretty normal names with maybe a bit of an old world version. I have a hard time reading fantasy work that has odd names because my mind obsesses over how to say them.

RJK

03-10-2008, 07:13 PM

Question for Odd but:
As a beginning author/writer, I try to take advantage of the advice I receive here at AW, particularly from Uncle Jim and the other published authors in this forum. I also read a lot of "How-to" books.
I assume you are fairly new at this vocation. If not, please ignore.
My question is, why would you make things harder for yourself? I see this many times in this forum, where unpublished writers and even those working on their first novel or short story, are trying to incorporate things that very experienced authors often fail at.
I read in another thread where a first time writer had a character with a speech impediment. another one who spoke broken english.
These are very difficult concepts to describe, why would a beginner, add this burden?
Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe this would be a good thread topic?

Potluck

03-10-2008, 07:26 PM

Have I given my Chess Set Analogy yet?

God, I suck at chess. That must mean... Oh crap, I suck as a writer.

Pretty nice analogy though.

Potluck

03-10-2008, 07:37 PM

Hey, Jim.

I'm not sure whether you've covered this yet, but I was wondering what your stance is on second-person writing.

I'm facing a dilemma at the moment: stay true to the story and write it in the second-person present, or cop-out and stick to the first or third. I don't wish to betray the essence of my story, but at the same time really don't fancy running the risk of alienating my reader.

Bear in mind this is a short story intended for contest submission (if that makes any difference).

I'd greatly appreciate any advice you could impart.

Even though Jim has given a very clear definition of Second person in the past it's still very hard to implement.

Let’s say you love the books that are written in second person. Are you sure they are all second person or do they hop in and out from third to second? You might find that your favorite writings are a blend of first person and second person. You might try doing pieces of a chapter in second person to see how it reads. Even in a short story it might be more effective to hop between third and second.

Perle_Rare

03-10-2008, 11:56 PM

I can't believe I've made it to the end of this thread! I must admit that all the hours spent reading have been worth it. I've gained more insight from this thread alone than the half-dozen how-to books on writing I've read up to now.

1. My Logical Chess Move by Move has been shipped and I'll be eagerly running to the mailbox later today to see if it has arrived.

2. No, I haven't done any of the assignments but I'm hoping to start from here onwards, time permitting.

3. I like the image of the Celtic Knot for plotting but I'm still not clear how it all works. I know it's hard to explain without images but I guess what would help me understand the concept better was if, along with the image on Post #3552 (or any other image actually) there was a short description of a plot that had been based on it so I could relate the threads with the plot elements. (For example, one thread is at the top and two are going down. What does that do to the story?)

My next step? Writing! And learning to play chess, of course! :)

Sailor Kenshin

03-11-2008, 05:01 AM

. Four steps up a ladder is as far into space as I prefer to go.

That just made me smile.

James D. Macdonald

03-11-2008, 06:42 AM

3. I like the image of the Celtic Knot for plotting but I'm still not clear how it all works. I know it's hard to explain without images but I guess what would help me understand the concept better was if, along with the image on Post #3552 (or any other image actually) there was a short description of a plot that had been based on it so I could relate the threads with the plot elements. (For example, one thread is at the top and two are going down. What does that do to the story?)

My Circle of Magic (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/wiz1head.htm) series was based on the Celtic Knotwork plot pattern.

Perle_Rare

03-11-2008, 07:16 AM

My Circle of Magic (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/wiz1head.htm) series was based on the Celtic Knotwork plot pattern.

Thanks. I'll pick them up and read them. Which threads / patterns should I be looking for?

OddButInteresting

03-11-2008, 11:35 PM

Warningo! Long post ahead!

I assume you are fairly new at this vocation.

I’ve been creative my whole life. One of my earliest memories is of drawing Thunderbird 2 with crayons (with the “2” on the back fin written backwards). The next earliest creative memory I have is of when I was eight years old, sat at the kitchen table in the evening, designing a poster for my first film idea: Deep Sea Adventure.

I’ve only been writing prose, seriously, for just under a year now. So yes, I am fairly new to it all. But I’ve been expressing myself in writing and imagery for as long as I can remember. I’ve always been a storyteller. I don’t mean to toot my own horn, but in that sense I’m a veteran when it comes to crafting a tale.

Which leads me on to…

As a beginning author/writer, I try to take advantage of the advice I receive here at AW, particularly from Uncle Jim and the other published authors in this forum. I also read a lot of "How-to" books.

I'm against all this "How-to" material, personally. I recognise that there are certain standards that need to be met for the sake of consistency (double-spacing, underlining to indicate italics, new paragraph for a new speaker, etc...), but we shouldn't allow ourselves to be bound by other people's expectations.

I requested Jim's advice because, having read a great deal of this (very long) thread a few months back, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he says. That doesn't mean I accept his words as gospel, but it shows that he's definitely given this some thought. I can invest faith in him to deliver an honest, constructive and helpful response. I would’ve defied his advice had I strongly disagreed with it. That's not to suggest that I'm ungrateful of it, though.

My question is, why would you make things harder for yourself? I see this many times in this forum, where unpublished writers and even those working on their first novel or short story, are trying to incorporate things that very experienced authors often fail at… These are very difficult concepts to describe, why would a beginner, add this burden?

I’m an arts student. Our tutors lap it up when we explore areas unknown to us. In fact, we’re often discouraged from going with the flow. But again, there is always a set of criteria that needs to be met. Writing an academic paper is very similar to writing a manuscript; many of the same standards apply.

But in regards to content, the world is your oyster. No-one can tell you how to write a story. One person’s tray of lasagne is another person’s box of West African snails. Write about what you want, in the manner you want to write it.

The reason I’ve chosen to write in the second person is because it works more effectively than the first or third. First would suffice, but second is contextually-relevant to the story. The intention is for it to seem as if the reader is speaking to the protagonist, rather than the narrator speaking to the reader.

As Jim said, it might work, or it might fall flat on its arse. For now, I’m glad to say that it seems to be working.

Let’s say you love the books that are written in second person. Are you sure they are all second person or do they hop in and out from third to second? You might find that your favorite writings are a blend of first person and second person. You might try doing pieces of a chapter in second person to see how it reads. Even in a short story it might be more effective to hop between third and second.

You know how a lot of professional writers stress the importance of being a reader if you aspire to be a writer? To a degree, that makes sense. But to be honest, I’m not much of a reader at all. I only read on occasion. I write what works for me. If my readers tell me it’s not working, I make the necessary amendments. If you spend your time worrying about what Booker Prize-Winner Joe Bloggs thinks is the “correct” way to tell a story, you’re never going to get anything done.

As for your suggestion, though: jumping in-and-out of points-of-view really wouldn’t work for this story. I’m trying to maintain a consistent level of emotional intensity. Jumping here, there and everywhere would sever, or at least weaken that engagement with the reader. I’ll see how it goes, though.

RJK

03-12-2008, 01:01 AM

To Odd but:
The reason I’ve chosen to write in the second person is because it works more effectively than the first or third. First would suffice, but second is contextually-relevant to the story. The intention is for it to seem as if the reader is speaking to the protagonist, rather than the narrator speaking to the reader.

As Jim said, it might work, or it might fall flat on its arse. For now, I’m glad to say that it seems to be working.

Best of luck to you.
It seems that after falling on my arse many times, I'm now much more conservative.

Sailor Kenshin

03-12-2008, 04:24 AM

To Odd but:

Best of luck to you.
It seems that after falling on my arse many times, I'm now much more conservative.

Life'll do that to ya. ;)

James D. Macdonald

03-12-2008, 09:24 AM

Which threads / patterns should I be looking for?

Look for a circular patter with six major nodes. Look for Will/Randal/Lys, look for hand/head/heart.

It's all there.

RJK

03-12-2008, 06:16 PM

I just saw this on the web. 10 universities are offering free writing courses over the web.
look here http://education-portal.com/articles/10_Universities_Offering_Free_Writing_Courses_Onli ne.html
for more info.
It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it couldn't hurt.

Raphee

03-13-2008, 06:56 PM

I have started re reading Uncle Jim's thread; now that I am stuck with a finished MS that has it's problems.
I intend to go through all of it. Wish me well. And thanks Uncle Jim.

James D. Macdonald

03-13-2008, 09:04 PM

Wish me well.

Good luck!

Make sure the front end of your book matches the back end.

And start writing your next book.

James D. Macdonald

03-14-2008, 08:29 AM

More writing tips for beginners (http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/03/11/evil-monkeys-guide-to-creative-writing-tips-for-beginners/).

And advice on how to write killer short stories (http://io9.com/366707/8-unstoppable-rules-for-writing-killer-short-stories).

Sailor Kenshin

03-15-2008, 03:45 AM

Raphee

03-15-2008, 06:31 PM

Good luck!

Make sure the front end of your book matches the back end.

And start writing your next book.

Could you please elaborate on front end matching back end.

On writing a new novel; I have this inability to multi task on two novels at the same time. I have tried doing it, but it seems that I do this at the detriment of one MS over the other.

HConn

03-15-2008, 07:54 PM

Should have carried a language warning.

Warning! These thoughts are expressed through language.

Sailor Kenshin

03-15-2008, 07:57 PM

Warning! These thoughts are expressed through language.

Very funny---the links contain profanity, and not all of us wish to be bombarded with same.

James D. Macdonald

03-16-2008, 02:18 AM

Could you please elaborate on front end matching back end.

Make sure that everything you planted at the beginning sprouted and bore fruit by the end. Make sure everything you harvest at the end was properly planted at the beginning.

Chekhov's gun and all that.

On writing a new novel; I have this inability to multi task on two novels at the same time. I have tried doing it, but it seems that I do this at the detriment of one MS over the other.

You might surprise yourself.

You aren't writing the old novel any more -- you're editing it.

Try to write a page a day of Something New and Different.

rugcat

03-16-2008, 03:30 AM

Try to write a page a day of Something New and Different.If that was the criterion, I'd never have written anything.

Komnena

03-16-2008, 06:28 PM

I have begun rereading the messterpiece. I think now the capture boxes were violently clumsy but have an idea about what I can do instead.

James D. Macdonald

03-23-2008, 06:41 PM

Happy Easter, y'all.

Manderley

03-23-2008, 07:33 PM

I'm against all this "How-to" material, personally.

(...)

I’m an arts student.

I've never understood this kind of thinking. Why is it perfectly acceptable to study art, but god forbid one should study writing?

James D. Macdonald

03-24-2008, 03:40 AM

There's a time to study how-to, and a time to go-and-do.

MacAllister

03-24-2008, 03:44 AM

Happy Easter, Jim, and everyone.

Ken Schneider

03-24-2008, 06:51 AM

Yes, Happy Easter. It's time to start fresh, all. Make tomorrow your new beginning.

Be well,
Ken

Manderley

03-24-2008, 11:18 PM

There's a time to study how-to, and a time to go-and-do.

Oh, I'm not disputing that. I'm simply flabbergasted by people who want to be writers, yet won't read books nor learn from others.

Ken Schneider

03-26-2008, 07:41 AM

Oh, I'm not disputing that. I'm simply flabbergasted by people who want to be writers, yet won't read books nor learn from others.

Everyone has their own approach to getting from point A to point B. And, what you discribe above may be what the majority of people do, or what some believe and recommend to be gospel. Though I wouldn't deem it the only road to a successful writing career.

I mean, how many folks have done just what flabbergasts you, and have failed anyway?

What works for some doesn't for others. Pick your best route and travel it to the best of your abilities. Writing is all about trial and error, isn't it.

IceCreamEmpress

03-26-2008, 08:22 AM

Though I wouldn't deem it the only road to a successful writing career.

I think that reading books is absolutely essential to having a successful writing career. I really don't think there's any other way you can do it. I have never encountered a successful professional writer who did not read.

James D. Macdonald

03-26-2008, 05:10 PM

I have never encountered a successful professional writer who did not read.

Reading in general, yes. Reading how-to-write books? Maybe not so much.

IdiotsRUs

03-26-2008, 05:14 PM

Reading in general, yes. Reading how-to-write books? Maybe not so much.

They can help with the technical aspect, get you thinking about how you write -- and that's a good thing. Past a certain point, though, it's up to you.

Like a cookbook - they teach you the basics, and then after a certain point, your recipes are your own invention. Knowing the basic technical stuff gives you a nice base to leap from.

Ken Schneider

03-26-2008, 06:03 PM

The positive side of reading other literary works is, seeing how someone who was successful, did it. How they made the reader care about the character, painted scenes with words that put you there, etc.

The negative, You also can become, and most do, a copycat. Sometimes it's good to be a copycat, and sometimes it isn't.

Take for instance JRR Tollkiens works. They didn't become popular until after his death. His fantasy world was a new realm that hadn't been uncovered previously, and the lord of the rings was not popular in the least, if you can believe that. Brilliant imagination.

Terry Brooks as much as admitted that after reading Tolkiens works he wrote the Sword of Shannara. The parallels are unmistakeable.
From Brook's Alanon/Tollkien Gandolf, to Shea Omhsford/Bilbo Baggins. And it doesn't stop there! The Shire/Shady vale, The unwillingness to go on an adventure, and the longing to return to what once was and knowing it never will be the same again. It's like watching a re-run evertime you pick up a book. Did it work for him, sure it did. Had we seen it before, yes. Are we still seeing it, yes. And we'll continue to see it. Tollkien imagined a whole new genre and he's still copied today from cranium to toenail.

I wish we had a new master imaginator in our world, instead of copycats on different colored horses.

So it's good to read as a writer,agreed. What we learn and employ....

Good luck in whatever you have in the works.
Ken

bsolah

03-27-2008, 04:17 AM

The positive side of reading other literary works is, seeing how someone who was successful, did it. How they made the reader care about the character, painted scenes with words that put you there, etc.

I've also found there is some benefit in reading other literary works to see how someone was unsuccessful.

I find after reading bad fiction, you can highlight what was wrong and be sure to avoid it in your own writing.

Ken Schneider

03-27-2008, 05:51 PM

I've also found there is some benefit in reading other literary works to see how someone was unsuccessful.

I find after reading bad fiction, you can highlight what was wrong and be sure to avoid it in your own writing.

If you bought and read it, the book was successful.

To me, anything that gets published by a reputable publishing house and is sold in bookshops has merit. Therefore isn't bad writing, just not the readers cup of tea if rejected as such.

Publisher's editors know what they're looking at when they read a script and wouldn't publish slush. They're in it to make money, and publishing bad writing doesn't further their cause.

RJK

03-27-2008, 06:41 PM

I will begin this with IMHO.
Writing is a craft as much as it is an art. As a craft, there are skills that must be learned. How-to books are one source for learning those skills. Just sitting in front of a keyboard and writing will not help you acquire skills that you do not have. Once you learn the skill, writing will help you hone the skill.
I played golf for several years, never breaking 100. In one game I played with a scratch golfer, who watched my swing and showed me how to swing properly. My game improved considerably because I learned a new skill.
Since I don't have someone like Uncle Jim looking over my shoulder as I write, I need to look elsewhere to learn the skills. I look to the How-to books among other places. I also read them with the full knowledge that the author's way is not the ONLY way. I should also note that I have learned as much from this forum, as I have from the books, but I don't think I would have had the level of understanding of the topics discussed here, had I not done my homework with the How-to books.
With all that said, I will agree with Uncle Jim, You must write to become a writer.

StoryMonkey

03-28-2008, 10:21 PM

Hi,

I am new around here, but I have finished the first draft of my first novel. I have also written a large number of small stories.

This thread (I am up to page 6, but couldn't stand not giving kudo's), is absolutely amazing.

Thanks for your effort, thanks for helping me in my writing career even though you have never met me.

Bob

IceCreamEmpress

03-28-2008, 10:32 PM

Reading in general, yes. Reading how-to-write books? Maybe not so much.

Oh, yes. I couldn't agree more.

I thought the poster meant reading in general. I'm not such a fan of most how-to-write books (though you'll pry my copy of Patricia Highsmith's Plotting and Writing Suspense Fiction out of my cold, dead hands--and there's a Highsmith image right there!)

James D. Macdonald

03-28-2008, 11:12 PM

Take for instance JRR Tollkiens works. They didn't become popular until after his death.

Say what? The Lord of the Rings was incredibly popular in the mid-sixties, and hasn't stopped since. (Do you recall the text on the back of the Ballantine edition, "Those who approve of courtesy, at least, to living authors...."?) Do you remember the Ace Books pirate edition?

Yes, The Sword of Shanara was as close to plagiarism of The Lord of the Rings as copyright law would allow. Lester Del Rey knew it, but figured (correctly) that he'd make a ton of money by publishing it.

RHQ

03-30-2008, 08:56 PM

I only joined AW about a week ago. I soon found this thread and it is all I've been reading in my spare time since! Thank you Mr. MacDonald for such an informative thread! I have read many books on writing, but none of them gave such down to earth and understandable advice as you do.

I will soon be published. My first book is called Open Your Heart with Quilting and is due out in August 2008 from Dreamtime Publishing. (And to steal a bit from UJ - Buy one! Buy a dozen! Pre-order now!) I know that's a non-fiction title, but it's a start and I'm just thrilled that I'll have an actual book in the stores!

Since starting to read this thread (I'm only up to page 98!) I have used your index card method to outline a novel that has been percolating in my brain since last fall. About a month ago it finally came to me how to tell a story I've been mulling over and using the index cards helped me organize my thoughts.

I had never thought of writing in terms of individual scenes, but that has helped me see where I need to add or subtract certain things that I just assumed would be included (or not). I copied my outline notes into a spreadsheet because I find that more user-friendly than the cards. I added columns to indicate which characters are in a given scene, whose POV it is told from, who the main character is, and other details. Now I can sort by any of those criteria with just a click (which is a lot easier than reorganizing a mess of cards!)

I have started allotting some time every day to BIC - but not two hours. With other things going on in my life right now (planning a wedding for one) that's not feasible, but I did write first drafts of two scenes the other night, so I'm making progress. Since I earn my living at something other than writing, I don't mind taking my time.

Anyway, thank you for this thread! I'll try to catch up!

And I am amazed to see that this thread is still alive 4 years after it started!

RHQ aka Kelly aka RedHeadedQuilter

Ken Schneider

03-31-2008, 01:56 AM

Say what? The Lord of the Rings was incredibly popular in the mid-sixties, and hasn't stopped since. (Do you recall the text on the back of the Ballantine edition, "Those who approve of courtesy, at least, to living authors...."?) Do you remember the Ace Books pirate edition?

Yes, The Sword of Shanara was as close to plagiarism of The Lord of the Rings as copyright law would allow. Lester Del Rey knew it, but figured (correctly) that he'd make a ton of money by publishing it.

I stand corrected with a cavet.

Peter Beagle writes in a forward,(1973) in my addition of the Hobbitt:

It had been 15 years since he discovered the book in the Carnegie library in Pittsburg after searching for it for four years, when the book/s were hard to find, after reading a review by W. H. Auden's in the NY times.

I would have been better served to say that the trilogy didn't burst onto the scene with widespread popularity until years after it's first printing in 1937. It took many years for the reading public to accept and catch-up with this portion of his excellent body of work.

Tolkein died in '71.

IdiotsRUs

03-31-2008, 02:11 AM

I would have been better served to say that the trilogy didn't burst onto the scene with widespread popularity until years after it's first printing in 1937. It took many years for the reading public to accept and catch-up with this portion of his excellent body of work.

Tolkein died in '71.

It was first published in 1954 ( the Fellowship), and had a reasonable following straight away ( all those who grew up on the Hobbit, which was first issued in 1937, and sold every one of its copies in three months) . Ok, it took till the sixties to get mega popular, but still, the Lord of the Rings was only written / published because the Hobbit was so poular. . Tolkien was definately alive to witness the sucess of LOTR, because he complained about people ringing him at 3 in the morning to ask if the balrog had wings or not.

Edit :A quick check reveals that:

Despite the book's popularity, paper rationing brought on by wartime conditions and not ended until 1949 meant that the book was often unavailable in this period

which would account for it being difficult to get hold of in 1952 ( ie 15 years after publication)

pdr

03-31-2008, 06:04 AM

that 'Lord of the Rings' was a British book and published there first. There were, and still are, conventions about where a book may be sold depending on where it was published. British published books did not go into the USA until they had a US publisher.

I believe this is why Americans had such a problem buying the book.
In the UK the book was a steady seller from the first edition.

James D. Macdonald

03-31-2008, 09:32 AM

Bizarre copyright regulations put The Lord of the Rings in the public domain in the USA, which is why Ace was able to publish a pirate edition without the author's approval (or paying him any royalties). That's why the Ballantine edition, which was registered in the USA, is substantially different from the British first edition (among other things, Aragorn's sense of humor was removed in the revision process).

roseangel

04-03-2008, 01:23 PM

I just finished this whole thread and I want to say thank you so much Uncle Jim!
You are the best teacher ever.
Everything you have said has made so much sense!
I also find it very interesting that the only Tom Swift book I have ever read is by you.

RHQ

04-04-2008, 10:10 PM

Can anyone give me advice about how to elegantly blend two story lines taking place at different times in history?

My main present day character finds a cache of documents (scrapbooks, journals, photos, postcards, letters, etc.) relating to a tragedy that happened in her house years before. Her life somewhat mirrors the life of the main historical character. I want her to slowly uncover the older story through her reading of the documents she finds.

Meanwhile stuff will be happening in her own life too. Right now I am planning to put her scenes in separate chapters with excerpts from the documents in their own chapters. Does that make sense? Or is it one of those "Write it and see how it feels" deals?

I don't have a good handle on the ending yet (I know what will happen, but am wondering how to make it dramatic enough), but I do like my opening. I had a revelation about a relationship between two characters the other night that will require some tinkering with the outline and maybe some new plot threads, but beyond that I think I have a good idea of where I am headed and I am looking forward to some BIC time this weekend!

Thanks in advance!
Kelly

CutteRug

04-05-2008, 10:51 AM

Hi Kelly, welcome!

Having read this entire thread and seen that on many occasions, UJ's advice is to 'read a book in which what you are trying to do is done well', I'll chime in with a suggestion...

Read "Splintered Icon" by Bill Napier. It does an admirable job of marrying its current-day storyline with an unfolding drama of a sixteenth century man whose long-lost diary the current-day characters are translating and reading.

It sounds like a fair example of what you're going for. Hope it helps!

Cheers,

Adam

RHQ

04-05-2008, 06:38 PM

Hey thanks Adam. I'll look for it!

I'll check my local library and hope they have it. They told me the other day that they can no longer order in books from other places due to state budget cuts. :-( (I was looking for some of the books UJ recommended, but no luck.)

Thanks again,
Kelly

Hi Kelly, welcome!

Read "Splintered Icon" by Bill Napier. It does an admirable job of marrying its current-day storyline with an unfolding drama of a sixteenth century man whose long-lost diary the current-day characters are translating and reading.

It sounds like a fair example of what you're going for. Hope it helps!

aonarach

04-05-2008, 07:58 PM

James D. Macdonald

04-07-2008, 02:56 AM

I'm just back from I-con, where we did a little workshop (which I participated in).

During one of the sessions I had an insight into the employment of characters in short stories:

Use 'em, abuse 'em, or lose 'em.

I trust I do not need to unpack that?

=============

The Historian? As it happens, post 4812 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710&page=193) in this very thread is the first two pages from that work, as we play "Would you turn the page?"

=============

And welcome, roseangel! What are you working on?

HConn

04-08-2008, 11:40 PM

Hey, Potluck. Your post at #6708 is what the "I disapprove" button under "reputation" was created for.

alvin123

04-10-2008, 10:56 PM

James D. Macdonald

04-12-2008, 02:51 AM

Don't worry over-much about your openings when you start. When you reach "The End," the appropriate opening will become apparent.

James D. Macdonald

04-12-2008, 02:53 AM

Art is not life.

While revenge makes a dandy plot-engine it's a lousy way to spend your time.

BlueLucario

04-12-2008, 03:08 AM

Beginnings.... ouch.... for me that is.....

I'm just not good with begginings such as chapter one or a prologue. I KNew i was going to end up not having any readers enjoy those chapters, but i just don't know how to start off with the appropriate begging in order to grab readers.

I agree with Jim. Beginnings tend to suck the first time anyway. If you MUST write a beginning, think of how a movie starts.

Queen of Swords

04-12-2008, 04:39 AM

If you MUST write a beginning, think of how a movie starts.

I don't agree with this advice. A lot of movies start with a view of the mountains or the Golden Gate Bridge or whatever before they show us the main character. Starting with description of the landscape in a novel will often lose readers. Some movies start with an expository crawl. That might not work too well in a novel either.

Movies =/= books.

Perle_Rare

04-12-2008, 05:43 AM

I believe Uncle Jim has it right: Write to the end and then come back and figure out where the beginning really is. You might be surprised to find that the beginning is really in the middle of chapter 4 or it might be before anything you've written yet. You might even find you have to re-write the beginning to match the great ending you just wrote!

So don't sweat it till you've gotten to "The End" (as Uncle Jim says). By then, the right beginning should become fairly obvious.

... of course, I haven't gotten to "The End" yet so it's all theory to me... but I already know my beginning has to be changed to match with the way my WIP is going so I figure the advice is sound and I'm certainly planning to follow it!

alvin123

04-12-2008, 11:51 PM

thanks for the great advice, Jim,
I appriciate it.

SkyeSurfer

04-14-2008, 11:45 PM

Hello all I have hopped around through these posts a bit and find I have much homework to do. I am in awe of how much information is here and how valuable it is- I would remiss without mentioning though- CAN WE GET A LINK TO HERE WHEN PEOPLE ATTEMPT TO PUBLISH WITH CERTAIN PLACES THAT WILL KILL THEIR JOY AND INTEREST IN WRITING? Please tell me PA and WLA read these posts.
Ok, better now- I am gonna retype Stephen King and learn all I can so when I get my custody of my child back I will be better prepared this time around- Thank you so much for.... it all. There is still so much to see and learn here! I am in heaven which is fair since I just left hell.

Komnena

04-24-2008, 08:10 AM

My first draft is so awful I don't think there's any salvaging it.

Nangleator

04-24-2008, 04:33 PM

Then it was good writing practice. And good editing practice. And good typing practice.

In your upcoming works, pick over it like a Thanksgiving turkey on Saturday. Pull out the good bits and be ready to discard the carcass.

allenparker

04-24-2008, 06:10 PM

Or better yet, spend some time on the first couple of chapters and fix them, even if it means rewriting the entire chapters.

Even of there is no salvation in the work, it will be great practice at editing. Who knows, you might find the story is not dead an can be fixed.

Just a thought...

James D. Macdonald

04-24-2008, 07:02 PM

My first draft is so awful I don't think there's any salvaging it.

Then your second draft will surely be better.

Have you left your book to marinate in your desk drawer for three months while you worked on something else? Books that suck immediately after you've finished them often improve just by letting them age.

Print the whole thing out. Get a couple of red pencils and a sharpener. Go to a coffeehouse or a library. Read your manuscript page-by-page, scribbling all over it as you find things that can be moved, changed, fixed, made better, deleted, expanded, or reshuffled to a different POV.

Go back and retype.

Or... try retyping your book entirely from memory.

I know a writer who creates her second drafts by re-keyboarding the book. If it isn't worth retyping a passage, that passage it isn't worth reading.

nybx4life

04-25-2008, 04:18 AM

I'm currently working on my first chapter (revising it, I should say), and the biggest criticism of them all appears in my face: YOUR TENSES ARE MESSED UP

Of course, the last time I checked into a grammar lesson was years ago.
I know my work would really be a good read if I can get my grammar fixed up.
Any advice, exercises, things I should know?

Yes, yes, I know I should be ashamed for not having good grammar, but I'm trying to make up for it by tightening up that screw now

honeycomb

04-25-2008, 06:52 AM

Hi James,

Wow! Thanks for starting this thread. It should be required for all readers.

My problem is info dumps.

When do I use them?

How do I use them?

Do you have examples of good and bad info dumps?

Thx

Diane

04-25-2008, 07:00 AM

Present tense - that which is happening now
* I walk to the store (simple present)
* I am walking to the store (this is technically "the present progressive" and it's much weaker than the simple present. Present tense helping verb + verb gerund)
* The store is walked to by me (this is the passive and you should probably avoid this)

Past tense - that which has happened
* I went to college (simple past: I did something in the past, and it lasted for some unknown period of time)
* I have gone to college (past perfect: I did something in the past, and I completed the action already. Formed by present tense helping verb + past)
* I had gone to college (pluperfect: this is the tricky one that you should probably avoid -- it's the tense that indicates that this action happened before another action, as in "I had gone to college before I took my big tour of Europe" gives a vastly different arrangement of when things occurred than "I had taken my big tour of Europe before I went to college." Formed by past tense helping verb + past)

Future tense - that which is to happen.
* I will go to Mars (simple future: a statement of definite intent)
* I will have gone to Mars (future perfect: something will happen and finish at a time in the future. It's very rarely used these days.)

James D. Macdonald

04-25-2008, 11:17 PM

My problem is info dumps.

Use infodumps sparingly. The readers need far less information than you think. (In particular, never tell the reader something before he cares about it.)

Sometimes the best way to deliver an infodump is to just take a paragraph or so saying the thing.

The worst way to infodump is with the "As You Know, Bob" dialog trick. ("As you know, Bob, Ronald Reagan was born in an apartment above the local bank building in Tampico, Illinois on February 6, 1911 to John "Jack" Reagan and Nelle Wilson Reagan....") Particularly avoid having two characters explaining things to each other that they both already know perfectly well--two Marine Corps sergeants won't discuss the standard number of men in a standard Marine Corps squad, even if the author desperately needs to let the readers know that there are twelve men per squad.

Good infodumps? Mine, of course.

nybx4life

04-26-2008, 03:46 AM

Okay, just wondering, in terms of story and cliches, what is one of the basic "avoid-at-all-costs" things I should be aware of?

I've seen you cover idiot plots, and I'm sure my plot isn't idiotic, so I want to see what other things might totally sink a story (my story, to be precise, but any fantasy storyline in general would work)

James D. Macdonald

04-26-2008, 06:40 PM

Some things that drive me frantic include The Character Describes Himself By Looking in a [mirror/puddle/polished wood on the top of the bar] and Describing What He Sees. This goes double if the character is female and goes on to a complete and loving description of her breasts.

Other cliches: you've seen the various Evil Overlord lists (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)? Or this list of Science Fiction cliches (http://www.cthreepo.com/cliche/).

If you want to find out if your fantasy story is Just Another Fantasy Story, you can't do better than pick up a copy of Diana Wynne Jones' The Tough Guide to Fantasyland (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0886778328/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) and read it (wincing) all the way through.

Komnena

04-26-2008, 06:41 PM

It's sat for some time. I've been going back and taking out all the ly adjectives and was surprised at how much that tightened things up. I think I should have stuck more to the traditional fairy tale I based my messterpiece on. It would have been a stronger story, I think. On my latest look I no longer think I utterly wasted my time. I learned more than I thought in the doing.
Thanks very much for all the useful advice, Uncle Jim.

James D. Macdonald

04-26-2008, 09:58 PM

I think I should have stuck more to the traditional fairy tale I based my messterpiece on. It would have been a stronger story, I think.

Try it that way in the next draft. What's stopping you?

Tam Lin (http://www.thumpermonkey.com/mp3/Tam_Lin.mp3)

O I forbid ye, maidens a',
Who wear jeans on your ass,
Tae come or gae by San Berdoo
Where Tam Lin's sellin' grass.

There's none that gae by San Berdoo
But wish that they were dead:
He'll either burn you for some weed
Or nail you in his bed.

Janet's put on her miniskirt
Cut high abo' the knee
An' she's awa' tae San Berdoo
As fast as drive can she.

She had not entered in a bar
Nor ordered up a beer
When up and sauntered young Tam Lin
Says "Whatchoo doin' here?"

Queen of Swords

04-26-2008, 10:42 PM

Some things that drive me frantic include The Character Describes Himself By Looking in a [mirror/puddle/polished wood on the top of the bar] and Describing What He Sees.

Would it be any better if the character described something strange? Such as, "I looked at myself in the mirror and applied kohl to my third eye. Lovely."

James D. Macdonald

04-26-2008, 10:53 PM

Only if the third eye was necessary to the plot, and the reader cared about it by the time it was mentioned.

Melenka

04-26-2008, 11:03 PM

Some things that drive me frantic include The Character Describes Himself By Looking in a [mirror/puddle/polished wood on the top of the bar] and Describing What He Sees.

I have one scene where my MC does this, but it is brief. He notices his scars and the look in his eyes (after remembering something terrible).

In fact, I have been criticized for not describing my MCs in detail. Basics are there - body type, hair and eye color - but I don't feel the need to go on about them, partly because it's not all that important and partly because I feel readers are perfectly capable of providing the details themselves. Not sure if that strategy is okay, but I suppose if it isn't, an editor will make me go back and put in more.

Exir

04-27-2008, 03:20 AM

In fact, I have been criticized for not describing my MCs in detail. Basics are there - body type, hair and eye color - but I don't feel the need to go on about them, partly because it's not all that important and partly because I feel readers are perfectly capable of providing the details themselves. Not sure if that strategy is okay, but I suppose if it isn't, an editor will make me go back and put in more.

Don't worry - most readers are perfectly alright with that. I've seen plenty of books where the main character's looks are not described in detail.

James D. Macdonald

04-27-2008, 05:57 AM

In fact, I have been criticized for not describing my MCs in detail.

Workshop, right?

That's a cheap'n'easy workshop critique: "I'd like to [have more description of|know more about] X."

What that means is that the reader didn't have the entire work available; wasn't under the spell when selection started and had to stop before momentum could build.

Shweta

04-27-2008, 06:38 AM

Back to descriptions -- how about if there are two races & I'm describing how they see each other? I don't think I've done any descriptions that aren't... biased somehow according to the POV, and providing social information as well as physical. Still.

IceCreamEmpress

04-27-2008, 08:51 PM

Some things that drive me frantic include The Character Describes Himself By Looking in a [mirror/puddle/polished wood on the top of the bar] and Describing What He Sees.

I just finished Laurie King's Touchstone and I thought I would lose my mind from the number of times this happened. Several times per main character, and I am not exaggerating.

I usually love Laurie King, and this book was so disappointing in so many ways--turgid, full of "musing", and then this. I wonder if she's changed editors? It just seems like someone should have read her the riot act about some of the self-indulgences that littered this book and ruined its interesting premise and setting.

"Musing" is the mortal sin I find most easy to fall into. Or rather, my characters do. Also "pondering" and "reflecting".

Melenka

04-27-2008, 09:25 PM

Workshop, right?

That's a cheap'n'easy workshop critique: "I'd like to [have more description of|know more about] X."

College classroom was good for that, too. The profs were fine with it, but there were always folks who wanted all the background questions answered. In a short story, that's neither possible nor desirable. The other place it comes from is friends who prefer to read high fantasy and/or romance novels containing lavish description. I read those, too, but this is not that sort of story. Not really sure what genre (if any) it fits, but it is spare and dark and I plan to keep it that way. My solution is to limit who can read it in draft. Lesson learned.

Komnena

04-28-2008, 04:46 PM

What has been stopping me is my fear that this next draft will be no better.I'm afraid that I will never have the talent to write something that deserves more than PA.

A. J. Luxton

04-28-2008, 07:20 PM

I've got a drive-by for Komnena -- I always wind up deeply, madly in hate with anything novel-sized throughout the last stretch and directly after I've finished. I was still in said hate when I sent the latest off, but knew it was a delusion because a pro I respect really liked it; by the time I got the comments back from the agent I could actually stand to look at the thing again, revised according to her comments, and last week accepted her offer of representation.

I think it's roommate syndrome: spend too long dealing with someone or something and all their idiosyncrasies, and that tiny pile of dirty laundry seems to fill the whole house. If a story needs to sit, let it sit. I can't revise while I'm in hater mode lest I mutilate something. Come back to it when you're cynical yet optimistic...

Komnena

04-29-2008, 06:54 AM

I'm making another try at starting a new draft, which hopefully will be better.

Shweta

04-29-2008, 07:11 AM

What has been stopping me is my fear that this next draft will be no better.I'm afraid that I will never have the talent to write something that deserves more than PA.

Maybe just try editing a chapter? Even a paragraph. You'll probably see the improvement :)

jbryson

04-29-2008, 08:23 AM

College classroom was good for that, too. The profs were fine with it, but there were always folks who wanted all the background questions answered. In a short story, that's neither possible nor desirable. The other place it comes from is friends who prefer to read high fantasy and/or romance novels containing lavish description. I read those, too, but this is not that sort of story. Not really sure what genre (if any) it fits, but it is spare and dark and I plan to keep it that way. My solution is to limit who can read it in draft. Lesson learned.

Some people don't want fiction. They want a travelogue.

goatpiper

04-29-2008, 11:30 PM

Uncle J,

Sorry ahead of time if this has been covered by you in this massive thread - I've only poked around it, I haven't made the time to digest the whole monster.

My first novel (currently in revision) is not a fantasy, but I did invent an American east-coast city to accommodate my story. This city has got some very interesting aspects to it, many that could be considered fantastical, but we're talking a modern urban behemoth here.

How do I bring this invented environment to life without getting bogged down in an info-dump? I want it to live and be a character in the novel, not a blockade. Some of what I've written just seems to stop the forward movement of my narrative, but I still feel I need to convey what's in these clunky sections. I know less is more, but I don't want people saying to themselves 'What the $@#$?' while reading it because they don't understand how the city is structured.

ClaudiaGray

04-30-2008, 12:20 AM

I think the level of description of your characters should fit the level of description you're giving the rest of the book. It makes no sense to lovingly describe every curl of your heroine's hair in a fast-paced crime thriller; however, to me it also makes no sense to provide no character description in a very richly atmospheric book that offers detailed descriptions of place. Very detailed descriptions of characters work when (a) they fit with the overall tone of your work and (b) the description of their appearance manages to be about more than their appearance, to also reveal something of the person within.

Right now, I'm thinking of Doctorow's Ragtime, in which he describes Woodrow Wilson rather thoroughly, ending with the line, "He had the prim, renunciatory mouth of one who has eaten fish with bones in it." That's just genius.