Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[James D. Macdonald]

Back on page 190 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710&page=190&pp=25) of this thread, Andrew Jameson referred to a post that I'd made elsewhere. Discussion followed. Since the question has come up again, I think I'll repost that other comment here, so everything will be in one convenient place.

Without further ado:

=============

No, no, no! You don't pay the publisher $4,000! The publisher pays you $4,000! You're the one with the thing of value!

==============

Meanwhile, another PA thread here: Agent's Interesting Observation (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=7741)

A PA author says:

From Writer's Digest, Nov 2005: "Agent Lori Perkins of the L. Perkins Agency in New York says it's much easier to market a first-time novelist's book if the word count falls between 80,000 and 100,000 words, or roughly 300 double-spaced, typed pages--the average novel length.

"One-third of the novels that come into the agency are rejected because they're too long or short, (Perkins says), "The cost greatly increases on books larger than 100,000, so agents and publishers are less likely to gamble on a manuscript the size of a dictionary." END OF QUOTE.

It's good to know we don't have that problem with Publish America, who, from my experience, publishes relatively small books as well as those exceeding 300 pages.

I thought this might be helpful to those of you, who may be holding a manuscript and wondering what to do with it. Send it to PA for review. Maybe it will jump-start your writing career. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Let me explain this, because I can see there's some confusion.

Publishers don't drive publishing. Printers don't drive publishing. Agents don't drive publishing. Bookstores don't drive publishing. Nor do editors. Not even writers drive publishing.

Do you want to know who drives publishing? It's the readers.

First thing you should know: Readers have a sticking-point when it comes to prices. That price is around $28 for a trade cloth (hardcover) book.

Second thing you should know: The unit price of a book decreases as the print run goes up.

Third thing you should know: First novels by unknowns have relatively predictable, and relatively small, sales.

Bookstores won't order books with cover prices that customers won't pay. They can fill the same shelf space with books that might move.

The longer the book, the higher the cost of printing it.

Say a book comes in at 120,000 words. Say it's a normal first novel by an unknown. The publisher figures that it'll sell perhaps 5,000 copies, which means printing and shipping around 7,000 copies.

The publisher can't do that and maintain a price point below $28, while covering their overhead and making a profit.

So they raise the cover price. What happens? Bookstores decrease their orders. So the print run has to go down. That makes the price go up. The bookstores look at the new price, and decrease their orders again. You see where this is going?

Why is all this happening? Because readers won't open their wallets for trade cloth books above $28. Not even by authors they know and like.

What's the solution? Going to PublishAmerica isn't it. Sure, PA will accept the book. They accept anything. Will this jump-start your career? No. Because however high a real publisher would have had to put the price of a hardcover, PA will put the price of a trade paperback even higher. Readers, we know, won't touch the book. You've thrown away your first rights, you're locked into an unfavorable seven-year contract, and your sales history will be horrible.

The real answer is this: Write and sell another book of a more marketable length for a first-time writer. After it comes out, and it's bought and read, you'll have fans who are looking for your next book. Then you can bring out that 120,000 word book. The publisher will be able to print enough copies to justify a $28 price point. Your fans will buy it, new readers will buy it, and you have a happy ending.

Short books, now ... novellas are very hard to sell to publishers. Why? Because readers don't buy them.

I could discuss the path that brought Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, (a first novel weighing in at 800 typeset pages) to press. Notice, please, the price point: $27.95.

How did Bloomsbury manage that? By printing a ton of them. What did they do then? They launched a huge publicity campaign to move that ton of books.

Why did they do that for Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell? Because they believed in it. Why don't they do that for every book? Because they have limited resources, even with a bank account the size of Rhode Island full of Potter-bucks backing them up. Plus, even with the biggest publicity campaign in the world, if the readers don't like the book they'll leave it lying on the shelf.

Please notice that Lori Perkins specified a "first-time novelist." Those are the ones who rely on impulse purchases in bookstores. When you're relying on impulse purchasing, it behooves you to make your book the sort of thing that readers who are buying on impulse are likely to take.

[James D. Macdonald]

From email:

> From our friends at the US Department of Labor:
>
> 131.067-046 WRITER, PROSE, FICTION AND NONFICTION (profess. & kin.)
> alternate titles: writer
> Writes original prose material for publication: Selects subject matter
> based on personal interest or receives specific assignment from publisher.
> Conducts research and makes notes to retain ideas, develop factual
> information, and obtain authentic detail. Organizes material and plans
> arrangement or outline. Develops factors, such as theme, plot, order,
> characterization, and story line. Writes draft of manuscript. Reviews,
> revises, and corrects it and submits material for publication. Confers
> with publisher's representative regarding manuscript changes. May
> specialize in one or more styles or types of writing, such as descriptive
> or critical interpretations or analyses, essays, magazine articles, short
> stories, novels, and biographies. PHYSICAL DEMANDS ENVIRONMENTAL
> CONDITIONS S C B S K C C R H F F T H T N F D A C F W C H H N V A M E H R S
> N N N N N N F F F N O O N F N N N N N N N N N 2 N N N N N N N T O N N
>
> GOE: 01.01.02 STRENGTH: S GED: R6 M3 L6 SVP: 8 DLU: 77
>
> If you decide you can't live without the knowledge, I can explain what all
> the codes letters and numbers mean. However, the basics are: this entry
> comes from the DOL's useful publication, the Dictionary of Occupations and
> Trades, and the description was last updated in 1977. The DOL considers it
> to be sedentary work, which, to them, means you sit for at least 6 hours a
> day, but stand and walk for no more than 2, and lift no more than 10
> pounds occasionally (up to 1/3 of an 8-hour day) and under 10 pounds
> frequently (up to 2/3 of an 8-hour day). The DOL considers this occupation
> to have an SVP (Specific Vocational Preparation) rating of 8, which means
> it takes 4 to 10 years to become proficient at this (a useful thing to
> point out to those who would write: "Even the US government, dolts that
> they are, realize you don't learn this job overnight!"). Some of the other
> codes explain exposure to hazards like electrocution and other Fun Stuff.

[aertep]

"...The DOL considers this occupation
> to have an SVP (Specific Vocational Preparation) rating of 8, which means
> it takes 4 to 10 years to become proficient..."


Um, does the DOL mention anything about on-the-job training?

[James D. Macdonald]

OJT is pretty much how writers learn anything at all.

[zornhau]

It's not really On the Job when you're not being paid for it! More AIAB (Apprenticeship In A Barrel).

[Nangleator]

It's a small step up from apprenticeship.

You work really hard for a year, or so. If your work was good enough, you might get paid something for it.

[Avalon]

Wah, I'm thinking it'll take me 10 or 15 years!

[James D. Macdonald]

We frequently link to Making Light (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/) as one of the best places for writing-related information. Now there's a poll for "Best Blog," (http://weblogawards.org/2005/12/best_of_the_top_250_blogs.php) and Making Light is one of the choices. If you like Making Light, perhaps you might make your voice heard.

(Full disclosure: I'm one of the posters at Making Light.)

[Ken Schneider]

We frequently link to Making Light (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/) as one of the best places for writing-related information. Now there's a poll for "Best Blog," (http://weblogawards.org/2005/12/best_of_the_top_250_blogs.php) and Making Light is one of the choices. If you like Making Light, perhaps you might make your voice heard.

(Full disclosure: I'm one of the posters at Making Light.)

Full disclouser, I read over there, M.L., but haven't posted.

Interesting story about the murder next door to the hosts' of M.L..

I do feel better, now, about the post upstream concerning time in grade for writers with regards to success, as the DOL sees it.

That means two to eight years to the possibitiy of publication, for me. Maybe sooner should my skull thin enough to allow needy info to sink in.

Practice makes perfect, and that is a lot of M.s.'s to pound out before I catch on.

But, it also is reassuring and gives me a benchmark and time to develope before I give up.http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[AnnaWhite]

Thanks for this great thread, Uncle Jim. I've been reading it from the beginning, and have learnt a lot... though it's going to take me some time to catch up!

[James D. Macdonald]

It's been a while since I handed out an assignment, so here goes: Due on Christmas Day!

As you no doubt recall, in the novel Frankenstein, young William Frankenstein is murdered. The murder is blamed on Justine Moritz, who is (unjustly) hanged for the offense.

The murder was actually committed by the wretch created by Victor Frankenstein, and Victor knows it.

You can read all about Justine and her sorrows, and the story of the murder from the wretched creature's point of view, on the web:

http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~hamberg/Frankenstein/Chapter6.html
http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~hamberg/Frankenstein/Chapter7.html
http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~hamberg/Frankenstein/Chapter8.html
http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~hamberg/Frankenstein/Chapter16.html

But can we let this sad miscarriage of justice stand? We shall not!

The facts of the murder are as presented, but let us alter some things (ignoring time, space, trademark and copyright).

Choose one:

Case 1) Victor Frankenstein, seeing the dire straits in which the virtuous Justine has fallen, writes to a consulting detective who lives at 221B Baker Street, London. That gentleman takes the case, and soon arrives in Geneva with his friend, Dr. John Watson. Write the story in the style of A. C. Doyle.

Case 2) The investigating officer is Sergeant Josef Freitag of the Geneva police. His favorite phrase is "Nichts aber die Tatsachen, Dame." Dum-da-dum-dum.... Write the story in the style of Raymond Chandler.

Case 3) The crack investigators of CSI: Miami are on vacation in Geneva, and are staying at a hotel next door to the Frankenstein home. They take an interest in the case, and prepare a friend of the court brief for Justine's trial. Write in the style of Danielle Steel.

Case 4) By a weird coincidence, Jessica Fletcher of Murder, She Wrote is Justine's great aunt twice removed by marriage, and has arrived in Geneva at the same time as (sharing a coach with) Victor Frankenstein. Write in the style of Jessica Fletcher.

Case 5) Perry Mason takes the case for the defence. Write in the style of Erle Stanley Gardner.

Case 6) Justine hires Billy Flynn (from the musical Chicago) for five thousand dollars. Billy has never lost a case for a woman. This challenge includes songs. Write as a musical comedy. Happy ending mandatory.

There's going to be a Part II to this challenge, but I'll give that to you on Christmas Day, as a present.

[James D. Macdonald]

Once more into the breech, dear friends: dipping back to Page 105 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710&page=105&pp=25).

Sam and I are sitting on a mostly deserted beach on Lake Michigan a little north of the Drake Hotel in Chicago. The Drake is filled with treasured memories for both of us, and we had dinner at our favorite table there earlier. I need to be with Sam tonight, because it’s one year since, well, everything happened that shouldn’t have happened -- it’s one year since Danny died.

“This is the spot where I met Danny, Sam. In May, six years ago,” I say.

Sam is a good listener who holds eye contact beautifully and is almost always interested in what I have to say, even when I’m being a bore, like now. We’ve been best friends since I was two, maybe even before that. Just about everybody calls us “the cutest couple,” which is a little too saccharine for both of our tastes. But it happens to be true.

“Sam, it was freezing that night Danny and I met, and I had a terrible cold. To make it worse, I had been locked out of our apartment by my old boyfriend Chris, that awful beast.”

“That despicable brute, that creep,” Sam contributes. “I never liked Chris. Can you tell?”

“So this nice guy, Danny, comes jogging by and he asks if I’m all right. I’m coughing and crying and a total mess. And I say, ‘Do I look like I’m all right? Mind your own blacking business. You’re not going to pick me up, if that’s what you’re thinking. Scram!” I snorted a laugh Sam’s way.

“That’s where I got my nickname, ‘Scram.’ Anyway, Danny came back on the second half of his run. He said he could hear me coughing for two miles down the beach. He brought me coffee, Sam. He ran up the beach with a hot cup of coffee for a complete stranger.”

“Yes, but a beautiful stranger, you have to admit.”

I stopped talking, and Sam hugged me and said, “You’ve been through so much. It’s awful and it’s unfair. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make it all better for you.”

I pulled out a folded, wrinkled envelope from the picket of my jeans. “Danny left this for me. In Hawaii. One year ago today.”

“Go ahead, Jennifer. Let it out. I want to hear everything tonight.”

I opened the letter and began to read. I was already starting to choke up.

Dear, wonderful, gorgeous Jennifer…

You’re the writer, not me, but I had to try to put down some of my feelings about your incredible news. I always thought that you couldn’t possibly make me any happier, but I was wrong.

Jen, I’m flying so high right now I can’t believe what I’m feeling. I am, without a doubt, the luckiest man in the world. I married the best woman, and now I’m going to have the best baby with her. How could I not be a pretty good dad, with all that going for me? I will be. I promise.

I love you even more today than I did yesterday, and you wouldn’t believe how much I loved you yesterday.

I love you, and our little “peanut.”…

Danny.

Tears started to roll down my cheeks. “I’m such a big baby,” I said. “I’m pathetic.”

“No, you’re one of the strongest women I know. You’ve lost so much, and you’re still fighting.”

“Yeah, but I’m losing the battle. I’m losing. I’m losing real bad, Sam.”

Then Sam pulled me close and hugged me, and for the moment at least, it was all better -- just like always.

A first page (a prologue in this case). Let's look at it line-by-line to see what the author is doing.

[Kate Nepveu]

Do we have to? I was bored by the fourth paragraph--blatant ask-you-know-Bob and flat as anything, too.

[James D. Macdonald]

Sam and I are sitting on a mostly deserted beach on Lake Michigan a little north of the Drake Hotel in Chicago.

We start with a person in a place. A novel starts with a person in a place with a problem, so we're off to a good start. All we need now is the problem. Present tense. Characters are Sam and "I." First person POV makes narration privileged speech.



The Drake is filled with treasured memories for both of us, and we had dinner at our favorite table there earlier.
This is characterization; apparently these folks have known each other, and lived in the area, a long time. Upscale folks, if they eat out frequently, and have a "favorite table."


I need to be with Sam tonight, because it’s one year since, well, everything happened that shouldn’t have happened -- it’s one year since Danny died.

A third character introduced, Danny, and perhaps the problem. So by the end of Paragraph One we have a person in a place with a problem. That's getting the pieces off the back rank expeditiously. This sentence is the longest and most complex so far. The reader slows down, making Danny stand out. All three characters are in this one sentence. "Died" is in the last-word position, a very important position in a sentence. It's also the last word of the paragraph. It jumps at the reader.


“This is the spot where I met Danny, Sam. In May, six years ago,” I say.
Presumably Sam doesn't already know this, even though Sam and "I" are old friends who frequently dine together not far away? Okay, I can buy that, but let's move fast now. No definite info on the gender of the speaker, but I'm thinking female. Sam knows who Danny is. Danny, whoever he was, isn't the speaker's child.

Sam is a good listener who holds eye contact beautifully and is almost always interested in what I have to say, even when I’m being a bore, like now.

Long sentence, with complexities in its clauses. Answers the reader's question "Why does Sam care?" before it's asked. Reinforcement that the speaker is a female -- "holds eye contact beautifully" isn't a particularly masculine phrase. We may have the author admitting that this is boring -- it's backstory and exposition -- but the exposition has to go somewhere. Flattering the reader, by comparing the reader to the admirable Sam. Are we being a bore when we're talking about a (so-far mysterious) death?

People are interested in love, and people are interested in death (sex and violence -- can't go wrong with those), and so far in two-and-a-half paragraphs we've got both. This isn't really boring.


We’ve been best friends since I was two, maybe even before that.
Clearing the ground for romance with someone else, defining the relationship, and giving backstory and characterization. A good sentence.

Just about everybody calls us “the cutest couple,” which is a little too saccharine for both of our tastes.

Okay, we can be pretty sure that we're talking male/female now. That's an odd phrase to use to describe "best friends," so perhaps they're something more than that? More characterization, and more preempting the reader's objections.

But it happens to be true.

So ... y'all really are a couple? And cute, too? "It happens to be true" implies that some other things either are (or will be) lies. Very simple sentence, easily digested, getting the reader back up to speed. A good paragraph close.

“Sam, it was freezing that night Danny and I met, and I had a terrible cold.

We have to use "Sam" as the first word to show that "I" is talking. Otherwise the reader will have to pause a moment to be sure.

To make it worse, I had been locked out of our apartment by my old boyfriend Chris, that awful beast.”

A bit of confusion. Freezing in May? Well, Chicago -- perhaps. Is "freezing" the thing that's bad, is "had a terrible cold" the thing that's bad, or is meeting Danny the thing that's bad? A bit of as-you-know-Bob dialog here: Sam obviously already knows who Chris is, and (as the speaker's long-time best friend) undoubtedly has a poor opinion of Chris. No need to call Chris a beast -- that's for the reader's benefit.

“That despicable brute, that creep,” Sam contributes. “I never liked Chris. Can you tell?”
A number of short sentences. If Chris isn't important to the story, I'll be disappointed.

“So this nice guy, Danny, comes jogging by and he asks if I’m all right. I’m coughing and crying and a total mess. And I say, ‘Do I look like I’m all right? Mind your own blacking business. You’re not going to pick me up, if that’s what you’re thinking. Scram!” I snorted a laugh Sam’s way.
Telling, but we're telling a story to Sam, so that's okay. And Sam is a patient listener. I'm not certain I like "I snorted a laugh Sam's way."

“That’s where I got my nickname, ‘Scram.’
Sam doesn't already know this? But it's an emotional time, the anniversary of Danny's death. I'll let this pass.


Anyway, Danny came back on the second half of his run. He said he could hear me coughing for two miles down the beach. He brought me coffee, Sam. He ran up the beach with a hot cup of coffee for a complete stranger.”

We're learning more about Danny. I sure hope that coffee had a lid.

“Yes, but a beautiful stranger, you have to admit.”

Definitely a female character, if this isn't a gay romance. I believe we're in the romance genre. Sam's right in his implication: Danny was trying to pick her up.

I stopped talking, and Sam hugged me and said, “You’ve been through so much. It’s awful and it’s unfair.

Woo! Suddenly we drop from present tense to past tense. C'mon, author, you can do better than this. To make up for it, we're promised that there'll be lots of awful and unfair stuff. If we want to see a character angst, we've come to the right place. Here on page one, the reader will know if this is a book he or she will like.

I wish I could wave a magic wand and make it all better for you.”
So we're beyond hope, beyond help. This character is going to suffer for about 300 more pages.


I pulled out a folded, wrinkled envelope from the picket of my jeans.
She went out to dinner in jeans? Okay, I suppose so. She just happens to be carrying the letter? Or she was planning to show it to Sam? Still in past tense.


“Danny left this for me. In Hawaii. One year ago today.”

So, Danny died in Hawaii. Vacation? Our characters are definitely well-to-do. Suicide note?

“Go ahead, Jennifer. Let it out. I want to hear everything tonight.”

I bet I know what the rest of the book is going to be: Jennifer (Hurrah! "I" has a name, and we were right, it's female!) is going to spend the rest of the book Letting It Out. We, the readers, will get to hear Everything.

I opened the letter and began to read. I was already starting to choke up.
Angst, angst, angst!

Dear, wonderful, gorgeous Jennifer…
Well, Danny's laying it on a bit thick. You’re the writer, not me, but I had to try to put down some of my feelings about your incredible news.
Aieee! Our main character is a writer! Well, write what you know, I suppose. I always thought that you couldn’t possibly make me any happier, but I was wrong.
Doesn't sound like a suicide note. We have another reason to follow along, now -- not only what happened to Danny, but what Jen's good news could be. Jen, I’m flying so high right now I can’t believe what I’m feeling. I am, without a doubt, the luckiest man in the world. I married the best woman, and now I’m going to have the best baby with her. How could I not be a pretty good dad, with all that going for me? I will be. I promise.
Ah ha! Jen's pregnant. And, Danny's married to her. Looks like cup-of-coffee-on-the-beach worked pretty well. Fairly simple sentences. A fast read. I love you even more today than I did yesterday, and you wouldn’t believe how much I loved you yesterday.
All is happy and serene! But we know that he'll be dead within the day, so we have a bit of dramatic irony going. The readers know something that the writer of that letter doesn't know. Danny's a bit one-dimensional right now, but maybe he'll improve. I love you, and our little “peanut.”…

Danny.
Argh! Blech! And Jennifer worries about appearing too saccharine?

Tears started to roll down my cheeks. “I’m such a big baby,” I said. “I’m pathetic.”

Speaking of babies ... what happened to the baby? If Jen was just telling Danny that she's pregnant one year ago tonight, she should have a five-month-old around somewhere. "You've been through so much," Sam said. I have a bad feeling about what's going to happen to that "peanut." Another reason for turning the page, to find out what happened to the pregnancy.

“No, you’re one of the strongest women I know. You’ve lost so much, and you’re still fighting.”
Go, Sam! More promises to the reader.

“Yeah, but I’m losing the battle. I’m losing. I’m losing real bad, Sam.”
The dialog is simple, punchy, short. A good contrast to that syrupy letter from Danny. All kinds of conflict promised. A person in a place with a problem? Yeah, we have that. And we're still on page one.


Then Sam pulled me close and hugged me, and for the moment at least, it was all better -- just like always.

Hmmmm.... way ambivalent relationship these two have. But we've finished the first page. Want to turn it? Sure. We have several unresolved questions, with a promise of some three-hanky emotional suffering.

A pity this is a prologue -- most of the readers are going to skip it. But this is okay, they can come back later to get it if they're interested.

I presume that the next page, the start of chapter one, will put us in Hawaii.

[James D. Macdonald]

Inside a publisher's office:

http://www.penguin.co.uk/static/cs/uk/0/aboutus/jobs_workingpeng.html

[aertep]

[QUOTE=James D. Macdonald]All kinds of conflict promised. A person in a place with a problem? Yeah, we have that. And we're still on page one..... Want to turn it? Sure. We have several unresolved questions, with a promise of some three-hanky emotional suffering.[QUOTE]


I guess this is where taste and style come in. I see your point--yeah, this has a person in a place with a problem. It has unresolved questions and a promise of suffering. But the writing style--especially the dialogue--is so stilted, and not to my taste, that I would not turn the page.

It also seems contrived--she's with her best friend, she's known him since she was two (or before), and she's only just now--a year after the events--reading him this letter and telling him this story? I don't buy it.

This is a great exercise. It forces me to look at material and decide why I like it or don't like it--what about it works for me or doesn't. Makes me get specific.

[aghast]

I agree. I think what Uncle Jim did was to present what generally makes a story or plot move along -- people at a placw ith a problem and promise of more heartaches. Teases the audience. But also agree that the writing style is a big factor for me to STOP reading now. I think all the mechanics are there for the story to move along but the delivery is so clunky and stilted that it does not make me want to read it. But it is good to analysze like this because its good for writers to know about the mechanics of storytelling.

[aertep]

Gotcha. The mechanics are there. I can go with it. It's just a matter of taste. These types of books sell like crazy and there's no "good" or "bad" about it. No reason why we shouldn't study what sells.

[aghast]

Yeah, not that I wold want to read or write this kind of books, but its good to see how the "mechanics" work and I am sure books like this sell a lot. So the question is what is good and bad writing? Is it about style or is it about story mechanics? Why does a book like this sell a million copies when something I consider brilliant never comes out of a slush pile?

[aertep]

A friend once recommended a bestseller to me. I read it and was appalled at what I thought was a third-grade level of writing. I told her so. She said, "Maybe that's the level most people read at."

(Note she didn't say, "...the level at which most people read.")

[pepperlandgirl]

I thought Sam was a dog until his second line of dialogue...

Also, I wouldn't turn the page either. Bleh.

[James D. Macdonald]

Guys, if you have plot and story, your writing only has to be workmanlike or better in order to make a sale. Yes, it's great if you can can write beautiful prose. Beautiful prose plus story and plot is golden. Beautiful prose without plot or story ... isn't what the public is looking for.

In this particular instance, most of what we have is dialog. In a first-person novel, narration is also dialog. Dialog is privileged, and reveals character.


Is this a classic? I doubt it will be. But I'll be long dead before history reveals that answer.

I think y'all will agree, regardless of taste, that every sentence here is doing something that's moving the story along.

[SusanR]

Dialog is privileged, and reveals character.

.

Please, would you explain what you mean by "dialog is privileged"? I'm not familiar with this expression, so the meaning is lost on me.

Thank you for this incredible, generous tutorial of yours. I'm keeping up at the end and reading from the beginning at the same time. Hopefully, one day I'll meet myself in the middle! Or something. In any case, sincere thanks.

SusanR

[James D. Macdonald]

By "dialog is privileged" I mean that normal rules of spelling and grammar do not apply there. Dialog reveals character, as well as moving the plot forward.

If a character would say "I ain't got no grits," it would be wrong to 'correct' that to "I have no grits." The character would be changed.

You can do anything in dialog. The only question is "Does it work?"

[Euan H.]

(Note she didn't say, "...the level at which most people read.")

And this proves what? The "rule" that says prepositions can't come at the end of sentences is one up with which we should put.

[aertep]

And this proves what? The "rule" that says prepositions can't come at the end of sentences is one up with which we should put.

I was making a joke.

[James D. Macdonald]

Speaking of jokes:

A Texan is visiting Harvard. He stops a student and asks, "Where's the library at?"

"At Harvard," says the student, "we do not end sentences with prepositions."

"Okay," says the Texan. "Where's the library at, ***hole?"

[James D. Macdonald]

Shall we look at a work that's an undoubted classic? Something seasonal?

Very well:

Chapter 1: Marley's Ghost
Marley was dead: to begin with. There is no doubt whatever about that. The register of his burial was signed by the clergyman, the clerk, the undertaker, and the chief mourner. Scrooge signed it. And Scrooge's name was good upon 'Change, for anything he chose to put his hand to. Old Marley was as dead as a door-nail.

Mind! I don't mean to say that I know, of my own knowledge, what there is particularly dead about a door-nail. I might have been inclined, myself, to regard a coffin-nail as the deadest piece of ironmongery in the trade. But the wisdom of our ancestors is in the simile; and my unhallowed hands shall not disturb it, or the Country's done for. You will therefore permit me to repeat, emphatically, that Marley was as dead as a door-nail.

Scrooge knew he was dead? Of course he did. How could it be otherwise? Scrooge and he were partners for I don't know how many years. Scrooge was his sole executor, his sole administrator, his sole assign, his sole residuary legatee, his sole friend, and sole mourner. And even Scrooge was not so dreadfully cut up by the sad event, but that he was an excellent man of business on the very day of the funeral, and solemnised it with an undoubted bargain.

The mention of Marley's funeral brings me back to the point I started from. There is no doubt that Marley was dead. This must be distinctly understood, or nothing wonderful can come of the story I am going to relate. If we were not perfectly convinced that Hamlet's Father died before the play began, there would be nothing more remarkable in his taking a stroll at night, in an easterly wind, upon his own ramparts, than there would be in any other middle-aged gentleman rashly turning out after dark in a breezy spot -- say Saint Paul's Churchyard for instance -- literally to astonish his son's weak mind.

Scrooge never painted out Old Marley's name. There it stood, years afterwards, above the ware-house door: Scrooge and Marley. The firm was known as Scrooge and Marley. Sometimes people new to the business called Scrooge Scrooge, and sometimes Marley, but he answered to both names. It was all the same to him.


Line by line anon.

[aertep]

Fun stuff from http://rinkworks.com/words/grammar.shtml

"A traditional rule of grammar is that one should never end a sentence with a preposition. Facetiously stated, the rule is, "A preposition is something you should never end a sentence with." Although it is generally advisable to structure sentences so that they do not end in prepositions, as this makes for more elegant writing, many dispute that ending a sentence with a preposition is incorrect English, especially when there is no convenient way to reword the sentence.

Sometimes the "correct" wording is humorously awkward, as in, "Mr. Hunter cursed his memory of the milkman, away with which his wife ran."

Winston Churchill once put a preposition at the end of a sentence and was called to task for it. As the story goes, Churchill replied, "That's the sort of pedantry up with which I will not put."

Another interesting sentence that plays with sentence-end prepositions is, "Aw, Mom, what'd you bring that book I don't like to be read to out of up for?" If the book in question was about Australia, the number of prepositions at the end can be increased from five to eight: "Aw, Mom, what'd you bring that book I don't like to be read to out of about Down Under up for?" "Down Under" is used in this sentence as a single noun rather than as two prepositions, but we needn't let a technicality like that ruin our fun."

[James D. Macdonald]

Chapter 1: Marley's Ghost

We're in a book divided into chapters (unlikely to be a short story; we will use our novel reading protocols here). We are told there is a character named Marley, and Marley has a ghost. "Marl" is clay; a dead person can be referred to as being "turned to clay." This is rather an old-fashioned usage, but (we note) this book was written over 160 years ago. (Sometimes you see this written as "Stave One," as in a staff of music. I have no idea how the first edition put it.)
Marley was dead: to begin with.
We have a short sentence, introducing a character. "To begin with" implies more to come.



There is no doubt whatever about that.

Short, easily understood. Introduces conversational style.


The register of his burial was signed by the clergyman, the clerk, the undertaker, and the chief mourner.

Rather longer, more complex, with a list of people who will attest to the death. Raises the possibility that there may indeed be doubt that Marley is dead.


Scrooge signed it.

A second character introduced, very simply, three words. Follows a long and complex sentence. "It" is the burial register.


And Scrooge's name was good upon 'Change, for anything he chose to put his hand to.

"'Change" is the 19th century Brit for Wall Street; the Exchange. Introduces the theme of money. "Put his hand" is both a term for signing, and a term for attempting. A longer sentence.

Old Marley was as dead as a door-nail.
Back to reinforcing the meaning of the first sentence. Treats Marley disrespectfully. Simple sentence. So ends Paragraph One.


Mind! I don't mean to say that I know, of my own knowledge, what there is particularly dead about a door-nail.

Introduces a third character: "I," the narrator. Implies a fourth character, the reader to whom the narrator is talking directly. Admits that the narrator doesn't know everything, characterization. Sets jocular tone.


I might have been inclined, myself, to regard a coffin-nail as the deadest piece of ironmongery in the trade.

Again, the death-and-burial imagery, and the emphasis on trade -- money. More characterization of the narrator.

But the wisdom of our ancestors is in the simile; and my unhallowed hands shall not disturb it, or the Country's done for.
Bringing in old times -- the wisdom of our ancestors. Complex sentence, with tradition, patriotism, and a depreciation of the narrator all rolled in. We still don't know much more about Marley, who had pride of place in the chapter title and the first sentence of paragraph one.

You will therefore permit me to repeat, emphatically, that Marley was as dead as a door-nail.

Ah, there's Marley! His death is important. We've heard little else for two paragraphs now. "You will permit me" implies a co-equal status between narrator and audience. End of Paragraph Two.


Scrooge knew he was dead?

Conversational tone continues (the reader's question omitted, but clearly present). Scrooge again. Simple construction.


Of course he did. How could it be otherwise?

Two more very simple sentences, more on Scrooge, and more relationship between author and reader.


Scrooge and he were partners for I don't know how many years.

The second time the narrator has confessed ignorance in as many paragraphs. More on business, and now tying Scrooge to Marley.


Scrooge was his sole executor, his sole administrator, his sole assign, his sole residuary legatee, his sole friend, and sole mourner.

A second long list; compare it with the earlier the clergyman, the clerk, the undertaker, and the chief mourner. The chief mourner is now revealed to be the sole mourner, and they are both Scrooge.


And even Scrooge was not so dreadfully cut up by the sad event, but that he was an excellent man of business on the very day of the funeral, and solemnised it with an undoubted bargain.

And Scrooge wasn't all that mournful. He buried his friend as cheaply as possible. Business theme extended, and characterization for Scrooge. End of Paragraph Three.

The mention of Marley's funeral brings me back to the point I started from.
We've never really strayed from Marley's funeral. Discursive style. The author is hammering this point home (particulalry apt when talking of nails).


There is no doubt that Marley was dead.

A simple restatement of the first sentence.


This must be distinctly understood, or nothing wonderful can come of the story I am going to relate.

Things changed a lot with Hemingway, didn't they? Ah, well. We're promised a wonderful story. This is clearly a story that's being spoken, and the point of view of the narrator is clarified. So the relationship of the speaker to the listener is reinforced. The listener is a more skeptical sort of person. Middling complexity on this sentence.


If we were not perfectly convinced that Hamlet's Father died before the play began, there would be nothing more remarkable in his taking a stroll at night, in an easterly wind, upon his own ramparts, than there would be in any other middle-aged gentleman rashly turning out after dark in a breezy spot -- say Saint Paul's Churchyard for instance -- literally to astonish his son's weak mind.

A very long and complex sentence. The Churchyard is a graveyard -- the death imagery is here. The ghost element is introduced (previously only seen in the chapter title). "Astonish" literally means "turn to stone." As in what a Gorgon or basilisk would do. We're now moving away from buisness and trade and off to the supernatural. Assumes the listener is perfectly familiar with the works of Shakespeare. The walking dead introduced. End of Paragraph Four.


Scrooge never painted out Old Marley's name.
"Old Marley" (second reference) is rather disrespectful. The story is moving away from Marley to Scrooge (mentioned first in the sentence and paragraph). More characterization.

There it stood, years afterwards, above the ware-house door: Scrooge and Marley.
So, Scrooge and Marley have a warehouse. And Marley's death was years ago. Theme of times-passed again.

The firm was known as Scrooge and Marley.

Business, and linking Scrooge not just to Marley, but to death, because Marley is known only by the fact of being dead.


Sometimes people new to the business called Scrooge Scrooge, and sometimes Marley, but he answered to both names.
Scrooge=Marley=dead. Business theme mentioned again.


It was all the same to him.

Rather devastating piece of characterization. End of Paragraph Five, and end of the first page.


A slow and discursive beginning, with a promise from the author (who is positioning himself as the reader's close friend) that something "wonderful" will be related. Plot and story are only present in rudimentary, implied forms.

Do we want to turn the page? Nothing much has happened, no problem stated, other than that the reader-character will not believe the narrator-character about the fact of Marley's death. Tons of characterization of Scrooge, a walking dead man.

[James D. Macdonald]

"Preposition" means, literally, placed first: Pre-position. That "rule" about not ending sentences with prepositions comes from the 18th century grammar-masters who hadn't quite figured out that English isn't Latin. Ignore it. It isn't really a rule.

[Ken Schneider]

1. What happens to Scrooge now that Marley is gone?

2. Will Marley's death change anything?

3. Scrooge is cheap, and has Marley's money now.

4. Scrooge would rather do business than attend Marley's funeral, and did that very day.

5. Never painted out Marley's name- no need, and he's still cheap.

6. Scrooge didn't care what name you used to address him. Just pay up.

Yes, I want to turn the page. I've learned little and have been teased with no answers.

So, the first page is a teaser, gives us information but hasn't answered the questions or situation posed? It seems to me. But I'm dumb.

[aertep]

I agree with Ken. I want to turn the page. Another reason to do so is that the narrator's voice is very engaging, and I expect the story to be told well, with personality.

[Ken Schneider]

It's been a while since I handed out an assignment, so here goes: Due on Christmas Day!

I have become so engrossed in this exercise that I've worked on it until my shoulder blades hurt from typing, and I'm finished.

It was great fun writing in the theme I chose, but difficult. It took some research to even capture a minimal amount of of anothers writing style.

But now I know that a brougham is not a type of Cadillac, nor is a landau a type of roof on the same, and that it rattles up the street smartly, only to grate against the curb, as history knows it.

Thanks Jim,
Ken

[Avalon]

Ho ho ho!

Just wanted to say thanks to Uncle Jim. UJ, your explanations (and assignments) are very, very much appreciated -- not to mention enlightening.

And timely! I've also been watching a couple of Scrooges lately, and how interesting to see what details they chose to keep for the screen, and what ones they chose to interpret differently, while keeping the story intact.

[aghast]

Chapter 1: Marley's Ghost

Uncle Jim, I think your analysis is really intersting. The Christmas Carol is such a classic but if it were written today pepple will be jumping on it saying how nothing happened in the first few pages and it needs to be more exciting and lose the charater study stuff. I think people now want something instant. Give them a big conflict or problem in the very beginning or yawn, we wont read it.

[James D. Macdonald]

... and I'm finished.

Put it aside for a week or so, then re-read. I bet you'll find something to tweak.

[Ken Schneider]

Put it aside for a week or so, then re-read. I bet you'll find something to tweak.



No doubt, and the plan.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm not 100% sure that people today would reject A Christmas Carol if it arrived newly-minted.

A good deal of the first page is spent establishing the character of The Narrator as someone you'd enjoy spending some time with. If I were to summarize it in one sentence, it would be: Someone You Trust Promises Wonders.

[Andrew Jameson]

[/indent][/indent]Uncle Jim, I think your analysis is really intersting. The Christmas Carol is such a classic but if it were written today pepple will be jumping on it saying how nothing happened in the first few pages and it needs to be more exciting and lose the charater study stuff. I think people now want something instant. Give them a big conflict or problem in the very beginning or yawn, we wont read it.It does strike me that the technique of Establishing the Narrator (as a character seperate from the action in the book) has fallen out of favor in modern times. But still, look at the first twenty words or so:
Chapter 1: Marley's Ghost

Marley was dead: to begin with. There is no doubt whatever about that.Wow! That promises a lot of interesting things around the corner. Were I critiquing the piece, I might suggest some tightening up of the next few paragraphs, but these opening lines are enough to carry it for quite a while.

[James D. Macdonald]

Marley was dead: to begin with.

Please notice that Dickens ended that sentence with a preposition.


Also notice: When Dickens wants to put a point across, he uses very simple, short sentences.

Marley was dead: to begin with.

There is no doubt whatever about that.

Scrooge signed it.

Scrooge knew he was dead?

Of course he did.

How could it be otherwise?

There is no doubt that Marley was dead.

Scrooge never painted out Old Marley's name.

The firm was known as Scrooge and Marley.

It was all the same to him.



Elsewhere, I've commented that the author needs to cast him/herself as a character, and to cast the reader as a character. Dickens does it explicitly; you can do it implicitly, but I pray you, do it. (Some authors, I'm told, pin a photo of some person to the desk where they write, and imagine telling the story to that person.)

======================

Combining genres:

Marley was dead: to begin with. And when a man's partner is killed, he's supposed to do something about it.

[aertep]

It's difficult to judge what I might anticipate from the text because I know the story so well (though I haven't read it it many years). But from rereading the excerpt, the section that I think would intrigue me most, were I to come to it without previous knowledge, would be this one:

"There is no doubt that Marley was dead. This must be distinctly understood, or nothing wonderful can come of the story I am going to relate. If we were not perfectly convinced that Hamlet's Father died before the play began, there would be nothing more remarkable in his taking a stroll at night, in an easterly wind, upon his own ramparts, than there would be in any other middle-aged gentleman rashly turning out after dark in a breezy spot -- say Saint Paul's Churchyard for instance -- literally to astonish his son's weak mind."

Dickens makes much of this dead Marley guy, then refers to a famous (tragic) ghost story. Not only that, he does it in a humorous way. I can almost hear this narrator's delighted, conspiratorial tone of voice. So I'm about to get a funny, irreverent, scary ghost story! Yes, I'm turning the page.

[aghast]

Its intersting to see the two different styles (Patterson and Dickens), one is workmanlike and hit all the mechanics of story and plot but the narrative and characters are boring and flat; the other is purely character development but the narartive voice is witty and conversational and promises something fun to come. For me personally I would put the first book down and keep reading the second. I know what Uncle Jim said about story and prose but personally if the prose bores me like in Patterson's case I would not read it. Stories are a dime a dozen, it really depends on how the author delivers.

[SusanR]

I'm a relative newbie around here, greetings all. I'm going to jump right in, so duck: INCOMING OPINION!

I would turn Dickins' page for certain. Credit goes to the intimate voice of the Narrator. I feel as if I am curled on a cozy rug before a blazing fire; me, my flannel bunny pajamas, and a cup of hot chocolate keeping company as a winter storm batters the windows and wind whistles in the faraway attic. The Narrator's voice flows warm and thick like syrup, promising a tale both sweet and rich.

I'm in.

Very useful exercise, this. Half of my WIP is written in a (not great) third person omniescent, and I don't have a command of it since I haven't a grip on what I'm trying to do other than get my story told. When I started, I wanted a big, passionate but controlled voice telling plain, spare truths. I get it right intermittently, I think, but haven't the necessary control to measure it out with precision.

I'm going to spend some time thinking about just Who my Narrator might be (a la the Christmas Carol storyteller) and to whom he might be speaking. Maybe even craft a scene (for exercise) in which Narrator and Listener have a chat. Thank you, Jim, for this incredible classroom.

SusanR

[gp101]

======================

Combining genres:
Marley was dead: to begin with. And when a man's partner is killed, he's supposed to do something about it.




A Christmas Carol meets The Maltese Falcon? Ooh, the possibilities. Note how quickly Sam Spade did remove his own partner's name from the door.

My apologies upfront if I guessed wrong on the source of that second line. I'm pretty sure it's a Chandler or Hammett line. UJ, don't leave a brother hangin'.

[aertep]

Marley was dead: to begin with.


Please notice that Dickens ended that sentence with a preposition.


I also notice he began a sentence with "And."

"And even Scrooge was not so dreadfully cut up by the sad event..."


Another so-called "rule," broken very well.

[James D. Macdonald]

UJ, don't leave a brother hangin'.

That is, indeed, from The Maltese Falcon by Dashiell Hammett. Hammett is (IMHO) another great stylist.

On A Christmas Carol though: Lush prose is not the only thing it has going for it. The plot and story are powerhouses: They've survived Mr. Magoo and the Muppets.

Here's the full text to A Christmas Carol, for those who found that they must turn the page: http://www.stormfax.com/1dickens.htm

(Plot: Scrooge is visited by four increasingly scary spirits. Story: A sinner is redeemed. Theme: Charity.)

[James D. Macdonald]

Since I brought up Hammett, here are the first two pages from The Maltese Falcon. Discussion anon.

Spade & Archer
Samuel Spade's jaw was long and bony, his chin a jutting v under the more flexible v of his mouth. His nostrils curved back to make another smaller v. His yellow-grey eyes were horizontal. The v motif was picked up again by thickish brows rising outward from twin creases above a hooked nose, and his pale brown hair grew down -- from high flat temples -- in a point on his forehead. He looked rather pleasantly like a blond satan.

He said to Effie Perine: "Yes, sweetheart?"

She was a lanky sunburned girl whose tan dress of thin woollen stuff clung to her with an effect of dampness. Her eyes were brown and playful in a shiny boyish face. She finished shutting the door behind her, leaned against it, and said: "There's a girl wants to see you. Her name's Wonderly."

"A customer?"

"I guess so. You'll want to see her anyway: she's a knockout."

"Shoo her in, darling," said Spade. "Shoo her in."

Effie Perine opened the door again, following it back into the outer office, standing with a hand on the knob while saying: "Will you come in, Miss Wonderly?"

A voice said, "Thank you," so softly that only the purest articulation made the words intelligible, and a young woman came through the doorway. She advanced slowly with tentative steps, looking at Spade with cobalt-blue eyes that were both shy and probing.

She was tall and pliantly slender, without angularity anywhere. Her body was erect and high-breasted, her legs long, her hands and feet narrow. She wore two shades of blue that had been selected because of her eyes. The hair curling from under her blue hat was darkly red, her full lips more brightly red. White teeth glistened in the crescent her timid smile made.

Spade rose bowing and indicating with a thick-fingered hand the oaken armchair beside his desk. He was quite six feet tall. The steep rounded slope of his shoulders made his body seem almost conical -- no broader than it was thick -- and kept his freshly pressed grey coat from fitting very well.

Miss Wonderly murmurred, "Thank you," softly as before and sat down on the edge of the chair's wooden seat.

Spade sank into his swivel-chair, made a quarter-turn to face her, smiled politely. He smiled without separating his lips. All the v's in his face grew longer.

The tappity-tap-tap and the thin bell and muffled whir of Effie Perine's typewriting came through the closed door. Somewhere in a neighboring office a power-driven machine vibrated dully. On Spade's desk a limp cigarette smouldered in a brass tray filled with the remains of limp cigarettes. Ragged grey flakes of cigarette-ash dotted the yellow top of the desk and the green blotter and the papers that were there. A buff-curtained window, eight or ten inches open, let in from the court a current of air faintly scented with ammonia. The ashes on the desk twitched and crawled in the current.

Miss Wonderly watched the grey flakes twitch and crawl. Her eyes were uneasy. She sat on the very edge of the chair. Her feet were flat on the floor, as if she were about to rise. Her hands in dark gloves clasped a flat dark handbag on her lap.

[Ken Schneider]

That is gang of showing and discription for the first page. Add in three characters introduced, and it's a little much for my readers eye.

I found myself saying, "Enough already, move along."

What I see with my writers eye— which is almost blind.

The discriptions show the scene in vivid detail.

The writer tells us that Spade likes the girls.

He has also introduced in the first page, sex, mystery— and makes us ask, why is this sultry, but nervous gal in his office.

He then changes gears for the hook to make us turn the page with the last two lines.
"Her feet were flat on the floor, as if she were about to rise. Her hands in dark gloves clasped a flat dark handbag on her lap."

Okay, is she leaving because she's uncomfortable with her surroundings, or does she have something in the bag that is making her figit? You have to turn the page.

[gp101]

I really enjoyed the Hammett and Chandler novels I've read, and can see why they are the masters of the gumshoe and mystery genres. But I have to admit being bored by the generous amounts of description (especially with Hammett) as are illustrated in the above passage from MF (the novel, not the expletive). And, yes, I even skipped over a lot of the description to get to the good stuff.

I've read that both men wrote in a period where it was expected that the story include such detailed detail. So I have no doubt that both men, today, would have edited there manuscripts accordingly, without losing much of their stories. I'm also confident they would've enjoyed the liberal acceptance of the four-letter words they were forbidden to use back then.

Having said that, the above-posted first-page of MF would have been a much harder sell as written in today's market. And when an agent and publishing house finally saw past the description to discover the brilliance of the entire novel, it would've been an even tougher sell to today's reader who is accustomed to being thrust into the action by the end of the first paragraph. Maybe a NY Times best-seller, but not top-ten, not by today's standards. Not by today's MTV I-want-it-all-now-not-later, five-minute attention-span generation which I am a member of (of which I am a member??).

[SusanR]

Interesting contrast between Dickens and Hammett. Both written in the style of their times, yet I was bored by the opening of Maltese Falcon and drawn in by Christmas Carol. Maybe it will take another hundred years for Hammett to appear fresh again? Maybe the young people of the roaring 'Twenties, upon reading Dickens' work, sighed and thought, "Not another stodgy, boring morality tale."

SusanR

[aertep]

The heavy description does slow it down. The story coasts during the dialogue, then comes to a halt when the description starts up again.

I have a feeling Jim will soon tell us otherwise, but the time the description seems to contribute most necessarily to the story is in the last two paragraphs, where it's telling us not just what things look like, but also what's going on. In that desultory office, even the ashes are nervous. I think I'll read on to page two, but if things don't pick up pretty soon I might not go on to page three.

[James D. Macdonald]

Spade & Archer

We have a book divided into chapters. Samuel Spade's jaw was long and bony, his chin a jutting v under the more flexible v of his mouth.
Starts with the name of a character in the first two words. Moves on to description, starting with the jaw and moving up.
His nostrils curved back to make another smaller v.
Still moving up. This is apparently in third person omniscent POV -- no idea who the viewpoint character is here. Not at all pleasant looking, as described.
His yellow-grey eyes were horizontal.
Certainly an unusual eye color. Aren't most eyes horizontal, or at least horizontally placed? We continue to pan up.
The v motif was picked up again by thickish brows rising outward from twin creases above a hooked nose, and his pale brown hair grew down -- from high flat temples -- in a point on his forehead.
The longest and most complex sentence in the paragraph. Upward tilted eyebrows and a widow's peak. A satanic appearance.
He looked rather pleasantly like a blond satan.

Which is now made explicit by the author. "Satan" is the last word in the paragraph, a position of power. Satan, traditionally, isn't just the Tempter. He's also the Accuser. End of first paragraph.
He said to Effie Perine: "Yes, sweetheart?"

The complete second paragraph. Introduces a second character, through some dialog. We're in media res, as Spade is responding to something that happened before the start of the first paragraph. Of the two words of dialog, one is sexually charged. We're now in tight third-person limited. POV character is Spade.
She was a lanky sunburned girl whose tan dress of thin woollen stuff clung to her with an effect of dampness.
"Sunburned" is what we now call "suntanned." Spade's POV. He notices how her dress clings.
Her eyes were brown and playful in a shiny boyish face.

The second mention of eyes -- perhaps we have a theme going. A bit of characterization, and again the sexualized description.
She finished shutting the door behind her, leaned against it, and said: "There's a girl wants to see you. Her name's Wonderly."
Dialog. We're told the action that had been in progress just before the story started. Perine had begun shutting the door. Perine's words are slangy, ungrammatical. That's characterization. Third character introduced. End of third paragraph.
"A customer?"
Dialog. Explains the relationship between Spade and Perine: They're in business together in some way. End of fourth paragraph.
"I guess so. You'll want to see her anyway: she's a knockout."
Perine speaking. More sexualized language, revealing and reinforcing Spade's interests: He has an eye for the ladies. End of fifth paragraph.
"Shoo her in, darling," said Spade. "Shoo her in."
Sexualized language in this dialog. Lack of respect for the customer. The entire sixth paragraph is one line, nine words. Two sentences. Emphasis on the "s" sound.
Effie Perine opened the door again, following it back into the outer office, standing with a hand on the knob while saying: "Will you come in, Miss Wonderly?"
The seventh paragraph is a single sentence; action and dialog. The third character is mentioned again, still unseen. "Following," "standing" and "saying" are rather flat and uninteresting words -- the interest is on Miss Wonderly, not on Effie Perine. Still in Spade's POV.
A voice said, "Thank you," so softly that only the purest articulation made the words intelligible, and a young woman came through the doorway.
We hear the voice before we see the person. Characterization -- soft voice, pure articulation.
She advanced slowly with tentative steps, looking at Spade with cobalt-blue eyes that were both shy and probing.
Both tentative and slow. The eye theme. Both shy and probing. End of eighth paragraph.
She was tall and pliantly slender, without angularity anywhere.

Sexualized language in this description. We're looking through Spade's eyes.
Her body was erect and high-breasted, her legs long, her hands and feet narrow.

More sexualized language. She wore two shades of blue that had been selected because of her eyes.

An assumption on the POV character's part. Characterization. "Eyes" in the position of power.
The hair curling from under her blue hat was darkly red, her full lips more brightly red.

"Full lips" are more secondary sexual characteristics. White teeth glistened in the crescent her timid smile made.
Teeth, and implied lips. "Timid" charaterization. End of ninth paragraph.
Spade rose bowing and indicating with a thick-fingered hand the oaken armchair beside his desk.

Thick fingered, in strong contrast to Wonderly's hands. He's being obsequious, rising and bowing, contrasting with his earlier "shoo her in," (not "show her in"). His actions don't suit his thoughts.He was quite six feet tall.
A big man.The steep rounded slope of his shoulders made his body seem almost conical -- no broader than it was thick -- and kept his freshly pressed grey coat from fitting very well.
That's an unusual description. He's deformed. A hunchback? This fits with the satanic description in paragraph one. Omniscent POV, or perhaps Wonderly's POV. End of tenth paragraph.
Miss Wonderly murmurred, "Thank you," softly as before and sat down on the edge of the chair's wooden seat.
Another single-sentence paragraph, and back to Spade's POV. Seating opn the edge of the chair shows tension. End of eleventh paragraph.
Spade sank into his swivel-chair, made a quarter-turn to face her, smiled politely.

Lowering himself, and twisting himself. Heavy on the "s" sounds.
He smiled without separating his lips.

A false smile?
All the v's in his face grew longer.
Reminder of his satanic appearance. Three sentences. That's the twelfth paragraph.
The tappity-tap-tap and the thin bell and muffled whir of Effie Perine's typewriting came through the closed door.

Perine isn't listening at the door. This is a business environment.
Somewhere in a neighboring office a power-driven machine vibrated dully.

Emphasizing the silence in the inner office. Spade is aware of distant sounds because there are no close ones.
On Spade's desk a limp cigarette smouldered in a brass tray filled with the remains of limp cigarettes.

Time passing. "Limp" is an interesting word -- repeated twice. Smouldering is fire, and sexual, imagery.
Ragged grey flakes of cigarette-ash dotted the yellow top of the desk and the green blotter and the papers that were there.

Much color. Ash is when fire burns out. Office environment.
A buff-curtained window, eight or ten inches open, let in from the court a current of air faintly scented with ammonia.

The viewpoint character doesn't much care how far the window is open. Complex syntax to put the word "ammonia" in the position of power. That's the smell of urine -- not a very good neighborhood. Also, fire and ash and stink, reinforces the satanic imagery.
The ashes on the desk twitched and crawled in the current.
Like living things. Burned out, but still living. Uneasy motion. The motion of the ash emphasizes that the two people aren't moving. Various senses -- sight, sound, and smell -- are used in this paragraph. End of thirteenth paragraph.
Miss Wonderly watched the grey flakes twitch and crawl.

Emphasizing the twitchiness. Spade, the viewpoint, is watching Wonderly.
Her eyes were uneasy.

Spade's conclusions. Eyes again. Eyes are very important, it seems. The windows to the soul. Spade is a private eye.
She sat on the very edge of the chair.

Second mention. Unease and tension.
Her feet were flat on the floor, as if she were about to rise.

Description. Coiled-spring tension.Her hands in dark gloves clasped a flat dark handbag on her lap.

"Dark" rather than a color. Grasping is a motionless motion; it reinforces the tension imagery. A collection of short, choppy sentences. Restless, like twitching cigarette ash. End of the fourteenth paragraph.

Turn the page? Yes/no.

[HConn]

Turn the page? Yes/no.

Hell, yes.

I loved this book the first time I read it. I like it even more now that I've read your analysis.

[SusanR]

I can't get past the (now) cliched tough-guy private eye thing. The passage made me want to roll my eyes. "Not this old schtick!"

But your analysis made it more interesting. I'm not used to reading like a writer, and have never--before reading your examples in this thead--ever actually sat down and analyzed a piece of prose. So I'm on a steep learning curve, here...:)

SusanR

[scribbler1382]

Somewhere in a neighboring office a power-driven machine vibrated dully.




Emphasizing the silence in the inner office. Spade is aware of distant sounds because there are no close ones.



I loved this. What a perfect way to show not tell. Most people would have just said "The room was quiet."

[James D. Macdonald]

Mentions of eyes:

His yellow-grey eyes were horizontal.

Her eyes were brown and playful in a shiny boyish face.

She advanced slowly with tentative steps, looking at Spade with cobalt-blue eyes that were both shy and probing.

She wore two shades of blue that had been selected because of her eyes.

Her eyes were uneasy.

Colors mentioned:

yellow-grey
pale brown
blond
tan
brown
cobalt-blue
two shades of blue
blue
darkly red
brightly red
white
grey
brass
grey
yellow
green
buff
grey

[SusanR]

Sights and sounds. A bit of body awareness in the tense clutch of the handbag and looking like she was going to rise. No smells, though. It's funny, the great "Noses" of the perfume and wine industries are male, but I think (although I'm not certain) on average, women's olfactory senses are keener. Something primal about sniffing out one's own child from the herd.

It's really amazing to me how much detail I just suck in unnoticed when I read. You may not make a writer out of me, but I'll be a better reader!

SusanR

[aertep]

Uncle Jim, at first I found this dull with too much description, but I'm with SusanR, your analysis made it more interesting. I had wondered about the ammonia smell but passed over it, and now I know from you what it means. This tells me I've probably passed over a lot as a reader, and likely missed some good detail out of being too lazy to research something that might have enhanced my experience of a story.

Unfortunately, it's an automatic reaction in me. I'm going to have to watch for it and re-learn to read.

[Ken Schneider]

This information helps me to see how successful writers write. I have always read with the readers eye, not the writers.

I'm sure that is what Jim is trying to show us. A lot of information can be gleaned from the looking at one page from the writers point of view. What is he thinking, reading between the lines. I like it.

I found the same thing with the writing excercise Jim handed out last week.

I've finished mine, but am thinking of writing stories in all of the catagories, because its just fun.

[James D. Macdonald]

This is an art. You, as the artist, need to make sure every word is doing its duty.

The readers may not notice -- consciously -- what you've done,but they will notice. That's what makes the difference.

[James D. Macdonald]

Shall we try another book? A more recent book?

Here are the first two pages of a novel published in 2005:In 1972 I was sixteen – young, my father said, to be traveling with him on his diplomatic missions. He preferred to know that I was sitting attentively in class at the International School of Amsterdam; in those days his foundation was based in Amsterdam, and it had been my home for so long that I had nearly forgotten our early life in the United States. It seems peculiar to me now that I should have been so obedient well into my teens, while the rest of my generation was experimenting with drugs and protesting the imperialist war in Vietnam, but I had been raised in a world so sheltered that it makes my adult life in academia look positively adventurous. To begin with, I was motherless, and the care that my father took of me had been deepened by a double sense of responsibility, so that he protected me more completely than he might have otherwise. My mother had died when I was a baby, before my father founded the Center for Peace and Democracy. My father never spoke of her and turned quietly away if I asked questions; I understood very young that this was a topic too painful for him to discuss. Instead, he took excellent care of me himself and provided me with a series of governesses and housekeepers – money was not an object with him where my upbringing was concerned, although we lived simply enough from day to day.

The latest of these housekeepers was Mrs. Clay, who took care of our narrow seventeenth-century town house on the Raamsgracht, a canal in the heart of the old city. Mrs. Clay let me in after school every day and was a surrogate parent when my father traveled, which was often. She was English, older than my mother would have been, skilled with a feather duster and clumsy with teenagers; sometimes, looking at her too-compassionate, long-toothed face over the dining table, I felt she must be thinking of my mother and I hated her for it. When my father was away, the handsome house echoed. No one could help me with my algebra, no one admired my new coat or told me to come here and give him a hug, or expressed shock over how tall I had grown. When my father returned from some name on the European map that hung on the wall in our dining room, he smelled like other times and places, spicy and tired. We took our vacations in Paris or Rome, diligently studying the landmarks my father thought I should see, but longed for those other places he disappeared to, those strange old places I had never known.

While he was gone, I went back and forth to school, dropping my books on the polished hall table with a bang. Neither Mrs. Clay nor my father let me go out in the evenings, except to the occasional carefully approved movie with carefully approved friends, and – to my retrospective astonishment – I never flouted these rules. I preferred solitude anyway; it was a medium in which I had been raised, in which I swam comfortably. I excelled at my studies but not in my social life. Girls my age terrified me, especially the tough-talking, chain-smoking sophisticates of our diplomatic circle – around them I always felt that my dress was too long, or too short, or that I should have been wearing something else entirely. Boys mystified me, although I dreamed vaguely of men. In fact, I was happiest alone in my father’s library, a large, fine room on the first floor of our house.

My father’s library had probably once been a sitting room, but he sat down only to read, and he considered a large library more important than a large living room. He had long since given me free run of his collection. During his absences, I spent hours doing my homework at the mahogany desk or browsing the shelves that lined every wall. I understood later that my father had either half forgotten what was on one of the top shelves or – more likely – assumed I would never be able to reach it; late one night I took down not only a translation of the Kama Sutra but also a much older volume and an envelope of yellowing papers.

I can’t say even now what made me pull them down. But the image I saw at the center of the book, the smell of age that rose from it, and my discovery that the papers were personal letters all caught my attention

Turn the page? Yes/no.

[fallenangelwriter]

yes, but hesitantly. I'm hoping this goes somewhere interesting quickly.

[SusanR]

Ok, I'm gonna see how far I can get, thinking about this as a writer.




In 1972 I was sixteen – young, my father said, to be traveling with him on his diplomatic missions.


Ok, a lot of information in 18 words. It's written in first person, and "he" is telling a tale from sometime in his past. We learn something about his father (a diplomat) and their relationship.

He preferred to know that I was sitting attentively in class at the Interantional School of Amsterdam; in those days his foundation was based in Amsterdam, and it had been my home for so long that I had nearly forgotten our early life in the United States.

More about their relationship, though very subtle. "He preferred to know...." More history, very easily delivered.


It seems particular to me now that I should have been so obedient well into my teens, while the rest of my generation was experimenting with druges and protesting the imperialist war in Vietnam, but I had been reaised in a world so sheltered that it makes my adult life in academia look positively adventurous.

The careful use of language does suggest an academic is writing; words like 'obedient', 'positively adventurous' etc. There's a tone of ironic distance, a suggestion that the character holds a gently ironic attitude.



To begin with, I was motherless, and the care that my father took of me had been deepened by a double sense of responsibility, so that he protected me more completely than he might have otherwise. My mother had died when I was a baby, before my father founded the Center for Peace and Democracy. My father never spoke of her and turned quietly away if I asked questions; I understood very young that this was a topic too painful for him to discuss. Instead, he took excellent care of me himself and provided me with a series of governesses and housekeepers – money was not an object wtih him where my upbringing was concerned, although we lived simply enough from day to day.

More gentle history, not too heavy-handed for backstory. More about the relationship with father. Contrast between the breaking boundaries of the times he's remembering, and the fact that his father's foundation was called the Center for Peace and Democracy. There may be conflict brewing there. The author has called my attention to the contrast between the genteel upbringing of the narrator and the tensions between the generations at large.



The latest of these housekeepers was Mrs. Clay, who took care of our narrow seventeenth-century town house on the Raamsgracht, a canal in the heart of the old city. Mrs. Clay let me in after school every day and was a surrogate parent when my father traveled, which was often. She was English, older than my mother would have been, skilled with a feather duster and clumsy with teenagers; sometimes, looking at her too-compasionate, long-toothed face over the dining table, I felt she must be thinking of my mother and I hated her for it. When my father was away, the handsome house echoed. No one could help me with my algebra, no one admired my new coat or told me to come here and give him a hug, or expressed shock over how tall I had grown.

A little more emotion is creeping into the tale now. I'm reminded of the pace of a therapy session. As the patient goes on (in the sympathetic silence), his memories become more alive and invested with emotion.

When my father returned from some name on the European map that hung on the wall in our dining room, he smelled like other times and places, spicy and tired.

"Smelled like other times and places, spicy and tired." This is the most vivid, evocative language yet.



We took our vacations in Paris or Rome, diligently studying the landmarks my father thought I should see, but longed for those other places he disappeared to, those strange old places I had never known.

While he was gone, I went back and forth to school, dropping my books on the polished hall table with a bang. Neither Mrs. Clay nor my father let me go out in the evenings, except to the occassional carefully approved movie with carefully approved friends, and – to my retrospective astonishment – I never flouted these rules.

Again, he expresses surprise that he was so obedient as a youth. This is now emphasized. Why? I want to know...did he have his rebellion later, as a young adult? Does he feel stifled in his life, and is this the prelude to a running-away-from-home tale?


I preferred solitude anyway; it was a medium in which I had been raised, in which I swam comfortably. I excelled at my studies but not in my social life. Girls my age terrified me, especially the tough-talking, chain-smoking sophisticates of our diplomatic circle – around them I always felt that my dress was too long, or too short, or that I should have been wearing something else entirely. Boys mystified me, although I dreamed vaguely of men. In fact, I was happiest alone in my father’s library, a large, fine room on the first floor of our house.

Aha! The gender of the narrator revealed. I realize that up until this paragraph, I assumed the narrator was male, but the overprotectiveness of father and Mrs. Clay is now a little clearer.

My father’s library had probably once been a sitting room, but he sat down only to read, and he considered a large library more important than a large living room. He had long since given me free run of his collection. During his absences, I spent hours doing my homework at the mahogany desk or browsing the shelves that lined every wall. I understood later that my father had either half forgotten what was on one of the top shelves or – more likely – assumed I would never be able to reach it; late one night I took down not only a translation of the Kama Sutra but also a much older volume and an envelope of yellowing papers.

Okay, good. Now we're getting into some hot water, here. She's afraid of her sexual awakening, sheltered and protected, but in the confines her father's library, she manages to find not only the Kama Sutra, but some mysterious, yellowing papers.

I can’t say even now what made me pull them down. But the image I saw at the center of the book, the smell of age that rose from it, and my discovery that the papers were personal letters all caught my attention



Turn the page? Yes/no.


Yes, surely. I want to know what those papers were, and what effect they had on this young, sheltered, impressionable adolescent girl.

*whew*

SusanR

[MadScientistMatt]

yes, but hesitantly. I'm hoping this goes somewhere interesting quickly.

I agree - if it had ended anywhere before finding the secret stash of papers, I would have put it down. The secret papers make it moderately interesting, but there had better be something really good in there. Other than that, there seems to be hardly any conflict except the narrator's vague unease around her peers.

[Avalon]

I realize that up until this paragraph, I assumed the narrator was male, but the overprotectiveness of father and Mrs. Clay is now a little clearer.



Interesting! I was just sitting here asking myself why I was so sure by line 3 that the narrator was female.

[HConn]

Turn the page? Yes/no.

Yep, without hesitation. I expect the protagonist to be thrown out of her safe world very soon, especially considering the introduction of the papers.

I look forward to find out the title of this book.

edit: People need more patience. Sheesh.

[Ken Schneider]

Yep, without hesitation. patience.


I have to agree. And, I thought the speaker was a male until down the page.


I like to get to know my characters in a book I read. I find, and maybe this is why we are allowed to go so deep into her head at this point, that later we will be able to predict and or could be fooled by what her reaction will be to a certain situation. What I've read made me feel good, comfortable, and at ease. I want to turn the page and learn more about her.

This may be the direction the author is taking this introduction. I don't know, but would like to find out.

This isn't about a Knights Templar, is it Jim?

[scribbler1382]

No.

[HConn]

It's funny. I pictured the narrator as a girl from the word "sixteen."

[ted_curtis]

I'm enjoying reading these openings and picking them apart.

Difficult choice. I think I would turn the page if it were a thick book, but not if it were a short one. There's complex language and long backstory, but the forgotten papers are intriging.

[Sharon Mock]

I'd turn the page, certainly. The story starts slowly, and I appear to be in for a discursive time of it. But that book and envelope -- nestled next to the Kama Sutra! -- offers a promise of something more interesting lying just ahead.

Of course, having recognized the book (despite never having read a word of it -- it's a Stupid Writer Trick of mine, knowing things about books I've never read), the promise that book and envelope make becomes all the greater.

And I didn't picture the character as a girl until it was made clear, either. Still, I found out soon enough that I didn't feel too disoriented when I learned I was wrong.

I preferred solitude anyway; it was a medium in which I had been raised, in which I swam comfortably. I excelled at my studies but not in my social life. Girls my age terrified me, especially the tough-talking, chain-smoking sophisticates of our diplomatic circle – around them I always felt that my dress was too long, or too short, or that I should have been wearing something else entirely. Boys mystified me, although I dreamed vaguely of men. In fact, I was happiest alone in my father’s library, a large, fine room on the first floor of our house.

Ah, I recognize this impulse. Writing about a loner because it's easier (on so many levels) than writing about somebody with a social network. I was just discussing this with my husband over lunch today, in fact. It's a form of White Room Syndrome, where the story starts in a featureless white room because the author hasn't figured out the setting yet. Glad to see it's not a barrier to publication. :D

[jules]

And I didn't picture the character as a girl until it was made clear, either. Still, I found out soon enough that I didn't feel too disoriented when I learned I was wrong.

It did disorient me. My reaction was basically: "Why would he be wearing a dress...? Oh!" Then I quickly reread the previous paragraphs to see if there was anything else I needed to reinterpret in light of that revelation.

I don't like having to reread stuff. :)

Writing about a loner because it's easier (on so many levels) than writing about somebody with a social network.

And also because many writers are loners -- spending a lot of time on a solitary activity can either be a cause or a symptom of that -- and writing about somebody who has similarities to yourself is much easier than writing somebody totally different.

[James D. Macdonald]

Would it have helped in figuring out the gender of the first person narrator to know that the author is female?

(This is, incidentally, a first novel, published by a major house, 656 pages in trade cloth binding.)

[marksiegal]

Knowing the author was female is why I assumed the narrator was female, when I picked this up at the bookstore. I didn't get past the first paragraph at the time, because it didn't grab me enough for such a thick book (despite what else I knew about it). But reading the first two pages, yeah, I'd flip to page three.

[SusanR]

I might have been more inclined to think of the narrator as female if I knew the author was female.

Will you share the title soon? I'd like to add this one to my reading list. Thank you!

SusanR

[HConn]

Writing about a loner because it's easier (on so many levels) than writing about somebody with a social network. I was just discussing this with my husband over lunch today, in fact. It's a form of White Room Syndrome, where the story starts in a featureless white room because the author hasn't figured out the setting yet.

When you see a person dressed all in black, do you assume it's because they're incapable of matching colorful clothing or because they like black?

Frankly, declaring that a writer has made perfectly legitimate creative choices because they're "easier" in some way strikes me as smarmy and misguided.

[pepperlandgirl]

Would it have helped in figuring out the gender of the first person narrator to know that the author is female?

(This is, incidentally, a first novel, published by a major house, 656 pages in trade cloth binding.)

No, I never assume the narrator is related to the author in any way, unless I have a very good reason to.

[James D. Macdonald]

The novel is The Historian by Elizabeth Kostova, published by Little, Brown.

One thing I liked about the opening was the way it spiraled in: From the world, to the city of Amsterdam, to the house, to the library, to the bookshelf, to the book.

Perhaps we'll look at it sentence by sentence anon. (Or perhaps in a couple of months, like the last bunch.)

[Ken Schneider]

Would it have helped in figuring out the gender of the first person narrator to know that the author is female?

No. I will read the passage again for an indication of the gender, but didn't pick up on anything the first time.

Could it be possible that men would automatically think that it is a male, and female vise-versa?

[aghast]

I dont know what it is but I also thought the mc was male, probably its the narative tone? Just read male to me.

[aertep]

I'm currently reading the book.

Regarding the narrator's gender, I also assumed it was female from the beginning. I don't know if I made this assumption because the author is female or because I'm female. Just now I went back to look at the opening pages. I don't see any indication of the narrator's gender until "my dress was too long." If you read with the assumption that the narrator is male, it works until then. If you read with the assumption that the narrator is female, it also works.

Obviously, I turned the page. I considered not turning it, but I had spent the money! So I continued and eventually got hooked enough that unless she does something heinous I'm sure I'll finish it.

[HConn]

I'm a guy and I thought it was a female character.

[Ken Schneider]

I agree, Petrea.

I like to give a book the chance to show me why it was published. Today, a book being published by a noted publisher has to have some merit. Being a writer, we need to find the reasons why the book was published, and not why we like or don't like the plot, and genre. IMHO.

I recently finished, Extremly loud and incredibly close, by Jonathan Safran Foer.

What I've just read in The Historian,reminded me of the lonely-boy angle in Foer's novel, which is an excellent read.

Ken

[aertep]

The reason I kept reading "The Historian" when the first pages (and even the first chapter) didn't grab me was more than just the money I'd spent (although that's part of it). After all I'd heard and read, much of it on this website, about keeping a first novel short, I wanted to find out what intrigued Little, Brown & Co. so much about it to publish a 642-page novel by a first-time novelist.

I'm on page 582, and I'm reading like a writer!

Petrea

[scribbler1382]

I looked at it in the bookstore when it first came out. I put it back on the shelf when after six pages of what seemed to me like nothing but rambling "telling", I hit the line "...this is where my story begins...". And that was where my reading stopped.

[Sharon Mock]

When you see a person dressed all in black, do you assume it's because they're incapable of matching colorful clothing or because they like black?

Frankly, declaring that a writer has made perfectly legitimate creative choices because they're "easier" in some way strikes me as smarmy and misguided.

When I see a person dressed all in black, I assume it's my husband or one of my friends. :D

Hmm. Keep in mind I figured out what book it was, so I knew it was a first published novel by a new, unestablished writer. Furthermore, I knew some of the choices she'd made (female protagonist, an obsession with history and books) and knew how similar they were to choices I'd made in one of my WIPs.

Just to mix metaphors, I know why I reached for that same outfit. It was at the front of my closet, it was comfortable, and I knew how to put it on. At the time, it was probably the best choice I had. Nevertheless, if I'm going to grow as a writer and an individual I'd better expand my literary wardrobe. One way of doing this is to recognize my own techniques and choices where they occur in other people's writing.

Perhaps part of the problem is that I'd just recently re-read the Turkey City Lexicon, (http://www.sfwa.org/writing/turkeycity.html) and all the talk of Grubby Apartment Stories and White Room Syndrome -- combined with the process of revision -- has left me sensitive to the literary equivalent of dressing all in black.

(Sorry for the hijack, Uncle Jim!)

[aertep]

By the way, "The Historian" is told in the first person, but there are several "first persons" telling the story, and most of them are not female.

[HConn]

Just to mix metaphors, I know why I reached for that same outfit. It was at the front of my closet, it was comfortable, and I knew how to put it on. At the time, it was probably the best choice I had. Nevertheless, if I'm going to grow as a writer and an individual I'd better expand my literary wardrobe. One way of doing this is to recognize my own techniques and choices where they occur in other people's writing.

Sure, it's the same technique, but it's not cool to say she's made the choice for the same reason you might have. All I know about the book is that it's from a new author, involves a certain iconic horror character, and has been slammed by people whose opinion I trust. I'm not going to be reading it.

But there might be excellent story reasons for creating a loner who's spent her whole life with her nose in books. Barring an explicit admission by the author that creating friends for the protagonist was too much work, it isn't fair to hand that label on her.

And how is it harder to have a social network for the protagonist? I think that makes the book easier.

[Sharon Mock]

Sure, it's the same technique, but it's not cool to say she's made the choice for the same reason you might have. All I know about the book is that it's from a new author, involves a certain iconic horror character, and has been slammed by people whose opinion I trust. I'm not going to be reading it.
You're right. It was presumptuous of me, and less than fair.

But there might be excellent story reasons for creating a loner who's spent her whole life with her nose in books. Barring an explicit admission by the author that creating friends for the protagonist was too much work, it isn't fair to hand that label on her.
I had not intended to place a moral judgment on the author. (Bad writer! No fountain pen!) I should have said that I recognized this particular gambit (to tie back to Logical Chess), and when I tried it, it got me into trouble.

But on the other hand, my own excellent story reasons have never saved me from the problems I've created for myself.

And how is it harder to have a social network for the protagonist? I think that makes the book easier.
It means creating and juggling more characters. It means working social interaction into the storyline. It means you don't have a ready-made crucible at your disposal, built out of your protagonist's isolation. It means having to see your protagonist and his world more clearly from the outset, instead of starting in an empty white room and going from there.

Of course, I paid for that illusory ease by ending up with a character who wasn't properly bound to her world. Like most short-cuts, it seemed "right" at the time but turned out to be more work in the long run. I've done what I can to remedy things, but I've devised such excellent reasons for my character being a loner and outsider that removing the "white room syndrome" would require a more or less entire rewrite. And frankly, that would be too much effort for not enough reward. I've made the choice to work with what I've got and try to make wiser story decisions in the future.

[James D. Macdonald]

Myself, I find that adding characters helps. That way the protagonist doesn't have to talk to himself.

[HConn]

It means creating and juggling more characters. It means working social interaction into the storyline. It means you don't have a ready-made crucible at your disposal, built out of your protagonist's isolation. It means having to see your protagonist and his world more clearly from the outset, instead of starting in an empty white room and going from there.

A social network is a resource for the writer and the protagonist. Having additional characters simplifies the process of creating a story--you have more people who can help the character, who can clash with them, betray them, sleep with their fiance or just get killed off by the mysterious Count.

If a writer wants to explore the effects of a protagonist's problem on a social group, the network is crucial. If a writer wants to have a character who must face their problem (or strange environment, or whatever) while having no one else to rely on, forgoing the network is crucial.

Maybe it's just me, but I've been writing micro-budget horror scripts for my buddy to produce. I *like* adding characters--it increases the opportunities for conflict, allows me to switch between several conflicts at once, and gives me more people for the monster to kill.

Unfortunately, each new added character is an additional burden--more actors, costumes, scheduling headaches, and so on. It's kinda annoying. I like having as many characters as a story needs. Writing about loners is *work!*

[Ken Schneider]

Myself, I find that adding characters helps. That way the protagonist doesn't have to talk to himself.

Jim, Are you talking about characters to help in a scene, and then dropped?

I assume this is what you mean.

I remember you saying to add characters somewhere else and I tried it. The character ended up being really interesting and forced himself into the rest of the book, to date.

[James D. Macdonald]

You don't want to use Whack-a-Mole characters. Guys who pop up in only one scene, then are never heard from again, unless a) It's really necessary, and b) It's realistic.

Your main character may only see and speak to a bus driver once, during a scene on a bus. In that case, don't give the bus driver a name or description, lest the readers keep waiting for him to show up again.

Use as many characters as you need, but no more. And no fewer. (Hey, this is an art, not a science.)

Yes, it's common for characters who appear in one scene to want to be in the rest of the book. Let them. If they don't add to the finished work you can remove them later.

When you're looking for characters, ask yourself: a) Do I already have a character who can fulfill this function, and b) What else can this character do?

Cherish your minor characters. They'll save you.

[Ken Schneider]

Got it,thank you, Jim.


Hey gang, only four more days until Christmas, and the deadline for Uncle Jim's writing excercise.

The last few weeks have been fun and informative with the information and excercises Jim has unselfishly given.

Thank you from me Jim. A joyous year end, and celebration of Christs' birth to you and your family.

I have hope that you can continue to have patience with me, and know that I appreciate you mentoring.

Ken Schneider.

[AnnaWhite]

I finished Uncle Jim's writing exercise! Now what happens?

Ooooh, and Merry Christmas everyone :Sun:

[Ken Schneider]

We'll find out after midnight, or in the morning.

[James D. Macdonald]

Good morning, all!

I hope everyone is having a happy Christmas.

The next part of your writing assignment is this:

While you now have a story with action, adventure, excitment (and a beginning, a middle, and an end), your story has one major problem: It's using a trademarked or copyrighted character. (Some of Sherlock Holmes is public domain now ... but not all, and the parts that come from stage plays and movies are very much not public domain.)

So ... the next part of your task is to file off the serial numbers. Take those trademarked/copyrighted characters and make them into original characters. Remove any identifying information. (You can't just turn CSI: Miami into CSI: Puerto Rico. Go right down to the roots and imagine what crime scene investigation would be like if Sir Bernard Spilsbury had been Swiss. Take out other people's characters and put your own characters in their places.

Part II of this task is to make any "say what?" moments your reader might have due to problems with time-and-space seem plausible, at least for the time the reader has the story in front of him/her. This may mean moving Frankenstein (who is entirely in public domain, at least the book version -- I trust no one used the movie monster?) forward in time and across the sea to Civil War-era New York, or 21st century Geneva. Or it may involve
making Hermes Trismegistus the father of forensic detection, so that 18th c. Switzerland had scholars who could read the evidence in spatter marks by means both occult and mysterious.

New deadline for the rewritten story: 12th Night (January 5th). Oh, and read Twelfth Night (http://www.bibliomania.com/0/6/3/1077/frameset.html) by Wm. Shakespeare (or watch it on video (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009VNBKG/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/)).

[HConn]

I hope this hasn't been noted in another thread (I can't keep up with the others and don't even try), but Harlequin has switched to using word processor word counts over the old methods.

More here. (http://www.booksquare.com/archives/2005/12/21/1706/)

[James D. Macdonald]

From CNN:
Turkey drops case against author (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/12/29/turkey.pamuk.ap/index.html)


ANKARA, Turkey (AP) -- Turkish prosecutors decided not to file charges against novelist Orhan Pamuk for allegedly insulting Turkey's armed forces, but the writer still faces charges that he insulted "Turkishness," said lawyers who asked for his trial.

Nationalist lawyers had petitioned prosecutors to file criminal charges against Pamuk for reportedly telling a German newspaper, Die Welt, in October this year that the military threatened and prevented democratization in Turkey.

European officials have criticized Turkey for putting Pamuk on trial on the "insulting Turkishness" charge and have called on the country to do more to protect freedom of expression. That trial was halted by the judge the day it began Dec. 16 and awaits a Justice Ministry ruling on whether it can continue.

Prosecutors on Thursday decided there were no grounds to try Pamuk for insulting the military, said nationalist lawyer Kemal Kerincsiz, who had petitioned the prosecutors asking for Pamuk's trial.

Kerincsiz said he would appeal the decision on Friday.

"It is of course not possible for the prosecutors to make a sound decision under so much pressure," said Kerincsiz. "We've come to the point where we're no longer able to protect our national values. Where will it all end?"

Kerincsiz said the army was portrayed as the enemy of democracy, which he called a "grave insult."



The story continues at the link.

[Ken Schneider]

Good morning, all!

I hope everyone is having a happy Christmas.

The next part of your writing assignment is this:

While you now have a story with action, adventure, excitment (and a beginning, a middle, and an end), your story has one major problem: It's using a trademarked or copyrighted character. (Some of Sherlock Holmes is public domain now ... but not all, and the parts that come from stage plays and movies are very much not public domain.)

So ... the next part of your task is to file off the serial numbers. Take those trademarked/copyrighted characters and make them into original characters

This is more of a challenge than I thought. Having to use someone elses writing style was easy compared to making the story sensible without reference. i.e. the word Frankenstein, automatically takes out all doubt as to what the story may be about. It is also easier to write ones own story/novel than to do this excercise.

Then I thought, every character has been created by the writer, whomever they may be.

For instance,

There are only so many senarios that one can use.

Secret agent/ 007
Detective/ P.I. Mike Hammer
Dectective/Granny Mrs. Marple

All of these characters have to do the same thing, solve a case.

Why do we think they are different?

I've just realized that it is not the plot of the story so much as the creation and depth of the character that draws people to one story or the other.

Some like Bond, some don't. Some like Agatha Christy, some don't

Still, they all solve mysteries, or problems.

So, why can't I use the tried and true senario when writing my own novels, and make the characters irresistable?

Just some thoughts I've tossed around while trying to rewrite the excercise.

It has helped me see several things that I hadn't before. I can see why you offered it, Jim. Thanks.

[James D. Macdonald]

Lest I was unclear:

Leave Frankenstein in. Frankenstein is completely public domain, and this is unabashedly a derivative work.

Jessica Fletcher, however, is not public domain. While the busy-body amateur detective is not copyrighted, the name, and the specifics (a female mystery writer) is both under copyright and most likely trademarked.

The goal here is to remake the story so that while everyone will know (and part of the enjoyment will be) that this is a Frankenstein story -- no one should read it and say, "Oh, that's Jessica Fletcher from Murder, She Wrote."

Yes, it's tough, but it's not impossible. (The impossible we'll try a little later.)

[blacbird]

(The impossible we'll try a little later.)

Already done. I do it all the time. I try to get things published.

caw.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

I note that today, January 1, marks the first day of the submissions period for applications (http://www.sff.net/paradise/apply.htm) to Viable Paradise 2006.

Uncle Jim, I'm thinking of submitting a portion of a novel-in-revision. Would you speak to what sort of outline you'd like to see accompany the first 10,000 words of novel?

[James D. Macdonald]

Would you speak to what sort of outline you'd like to see accompany the first 10,000 words of novel?

Make it brief.

A present-tense narration.

But brief.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Make it brief.

A present-tense narration.

But brief.Brief. Roger that. Also, are we talking chapter-by-chapter outline ("Chapter One: [A couple sentences that sum up the plot elements of chapter one] Chapter Two: [Likewise]) or something less step-by-step?

Many many thanks!

[James D. Macdonald]

If you're more comfortable doing chapter-by-chapter that's perfectly okay, but most times when I've written synopses or outlines they've been in the form of a narrative, ten pages or less.

Think about how you'd tell a friend all about a movie you'd seen last night and Really Liked.

[HConn]

Check out: this blog. (http://misssnark.blogspot.com/)

There are lots of synopses there; you can see what works and what doesn't.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Thanks. The reason I asked was, VP's application guidelines actually say "outline," not "synopsis," and I had not thus far been led to consider the two terms interchangeable. When I hear "outline" I think of the chapter-by-chapter format; when I hear "synopsis" I think of a summary with more of a narrative flow, like Uncle Jim's "telling your friend about a movie" example.

If I understand my terminology and Uncle Jim's answer correctly, it sounds like for VP's purposes either format--outline or synopsis--will do as long as the result is quick and to-the-point.

(HConn: thanks for the link!)

[maestrowork]

For some editors and agents, "outline" and "synopsis" are interchangeable and they mean "narrative summary." So the best thing to do is ask. Don't assume. Ask them precisely what they mean by "outline" -- is it a summary or a chapter-by-chapter outline.

[batgirl]

I note that today, January 1, marks the first day of the submissions period for applications (http://www.sff.net/paradise/apply.htm) to Viable Paradise 2006.

I was thinking this too - hi Nicole!
So, umm ... if the novel isn't actually, completely, totally finished yet, (Maybe I didn't write every single tiny little syllable, no, but basically I wrote them, yeah. Klaatu barata *coughing fit*) can it still be used as a submission piece?
And what would one put for the word count if so, the current word count, or the expected word count?
-Barbara (apologising if this is hijacking the thread)

[James D. Macdonald]

What we're looking for is 10,000 words (including the synopsis) that tell us whether you can write.

And those 10,000 words should be the first 10,000 words (not chapters 8, 14, and 35 ... even if 8, 14, and 35 are Really Neat).

And as an update (not yet on the web page) -- new instructors this year are James Patrick Kelly and Cory Doctorow.

[Christine N.]

I just met JPK at Philcon this year - very nice man.

[Lady of Prose]

In the event that SOME of you have not read it yet, here is a decent article on alpha/beta readers.

http://www.sff.net/people/beth-bernobich/Essays/AlphaBeta.htm

[James D. Macdonald]

A brief off-topic interjection:

If anyone here is a politician, a working journalist, or knows a politician or working journalist, or would like to write some letters to politicians and working journalists ... there's an editor in New York who really needs your help.

Short version: The FDA has banned the one medicine that allows her to function normally.

Read the whole story here:

http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/007140.html

This is one of my fellow instructors at Viable Paradise we're talking about, and a good friend.

[ETA] Diane Duane comments on the story: http://outofambit.blogspot.com/2006_01_01_outofambit_archive.html#113630757285988 535

[M.A.Gardener]

Plot: amateur sleuth to solve murder
Subplot: in the process he struggles with his sense of purpose
Subplot: his sister and her new boyfriend, both of whom help solve the murder
Subplot: a woman from his past may help solve the murder
Subplot: an object from his past may help solve the murder
Subplot: his potential new love interest
Subplot: a family member of his potential new love interest is being held captive and may be the next victim

Wait, wait. Are these subplots or details? My head is spinning. How to I keep track of all this???

[Berry]

Plot: amateur sleuth to solve murder
Subplot: in the process he struggles with his sense of purpose
Subplot: his sister and her new boyfriend, both of whom help solve the murder


I think it's more like:

Plot: Amateur sleuth solves murder of owner of corner bagel shop

Details: shmeer was poisoned by baker, angry that the shop is no longer kosher.

Subplot: Sleuth's landlord tries to throw him out of his apartment for a petty reason

Details: The apartment is a third floor rent-controlled loft with a view of the Hudson River. Sleuth's fiance brought her cat when HER apartment was being painted, and HIS apartment is strictly no-pets, but landlord wants him out so he can rent to his brother-in-law instead and has seized on this reason.

Subplot: Sleuth spends so much time working on case his fiance wants to break up; he has to decide if this is good or bad.

Detail: Fiance has red hair, freckles and slight overbite. She's part Irish, part Italian and has a fiery temper.

[James D. Macdonald]

Those are some good examples, Berry. Thanks.

For the details on the Fiancee subplot, I'd try something like "Fiance is ambivalent about the wedding, worried that if the Sleuth is obsessive now he'll be impossible to live with twenty years from now, and concerned that how he treated the idea of keeping her cat for a few days (unenthusiastic) shows how he'll treat their kids in years to come."

[Berry]

That could work. Now we just need to give the sleuth some endearing hobbies and we have a cozy mystery/romance.

[James D. Macdonald]

He knits.

You want to write it? (Ideas are the easy part. The writing, now, that's tough.)

At two pages a day (500 words in manuscript format) you'll have a novel in six months.

I give you permission to write badly, so long as you write.

[M.A.Gardener]

I give you permission to write badly, so long as you write.

Alright, that does it! No more stewing about in my subplots quandry. I'm going to write badly! ;)

[Berry]

He knits.

You want to write it? (Ideas are the easy part. The writing, now, that's tough.)

Well, I have several other projects queued up, like the space opera and the thriller about the hitman with a heart of gold who agrees to help two kids get revenge on the guy who killed their father ... only HE did it...


You are SO right; ideas are easy.

[James D. Macdonald]

Happy Twelfth Night!

Those of you who are playing along at home now have a manuscript for a Frankenstein Mystery Short Story, one that doesn't contain any trademarked/copyrighted characters.

Your next assignment is to get your usual group of beta readers and have them read and comment on your story. Don't tell them anything about this story other than "Here, please scribble all over this" or words to that effect. No mention of the background of the story, why you're writing it, or what you expect from it. If you don't have a usual group of beta readers, get some.

Between now and 05FEB06, you are required to find the addresses of five paying markets that might possibly publish the story you've written. Print publications are definitely preferred.

The next part of the assignment comes on 05FEB06.

[Ken Schneider]

Okay, U.J.

Ken

[AnnaWhite]

Can I ask questions about submissions to Viable Paradise here?

[James D. Macdonald]

Sure, Anna.

You can also ask about 'em here: http://webnews.sff.net/read?cmd=xover&group=sff.workshop.viable-paradise&from=-10

[AnnaWhite]

The fact is, I'm very keen to attend the workshop. I tried to apply last June, but there were no places left. How much time do I have to send in my submission?

Unfortunately, I only have two completed and revised short stories that haven't yet been submitted to any magazine, and they are only just over 3,000 words each (total: 6,402 words, so quite a lot less than 10,000).

I also have the Frankenstein exercise (also just over 3,000 words), but although I recast the characters of Holmes and Watson, the style is still unmistakably Conan Doyle. I have a few other short stories, but I don't think they are any good. Besides the short stories, I have the sequel to the book that was printed by PA, but it is very much a 'sequel'. Originally, it was only one book.

So my question is, can I afford to wait until I finish another short story? Or should I send what I have immediately?

I'll be back online on Monday. A happy weekend to everybody!

[James D. Macdonald]

The workshop organizers usually send the first batch of submissions to the instructors in mid-March, then every month thereafter until we've filled the class.

We look at the submissions as: Obvious Invite, Let's Wait a Bit, and I Don't Think So. We keep going like that until we've filled the class.

Other instructors may have other criteria, but mine is: Do I think I have something useful to tell this person?

The staff figures it all out in June, though there may be some early acceptances. I don't have much to do with that end of things.

[Sharon Mock]

I attended last year and very highly recommend the experience.

I submitted two short stories, roughly the same total word count, and the length wasn't a problem. The one downside is that the two pieces tended to split attention, though I think most people tended to focus on one or the other.

My advice is to submit something that shows best who and where you are as a writer -- so that you can learn from its critique. (Once you're accepted to the workshop, you also have until mid-August to change your mind and send in something different. I ended up doing this with a newer draft of one of my two stories.)

As for when to apply... the staff says earlier is better, but I should think you could safely wait a month or two if you'd rather write something fresh.

[Ken Schneider]

I have a question.

In my current wip, I have scenes that I split, leaving the characters hanging, and rejoin them later to resolve the problem, or scene I left them in.

Should I,(is it standard), resolve the scene in the same chapter? Or, is it okay to resolve it in the next chapter?
I hope this makes sense.

[blacbird]

There isn't any standard.

caw.

[Ken Schneider]

I don't want to wait until the last chapter to resolve it, the reader may have forgotten the scene.

[zornhau]

Sounds like you're trying to artificially create forward momentum by inserting annoying chapter breaks.

Can't you resolve each scene, but give the resolution unexpected implications which will keep the reader reading?

E.g.
Sid: "Well, we sure kicked those orcs in the ###, Jeff... Jeff?"
Jeff: "Think I twisted my ankle. How the ### are we going to get up the Pass of Doom now?"
[End of chapter]
i.e. instead of cutting as the orcs attack: "Will our heroes prevail?" etc like the 1930s Flash Gordon serials, show them defeat the orcs but leave them with a complication.

[Ken Schneider]

Okay, let me see if I can explain this so that you may be able to give the answer I'm looking for.
By resolving the scene I mean to finish the cliffhanger that I left the group in when I changed scenes.

I want to have a page break, because I have differnet groups of people doing things to achieve a common end.

I want to leave these groups hanging in a bad, or difficult situations, or with unaswered questions, and then move on to a different group.

Then, I will come back later and answer those questions, or get them out of a stickty situation. I don't mean to say I stop in mid sentence, I can finish a scene.

This is the question, if you know, feel free to answer this question.

Is it common to have a page break, leave the characters in a difficult situation, go on to something else, and then come back to the other scene in the same chapter, or can it be the next chapter?

[HConn]

It can be either. Do whatever the story requires.

[Ken Schneider]

Thank you!

[zornhau]

Quite common to do either.

[Sean Bosker]

I don't want to wait until the last chapter to resolve it, the reader may have forgotten the scene.


For what it's worth, the first book in the His Dark Materials trilogy starts with the protagonist overhearing snippets of conversation that don't mean anything to her, or to the reader, and that conversation isn't referenced again until the very end of the book. By then, those words make sense, but the reader has almost certainly forgotten most of that conversation. It works fine in the book, it even creates a "Oh that's what they were talking about" moment.

[James D. Macdonald]

If I recall correctly, the first scene of The Golden Compass also has our protagonist sneaking around where she shouldn't be, in imminent danger of being discovered and getting in trouble. That she doesn't understand Adults talking about Adult Things isn't a problem there.

[Linda Adams]

Is it common to have a page break, leave the characters in a difficult situation, go on to something else, and then come back to the other scene in the same chapter, or can it be the next chapter?

But not so long that the reader forgets about the cliffhanger. I ran into a book by Kathy Reichs where she dropped a cliffhanger question without answering it and finally got around to answering it maybe ten chapters later. By then, I had forgotten the cliffhanger because of all the things that happened in between, and the cliffhanger quality had, over time, lost its effect.

[Rambling]

The subplot exampled above doesn't have much relevance to the main plot, and I was wondering if I'm losing complexity by trying to unify my story too much. Is it enough to have the subplot highlight or counterpoint a theme, even if it does nothing to drive forward the main thrust of the story?

[PurpleLady]

I had a similar experience. The beginning of my novel has a subplot that doesn't reappear later. It's sort of background about two of the main characters. However, even when I re-wrote it to give it more "bite," it was so different that I decided to cut the first chapter all together and begin with the main story.:e2writer:

[Puddle Jumper]

There are twenty-five simple steps to becoming a published author.

Here are the steps:

1. Black ink on white paper.
2. Place your name and address in the top left-hand corner of the first page.
3. Place the title and byline, centered, half-way down the first page.
4. Put a running head (your name, the title, and a page number) in the top right hand corner of every page.
5. Your pages should have one-inch margins.
6. Doublespace your text.
7. Use Courier 10 or Courier 12 only.
8. Type on one side of the paper only.
9. Continue until you reach "The End."
10. Rewrite.
11. Rewrite.
12.....21. Revise
22. Obtain the guidelines for a market that accepts material similar to what you have finished.
23. Follow the guidelines scrupulously when you submit your material.
24. While you are waiting for your rejection slip, start again back at step 1 for your next work.
25. When the rejection slip arrives, send the manuscript to the next market on your list, that same day.
Aw, you mean I can't use my pretty blue cloud paper? :Shrug:

What's the difference between rewriting and revising?

On the title page do you want to keep the same size font for the title as your text or do you want to make it bigger? What about bolding it? What about changing the font to make it a little fancier? And what about bolding chapter numbers and titles?

Title and byline - is by line where you write "By Your Name?" So you have it both there and up in the upper left hand corner of the title page?

Is there a difference between Courier and New Courier?

[Puddle Jumper]

Also, what if you have a really long title? For example if you're writing a series so that you have the series name plus the name of that exact book.

To take C.S. Lewis for example...

The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe

Would I want that full title "The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" at the top of every page or would I want to shorten it to just the book name, "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe?"

Or what if it's not a series like that and you just have a really long title?

And do you want it bolded to set it apart from the text or do you want it to be unbolded and look just like the text?

[Sharon Mock]

Also, what if you have a really long title? For example if you're writing a series so that you have the series name plus the name of that exact book.

To take C.S. Lewis for example...

The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe

Would I want that full title "The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" at the top of every page or would I want to shorten it to just the book name, "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe?"

Or what if it's not a series like that and you just have a really long title?

And do you want it bolded to set it apart from the text or do you want it to be unbolded and look just like the text?
In this case you'd abbreviate it to just a word or two. The way I've been taught is:
Lewis/Wardrobe/123

Same font and style as the rest of the text. Right aligned. Leave about a double space between the header and the rest of the text.

Here (http://www.sfwa.org/writing/vonda/vonda.htm) is a good visual resource on manuscript format.

[James D. Macdonald]

Aw, you mean I can't use my pretty blue cloud paper? :Shrug:



No.

What's the difference between rewriting and revising?

Rewriting gets the spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Revising is "looking again." Is there something else that needs to happen? Is this the best character to tell that part of the story? Does the story of the birthday party in chapter four, however amusing, belong? If so, would it go better in chapter eight? Is the ending as strong as it can be? Is the opening as smooth as it must be?


On the title page do you want to keep the same size font for the title as your text or do you want to make it bigger? What about bolding it? What about changing the font to make it a little fancier? And what about bolding chapter numbers and titles?

One font, one size. Why make your editor's job harder?


Title and byline - is by line where you write "By Your Name?" So you have it both there and up in the upper left hand corner of the title page?

The "byline" is "By [name of author that will appear on the story]." This is not always the same as [name of guy who wrote the story].


Is there a difference between Courier and New Courier?


No important difference for our purposes.

Also, what if you have a really long title? For example if you're writing a series so that you have the series name plus the name of that exact book.

To take C.S. Lewis for example...

The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe

Would I want that full title "The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" at the top of every page or would I want to shorten it to just the book name, "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe?"

Abbreviate. Lewis/Lion/1 ... etc. The purpose is so that when the pile holding your manuscript and fifteen others falls over, the editorial assistants can put all the manuscripts back together in the right order.

Or what if it's not a series like that and you just have a really long title?

Use one or two words from the title.

And do you want it bolded to set it apart from the text or do you want it to be unbolded and look just like the text?

One font, one size. What's with all this bolding? Just because your wordprocessor can doesn't mean you should. The header is already on its own line and flush right. No one's going to mistake it for the body text. Why distract the reader with boldface?

[Puddle Jumper]

Since the text would be double spaced, does that mean it should be the same space in comparison as the rest of the text? Thanks!

[Puddle Jumper]

Thank you James, that was very informative! I need to print that out. :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Since the text would be double spaced, does that mean it should be the same space in comparison as the rest of the text? Thanks!

What's the antecedent for "it" there?

If you mean the header: Yes, it's two lines above the first line of the body text.

[Puddle Jumper]

What's the antecedent for "it" there?

If you mean the header: Yes, it's two lines above the first line of the body text.

I was asking that in regards to what Sharon wrote...
Same font and style as the rest of the text. Right aligned. Leave about a double space between the header and the rest of the text.

[James D. Macdonald]

Back to Rambling's question:

It's perfectly fine to have subplots that don't advance the main plot -- provided they support the theme (either by directly supporting it, by comparing, by contrasting, by illustrating, or otherwise commenting on the theme.)

Everything needs to support the theme, advance the plot, or reveal character.

[Rambling]

Thanks! I'll postpone worrying about whether a subplot 'fits' until revising then - at least until my inner editor is better trained :)

[MasterRegal]

Two format question:

1. Do I put my pseudonym on the running header of every page in the manuscript, or do I put my real name?

2. How do you format subchapters? For example, I have Chapter One, and within this chapter I have I, II, III etc. I know I start in the middle of the page to start a new chapter, but how do I format the subchapters? Do I double space and continue?

[James D. Macdonald]

Two format question:

1. Do I put my pseudonym on the running header of every page in the manuscript, or do I put my real name?

Your choice. I'd use my real name, but it really doesn't matter.

2. How do you format subchapters? For example, I have Chapter One, and within this chapter I have I, II, III etc. I know I start in the middle of the page to start a new chapter, but how do I format the subchapters? Do I double space and continue?

Skip a line, center your sub-chapter heading, skip a line, continue.

[batgirl]

Everything needs to support the theme, advance the plot, or reveal character.
And two out of three would better than one out of three?
-Barbara

[Lady of Prose]

Jim,

Unless specified otherwise, is the rule of thumb for chapter breaks still new page, center? I've been seeing some variations here and there. I recently saw double space, including chapter break.

Now, I'm faced with a challenge. The submission guideline I'm formatting says to send along with the query a two page "detailed" synopsis of my MS.. They emphasize--"not an outline", but a synopsis. I plan on present tense narrative to do so. Am I correct in that assumption?

[Andrew Jameson]

If you haven't seen it, Lady, Miss Snark rips through dozens of synopses on her blog here (http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2005_12_25_misssnark_archive.html) and here (http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2006_01_01_misssnark_archive.html). An excellent resource, I think, to see what's right and what's wrong about syopses.

[Lady of Prose]

OH, AJ! Thank you so much for that reminder. I had bookmarked her "crapometer" for future reading and forgot about it. Yes, you are correct--excellent resource.:)

[James D. Macdonald]

And two out of three would better than one out of three?
-Barbara

Three out of three is better still.

If you have a word with zero out of three ... ask yourself why you want to have that word.

[James D. Macdonald]

Jim,

Unless specified otherwise, is the rule of thumb for chapter breaks still new page, center? I've been seeing some variations here and there. I recently saw double space, including chapter break.

New page, start the chapter half-way down the page. Center the chapter title or number, doublespace, indent, and type.

Now, I'm faced with a challenge. The submission guideline I'm formatting says to send along with the query a two page "detailed" synopsis of my MS.. They emphasize--"not an outline", but a synopsis. I plan on present tense narrative to do so. Am I correct in that assumption?

Present tense narrative, single spaced. Times Roman is acceptable. Think of how you'd tell your friend about a really good movie you saw last night. Put in the major plot highpoints and the surprise climax. The question they want answered is "Does this writer have a complete story with beginning, middle, and end?

[Ken Schneider]

What about scene breaks, U.J.?

I am currently doing this:

The sun touched the horizon and seemed to set the field ablaze.

***
The sun rose above the mountains to warm our backs as we continued our trek west.

Which, is the last line, space, scene break, one space, first line next scene.

[maestrowork]

Ken,

A scene break is done with a blank line, which is marked with a #.

The sun touched the horizon and seemed to set the field ablaze.
#
The sun rose above the mountains to warm our backs as we continued our trek west.

[James D. Macdonald]

Usually the hash mark is centered.

[DamaNegra]

Oh, isn't it done with three centered #'s?

[Lady of Prose]

I've seen guidelines and/or instructions that said 1-3 hash marks or asterisks and always centered.

[aertep]

Hey, it's good to see this thread back on page one where it belongs.

I had time off over the holidays and my B was In my C almost full time. What a feeling! I admit I didn't do the assignment. I didn't want to spend time away from my WIP. I can think of more acronyms, but can't stand too many.

I, too, need to know about hash marks. Centered, yes. Just one? Three? Does it matter, Uncle Jim?

[Berry]

I, too, need to know about hash marks. Centered, yes. Just one? Three? Does it matter, Uncle Jim?

I'm not Uncle Jim but I can guess what he'll say: No, it doesn't really matter, because if you have an exciting plot with engaging characters told in a compelling way, by the time the reader -- agent, editor, or whomever -- reaches your first scene break they'll be so engrossed in the story they won't care if you have one or three or a dozen hash marks.

On the other hand, if you have a trite story with cardboard cutout characters and leaden prose, even perfect formatting won't save it.

[maestrowork]

Just one. The hash mark is a typesetter's mark for blank line. Just use one #. Make it easy for the editor and the typesetter (when it goes to production). Besides, it saves you ink and word count. ;)

[aertep]

Thanks, Berry and Ray.

Is it acceptable in this thread to congratulate Maestro on his five-star reviews on Amazon and B&N?

[Ken Schneider]

Hey, Petrea good to see you back. B in the C will get you an A, for writing.

Time off? Switch agents.http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Ken

[Lady of Prose]

What are some of the chief complaints from editors relating to scene change? This is something I'm struggling with somewhat. Or, what is a good rule of thumb to follow?

I'm not talking about the obvious--morning to night, etc.. I'm speaking of instances where perhaps there are flashback scenes or memories, then you return to the original scene. Should it be that a scene change is just that, no matter the length or time? Or do we stay with the current setting?

[James D. Macdonald]

Chief complaints from editors?

Dunno. If I were guessing: "Clumsily done. Threw me out of the story" would be the worst complaint about scene shifts.

This is an art. If it works, it's right. Your readers will tell you if it works.

(And Berry -- you have learned well. Now you are the master.)

[Lady of Prose]

This is an art. If it works, it's right. Your readers will tell you if it works.



Okay--thanks. I understand what you are saying, and I'm now comfortable with what I'm doing.

[blacbird]

This is an art.

Damn! . . . so THAT'S my problem.

caw.

[batgirl]

The workshop organizers usually send the first batch of submissions to the instructors in mid-March, then every month thereafter until we've filled the class.

We look at the submissions as: Obvious Invite, Let's Wait a Bit, and I Don't Think So. We keep going like that until we've filled the class.

What do the relative proportions of those three piles tend to be?
-Barbara (just curious. Really.)

[Berry]

(And Berry -- you have learned well. Now you are the master.)


Thank you, sir! However, I realize I still have a LOT to learn from the wise ones, such as your august self.

[James D. Macdonald]

I've never counted how many manuscripts go in each category.

We stop looking after we've filled the class.

[fallenangelwriter]

I have a request for help wiht capitalization: when a word cna be both a noun and a title, such as king, pope, or lord, when is it capitalized?

These are the ways i've been using them:

"Hello, Lord."

"who's he?" "The King of England."

"I've just been to talk with the king."

"popes are elected by a group of cardinals."

are any or all these correct? incorrect? what, exactly, is the rule?

[SeanDSchaffer]

I have a request for help wiht capitalization: when a word cna be both a noun and a title, such as king, pope, or lord, when is it capitalized?

These are the ways i've been using them:

"Hello, Lord."

"who's he?" "The King of England."

"I've just been to talk with the king."

"popes are elected by a group of cardinals."

are any or all these correct? incorrect? what, exactly, is the rule?


I have a major problem figuring this out, too. What are the rules concerning capitalization of titles?

[aertep]

I have a request for help wiht capitalization: when a word cna be both a noun and a title, such as king, pope, or lord, when is it capitalized?

These are the ways i've been using them:

"Hello, Lord."

"who's he?" "The King of England."

"I've just been to talk with the king."

"popes are elected by a group of cardinals."

are any or all these correct? incorrect? what, exactly, is the rule?

Most of these are correct, fallenangelwriter. You would capitalize when using the person's title in a name. For example, King John, but not, as in your second example, "the king of England." I can't quote the rule specifically and I don't see it in my Strunk & White. Generally, though, the title is capitalized only when you're referring to the specific person, as in President Abraham Lincoln, but not when you're referring to the office in general, as you did correctly in your fourth example, "popes are elected by a group of cardinals."

[Berry]

"popes are elected by a group of cardinals."


Well, that's wrong, but not why you think. "Popes" should be capitalized as the first word of the sentence.

But in general, if you're talking about popes or cardinals or lords or kings in general, lower case is OK. If you're talking about THE Pope, or Her Majesty the Queen, or Cardinal Gizorninplatz, capitalize.

Something like the Chicago Manual of Style will be more authoritative.

But really, this is something the copyeditor will have to worry about, not you. Don't obsess about it, choose something consistent and keep writing.

[Ken Schneider]

I have also seen the capitalzation question covered in Strunk and White's Elements of style. As well as, The Well-Tempered sentence, by Karen Gordon, Merriam-Webster's Guide to punctuation and style, and the Associoated Press style book/AP stylebook.

[Lady of Prose]

Simplified help for grammar -- http://www.dailygrammar.com/archive.shtml

[James D. Macdonald]

Titles are capitalized when it's the guy's name.

As others have said above. When you're writing, just be consistent (and Beware the Curse of Promiscuous Over-capitalization).

--------------

And a brief comment on my latest bit of self-publication (http://www.lulu.com/content/219003). In this case, I'm using Lulu as an easy Xerox machine. This coming February, Doyle and I have been invited to speak to a couple of classes on publishing at the University of Connecticut. The instructor wanted the students to read some of our works, without making them go out and buy multiple anthologies just for one story in each. So I genned up a quick chapbook of three of our stories, my beloved wife did a cover (yes, it's legal to own those things in New Hampshire), and we put on line. Rather than keeping it private for the students, though, I pressed the button that said "make this available to the public" (or words to that effect). The advertising that I'm doing, sig lines, on my web page, etc., is no-cost. I've not yet decided if I'll leave it up after the class meets. I probably will take the PDF down (leaving only hard copy), if I put the same stories on Fictionwise.com (something else I'm thinking of doing with our old short stories).

[katee]

And a brief comment on my latest bit of self-publication (http://www.lulu.com/content/219003). In this case, I'm using Lulu as an easy Xerox machine. This coming February, Doyle and I have been invited to speak to a couple of classes on publishing at the University of Connecticut. The instructor wanted the students to read some of our works, without making them go out and buy multiple anthologies just for one story in each. So I genned up a quick chapbook of three of our stories, my beloved wife did a cover (yes, it's legal to own those things in New Hampshire), and we put on line. Rather than keeping it private for the students, though, I pressed the button that said "make this available to the public" (or words to that effect). The advertising that I'm doing, sig lines, on my web page, etc., is no-cost. I've not yet decided if I'll leave it up after the class meets. I probably will take the PDF down (leaving only hard copy), if I put the same stories on Fictionwise.com (something else I'm thinking of doing with our old short stories).
Did you have to worry about rights when you put the stories together in the book?

[Berry]

Did you have to worry about rights when you put the stories together in the book?

Any time you publish something you have to worry about the rights.

In this case, it was stories Uncle Jim had sold the first serial rights to, and collecting them in an anthology/chapbook doesn't conflict, assuming he kept all other rights, which I know Jim is far to savvy not to. (He also doesn't write sentences like that last disaster there. I'm still learning.)

[James D. Macdonald]

All I sold were first serial rights, with a six month exclusive period after publication of the anthologies. Since the most recent of the anthologies came out in 2002, that's long passed.

One of those stories has been reprinted two other times in two other anthologies (with new payments each time, hurray, go me!). Since I kept all the rights other than first serial (which, of its nature, can only be sold once), I can do with them as I please.

[batgirl]

Other instructors may have other criteria, but mine is: Do I think I have something useful to tell this person?

If this isn't too off-topic, what sorts of something useful have you found to tell people?
I realise that to some extent the answer is spread through this thread, but I think what I'm wondering is - what do you find lacking or insufficient in the work of beginning writers that can be encouraged or developed over the course of the workshop?
-Barbara (who only got Logical Chess a few months ago and is still catching up)

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm the shape-of-a-story guy.

I don't really care much about the grammar; I ask "Does this person have somewhere they're going?" If yes, I can talk with them about refining that. If not ... I can't help.

[Sailor Kenshin]

I may have asked this before (or someone else did!) but---is there a thread like this on crafting short stories?

[Berry]

I may have asked this before (or someone else did!) but---is there a thread like this on crafting short stories?

Well, there's the Short Fiction studio (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15).

But I don't think there's a thread like this, where someone like Uncle Jim, who is both a successful novelist AND a gifted teacher, does the same for short fiction.

[Ken Schneider]

Right, Berry. U.J. has said, "Every story must have a,beginning, middle, and an end.

I think that holds true no matter the word count.

[James D. Macdonald]

I (we) have sold about as many short stories as novels.

The differences are these:

You don't have any room for error in a short story.

A novel can do many things; a short story only does one.

============

Think of 'em this way:

If you're doing aerobatics, and you're flying at 5,000 feet, you have room to recover. If you're doing aerobatics and you're flying at 500 feet, you're dead.

A short story is a single joke. A novel is a comedy routine.

[aertep]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I just finished reading the three stories in "The Confessions of Peter Crossman." I enjoyed them thoroughly and recommend them to everyone. They're taut, terse and imaginative. Like I told my husband, "God with a gun." An uncommon combination of style and subject matter that works, tongue firmly planted in cheek. They're good examples of what's talked about in this thread, very tightly packed.

The book is good study material for everyone, plus Valentine's day is coming up and it makes a great gift.

[James D. Macdonald]

On the uselessness of Amazon Comments:

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-522532.html?legacy=zdnn

[James D. Macdonald]

I enjoyed them thoroughly and recommend them to everyone.

If you think my books suck, tell me.

If you think they're great, tell everyone else.

[aertep]

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif I think they're great. If I didn't, I probably wouldn't have said anything at all.

If you think my books suck, tell me.

If you think they're great, tell everyone else.

[JDElder]

I'm working on a political satire and I have a couple general questions about the do's and dont's concerning names of public/famous people and the use of song titles.

Example:

"You write a book. You write a manifesto, your views and opinions, what you want to accomplish. What do you think Al Gore did before he ran for president? He wrote a book. John McCain? He wrote a book."

Junior was a huge fan of a diverse array of country artists ranging from the Texas sound of The Derailers, Junior Brown, BR-549, Robert Earl Keen, Charlie and Bruce Robison to mainstream country acts such as Hank Williams, Jr., Travis Tritt, Darryl Worley, Brooks and Dunn, Vince Gill, and Toby Keith.

People still talk about the night the Pirates’ performed on Valentine’s Day at Hack’s Rusty Nail Saloon and played a steel-guitar, fiddle-laced medley consisting of George Michael’s “I Want Your Sex,” “Why Don’t We Get Drunk and Screw” by Jimmy Buffett, Barry Manilow’s classic “Copacabana,” and topped it off with a two stepping version of Queen’s “Fat Bottomed Girls."

Would any of the above be problematic?

Now if I'm writing a character based on a specific person, obviously I would change the name to something fictional. George W. Bush would become Robert W. Rush for example. John Kerry- John Carey.

Is there anything else I need to be concerned about in general?

[James D. Macdonald]

The more public the person, the less protection that person has.

Titles can't be copyrighted, but songs may be special cases if, for example, the title is also one of the lines.

Always ask if the effect you want requires the particular name/title/whatever.

For real answers, please talk to a real lawyer.

[JDElder]

Understood. Obviously, I would write it in for background purposes to define a particular character.
Thanks James.

[Ken Schneider]

Jim, Could you list certain points that need/should be covered in a query letter, and those points one should stay away from?

[Grey Malkin]

Titles can't be copyrighted, but songs may be special cases if, for example, the title is also one of the lines.

Just wanding about, and noticed this. In the UK charts, back in the eighties there was a time when there were three different versions of "The Power of Love", in the top 20 at the same time. They weren't cover versions, either, each one was different to the other. The artists were, Jennifer Rush, Huey Lewis and the News, and Frankie Goes to Hollywood.

I wonder who held the rights to the title, and if they had any claim to profits of the others.

[James D. Macdonald]

Jim, Could you list certain points that need/should be covered in a query letter, and those points one should stay away from?

What should be covered?

Genre and length.

What one should stay away from?

How much you need the money, and how certain you are that this book will be a best-seller.

[Ken Schneider]

James D. Macdonald: Happy Twelfth Night!

Those of you who are playing along at home now have a manuscript for a Frankenstein Mystery Short Story, one that doesn't contain any trademarked/copyrighted characters.

Your next assignment is to get your usual group of beta readers and have them read and comment on your story. Don't tell them anything about this story other than "Here, please scribble all over this" or words to that effect. No mention of the background of the story, why you're writing it, or what you expect from it. If you don't have a usual group of beta readers, get some.

Between now and 05FEB06, you are required to find the addresses of five paying markets that might possibly publish the story you've written. Print publications are definitely preferred.

The next part of the assignment comes on 05FEB06.


Only a few more day to polish the story, folks.

[James D. Macdonald]

What I've been telling you all along:

http://freerangelibrarian.com/2006/01/being_able_to_write.php

[Ken Schneider]

When a publisher says no simulations submissions,

Do they mean the same ms/ short story sent to different publishers?

Or, does that mean you can only send that publisher one ms or story at a time?

If your first story is in the pile, and you wait a week to send the second story, wouldn’t that be like just waiting in the Que?

[jules]

"Back it up in a way that if your office goes up in flames you still have your work somewhere. N.b.: it is that last step I still haven't accomplished to my satisfaction, but I am thinking hard about off-site backup (in addition to local backup and local hard copies)."

I encrypt a disk of my work, and keep it in the greenhouse in my back garden. If somebody steels it, they get a useless DVD-R. If the house burns down, hopefully it will be safe. It's only if both happen within a week or so of each other that I have a problem.

If you don't have a garden you can keep stuff in, you could e-mail it to a webmail account. I wouldn't describe it as being as safe, but it works.

[James D. Macdonald]

Offsite backup is a good thing. But you really don't need to worry about people stealing your manuscript.

[Lady of Prose]

Offsite backup is a good thing. But you really don't need to worry about people stealing your manuscript.

I have 3 offsite backups and a CDR in my disk file. My big thing was remembering to back up every few minutes while writing. I've lost some good work that I never could duplicate exactly, because I hit the wrong key. Very frustrating.

[(grasshopper)]

Offsite backup is a good thing. But you really don't need to worry about people stealing your manuscript.

I've heard this said before, but I'm not sure of the reasoning. Could you expand on that?

[James D. Macdonald]

I've heard this said before, but I'm not sure of the reasoning. Could you expand on that?

An unpublished manuscript is, essentially, worthless. The only things that get plagiarized are published works. I can think of only one case where an unpublished work was stolen and published ... and in that case the two authors were partners who were working together, but only one of them put his name on the manuscript when submitting it.

Suppose someone did steal your manuscript. What would they do with it? It would take them just as much trouble to sell as it would take you, then they wouldn't be able to revise it when the time came.

[Berry]

I've heard this said before, but I'm not sure of the reasoning. Could you expand on that?

Why woulkd anyone want to steal it? Would YOU go out and steal random novel manuscripts from wannabe writers? Well, no, you or I wouldn't, but consider this:

Evil person steals random wannabes bottom-of-the-slushpile MS, has worthless pile of crap he can't do anything with. Who cares?

Evil person steals berry's or grasshopper's brilliant debut novel MS, tries to sell it, finds out agent has already seen our submissions, retires in confusion.

Evil person steals well known author's MS, submits it, agent says "Foo! You are not Steven King! Away wi' ye!"

Evil person steals MS, puts it on website, author finds it with Google, has Evil Person arrested.

So, there's really no profitable reason to steal a MS.

[(grasshopper)]

Ahhh . . . . I see . . . .

Never looked at it from the other side before.
Thanks.

[maestrowork]

We all would like to think we're so brilliant that everyone would want to steal our work.

Such beautiful paranoia.

[James D. Macdonald]

The workshop organizers usually send the first batch of submissions to the instructors in mid-March, then every month thereafter until we've filled the class.

Things are moving quicker than expected. Here it is first week of February and we've already had two batches sent to us.

[Ken Schneider]

I know I'm a pest. I can feel it in the written word, and replies. Don't ask me how I can feel it, I just can.

U.J. has a lot of things going at one time, I don't.

At the risk of facing his rath, which he hasn't displayed to me as yet, It's Feb 05- 06, Jim, and the next step in the Frankenstein excercise is due.

I'm just excited. If it is delayed a few days for some reason, so be it. I'm working on my WIP so I do have something to do.

Excuse my enthusiasm.

Ken.

[SeanDSchaffer]

I wouldn't be too worried about it, Ken. I think Uncle Jim's a pretty patient guy. In the year or so that I've been a member here I remember him getting openly angry on the forums once.

[James D. Macdonald]

For those who came in late:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=415062&postcount=4768
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=431719&postcount=4855
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=436157&postcount=4859
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=443407&postcount=4880


Well, folks, here it is the 5th of February. You have a story with a beginning, a middle, and an end.

You have your beta readers comments, you have your list of five paying markets.

The deadline is close of business tomorrow!

Take the beta readers' comments, and re-write your story to the best of your ability, making use of those comments. Then print it out in proper manuscript format (http://www.sfwa.org/writing/format_betancourt.htm), put on a cover letter (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/printthread.php?t=6710&page=11&pp=25), add an SASE (self-addressed stamped envelope), and PUT IT IN THE MAIL.

By five p.m. tomorrow, Monday the 6th of February, you'll have a story out there.

When it comes back (and it will), THAT SAME DAY put it in an envelope and send it to the next place on your list. Do not let a manuscript sleep over.

YOU MUST DO THIS FOR ALL FIVE ADDRESSES YOU'VE FOUND (unless it sells first).

When it's come back from those five, put it in a file folder, with a disk copy, plus the sheet with the five addresses. Put that day's date on it, and put it in your file cabinet.

One year from that day, take the story out and re-read it. Then, and only then, can you make any changes from what you have written and revised by tomorrow's deadline. (Exception: If the story sells, and the editor requests changes, I leave it to your conscience whether to make those changes.)

SO:

Tomorrow at five p.m. send it out. Tomorrow at six p.m. start your next story. Your quota is 250 words. They don't have to be good words; all they have to do is exist.

[blacbird]

When it comes back (and it will), THAT SAME DAY put it in an envelope and send it to the next place on your list.

Okay. I've made a vow to myself to be less negative, so this is not intended to be so. But I have to question the "and it will" here. My return rate, of any sort, on short fiction submissions is only about 50%. I've had many many many submissions simply disappear into the ozone, even with follow-up letters after several months. And, before anybody asks, yes, I ALWAYS send a proper SASE.

Which again brings up the question of simultaneous submission vs. sequential submission. Comments?

caw.

[scribbler1382]

Have you tried SASP (Self Addressed Stamped Postcards) so you can be notified when your manuscript arrives? Granted, sometimes the envelopes don't get opened until they're reading the manuscripts, but you could at least improve your information, if not perfect it.

50%? Unless you're not sending out that many, there's definitely something wrong there. I've had manuscripts go missing over the years, but it's more like 5%. And most of mine are usually mailed to a foreign country.

[blacbird]

Yup. Not always, but I have tried that too. With equally unsatisfactory results.

caw.

[James D. Macdonald]

Okay. I've made a vow to myself to be less negative, so this is not intended to be so. But I have to question the "and it will" here. My return rate, of any sort, on short fiction submissions is only about 50%. I've had many many many submissions simply disappear into the ozone, even with follow-up letters after several months. And, before anybody asks, yes, I ALWAYS send a proper SASE.

Which again brings up the question of simultaneous submission vs. sequential submission. Comments?

caw.


First, limit yourself to top-tier markets. Less likely things will get lost that way. Second, the postcards: Why do you care when the thing was opened? What will you do differently on the day you get the postcard back, if you included one? Either they offer to buy the story or they don't. Anything else is a waste of your time and theirs. Third, simultaneous submissions. Only do this if the market clearly states that they accept simsubs, and clearly mark that this is a simultaneous submission in the cover letter.

[Jeneral]

I came in too late for the story exercise, so this is a more general question.

Only do this if the market clearly states that they accept simsubs, and clearly mark that this is a simultaneous submission in the cover letter.

How would you word this? In the submission guidelines for a few agents, I've seen things like "let us know whether you have submitted this project to the entire publishing community already," or "simultaneous submission is okay, just let us know." Do they really want to know "you're the fifth agent I've sent this to" ?

[maestrowork]

Not the "fifth" or "twelve" -- just "another agent is currently evaluating the material" or some such.

[James D. Macdonald]

In the last paragraph of the cover letter, where you might put "this is a disposable manuscript," you put "this is a simultaneous submission." That's it.

For some reason that I've never figured out, some writers include copies of their prior rejection slips with their submissions.

Please don't do that.

[blacbird]

For some reason that I've never figured out, some writers include copies of their prior rejection slips with their submissions.

I've done some dumb things in my life (there was the episode with the goats and the peanut butter, for example, on which it is irrelevant to elaborate further), but I ain't never done that.

caw.

[Sailor Kenshin]

I've done some dumb things in my life (there was the episode with the goats and the peanut butter, for example, on which it is irrelevant to elaborate further), but I ain't never done that.

caw.

I did that once by accident. Dohhh!

[James D. Macdonald]

Speaking of simsubs, as we were:

There are two paths here, one going to agents, one going to editors.

If you're looking for an agent, it's normal and expected to query a dozen or fifty at a time. Just spell their names right. If one comes back and asks for an exclusive, make sure you have reasonable time limits and dates on it. A six week exclusive isn't out of bounds.

I keep hearing, "Suppose I hear back from a better agent?" The answer, O seeker after wisdom, is this: Don't query any agent you wouldn't be delighted to have represent you.

The second path is through editors. Here, only simsub if the market explicitly states that it's okay. If they're silent on the subject, assume no simsubs. If they say "No simultaneous submissions," it would behoove you to believe them.

Now on to cases. Suppose you submit to a bunch markets that allow simsubs. Suppose you get an offer back from a 1/4-cent-a-word market, you gleefully accept it, and the next day you get an offer from a ten-cent-a-word market. What then, Pilgrim? Answer: Same as above, don't submit to any market you wouldn't be delighted to have publish you.

You will find folks who say, "Go on, young writer. Submit simultaneously to markets that say 'No simultaneous submissions.' You're only hurting yourself by giving 'em exclusive looks."

I say, "Bah! Humbug!" You don't win a prize for getting the most rejections soonest. You're working on your next piece.

First, that's a form of betting against yourself. You're betting that no one will want your story anyway.

I will tell you a true thing: A story that's publishable by one is publishable by many. If you're writing at a publishable level, you're likely to get more than one offer. What then, sprout?


By the time an offer comes to you, the publisher has already expended time and money on your piece. They've run profit/loss numbers, figured out where it'll fit in the schedule, and are ready to go with it. They won't be happy to have it withdrawn.

Next, you will be found out. Editors all know each other. They talk with each other. One of the things they talk about is the great new writer they just discovered. So if your story is that flaming good (and why did you submit it if it wasn't?), they're going to be talking about it with their friends from other houses while they're picking up their sandwiches to eat back at their desks. (If al Qaeda wanted to destroy New York publishing there's one particular deli they could bomb at lunchtime.)

One of the fictions that you're writing is that the publisher you submitted to is the one among all the publishers in the world that you really, really want to see publish your book. (That's why in the cover letter you want to make sure that not only did you spell the name of the editor correctly, but that the editor works there and you've changed all references to the publishing house to the name of the house you're currently submitting to.) They want to think that they're the first girl you asked to the prom.

So, why not anyway? Because the next time one of your books comes in, the folks who see it will say "Bet he's submitted it to everyone in Writer's Market" and slip it back in the SASE with a pre-printed form. Faced with 18,000 slush manuscripts, editors are looking for easy rejects. "Functionally illiterate from Page One" is good for that, but "Doesn't follow the guidelines" is also fast and easy. Editors aren't cutting you any slack; they're looking for reasons to say no.

Shall we talk about agents and auctions now?

Those are one reason it's good to get an agent. Agents aren't limited to one submission at a time. They can hold auctions, which is a form of simultaneous submission. They are banking their reputations on finding Good Stuff -- so you need an agent with that reputation.

The agent calls up however-many of her editor friends who might like the manuscript, and says "I'm holding an auction ... do you want in?" and messengers the manuscript over to the ones who say yes. It's got a closing date and time. After that, the fun starts.

The first publisher to come in with a reasonable offer -- one that the author would accept -- gets the floor. If no other acceptable bids come in, they get the book. (There are advantages to having the floor, which I'll get to in a minute.) If other bids come in, all the folks who are bidding are informed, and can come back with better offers. Better offers may not be for more money -- they may be for future books, or variations in rights sought, or accounting, or publicity.... and so on, until the auction closes. At that point, the publisher that got the floor gets a chance to trump whatever the winning bit was, by paying 10% more. So whoever gets in the first bid is guaranteed to get the book, if they want it enough.

That's where you want a savvy agent.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Things are moving quicker than expected. Here it is first week of February and we've already had two batches sent to us.Must... freakin'... submit...!

One year from that day, take the story out and re-read it. Then, and only then, can you make any changes from what you have written and revised by tomorrow's deadline.I actually have a couple of stories that have hit that mark, and have been putting off revising them and sending them out again.

Stoppit, self!

Thank you for the ongoing kick-in-the-butt posts. I pledge to pay attention, even if my current writerly tasklist prevents my following the more specific homework assignments.

[Ken Schneider]

I would then guess that one could submit different short stories to the same house, say, a week apart?

Does it hurt to have two stories in the pile, if they are different?

I've been taught to be persistant. Go back until they say, "This guy is serious, hire him."

Of course, if the work isn't any good, you could send a different story a thousand times and not get published.

Then, if you send too much stuff, and they know your name by looking at the envelope, you could get the quick rejection after having improved your craft without them ever looking at the new work. URGGGG.

Send one and wait, me thinks.

Explore the options before posting next time, dummy.

Okay, I will.

Thanks.
No, thank you.

[James D. Macdonald]

Send as many or as few as you want. Just don't put them all in the same envelope.

Some people don't hold with that, saying that you're competing with yourself. So you could come up with a list of, say, 20 places that might take your stuff, and start story #1 with place #1, story #2 with place #2, and rotate around the list until you've hit 'em all (then retire that story for a year).

Or, you could hand-select which market would be ideal for your story, and send it there first. If you write two stories a week apart that would be perfect for the same place, send 'em both to the same place, a week apart.

Seriously, just write and submit. Gaming the system to any finer level gets you into the Avoiding Submission trap.

[Seattlelion]

I was searching for some dirt on The New York Literary Agency though Google and found a lot of dirt on them in here and I am glad because I found none on them in ripoffreport.com; but they have dirt on them now in ripoffreport.com because I sent the information I found from here to there. I just started getting involved with The New York Literary Agency last week and something did not seem right with their emails so I went into a deeper search to find something on them. I did in here. I am glad because I am cutting off all ties with them before any contract was even negotiated.

Anyways I will get to the point here and ask if anyone knows without a benefit of a doubt who is the most honest, legit company for editing and publishing romance poetry and novels?

I have read so much crap on all these companies on the internet that is makes me think their all crooks. There has to be a company that is on the up and up that will work with you on a royalty type basis and if any moneys needed to be spent out of my pocket, it won't break my bank account.

Does and can anyone here tell me if they know about one?

[James D. Macdonald]

This is from the RWA site:

Definition of a Publisher:

A RITA-eligible publisher is defined as a royalty-paying publishing house that (1) is not a subsidy or vanity publisher (2) has been releasing books via national distribution for a minimum of one year, and (3) has sold a minimum of 1,500 hardcover or trade paperback copies or 5,000 copies in any other format, including print on demand, of a single romance novel or novella or collection of novellas in book form, in bona fide arms-length transactions, and continues to sell a minimum of 1,500 hardcover or trade paperback copies or 5,000 copies in any other format of a subsequent romance novel each year.

As of December 1, 2005, the following publishers and their imprints are RITA-Eligible:

Baker Book House www.bakerbooks.com (http://www.bakerbooks.com/)



Baker Books
Bethany House
Revell
Barbour Publishing www.barbourbooks.com (http://www.barbourbooks.com/)



Heartsong Presents
Belle Books www.bellebooks.com
(http://www.bellebooks.com/)Brilliance AudioBooks www.brillianceaudiobooks.com
(http://www.brillianceaudiobooks.com/)Broadman & Holman www.broadmanholman.com (http://www.broadmanholman.com/)
Chariot Victor
Cook Communications Ministries www.cookministries.com (http://www.cookministries.com/)
Crossings Book Club
Dorchester Publishing www.dorchesterpub.com (http://www.dorchesterpub.com/)



Leisure
Love Spell
Ellora’s Cave www.ellorascave.com (http://www.ellorascave.com/)
(http://www.genesis-press.com/)Granite Publishing www.granitepublishing.biz (http://www.granitepublishing.biz/)

Harlequin Enterprises www.eharlequin.com (http://www.eharlequin.com/)



Harlequin Books
HQN LUNA
Mills & Boon
MIRA
Red Dress Ink
Silhouette Books
Steeple Hill Books
HarperCollins www.harpercollins.com (http://www.harpercollins.com/)



Avon Books www.avonromance.com (http://www.avonromance.com%20/)[/url]
HarperCollins Children’s Books
Harvest House www.harvesthousepublishers.com (http://www.avonromance.com%20/)
(http://www.hawkpub.com/) Howard Publishing www.howardpublishing.com
(http://www.howardpublishing.com/) (http://www.imajinnbooks.com/)
Kensington Publishing www.kensingtonbooks.com (http://www.kensingtonbooks.com/)



Brava Dafina Encanto Kensington Pinnacle Strapless Zebra
Zebra Regency
Kregel Publications http://kregel.gospelcom.net (http://kregel.gospelcom.net/)

Loveland Press www.lovelandpress.com
(http://www.lovelandpress.com/)
Macmillan www.mcp.com (http://www.mcp.com/)



Pan Macmillan www.panmacmillan.com (http://www.panmacmillan.com/)
St. Martin’s Press www.stmartins.com (http://www.stmartins.com/)
Tor/Forge www.tor.com (http://www.tor.com/)
Medallion Press www.medallionpress.com (http://www.medallionpress.com/)

Multnomah Publishing www.mpbooks.com
(http://www.mpbooks.com/)
Penguin Putnam www.penguinputnam.com (http://www.penguinputnam.com/)



Berkley
Dutton
G.P. Putnam’s Sons
Putnam
Jove
NAL
Onyx
Penguin
Signet
Viking
Random House Publishing www.randomhouse.com (http://www.randomhouse.com/)



Ballantine Books
Bantam
Delacorte
Dell
Doubleday
Fawcett
Ivy
Literary Guild/Doubleday Book Club
Random House
WaterBrook Press
Red Sage Publishing www.redsagepub.com
(http://www.redsagepub.com/) Severn House www.severnhouse.com (http://www.severnhouse.com/)

Simon & Schuster www.simonsays.com (http://www.simonsays.com/)



Atria
Downtown Press
Pocket Books
Simon Pulse
Thomas Bouregy & Co.



Avalon Books www.avalonbooks.com (http://www.avalonbooks.com%c2%a0/)[url="http://www.avalonbooks.com%c2%a0/"] (http://www.avalonbooks.com%c2%a0/)
Thomas Nelson



W Publishing Group
http://www.thomasnelson.com/consumer/dept.asp?dept_id=250000&TopLevel_id=250000
Tyndale House www.tyndale.com (http://www.tyndale.com/)



HeartQuest
Warner Books www.twbookmark.com (http://www.twbookmark.com/)



Center Street
Warner Faith
Warner Forever
Zondervan www.zondervan.com (http://www.zondervan.com/)

[Peggy]

Anyways I will get to the point here and ask if anyone knows without a benefit of a doubt who is the most honest, legit company for editing and publishing romance poetry and novels?There is a lot of good information over on the Romance board:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=37

[James D. Macdonald]

For poetry you're on your own. Many poets self-publish chapbooks, and sell them via non-traditional distribution (e.g. from a box on stage when they do a reading on Open Mike Night).

Many magazines use poetry as filler. Find their guidelines, follow them to the letter. Never, ever, pay to get published. Don't buy your own books (that's poetry.com's scam).

Where do you find the poetry that you read yourself? Submit your works to the same places.

Good luck with that. You know the most seldom-heard sentence in English? "Hey, look at that poet's Mercedes!"

[Ken Schneider]

Twice, since I've had this grand revelation have I been told to keep writing novels, and don't count on short story writing if you want to write as your day job. Unless, you've married a widow with millions. When it is your full time job, it isn't fun anymore.

One by e-mail.

Once having read it on the internet at a famous writer's site.

Why?

You'll expend the same amount of time writing short stories as you will a novel.

How?
1. You are still writing at the same pace. X number of pages a day.

2.You don't have to come up with new story lines and plots twice a week.

3. A new writer of a novel length story should garner an advance of around, say 3,000 for an accepted novel.

4. Short stories will bring in 300.00 a pop. How many can you write a year? Get published? 12 months x stories = $3,600 for 12 stories.

5. Short stories are harder to write. Less room for error. There's more, is there ever.

6. If you can write at all, it doesn't matter. The novel will sell. If you can write professional quality tomes they will be accepted if submitted to the right market.


I like to write short stories.

Then do so between novels. You can't take a break writing short stories for a living, no time to waste. Novels at some point, if sold, will continue to funnel money in royalties.

Writing short stories will help your novel writing. Writing novels will help your short stories. Writing anything will help your writing. Writing well will help improve your chances of being accepted.


And, on another note.

So this is why I'm done at 60,000 words, or partly so.

Pacing not plot and storyline.

If your story pace, (not word count typed), is too fast, you chew up your plot like a elephant goes through grass. i.e., you've told the story before you have a novel length book. Hence, sub-plots, internal conflict explained, character relationships exposed, as well as character developement. And, more that I don't even understand what they are talking about.

Oh, Hitchcock, you rascal, who told you to say, McGuffin?

What I don't know can't help me, and what I do know has confused me. The stop light has changed from green to red, and can't be changed back to green until I investigate further.

Put a fork in me!

[James D. Macdonald]

On the other hand, if short stories is what you're good at, and what you love doing, why not?

Very few people make a living at this racket anyway.

All writing is hard. Some kinds are harder for people than some other kinds.

You just mailed a short story, didn't you? You're about to start another, aren't you?

I'm probably going to start on a short story myself this afternoon. Why? Because the idea isn't big enough for a novel.

This is the novels board. There's going to be a prejudice toward novels.

Don't let anything that's said here stop you from following your heart.

[James D. Macdonald]

You want an example of someone who writes only short works? Take Ted Chiang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Chiang). His complete published works fit in one hardcover anthology.

If he ever decided to write a novel, it would get a serious read very quickly. So far he doesn't appear to have the urge to write a novel.

There isn't any one path. There isn't any one style. At the end, there is only the reader. Please the reader and all will be well.

[Ken Schneider]

Yes, I just sent "That" short story out today.

I have written four others, in a series I thought up, in that same genre, and have half of another written.

Re-worked the first of those, and sent it also.

I attacked it with a passion.

It is fun.

I know they are written much better than what I could have done a few months ago. That being said, what mistakes/problems do the stories contain that I don't know about.

I think that I may post one for comments over on the SYW forum, I don't know.

I won't give up, but, I need to find direction. I'm jumping around, (in my writing mind), with unbridled enthusiasm, and grasping at imaginary goals.

[DamaNegra]

How short can a short story be? I'm asking because for an assignment to my Classics of Literature class, I had to analyze a short story. This is the short story I had to analyze:

There was once an invisible man, but no one realized it.

The end. Does that classify as a short story? Can stories really be that short? I mean, I know about flash fiction, but isn't that too short?

[Dru]

With regards to the two batches already sent in, is this highly accelerated from a normal year? In other words, how many 'batches' does it generally take to fill the class?

The reason I ask was that I had planned to submit prior to March 1, which is when you said you first typically get your initial batch of submissions. I don't want to miss the boat if any shot I might have will be gone by that point. I'd like some feedback from a beta-friend, but will submit earlier if my chances would be better sooner rather than later.

With respect the the outline or synopsis, that is the "imagine you are telling your best friend" outline/synopsis, correct? Should the synopsis cover the entire piece or just the content being submitted for the workshop? I know that sounds a bit silly to ask, but I wanted to make sure I didn't deliver something shorter than what was being asked.

Dru, workshop novice

[James D. Macdonald]

A synopsis covers the entire piece, beginning, middle, and end.

This rate of submission for VP is a bit quicker than usual, but may just mean that the staff is more efficient this year than in years past. We always hold open a couple of spots to the very end, just in case something Super Fantastic comes in on the last day.

As to how short a short story can be: My shortest ever sold was four words.

It was to Two-Fisted Writer Tales, the companion volume to Swashbuckling Editor Stories. The guidelines said "Four to four thousand words." So I wrote a four-word one, and got accepted. The editor agreed to buy me a Coke as payment. Alas, the book was never published. Such things happen.

The story, in full, read:

Writer: "Fist, fist!"

Thwack.

I haven't found a market to re-sell it to.

[James D. Macdonald]

Speaking of short stories, what they are, how they function:

The king died then the queen died

isn't a story.

The king died then the queen died of a broken heart

is.

[Ken Schneider]

You want an example Take Ted Chiang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Chiang).

He writes well, and that is why he garnered the accolades— regardless of length.

Lesson learned: Write well and succeed.

[DamaNegra]

I've got a question about pennames.

If I decide to write a novel under a penname, that penname would be Jose Pablo + my last name. Does it matter that I use a male name when I'm a woman? Or as long as I don't do any book signings or appear in public I'm okay?

[James D. Macdonald]

Pen names? You can be any gender at all for a pen name. Male to female and female to male are so common....

[DamaNegra]

Well, I figured that if readers read a book by Johnatan and then they saw that Johnatan was really Elise, well they might be confused or something. I didn't know it was that common.

[Ashling]

Hi everyone! I hope I'm posting in the right place. This thread comes within shouting distance of my question.

Jim--I'm filling out an application for an arts council grant & trying to use succinct and vibrant words to describe the members of one of the writers groups I formed. In your experience is the term "professional" writers used only to describe writers earning a full-time living from writing?

Or do most people in the writing industry also use it to describe "serious" writers who are steadily working towards that full-time pay goal? The writers in my group write 3 to 7 days a week, read every day, attend writers workshops, belong to several writers groups, enter literary competitions & submit work to magazines and literary agents.

Most of us have earned some writing income over the past two or three years. The one that hasn't earned anything yet works a full-time "day job" while agent hunting and writing novel number 2.

Thanks!
Ashling

[Ken Schneider]

I am not U.J, of course, though, I pester him so much one might think I'm his younger brother.

If you write professional quality work. One is a professional writer when their work is being accepted based on its quality and merit as viewed by publishers.

Jim told me that, or something darned close to it.

[Berry]

Yeah. If you write high quality work that matches the requirements, turn it on on or before the deadline, and get paid for it, you're a professional.

Whether it's fiction, technical writing, poetry, ad copy or whatever.