Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1 [Archive] - Page 19

scribbler1382

07-04-2005, 03:27 AM

Thank you.:Sun:
I have lists of things like this when I'm editing. I have my own pet words that I overuse, and a list of phrases and types of words that weaken my writing. I use find and replace to zap them if they can't justify their existance.

Me too, TIA. Here's a list I found on a blog recently (with a slight edit):

Orwell's Rules
Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.
Never use a long word where a short one will do.
If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.
Never use the passive where you can use the active.
Never use a foreign phrase, scientific word, or jargon if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.
Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.

Orwell's Questions
What am I trying to say?
What words will express it?
What image or idiom will make it clearer?
Is this image fresh enough to have an effect?
Could I put it more shortly?
Have I said anything that is avoidably ugly?

Strunk and White: Principles Of Composition
Choose a suitable design
Use the active voice
Put statements in positive form
Use definite, specific, concrete language
Omit needless words
Place yourself in the background
Write naturally
Write with nouns and verbs
Revise and rewrite
Do not overwrite
Avoid qualifiers
Do not affect a breezy manner
Use orthodox spelling
Do not explain too much
Do not construct awkward adverbs
Avoid fancy words
Avoid dialect
Avoid mixing languages
Prefer the standard to the offbeat

Evil Passive Verbs:
is, am, are, was, were, be, being, been, I'm,
it's, he's, here's, she's, that's, there's, they're,
we're, what's, who's, you're

Heinlein's Rules
You Must Write
Finish What You Start
You Must Refrain From Rewriting, Except to Editorial Order
You Must Put Your Story on the Market
You Must Keep it on the Market until it has Sold
Start Working on Something Else

Evil Metaphors and Phrases
on steroids
think outside the box
longpole in the tent
stove pipe
the long and short of it is
the fact (of the matter) is
reinvent the wheel
open a can of worms
talk off line
herding cats
same sheet of music
at the end of the day
to be honest with you
on a weekly basis
touch base
building bridges
teach how to fish
keep the plates spinning
run it up the flag pole
sooner rather than later
lessons learned
synergy
zero tolerance
self licking ice cream cone
not ready for prime time
showstopper
barking up the wrong tree
holding feet to the fire
the cart before the horse
goat rope
ground truth
devil is in the details
break down barriers
food fight
bear fruit
sense of urgency
dog in the fight
with all due respect
utilize (prefer use)
low hanging fruit
slippery slope
straw man
work in a vacuum
grease the skids
let a thousand flowers bloom
red herring
leaning forward in the saddle
ahead of the curve
crawl, walk, run
cookie cutter

James D. Macdonald

07-04-2005, 05:30 AM

I am suddenly filled with the desire to write a story that incorporates every one of those evil metaphors and phrases. This could be particulalry amusing if at least one word in each phrase was being used in a different way than usual. "Dog" as a verb. "Pole" as a gentleman from Poland. And so on.

Euan H.

07-04-2005, 05:36 AM

I am suddenly filled with the desire to write a story that incorporates every one of those evil metaphors and phrases. .
Please do (as a demo for us), but with everything in the story in the same sequence as in the post.

alanna

07-04-2005, 05:46 AM

oooooooh...a challenge! Uncle Jim, puh-leeeeeeeeeeease? ::bats eyes:: we'll be good for ever and ever if you do!!!

alanna

07-04-2005, 06:47 AM

::sigh:: sorry about the earlier post. It is the result of spending the entire day listening to my brothers- one who is two, the other who's six. You all get the picture, I'm sure.

Now, UJ, I have a question. I know it's been covered before on this forum- I actually did a search. However, the results that showed up were so diverse I'm not sure which is the "right" answer. So, I'm going to ask you.

How long is an average YA novel? I've gotten answers that range from 20,000 to 110,000. I agree that the story should take as long as it needs to, but I am wondering what the standard is, from a "I really want to know what the publishers prefer generally" viewpoint. Any ideas? (This question isn't just for UJ by the way, all of you feel free to chime in! lol, not that you wouldn't anyway.) thanks so much! :)

James D. Macdonald

07-04-2005, 06:54 AM

The average YA novel?

Beats heck out of me. Probably 40K-60K.

Check the particular publisher's guidelines.

SeanDSchaffer

07-04-2005, 10:26 AM

Everyone else, of course, is welcome to answer it. That's what forums like this are for.

I have a manuscript that I like very much, but have never completely finished to my liking. It's an older project than my original book that took me 17 years to complete. (I believe I began it in 1987, although it may have been the year before; I'm not certain.)

I am afraid to try to finish this work, because I don't know if readers will want to read it.

My question: Should I finish it anyway and send it out? I love the story to death, and definitely think it has potential. But I began it when I was a teenager, and the certainty just is not there.

I know Uncle Jim has stated in the past that I should write what I want to. But I worry somehow that editors will laugh at the work. What ought I to do?

Thank you for any help you can give me.

reph

07-04-2005, 10:53 AM

I am afraid to try to finish this work, because I don't know if readers will want to read it.

My question: Should I finish it anyway and send it out?
One never knows whether readers will want a particular story. Having started it when young is no reason to decide against it. If you feel that your younger self wasn't competent to work without adult supervision, have your older (i.e., current) self revise it. If you don't trust him, either, you can put a sliver in Share Your Work to collect opinions from the rest of us. We're all expert judges who can predict readers' tastes much better than you can. (No, even I don't believe that last bit.)

ted_curtis

07-04-2005, 12:31 PM

How long is an average YA novel? I've gotten answers that range from 20,000 to 110,000. I agree that the story should take as long as it needs to, but I am wondering what the standard is, from a "I really want to know what the publishers prefer generally" viewpoint. Any ideas? (This question isn't just for UJ by the way, all of you feel free to chime in! lol, not that you wouldn't anyway.) thanks so much! :)

Flipping though my 2005 Children's Writer's & Illustrator's Market, I found the ranges varied from 30,000 to 65,000 with 40,000 a rough average. Of course, a good story trumps all.

If you don't have the Market guide, I'd recommend buying one. While you're at it, you should also check out the SCBWI (Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators) website www.scbwi.org (http://www.scbwi.org) which has some great information.

Ted

Christine N.

07-04-2005, 03:59 PM

40-60K is the average word count, and you should probably try to stick to it for a first novel. Aim for 50. I think Talisman (see below) comes in at like 49 or something, but it's a middle grade book.

Children are reading longer and longer books these days, especially girls (this from my aunt who is a media specialist). And YA is really ages 13-17, so there's a pretty wide range. If you're aiming for the 13-15 crowd, your book might be a little shorter than if for the 16-17/18 crowd.

Do you follow that?? LOL. Write the story, see how long it is.

scribbler1382

07-04-2005, 04:06 PM

It's an older project than my original book that took me 17 years to complete.
I am afraid to try to finish this work, because I don't know if readers will want to read it.

My question: Should I finish it anyway and send it out?

17 years?! Aye, Carumba.

I'd suggest letting your readers decide if they want to read it or not. But if you're unsure of its merits, finish it and get a handful of beta readers to take a look at it. Make changes as you see fit, and then send it out. The "machine" will do the rest while you're working on your next book.

James D. Macdonald

07-04-2005, 05:28 PM

Sean, finish it. After that, while you're starting your next book, you can decide whether it belongs in your closet or the mailbox.

I'm a believer in finishing works. How else do you learn how to write endings?

aruna

07-04-2005, 05:34 PM

Can't say I agree with this of Heinlein's rules:

You Must Refrain From Rewriting, Except to Editorial Order

James D. Macdonald

07-04-2005, 05:53 PM

Can't say I agree with this of Heinlein's rules:
You Must Refrain From Rewriting, Except to Editorial Order

He's talking about after you send it out. How many times have you run into people who rewrite a piece every time they get a rejection slip? Too many times, right?

After you've sent out a work, forget it. Every time it comes back, send it out again the same day. The only time you should rewrite is if someone says "I'll buy this if you make the following changes...." Otherwise work on your next book.

alanna

07-04-2005, 06:15 PM

Thanks you guys! I'm at about 40k right now, and I think the novel will probably wrap up itself at 55-60 k, so knowing that I'm in the right range really makes me feel a lot better. :)

Roger J Carlson

07-04-2005, 06:19 PM

He's talking about after you send it out. How many times have you run into people who rewrite a piece every time they get a rejection slip? Too many times, right?

After you've sent out a work, forget it. Every time it comes back, send it out again the same day. The only time you should rewrite is if someone says "I'll buy this if you make the following changes...." Otherwise work on your next book.I usually follow this advice, but one editor rejected my book with the comment that the protagonist was too passive and reactive. He suggested I make him more dynamic and proactive (but did not offer to re-read it if I did). I looked the story over, decided it was true and made some changes. For the better, I think.

An agent suggested that adding a girl character might make the YA novel have wider appeal. I looked the story over, decide one male character could be substituted with a female character, so I did. (I actually substituted a different character that was female rather than just making my male character female. That wouldn't have worked in the context of the book.)

On the other hand, a different agent rejected it because he couldn't tell what the main conflict was by page 50 (the "all important" page 50, he said). I decided that having thus-and-so happen by a certain page was too formulaic and didn't change it.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you get specific suggestions, you should weigh the advice and at least consider re-writing.

James D. Macdonald

07-04-2005, 06:28 PM

I figure that if they aren't willing to back up their suggestions with their checkbook that they're just one more opinion and my opinion trumps theirs.

Roger J Carlson

07-04-2005, 06:35 PM

I figure that if they aren't willing to back up their suggestions with their checkbook that they're just one more opinion and my opinion trumps theirs.I don't doubt that in your case that's true. You've proven you're publishable. I have not, as yet, and I'm not confident enough in my writing ability to simply dismiss an editor's comment. Although, I do weigh the opinion and make my own decision.

scribbler1382

07-04-2005, 07:19 PM

One editor: one opinion. One writer: one opinion. It's up to you who wins the stalemate.

I'd really ease up on the post-submission changes, though, if it were me. By the time the sixth or seventh agent/editor/publisher gets a crack at it, they won't even be reading the same story/book.

My view is, if you get ten responses, and seven of them say "don't start your story with It was a dark and stormy night", then MAYBE you should listen. Ideally, your changes were made through your beta readers before you sent it out for the first time.

J. Y. Moore

07-04-2005, 07:31 PM

Me too, TIA. Here's a list I found on a blog recently (with a slight edit):

Orwell's Rules
Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.

I suppose I'm the dunce in the class but I didn't understand this one.

scribbler1382

07-04-2005, 08:19 PM

It's open to interpretation, but I took it as meaning be aware of your time and context.

alanna

07-04-2005, 09:25 PM

JMO, but I thought it meant be true to what your story needed. If the rules need to be broken, then break them, rather than write something that doesn't stay true to the story. Or, break them if there is no other way to convey what you mean. Just don't break them for every little thing. I think what Scribbler said is valid as well.

DreamWeaver

07-04-2005, 10:50 PM

I suppose I'm the dunce in the class but I didn't understand this one.My take was, just because there is a rule that says not to end a sentence with a preposition, you should break that rule rather than write something that sounds terrible. For instance, you wouldn't change that's something I won't put up with to that is something up with which I will not put. (My thanks to Winston Churchill for the example.)

Kris

scribbler1382

07-04-2005, 11:16 PM

My take was, just because there is a rule that says not to end a sentence with a preposition, you should break that rule rather than write something that sounds terrible. For instance, you wouldn't change that's something I won't put up with to that is something up with which I will not put. (My thanks to Winston Churchill for the example.)

Kris

Nice Yoda impression. :scared:

And I think we've proved that Orwell's sixth rule should have listened to his second rule.

SeanDSchaffer

07-04-2005, 11:19 PM

Thank you kindly. I will finish the book and see if publishers like it or not. :idea:

Scribbler:
Real quickly, if I may, but I think you misunderstood me on how old my work is. I think it might be my own fault because my statement of the work's age was a bit confusing. When I said my work was older than my previous one that was 17 years old, I meant that the ms I'm working on now is older than 17 years.

The 17-year-old work was printed by PublishAmerica last year. The ms I was talking about in my previous post, in fact, was started in '86 or '87, making it to date at least 18 (if not 19) years old.

This ms is, in fact, the second work I ever wrote all the way through on the first draft. For this reason, it's very special to me. Of course, it was not publishable (in my opinion) when I finished the first draft, because of its diminutive length and overabundance of exclamation points. Also the large amount of phrases written in all-CAPS did not inspire me, either. I have since learned a lot in the writing field. But unfortunately, unless you consider PublishAmerica to be a legitimate publishing company--which I do not--I really have no experience in the publishing end of the business I've chosen as my career. This is why I am so thankful to all of you who have responded to my question. You all have given me the courage to finish my work and eventually send it to a publisher.

Thanks again, everyone. :)

Sean D. Schaffer

BenMears

07-05-2005, 07:52 AM

I know Uncle Jim has stated in the past that I should write what I want to. But I worry somehow that editors will laugh at the work. What ought I to do?

Thank you for any help you can give me.

I'd say, listen to your Uncle. Maybe editors will laugh. I expect they probably laugh at all of us at times. So what? First and foremost, you have to write to please yourself. If you can do that, in all honesty, you can please a lot of other people, too. But if you deliberately short-circuit your own instincts because of what someone else might think, you will end up pleasing no one.

Good luck.

Lenora Rose

07-05-2005, 08:20 AM

Thank you kindly. I will finish the book and see if publishers like it or not.

...

This ms is, in fact, the second work I ever wrote all the way through on the first draft. For this reason, it's very special to me. Of course, it was not publishable (in my opinion) when I finished the first draft, because of its diminutive length and overabundance of exclamation points. Also the large amount of phrases written in all-CAPS did not inspire me, either. I have since learned a lot in the writing field.

I have some stories like that. The teenage enthusiasm and the lack of ability (In my case, a startling number of my early drafts have people doing things for no obvious reason, then encountering something that gives them the motivation to do what they've already done.) but underneath, a story that could be redone into something solid. Some are on the back burner until I figure out how to deal with them. Two, with near identical plots, I need to figure out which character works better for capturing theme, and ruthlessly murder the other story. One I thought I was rewriting, but the characters and themes and plot have all changed so much it's actually raised an old conundrum: if you've replaced every single part in a car, one piece at a time, is it still the original car when you're done?

I also do remind myself of the term "turd-polishing". There are more polite versions of the term, but for the life of me I can't remember them. It means trying to salvage a work broken past repair due to sentimental attachment, rather than looking at it with a critical eye.

It's a narrow judgement call between a good story ruined by inability to write, and an irredeemable story being constantly worked over and worked over. Some of my teenage ideas are also left in the bottom of the trunk, their pencil marks slowly going less and less intelligible, and good riddance.

Don't dismiss your old ideas just because they're old. On the other hand, don't love them just for that, either. You can miss cool new ideas and new characters.

Sailor Kenshin

07-05-2005, 05:27 PM

Dreamweaver's avatar looks just like my late kitty Puffin! http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/cwm/3dlil/cry.gif

James D. Macdonald

07-05-2005, 07:42 PM

Orwell's rule

Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.

is similar in intent to Rule 2 of COLREGS 1972 (International Rules For Preventing Collision At Sea, aka the Rules of the Road):

Rule 2 Responsibility
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

That's the General Prudential Rule or the Rule of Good Seamanship: You should follow the rules at all times, unless following the rules would result in a collision; at that time you are required to break the rules.

The rules of writing are all very well and will keep you out of trouble most of the time, but you'll break those rules if you must to avoid the literary equivalent of a collision at sea.

Nangleator

07-05-2005, 11:34 PM

...You should follow the rules at all times, unless following the rules would result in a collision; at that time you are required to break the rules.
The Federal Aviation Regulations has a similar clause.

91.3 (b) In an emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this Subpart or of Subpart B to the extent required to meet that emergency.

Flying, commanding a ship and writing a novel: Three of the last activities where authority is commensurate with responsibility.

AnneMarble

07-05-2005, 11:57 PM

I also do remind myself of the term "turd-polishing". There are more polite versions of the term, but for the life of me I can't remember them. It means trying to salvage a work broken past repair due to sentimental attachment, rather than looking at it with a critical eye.
I love that term. :D

This weekend, I reread -- for the first time in years -- the unfinished second draft of the SF novel I wrote in college. I wrote the first draft my sophomore year, and I now understand the meaning of the term "sophomoric." ;) The heroine was an interstellar peacemaker who was supposed to be unbiased and understanding, but she came across as pathologically, not to mention preachy and grouchy. I swear, she looked just like this --> :Lecture: The hero (her lover) was a little better, except when he got jealous and annoyed because she had to (gasp) do things related to being a peacemaker instead of going to dinner with him. The sort of... anti-villain..., who, I always remembered as being arrogant in a sexy way, came across as a whiny child.

Aaargh! What happened to the wonderful story I once wrote? If I didn't know any better, I would swear that when I wasn't looking, someone came in and rewrote all my files. :wag:

I would love to rewrite this story, but after what I've read, I may very well make the peacemaker into the villain... Ahem! OK, maybe I won't go that far, but I will definitely do major surgery. I might simply rewrite it from scratch to avoid all my writerly thingies from the past.

Sharon Mock

07-06-2005, 01:12 AM

I do not read the "novel" (30,000 words) I wrote in college. I do not allow other people to read it. I don't let my husband read it. If I could go back and erase the minds of everybody who read it as a work in progress, I'd do so.

At least it was a valuable learning experience -- it taught me so many things not to do!

(The novel I wrote just out of college came out much better, though not salvagable. I'm going to pluck one or two of the characters out of it and give them a story of their own.)

allenparker

07-06-2005, 05:56 PM

to write those older novels that everyone has stuffed in a drawer. It is a growing process. We all had to write the first novel, persevere to the end, and see a work in print.

For the 6 billion people on this planet, only a fraction will have the mental thoughts to create a story. Fewer will place their backsides in a chair and begin to make this creation appear on paper.

Of this small group, fewer will finish the task. Although I do not know of any statistics to back this up, I believe that , for every finished novel, there is ten times as many that were started and left to die alone.

The difference, I believe, is that we finished our novels. We persevered the storms of other tasks that begged for our time and completed the wretched thing. Then we move on to another.

My first was a murder/mystery set in Richmond, Virginia. As a strange aside, the basis of the story became reality twenty years later.

Allen
< My advice is still worth what you paid for it. Sell the advice and get your money back.>

kaku

07-06-2005, 06:09 PM

Gentleman Jim:

I'm struggling with the actual process of transforming my characters from the bios I've created to the printed page. Some of my readers tell me I'm writing from too much of a distance. They are having difficulty getting into the characters. I get the impression they understand the thoughts, conflicts, etc. My phrase and word choices must be keeping the reader at arms length.

Can you provide some examples of how I can bring my readers closer? Things that draw the reader into the charcter's head and help them to feel like they are a part of the story. I'd appreciate any insight you can provide.

Respectfully.

Kaku

Andrew Jameson

07-06-2005, 07:39 PM

kaku -- Would you feel comfortable posting a short excerpt (either here, or in "Share Your Work", with a link) of your own writing where you felt the point of view was relatively up-close, but your readers felt the distance was too great?

I ask because I can think of a half-dozen things you could be doing, unconsciously, that would artificially increase the distance between the reader and the character. If that were the case, pointing out a few examples of what not to do in your own writing might be useful.

Sailor Kenshin

07-06-2005, 09:42 PM

I started reading Eragon. Or trying to.

Story may trump everything, but I need the microwriting to go with it.

Paul J. Andrew

07-06-2005, 10:25 PM

I've finished Eragon. There is definitely a reason it sits in the YA section at Target. I didn't think it was bad, in fact I admire the kid who wrote it, but it isn't as heavy as some of the other fantasy I've read.

James D. Macdonald

07-06-2005, 11:58 PM

Can you provide some examples of how I can bring my readers closer?

Not easily. I'd suggest you go to your bookshelf and analyse how other writers have done the trick in book-length works.

(One possiblity -- give them something they want that isn't directly tied to the plot of the book, but is tied to the theme.)

Sailor Kenshin

07-07-2005, 12:02 AM

Paul J. Andrew

07-07-2005, 12:07 AM

I didn't mean to imply that it did. I meant that as I was reading it I often found myself thinking it was too easy to read. It wasn't until after I finished it that I knew it was YA. My wife bought it for me because she knows I dig fantasy and she liked the cover (which I thought was horrible, go figure).

ted_curtis

07-07-2005, 06:57 AM

Paul J. Andrew

07-07-2005, 10:48 AM

jdparadise

07-08-2005, 01:47 AM

I'm struggling with the actual process of transforming my characters from the bios I've created to the printed page. Some of my readers tell me I'm writing from too much of a distance. They are having difficulty getting into the characters.

...

Can you provide some examples of how I can bring my readers closer? Things that draw the reader into the charcter's head and help them to feel like they are a part of the story. I'd appreciate any insight you can provide.

Not Jim, but I'll see if I can help.

The goal as I understand it, in character-centered fiction, is usually to make the reader empathize with the MC--to make the reader want what the MC wants. The character, in most cases, must be "real" to the reader to give the writer a chance to accomplish this.

In the LOTR movie, did you sympathize more with Frodo, Aragorn, or Gandalf?

I think most viewers sympathized with Frodo. He struggled with enemies both inside and out; his conflict threatened to not only kill him but absolutely destroy him. Aragorn and Gandalf both struggled mostly with external enemies, though Aragorn's struggles did have a bit of an internal component. But the worst that could have happened to them, personally, would have been death. Frodo faced something much worse.

So it seems clear to me that risking the character's soul is as important as risking his skin. And risking a character's soul is one way to make him seem "real" to the reader.

Now, plenty of authors succeed quite well in telling wonderfully engaging stories where the MC's soul is not at risk; it's certainly not a requirement. But it's a way to engage the reader.

Another way to build reader empathy is to show the character in (plot- and/or theme-related) situations where he's at a disadvantage for whatever reason; if it can be worked out that he's at a disadvantage because of his own inherent properties, so much the better. At the beginning of Lois Bujold's Curse of Chalion, Cazaril has been beaten and battered by circumstance--caused by his faithful service, as it turns out--to the point where someone offering him the simple kindness of a blanket moves him almost to tears. This, to me as a reader, made him extremely empathizeable... the corrolary to this approach, however, is not to make him weak in every direction. Cazaril has a backbone, and a sense of humor, and he has a toughness to him that's evident from the first lines. But he's waaaaay down at the start of the book; that toughness has been pushed almost to the breaking point.

Again, you don't have to do this. But you can.

Giving a character a genuine sense of humor helps. People like people who they can laugh with.

Making him the butt of everyone else's jokes also works; file it under the 'disadvantage' category above. Again, the character can't be completely hapless, or the reader will scorn him, too.

Give her something that readers will go to bed thinking about. Chances are, it won't be her stunning red hair--it'll be her insight, her wit, her abilities, her flaws, the tragedy she couldn't prevent that haunts her to this day.

Mostly, make it evident that the character is a person, not a placeholder for a plot point. Put him in places where his weak points are brought into sharp focus, and where he can use his strength to overcome them.

Some thoughts. Hope they're useful.

-j

James D. Macdonald

07-08-2005, 10:43 AM

It may be that going from a bio to a character is dry, and the bios themselves are flawed.

Try writing the book, then write the characters' bios from the people they turned out to be -- then use those to go back and ensure consistency.

loquax

07-09-2005, 06:10 PM

Would you recommend writing bios, then? Or would it only be for people used to using them?

James D. Macdonald

07-10-2005, 01:58 AM

Use bios if they work for you. Otherwise don't.

Some people cast horoscopes for their characters. Other read Tarot cards. Myself, I take filecards (one per character) and write details about the character on 'em as I learn more about the person in the writing of the book.

Patricia

07-10-2005, 02:16 AM

The file card system, for me, has proven to be a very simple and uncomplicated way to keep track of character traits and the importance of that character to re-surface later in the plot. This is especially true when wanting to make sure names are not confused.

I am in the process now of reading a major publishers release that confused the sheriff and sheriff deputy's names. Which caused confusion in the dialog sentence structure -- making it necessary to re-read the sentence over a couple of times to get the drift of the statement. This example reinforced my belief that the file card format is a helpful tool.

However, I have an idea that the above may have been an oversight on every ones part, since the two names were introduced in the same chapter and paragraph. The author of this particular book does have a habit of introducing too many characters in close context, causing re-reading several times to keep track. It has caused me to analyze my own style to make sure I do not do the same thing.

arodriguez

07-11-2005, 02:42 PM

I mean there wasn't anything in it that challenged me as a reader. I like it every now and then when a book throws me a curve with a few words I don't know or something to effect. For example, I rather enjoyed reading the Chronicle of Thomas Covenant by Stephen Donaldson because he uses a lot of words that your average fourth grader doesn't know. Granted, he occasionally frustrated me because he would use two or three of them in one paragraph, but I always thought reading should be a learning experience and I didn't feel like I got anything out of that book that I hadn't seen somewhere before. Just my opinion.

I have a serious problem with this. One of my pet peeves, and im sure others share it, is IMMERSION. the last thing i need in a book is to have to grab a dictionary every few pages in the middle of a gripping story. Sure, its great to increase your vocabulary, but at the cost of breaking your flow in the book?
I dont like to be distracted as a reader. usually when i come across words that im unfamiliar with i simply infer the meaning by the use in context. If i cant, i skip over it. Why waste the time then? If the story is good enough, ill read it again sometime and then take the time to learn the meaning of that slippery word.
I think the real challenge for the writer is pushing the reader's imagination, letting one envision the scene while keeping them hungry for the next word. Granted noone wants to read books on a sixth grade level, but clear simple writing will shine with a great story.

James D. Macdonald

07-11-2005, 06:21 PM

What vocabularly is appropriate -- and which words your readers do know, should know, or ought to know -- are a cursed subject.

There's been a long-standing joke about finding and stealing Stephen R. Donaldson's dictionary.

Some authors (Lord Dunsany, for example) deliberately use archaic words. (This has been going on for a thousand years at least -- one of the early Arthurian works uses only words of Anglo-saxon origin rather than French.)

The meaning of a word should be reinforced by context. Nothing relieves you of the obligation to choose the right word with the exact meaning you intend.

Sean Bosker

07-11-2005, 06:34 PM

The New York Times Book Review had an essay in the back about reading and the author put it quite well for me: "Whether we're reading a novel, a biography, or for that matter, a book about orchids, we seek an elusive combination of pleasure, utility, and intellectual stimulation, something to pique our curiousity and engage our minds."

That's true for me, and I think what constitutes a good balance of the above is personal, which is why there are so many novels, genres, and non-fiction books out there.

scribbler1382

07-11-2005, 09:07 PM

Myself, I take filecards (one per character) and write details about the character on 'em as I learn more about the person in the writing of the book.

I like this as a concept, but those have gotta be some big-*** cards or some Lilliputian penmanship. :)

James D. Macdonald

07-13-2005, 08:20 AM

You use as many filecards per character as necessary.

scribbler1382

07-13-2005, 08:47 AM

:Smack: D-oh! That's why you get the big bucks. :)

jlawrenceperry

07-14-2005, 07:19 PM

As I plot my next project, I have been writing out their bios sort of as an attempt at backstory, first in a notebook, then transferred all of them to a Word file. I have to be largely paperless or else I would not survive with three children! Plus the whole "taking everything with me" thing doesn't work without my USB drive.

Anyway, as I was writing their bios, I found I was actually writing the story itself. So I am certain that as I begin writing and the story evolves, then my characters will evolve. The Bios will be disposed of as soon as the stories are written. It has been an extraordinary organizational tool for me. Plus, since I generally stick with third-person focused, it helps keep the POV's in their own little world. The individual motivations become clear.

J. Y. Moore

07-14-2005, 07:52 PM

I, too, use a separate Word file for character bios and notes on inspirational musings. I can have the file open at the same time as my ms file and refer to it as needed for consistency.

Another tool I use is a small digital recorder that I keep in my van. Works great for those lightbulb things that happen as I drive down the road.

J. Y. (Jean) Moore

scribbler1382

07-14-2005, 08:54 PM

Another tool I use is a small digital recorder that I keep in my van. Works great for those lightbulb things that happen as I drive down the road.

I have one of those, too, but I rarely use it. Most of the time I just use my cell phone to call home and leave the idea on my voicemail.

loquax

07-14-2005, 10:05 PM

I tend to use my memory. That way if I forget an idea, I'll know that my subconscious didn't think much of it.

James D. Macdonald

07-14-2005, 10:50 PM

A good thread, recently dredged from the depths in the Bewares Board: Agents Charging Fees (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=978&page=1&pp=25)

popmuze

07-14-2005, 11:13 PM

Jim,

Forgive me for not boning up on the previous 4569 or so posts, but I am reading this at my day job. Writing, these days, is my night job. That beng said, what would be the next step in my recent cycle of continuously rewriting my novel (first for adults; I've published 12 other books, and three YA novels).
Admittedly, I love rewriting and sometimes feel I've just scratched the surface of my novel's potential (after a mere two years). But at other times I wonder if I have the ability at this point to really know how to identify and/or confront the main problems of the book.
Two editors who've read portions had some nice things to say before rejecting it. I'm not sure how much they read, but one had a problem with the voice, the other with the plot. Does that mean the book is doomed.
Is this where a Beta reader should step in? But I'm reluctant to approach even published friends with such a monumental task.

James D. Macdonald

07-14-2005, 11:43 PM

If you haven't had a beta reader (someone who can be brutally honest) read your book, yes, now's the time.

And, after two years of rewriting, now might be the time to start your next book.

I congratulate you on your earlier publication. All you really need is to work on the slightly different skillset you'll need for novels intended for adults. I wouldn't neglect YA while all this is going on, though.

popmuze

07-15-2005, 02:33 AM

Jim,

I remember reading somewhere or maybe I'm making it up that the first draft is just to get it all out, the second is for voice, the third character, the fourth plot, etc. So I could just be getting started!

Actually, I spent a year on the first draft of 120,000 words. Then I spent almost a year waiting for my agent to respond and send it around. He finally sent it to a grand total of one place before I took it back. In the interim I published a collection of interviews and have a second edition of a reference book I did in 1997 coming out this summer. In the last few months I've trimmed it to under 100,000 words. But I keep finding new and fascinating areas to explore.

To me, anyway, rewriting is the best part. After that it's sending it around, getting rejections, insufficient advances, inadequate promotion, reviewers who don't get it, friends who only want free copies, etc.

As far as YA, I think I was probably ahead of my time (these were done around 1980, when I was probably 9 years old myself). I'd love to see a couple of them reprinted.
But I do think a Beta reader would be a godsend.

James D. Macdonald

07-15-2005, 06:49 AM

Those YAs -- I presume they've reverted? Did they have decent sales figures?

popmuze

07-15-2005, 08:16 AM

Jim,
I wish there were some way I could get on bookscan and see some sales figures. Who can figure out royalty statements?
The first book got a great review in the Horn Book and a paperback sale. The second got a great review in Kirkus and made a Library Best of the Year List.
One reviewer said of the third that my likely audience was "literate, sophisticated and cynical 16-20 year olds," which I thought was probably right. I'll bet there are a lot more of them these days.
My original editor (only on the first book) was Melanie Kroupa, who has her own line of books at Farrar Strauss now.

James D. Macdonald

07-15-2005, 09:52 AM

My original editor (only on the first book) was Melanie Kroupa, who has her own line of books at Farrar Strauss now.

Are you agented?

This might be time to get in touch with Ms. Kroupa (assuming you had a decent relationship with her).

popmuze

07-15-2005, 06:07 PM

We had a good relationship. She was the one left me after all (as have all of my previous editors and all but one of my previous agents. Luckily my wife has stood by me...)I do have an agent at this point, who has been avoiding my fiction like the plague but has had success with my non-fiction.
Are you saying that Ms Kroupa might
A) read my adult fiction
B) Get Farrar Strauss to reprint my YA titles
C) Be good to approach with a new YA idea.

By the way, all those "literate, sophisticated and cynical 16-20 year olds" would now be 41-45 and the perfect age to enjoy my new fiction!

James D. Macdonald

07-15-2005, 06:40 PM

See if she's interested in reprint rights.

Ken Schneider

07-16-2005, 08:49 PM

Uncle Jim, I've run into a bit of a problem since I've finished my current WP.

When finished, a better idea for storyline and plot for this book popped into my mind.

The two original ideas I put together for the plot line were good. I finished the book and a new plot that I thought would be much better for the storyline came to mind. The ending jiggled it to the fore. I thought, wow, this would be so much better if I were to follow this new plot to reach the same ending.

What are your thoughts on the above?

1. Re-write what I have and keep the same plot?

2. Re-write with the new plot?

3. Write a new book with the same premise and the new plot?

4. Other?

Thanks, Ken

James D. Macdonald

07-16-2005, 10:31 PM

If I were in your position, Ken, I'd write a new, better, different book. That is to say, choice 3.

Meanwhile:

Fame, sweet fame!

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/blogspotting/archives/2005/07/out_of_the_dark.html

Sorta. I'm almost kinda mentioned by BusinessWeek. Now to see if maybe next time they'll spell my name right.

Ken Schneider

07-17-2005, 12:26 AM

If I were in your position, Ken, I'd write a new, better, different book. That is to say, choice 3.

Meanwhile:

Fame, sweet fame!

Sorta. I'm almost kinda mentioned by BusinessWeek. Now to see if maybe next time they'll spell my name right.

I thought you might say that. I felt the same but wondered what others may have done when confronted with this conundrum.

I've already started. The nice thing about it is I can pull scenes from the previous work and insert them in the new story.

The realization of this new storyline's evolution will make a better book.
It also gives me clear, more defined direction to the story.

Good for you on the mention, Jim. I hope it reaps beneifits.

Ken

jules

07-17-2005, 01:05 AM

It's something I've done before: take a novel that I'm not happy with, use its major plot points as the starting points for an outline for an entirely new novel and see what happens. Improved it a lot.

Pencilone

07-22-2005, 03:28 PM

Roger J Carlson

07-22-2005, 04:44 PM

How do you guys go about reviewing and revising your novel?

At what point to you give it to a betta reader? (Have you ever given just the chapter-by-chapter synopsis/outline to a betta reader? Or do you think that is a spoiler and takes away the gist from reading the whole novel)

Is it any way to ensure that an idea is good enough to be exploited in a novel? (Yeah, probably you'd say the idea does not count as much, as with the same idea one could write a good novel, while someone else could write a bad one) Stilll we have to make decisions with regard to the priority of ideas: which to keep and which to discard...

Thanks,
PenciloneI give my manuscript to a beta reader only after I am sure it is as good as I can make it. After I get it back, I usually discover how wrong I was! I don't give a chapter-by-chapter outline (or even talk about it), because I want the beta reader to be surprised (or confused) just like any reader would be. One of the problems with editing your own work is that you know what the words are supposed to say rather than what they actually say. Giving any sort of heads-up, handicaps them in the same way.

James D. Macdonald

07-23-2005, 08:25 PM

Rather than saying "beta reader" say "focus group" or "test audience" if it helps explain the concept better.

The question is "Yes, but does the novel work?" You'll know it's working when the beta readers start handing copies to their friends and begging you for more.

A high bar? Sure. Publishing in general has a high bar.

There's a discussion happening right now in the Children's board here at AW about the Delacourt contest (for first YA novels). Some folks won't submit because some years Delacourt doesn't select anyone at all. (There's no entry fee, BTW -- it's a chance to have your book read even if you don't have an agent.)

I find it entirely reasonable that some years they don't find any manuscripts that meet their needs. That isn't to say the books are crap -- only that they don't meet that publisher's needs.

Pencilone

07-24-2005, 01:40 AM

Thanks, uncle Jim and Roger:) .

I'd love to take part in the Delacorte contest, and the only thing that bothers me is that it's only for residents from USA and Canada. Do you think they would mind too much if I post it to one of my friends from US, who could post it to them? Would that be cheating? If they really like the book they should not care that I'm from the UK...:hi:

toastyreward

07-24-2005, 03:02 AM

Uncle Jim,

I am working on the second draft of my first novel- a mystery that has heavy background as it take place in a closed culture, similar to Arthur Golden's "Memoirs of a Geisha." I'm guessing that you don't moonlight as a lawyer, but I thought maybe my questions would have a clear answer for someone that's been a writer for longer than I have.

My book directly mentions a small cultish religion, The Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints- all my characters are members and thus are polygamist, one is blackmailing the church due to a financial trust it has, which does exist in life.

Can I use the church's name and that of the trust? They exist, but the scenerio I use them in doesn't.

Thanks,
TR

jules

07-24-2005, 05:02 PM

Yikes. To my inexpert ears, that sounds like dangerous ground: particularly, you'd have to be careful that none of your characters are identifiably similar to real people who hold specific positions in the church.

I'm not sure whether or not one can libel an institution; it doesn't sound likely, but I'm not a lawyer. You'd probably need to talk to one.

It sounds like a very interesting story premise, though, so don't give it up! :)

Nangleator

07-24-2005, 08:04 PM

Can I use the church's name ...? They exist, but the scenerio I use them in doesn't.
Not that it would happen to you, but the worst case scenario happened to Salman Rushdie (http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/rushdie.htm), and he had a fictional name for the religion.

toastyreward

07-24-2005, 11:17 PM

Jules,

Thanks for the input. None of my charcters are indentifiable as real people, they are pure fiction. However, the organization is real. I don't mention their prophey by name, I just called him, "The Prophet." The guy who was the prophet at the time I set this is in dead, the current one is wanted on child molestation charges and is in hiding (this is not in the book). My biggest concerns are if the institution can come after me (they do not have professional clergy and my charcters are just members) and I worry that the trust could come after me. As of a few weeks ago all of the members on it were removed, the assets frozen, and the judge is going to appoint new board members...

It is complicated, if I got an agent would they be able to tell me where the line is? Does a publisher?

paritoshuttam

07-25-2005, 09:28 AM

A basic question. What kind of books come under the mainstream/contemporary genre? Does it overlap with the genre of literary fiction?

thanks,
Paritosh.

James D. Macdonald

07-25-2005, 07:12 PM

Mainstream, contemporary, and literary are all marketing categories. What a book is called depends on how the marketing folks think it will sell better.

CalicoBean

07-26-2005, 01:54 AM

I'm not sure whether or not one can libel an institution; it doesn't sound likely, but I'm not a lawyer. You'd probably need to talk to one.

Neither am I, so I can't address that. But I was thinking, the Roman Catholic Church is an institution featured in lots of fiction, and the role it plays isn't always flattering or true to life. It must be ok (thinking of Dan Brown, though I haven't read The Da Vinci Code).

Nangleator

07-26-2005, 02:15 AM

I've been using a wonderful toy (ahem...) tool lately for learning orbital mechanics. Here (http://www.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/%7Emartins/orbit/orbit.html)it is. Free download. Steep learning curve, but worth it. Lots and lots of fun, too.

I've had to modify my novel based on things I learned with this toy. Tool, I mean.

Christine N.

07-26-2005, 03:44 AM

LOL Read Angels and Demons... he's much harder on the RCC in that one.

MadScientistMatt

07-26-2005, 04:23 AM

Neither am I, so I can't address that. But I was thinking, the Roman Catholic Church is an institution featured in lots of fiction, and the role it plays isn't always flattering or true to life. It must be ok (thinking of Dan Brown, though I haven't read The Da Vinci Code).

On the other hand, the Roman Catholic Church is a bit more thick-skinned than some religious groups. Worst they're likely to do if they hate a book is put a book on the Index of Forbidden Books, unless there is some really blatant cause for suing, such as a "nonfiction" account falsely calling the Pope a child molester. On the other hand, for some religious groups, it appears that the mere fact that they have no possible grounds for a lawsuit may not stop them from suing anyone who prints anything unfavorable about them. And there was the infamous case already mentioned in this thread where some religious extremists put a price on an author's head. So, how litigatious (or violent) is this church you're planning to feature?

dawinsor

07-26-2005, 05:32 PM

A friend pointed me to this thread a couple of weeks ago, and I've since read it all. I want to thank Jim for doing this. I've learned a lot, but then, I had a lot to learn.

I just finished a draft of my first novel, a Young Adult Fantasy. I've taken the advice of everyone here and set it aside for a few weeks to think about my next project.

I was going to say that I haven't published any fiction before (although I have committed scholarship), but I have to confess that I've written Tolkien fanfiction. It was pure (impure?) play, and I enjoyed it tremendously and learned a lot. It's very gratifying to see that hit count rise, and by the time I posted my last story, I was getting 700 hits per chapter within 48 hours. But I realized that I had written over a million words of fanfic and was getting bored. I could do that. So now it was time to try to learn to do something harder. Drafting the novel I just finished was fun. So I think the hard part will be revising it and then sending it out into the cold, cruel world. I appreciate the kind of advice and support this board provides.

jlawrenceperry

07-26-2005, 05:32 PM

By all means, use the Catholic church.

<whisper>Just don't badmouth the Illuminati!</whisper>

Roger J Carlson

07-26-2005, 05:46 PM

My book directly mentions a small cultish religion, The Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints- all my characters are members and thus are polygamist, one is blackmailing the church due to a financial trust it has, which does exist in life.

Can I use the church's name and that of the trust? They exist, but the scenerio I use them in doesn't.

Thanks,
TRWhy not make up your own ficticious splinter group, say The Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? This is entirely plausible. Extremists often break off from main religion. It would still suit the needs of the story without alienating anyone, which in my opinion you shouldn't do unless you have to.

zornhau

07-26-2005, 06:10 PM

Even better, a fictitious group will stop your story from dating.

loquax

07-26-2005, 06:26 PM

The problem is that Mormons are a splinter of Chiristianity. Do splinters splinter even more?

Roger J Carlson

07-26-2005, 06:47 PM

The problem is that Mormons are a splinter of Chiristianity. Do splinters splinter even more?Sure. Ad infinitum. Usually when an extremist splinter starts to moderate its beliefs back toward the mainstream, an extremist element will splinter from the main group to start a separate group. This has in fact happened to the LDS many times. (I'm not picking on the Mormons here. It's happened to Baptists just as often.)

James D. Macdonald

07-26-2005, 07:03 PM

Even better, a fictitious group will stop your story from dating.

It's okay for your stories to date, but they shouldn't go all the way. Be back by midnight, drive safe and have fun, kids.

triceretops

07-26-2005, 07:16 PM

Yes, the Restored version is already a splinter group of LDS. In fiction it's always a good idea to create a similar group and draw your inference around it. People will understand who you're trying to portray, and no direct insult or harm can come of it. And it's true that you don't want to date your material--organizations and groups can go bust in 20 years--highly unlikely with a group like LDS, but you want to cover your tracks.

Remember that movie staring Chevy Chase and Beverly DiAngilo, where they take their kids on a vacation to visit Wally World? Wally=Walt=Walt Disney=moose theme=mouse theme. I think it infers a connection if enough hints are dropped. It becomes quite clear (without stepping on toes) who the major theme park is supposed to represent. Although, copyright and trademark certainly play more a part in this, we still know Disneyland is brought to mind.

I once wanted to slam Random House in one of my short stories. I used the title Abandon House Publications. People got the connection and I'm sure that Random House was scratching their heads.

Tri

James D. Macdonald

07-26-2005, 07:33 PM

"I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off.So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

He said, "Like what?"

I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?"

He said, "Religious."

I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?"

He said, "Christian."

I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?"

He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist church of god or Baptist church of the lord?"

He said, "Baptist church of god!"

I said, "Me too! Are you original Baptist church of god, or are you reformed Baptist church of god?"

He said, "Reformed Baptist church of god!"

I said, "Me too! Are you reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?"

He said, "Reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!"

I said, "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off."

-- EMO PHILIPS (http://www.emophillips.com/)

Sailor Kenshin

07-26-2005, 07:42 PM

EMO PHILLIPS? Now that's an obscure reference. :)

Roger J Carlson

07-26-2005, 08:00 PM

"...He said, "Reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!"

I said, "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off."

-- EMO PHILIPS (http://www.emophillips.com/)
As a Baptist, myself, I should be outraged, but...

Saint Peter was conducting a tour of Heaven. When they came to a particular corridor, Peter turned to the group and said,"From this point, you must be absolutely silent."

The group traversed the corridor and when they emerged, one of the group said, "Peter, what was that all about?"

Peter turned to him and replied, "That's where we keep the Baptists. They think they're the only ones here."

loquax

07-26-2005, 10:02 PM

UJ, that's the best story I have ever read. Thank you for bringing it into my life

NicoleJLeBoeuf

07-27-2005, 03:26 AM

Remember that movie staring Chevy Chase and Beverly DiAngilo, where they take their kids on a vacation to visit Wally World? Wally=Walt=Walt Disney=moose theme=mouse theme. I think it infers a connection if enough hints are dropped. It becomes quite clear (without stepping on toes) who the major theme park is supposed to represent. Although, copyright and trademark certainly play more a part in this, we still know Disneyland is brought to mind.Reminds me of one of Neil Gaiman's Sandman stories, "Collectors," in which a serial killer rhapsodizes about his favorite, secret place to find children to "play with." He describes a company policy of turning a blind eye to such incidents in order to avoid bad publicity. He wears Mickey Mouse ears through the whole comic book issue, including the page on which he attempts an assault on the main character while singing "It's a Small World After All."

It was abundantly clear that he was referring to Disney World--there wasn't even a half-assed attempt to create a sort of fictional surrogate like "Wally World"--and the character's description of the blind eye practice is probably more realistic than we'd like to think, but to my knowledge the wrath of Disney has not made an appearance in retaliation.

It's interesting how far you can go with this sort of thing in fiction.

Ken Schneider

07-30-2005, 03:02 AM

Mike Martyn

07-30-2005, 03:21 AM

Okay, finished my WIP, put it in the drawer. Been, oh, about a month. Started a new WIP a few days after. Coming up on 30,000 words on it.

I've all but forgotten about the other one, and am so excited about the new one that...
Well, I really am not enamored with the thought of even starting a red pencil edit on the drawered work.

Has anyone else ever felt this way about a prior work, after getting so deeply involved in a new wip?
Thanks.

That's exactly where I am now. The rought draft of my first novel sits in its manuscript box on the shelf. The one I'm working on (17,000 words so far) is really exciting, I can't stop writing it. I view the thought of editing the first one (what rough beast indeed!) with fear and loathing in equal measure.

James D. Macdonald

07-30-2005, 03:41 AM

Ken Schneider

07-30-2005, 04:12 AM

Tomorrow it is, after my BIC time on the current WIP.

James D. Macdonald

07-30-2005, 06:31 AM

JUNIUS BROWN THE TRAGEDIAN, or "NO MATTER!"

I'm an actor who's seen better days,
For I once was a star I've a notion;
I've been toss'd about all sorts of ways
Upon the theatrical ocean.
But jealousy, spite and all that
Has brought me down to but a seedy 'un
It's been all caused by envy -- that's flat
For I once was a heavy tragedian.

CHORUS:
I've been a bright star in my time,
Though now I'm reduced to a seedy 'un;
In me you may please to behold --
Junius Brown the Tragedian.

You have all seen my name in the bills,
Which is Junius Antonius Brown, sirs;
And I flatter myself to have caused --
Great excitment in many a town, sirs;
My last 'shop' was the Garrick, Whitechapel;
In a 'part' that I could above any fit,
My 'screw' sirs, for only six nights
Was two pounds and a half a clear benefit.

SPOKEN: That was money, but what do they offer talent now! I was actually offered the other day twenty-five 'bob' per week to play Othello, the Clown in the Pantomime, and do bill-sticking in the mornings. Did I accept it? Blood and blue fire! Never! NEVER! but no matter, a time may come when they will be glad to secure the services of Brown the Tragedian.

CHORUS:
I've been a bright star in my time,
Though now I'm reduced to a seedy 'un;
In me you may please to behold --
Junius Brown the Tragedian.

Since Kemble none like me's been seen,
Yet nought but bad luck is my portion;
My friends say I'm better than Kean,
That my 'Richard' and "Hamlet's' a caution.
They say my declaiming's a treat --
In the speech over Caesar by Antony;
I can do the soft parts low and sweet,
Likewise I can 'pile up the agony.'

SPOKEN: For two consecutive weeks was I the leading attraction at the Royal Bower, and should have startled the world at Drury Lane; but for professional malice. I am kept off the boards out of fear. They know I should render Shakespeare's great characters as they have never been rendered before. My reading of his plays is entirely different to Macready, Kean, Phelps, T. C. King, and all those fellows, -- They know that, -- but no matter, a time may come when they will cringe to Brown the Tragedian.

CHORUS:
I've been a bright star in my time,
Though now I'm reduced to a seedy 'un;
In me you may please to behold --
Junius Brown the Tragedian.

I search through the 'Era' each week
And I 'write in' when talent's required,
But they say they don't know me (there's cheek
Of such insults and envy I'm tired.)
They offer me terms for a 'super,'
Or ask if I'm up to 'utility.'
But I'll starve and remain as I am --
An artiste of wondrous ability.

SPOKEN: Me, ME! Junius Antonius Brown descend to do the cock in Hamlet, or Bobby in the Pantomime. Ye Gods and small fishes! Rather would I descend from my pedestal of fame and become a comic vocalist. But no matter! NO MATTER!! The time may come when they will be glad to pile gold at the feet of Brown the Tragedian.

CHORUS:
I've been a bright star in my time,
Though now I'm reduced to a seedy 'un;
In me you may please to behold --
Junius Brown the Tragedian.

====================

Brown the Tragedian (No Matter!) as sung with great success by Arthur Lloyd. Copyright July 3rd, 1870.

black winged fighter

07-30-2005, 08:59 PM

Reminds me of one of Neil Gaiman's Sandman stories, "Collectors," in which a serial killer rhapsodizes about his favorite, secret place to find children to "play with." He describes a company policy of turning a blind eye to such incidents in order to avoid bad publicity. He wears Mickey Mouse ears through the whole comic book issue, including the page on which he attempts an assault on the main character while singing "It's a Small World After All."

It was abundantly clear that he was referring to Disney World--there wasn't even a half-assed attempt to create a sort of fictional surrogate like "Wally World"--and the character's description of the blind eye practice is probably more realistic than we'd like to think, but to my knowledge the wrath of Disney has not made an appearance in retaliation.

It's interesting how far you can go with this sort of thing in fiction.

Actually, I own that issue, and I know a few things about the Walt Disney topic. As far as I know, in his first draft, Gaiman had the serial killer wearing Mouse ears and talking about Disney. However, he was told to make the reference not quite so overt, so he changed the shape of the ears (they're pointy, now) and the guy uses 'Fun Land' as his name.
While it was still obvious that Gaiman was talking about Disney, his details weren't so specific that he could get in trouble.

Nangleator

07-30-2005, 10:09 PM

I've queried a publisher, then a couple months later discovered they accept unsolicited manuscripts.

What's the best procedure to follow here? Plainly, I want the reply to request my manuscript, but what if it's a rejection of the query? Does that disqualify me from submitting the manuscript down the road?

How awkward is it to send the manuscript as unsolicited while my query is still pending?

I'm not really an idiot, you see. I just went through all my old rejection letters to see if Ace rejected me in the past. They did, but the letter isn't dated. Was the rejection a month ago, or two years ago? Plainly, I should date the rejections as they come in, and list what's being rejected. Lesson learned.

So I'm stuck wondering whether my query has already been rejected or whether it's pending. I guess either way, it's bad mojo to send the manuscript now.

Ken Schneider

07-31-2005, 07:04 PM

Okay, Uncle Jim.

Read my drawered work yesterday. Made plenty of red pencil corrections, and fixed those on the M.S.

Printed out the reworked copy.

Is it ready for my beta's at this point?

If so, when they return their comments, I consider those, make the changes I feel are good, then send it around for possible pub?

Ken-

NicoleJLeBoeuf

08-01-2005, 01:57 AM

Actually, I own that issue, and I know a few things about the Walt Disney topic. As far as I know, in his first draft, Gaiman had the serial killer wearing Mouse ears and talking about Disney. However, he was told to make the reference not quite so overt, so he changed the shape of the ears (they're pointy, now) and the guy uses 'Fun Land' as his name.
While it was still obvious that Gaiman was talking about Disney, his details weren't so specific that he could get in trouble.I recall the "Fun Land" euphemism, but I could swear...oh, wait, you're right! He was wearing wolf ears! There was a panel that made very good use of that, actually, conflating his face with the wolf face on his shirt to indicate his violent tendencies.

I'm not a very good comic book collector; I tend to give my originals away to friends as soon as I aquire the trade paperbacks. And my TP of that storyline hasn't left my bookshelf in a while.

Anyway, the reference was pretty clear to me, even given the obliqueness of the references. I'm surprised he didn't have to change more than he did to make it to print. I suppose the line you don't want to cross will shift depending on how big a name you're impugning, how big a name you have, how big a name your publisher has, and how sensitive the subject is to the allusion. Navigating your way on the safe side of the line is probably a conversation an author will have with his publisher after acceptance.

BTW, love your new avatar!

Andrew Jameson

08-01-2005, 03:39 PM

I don't really have a question or anything; I just thought it was high time I thanked Uncle Jim. I started reading this thread early last year, back when it had twenty pages or so. I've posted two or three times, but I've mostly lurked. Read every single post in the thread. Forgotten most of them, to be sure, but enough has stuck with me that I think I've become a far, far better writer for it.

So, thanks Uncle Jim! This thread has been invaluable.

James D. Macdonald

08-01-2005, 05:51 PM

Not quite yet for the betas, Changling, unless you really want to. Now make sure the opening is the absolutely perfect opening for this book. Make sure the climax is the absolutely perfect climax.

Are all the scenes there? Are any scenes that you don't need present?

Then go through, not as a reader, but as an editor. Hold a pistol to each word and ask "Are you the perfect word?" Ask the adjectives to justify their existence. Is anything vague? Are all the descriptions fresh, and spot on?

I know some writers who re-type the whole work from scratch at this point. They figure that if a paragraph isn't worth retyping, it isn't worth reading.

Ken Schneider

08-01-2005, 08:59 PM

Thanks Jim,

I don't want to cut any corners. I'll give it the evil eye.

Your help is much appreciated,
Thanks again, Ken

hpoppink

08-01-2005, 11:51 PM

I know some writers who re-type the whole work from scratch at this point. They figure that if a paragraph isn't worth retyping, it isn't worth reading.

Thanks for the constant stream of helpful advice. I just finished my first draft and know it's awful. I plan to rewrite it from scratch after I work on a completely different novel for the next few months.

That being said, should I still practice my editing skills on this first version? Is it worth that kind of work if I am certain the current story will never be publishable?

James D. Macdonald

08-02-2005, 12:23 AM

That being said, should I still practice my editing skills on this first version? Is it worth that kind of work if I am certain the current story will never be publishable?

If you don't practice your editing skills, how will you ever obtain them?

hpoppink

08-02-2005, 03:41 AM

If you don't practice your editing skills, how will you ever obtain them?

That's true; editing crap is still editing. Thanks for your input.

Lenora Rose

08-02-2005, 08:37 AM

Also, editing what you have will make it even clearer what all you have to change in the rewrite. You'll be able to look at the big picture and find the scenes worth keeping.

Editing is more than fixing sentences.

James D. Macdonald

08-03-2005, 07:19 PM

Minor brag on one of my students here:

http://www.reflectionsedge.com/archives/aug2005/d_ss.html

NicoleJLeBoeuf

08-03-2005, 08:09 PM

Minor brag on one of my students here:

http://www.reflectionsedge.com/archives/aug2005/d_ss.htmlRead the excerpt, wanted more. Tres cool!

Mike Martyn

08-03-2005, 09:34 PM

What you need to do is make BIC time for both writing the new and editing the old. The process will make you a stronger writer.

Tomorrow's Saturday. Take the manuscript that's been sitting in the desk drawer, take the day, and read it straight through as if you were someone who'd picked it up in a bookshop. If something positively glares at you ... you're allowed to put a red mark beside it in the margin. Otherwise, just do a cold read-through.

That'll give you an idea of where you stand.

I read it all the way through. The starting point isn't where I thought it was at all. I'm going to lose the flashback in the first five pages and start it from the beginning of the former flashback. It will read better and allow for better character development from the get go. Thanks for theadvice.

triceretops

08-04-2005, 02:23 AM

James, I'll bet you've churned out more than one exceptional writing talent/student. Brag accepted in a major way.

Tri

alanna

08-04-2005, 06:31 AM

UJ- I love the exerpt? If there's more comming, will you let us know? :)

-alanna

James D. Macdonald

08-04-2005, 10:42 AM

Here are some other works by Viable Paradise students:

http://www.sff.net/people/greg/vppubs.html

Roger J Carlson

08-04-2005, 05:05 PM

James, I'll bet you've churned out more than one exceptional writing talent/student. Brag accepted in a major way.

TriAs I was accepted to Viable Paradise this fall, I'm certainly hoping this is the case!

azbikergirl

08-05-2005, 03:35 AM

Hey Roger, cool! I'll see you there :)

azbikergirl

08-05-2005, 03:48 AM

Mistook

08-05-2005, 06:03 AM

...The alternative is to make it all the daughter's story and drop in the bits about dad's early discovery as I find opportunities. Am I making this too complicated? It seems the straight chronological order would be easiest.

Bikergirl,

Just my two cents, but you'll prolly be better off starting with the daughter.

triceretops

08-05-2005, 06:11 AM

Yes, one story--one main protag--the daughter. Perhaps the daughter reads her fathers archives or letters and we glean the backstory from there. Gosh, I can't think of any examples but this technique is surprizingly effective if done properly.

Tri

J. Y. Moore

08-06-2005, 08:19 PM

It seems the straight chronological order would be easiest.

Easy isn't always better, you know :) .

J. Y. (Jean) Moore

scribbler1382

08-06-2005, 09:15 PM

It sounds like you might have two novels there, rather than two parts of one novel. For an example, see Ben Bova's "Moonrise" and "Moonwar".

azbikergirl

08-06-2005, 09:32 PM

It sounds like you might have two novels there, rather than two parts of one novel. For an example, see Ben Bova's "Moonrise" and "Moonwar".
You know, I was playing with that idea, too. I started writing the dad's part, intending a short story, but it could become a novel. It'd take some re-thinking though -- not enough conflict.

MystiAnne

08-06-2005, 11:26 PM

J. Y. Moore

08-07-2005, 06:31 PM

Hey all!

I learned that when you have one character interrupting another, you use emdashes at the end of the place of interruption for both characters, thus:

JoeBob said, "I hate Mama's--"

"--Don't talk about Mam's cooking!" Jim put a finger to his lips.

I'm doing final copy edit on my novel, and can't find any CMS or other reference to the second emdash. Is this something I picked up from screenwriting? CMS only talks about interrupted speech, not the interrupting speech. Can anyone clue me in?

I can't quote rhyme and verse but I'm fairly certain you don't use anything on the interrupting speech. You only indicate that the first person was interrupted and that dialogue ends before it normally would. Since the interrupting speech is the beginning of a sentence, it simply begins.

To further indicate the interruption, you might switch the interruption thus:

Jim jabbed a finger to his lips saying, "Hey, don't talk about Mam's cooking!"

Good luck.

J. Y. (Jean) Moore

paritoshuttam

08-08-2005, 11:22 AM

I am sure I haven't seen leading dashes to indicate an interrupting speech, or to indicate anything else either. The interrupted speech implies that the following sentence or act interrupted it, so you don't really need to indicate it.

- Paritosh

MystiAnne

08-08-2005, 08:39 PM

I pulled all the "answering" em dashes, thanks to you both for the info!

I turned in my thesis this morning, my 205 page novel "Strong Flower."

whew. 2.5 years of hard work, packed up and gone...

James D. Macdonald

08-09-2005, 10:52 PM

whew. 2.5 years of hard work, packed up and gone...

Now start your next novel.

Today.

Yes, really.

-----------

Meanwhile, on the em-dash question: As long as you're consistent and don't confuse the readers ... you can go with anything you want. Really. Go look at Cold Mountain by Charles Frazier for some bizarre punctuation if you don't believe me.

It's just that the farther outside of normal (for some values of "normal") you get, the farther over into the genius range (for some values of "genius") you have to be.

Roger J Carlson

08-09-2005, 11:06 PM

It's just that the farther outside of normal (for some values of "normal") you get, the farther over into the genius range (for some values of "genius") you have to be.LOL. As someone well below any value of "genius", I guess I'll stay well within the range of "normal" for punctuation.

MystiAnne

08-10-2005, 01:50 AM

Ah, V. Woolf has some of the most puzzling punctuation choices in Mrs. Dalloway that I've ever seen. It's just a convention from screenwriting that hasn't caught on yet, so I pulled it for the thesis--but there's more work to do before Strong Flower gets pitched to agents, so I *might* put them back ;)

I'm the opposite of genius with commas and colons and semi-colons, so I don't want to stray too far off the convetional path without GREAT reasons...

James D. Macdonald

08-10-2005, 09:13 AM

The Unstrung Harp (http://www.infinity-bound.net/TUH/tuh00.html).

(http://www.addall.com/New/BestSeller.cgi?isbn=0151004358&dispCurr=USD) And buy a copy, too. (http://www.addall.com/New/BestSeller.cgi?isbn=0151004358&dispCurr=USD)

black winged fighter

08-10-2005, 09:47 AM

And for some odd reason, I still want to write novels...

MystiAnne

08-10-2005, 06:16 PM

The Unstrung Harp. And buy a copy, too.

One of our instructors bought each of us a copy after a great class. I love Gorey
:Clap:

NicoleJLeBoeuf

08-11-2005, 09:23 AM

I've started a SF novel which spans about 30 years. I want to start with one character and his discovery. Then he has a child, who is oddly affected by his discovery. As she grows older, he's intrigued with this anomaly and spends some time investigating. But everything doesn't really come to a head until after she's an adult, at which point she becomes the main character.

I was thinking to divide it into two parts, with dad as the MC in part 1, and daughter as MC in part 2. The alternative is to make it all the daughter's story and drop in the bits about dad's early discovery as I find opportunities. Am I making this too complicated? It seems the straight chronological order would be easiest.You know, the first thing your synopsis made me think of was Sara Maitlan's Three Times Table, a novel spanning three generations in the persons of mother, grandmother, and granddaughter. The tale is more or less chronological, the three characters taking turns being the third-person-limited narrator, each with extensive flashbacks. Maitlan obviously didn't feel the need to pick one narrator for the one story; she performs an excellent juggling act, I think. (I also love this novel because it's probably my first exposure to something that could honestly be called "magic realism" without actually being Latin American.)

There's any number of books out there that change narrators between chapters or between "parts." You may not want to attempt the juggle for your first novel, but then (looks at WIP, which developed a second narrator at the end of Part One) I'm not standing on any sort of sturdy collection of legs to make that kind of advice.

jdparadise

08-11-2005, 08:38 PM

I've started a SF novel which spans about 30 years. I want to start with one character and his discovery. Then he has a child, who is oddly affected by his discovery. ... But everything doesn't really come to a head until after she's an adult, at which point she becomes the main character.

I was thinking to divide it into two parts, with dad as the MC in part 1, and daughter as MC in part 2. The alternative is to make it all the daughter's story and drop in the bits about dad's early discovery as I find opportunities.

Look at it this way: What are you trying to say with the story? What's the primary theme ("story-question," if you prefer) that you want to use the story to explore?

Once you figure that out, it'll probably be easier to figure out where to start and what to include.

For example, with the above setup, if I wanted to explore the story-question "How far will a person go to overcome her heredity and become the person she wants to be?" it would suggest one starting point. If I wanted to explore "How much does nature matter when compared to nurture?" it'd be a second; "Should the sins of the father be visited upon the son?" would be a third, and "If the aliens came to visit, what would they really care about?" would be a fourth.

What question catches your fancy enough to motivate you to spend the next year exploring it?

MarkPettus

08-18-2005, 06:17 AM

James,

I finished my first novel several weeks ago, and I want to thank you. Assuming I am successful at selling my book (and yes, I am assuming that--my amazing ego is overshadowed only slightly by my incredible talent, or vice versa) you may include me in your list of previous students who have gone on to do well at their craft.

I am a fan of fantasy and science fiction, but my own stories are literary fiction. This thread has lifted the discussion far beyond the boundaries of the genres where you are best known. Your presentation here of writing as a craft and a skill-set, your tradesman's approach to the work and the language, and your honesty about the business and art of writing have, for me, elevated this thread into lofty company. Along with Stephen King's On Writing, and Strunk and White's Elements of Style, I place Learn Writing With Uncle Jim on the list of written works that deserve credit for getting me past having a great book in my head to having a great book on paper. You are an excellent teacher, and an inspiration.

Thank You.

Mr Underhill

08-20-2005, 11:48 PM

Well, that last post is certainly a hard act to follow, which is no doubt responsible for the long Pinteresque pause in the thread.

So instead I'll say Congratulations! and offer up a toast from all the rest of us.
:Cheers:

This is certainly cause for celebration!
:banana: http://www.coolsmileys.net/food/beer2.gif :partyguy:

triceretops

08-20-2005, 11:53 PM

Congrats, Mark, you're a really gracious person for saying those things. Unc James is always fun to take along on the writing trail. You can always go back in the archives and find yourself, struggling with those same questions. You can bet the many, many novels have been written on account of Jim's expertise and direction.

Once again, party down--it's well-deserved!:Jump: :Jump: :partyguy: :Trophy:

Tri

MarkPettus

08-21-2005, 05:31 AM

Sorry, I didn't intend to become a thread killer. Thank you Mr. Underhill and Triceratops. The work is a party, and I have partied my widdle asp off for the last 6 months.

I believe in giving credit where credit is due. Uncle Jim helped me with my art, and now he is helping me with my business. Not many people can help with both.

MarkPettus

08-26-2005, 09:53 PM

Jim & Co.,

I have a question about query letters.

Among my first readers are two magazine editors, and a published playwright (one of his adaptations is very well-known). Do you think I should include a paragraph saying that these professionals have read my work and what they liked about it? I believe it is good marketing, but I'm not sure if it is good form.

What is your opinion?

ANNIE

08-26-2005, 10:29 PM

Mark, IMHO leave out the refrences. Agents will judge your Query on writing style and content. I don't think they care who read it. If I'm mistaken many apologies.

Roger J Carlson

08-26-2005, 10:43 PM

I've heard conflicting advice from agents at workshops/conferences. Donald Maase, for instance, is only interested in the story. Others, however, want to know if you've attended workshops or won any contests or been recommended by a publishing professional.

My guess is that unless the magazine editors' and playwright's names are well known to the agent or publisher, I'd leave them out. If they don't know the reputation of your reviewers, it's no better than saying your mom liked it. And they probably won't take the time to research them.

Addendum: Try reseaching your victim...uh...audience. :) Sometimes they'll list their preferences on their website.

For instance Daniel Lazar (of Writers House) says this: "If you think your pages can make me miss my subway stop and/or laugh out loud, that would be cool. Please read my submission guidelines -- I'd love to hear from you." Obviously, he's more interested in story than recommendations.

James D. Macdonald

08-27-2005, 05:31 AM

Personally I wouldn't include recommendations from other writers unless a) the writers were clients of that agent, or b) were so famous as to need no introduction. If Kurt Vonnegut said that my book was really swell, I'd mention it.

Use your best judgement and know that there isn't a right answer to that question.

James D. Macdonald

08-28-2005, 06:38 PM

Thank you for your kind comments, Mark.

==============

Brief break from writing to ask for prayers for the citizens of New Orleans and environs. This coming hurricane looks like a bad one.

MarkPettus

08-28-2005, 09:12 PM

Thank you for your outstanding instruction and advice. You should consider penning a book on writing.

Not every successful writer is a J.K. Rowling, or even a Scott Turow, most have names that wouldn't raise a single eyebrow if you dropped them at a dinner party, but the midlist is not some desolate hell-hole populated by hacks. It is a place where people who are willing to work hard can carve out real and rewarding careers. You do a better job of staking out that territory than hundreds of other less capable and intellectually inferior authors, who none-the-less offer with pomposity their "Rules and Regulations for the Right Way to Write."

Your "this is what works for me, it might work for you too" approach is a breath of fresh air. You offered me a blue collar take on what I believe is truly a blue collar endeavor. Books don't write themselves, and starving artists aren't starving because its cool to be, but because they haven't figured out how to sell their labors. Van Gogh might be a great character, but his life sucked. Stephen King is accessible, but he admits he won the lottery, and I don't buy lottery tickets. You let your intellect shine through without arrogance, and the value of a good work ethic became the theme of this monster thread.

Thanks in large part to you, I put my but in the chair and wrote my book, and this weekend a VP at one of the majors is reading it. I'm not where I want to be yet, but I know I'm on the right track, and you helped show me the way. I think you should consider turning this thread into a manual on how to get the job done.

James D. Macdonald

08-28-2005, 09:23 PM

That's pretty much it, Mark. A book that isn't written is never sold and never read.

============

Pretty soon now I'm going to drop back to Page 105 and look at some more of those samples, to see what the authors were doing.

azbikergirl

08-28-2005, 11:50 PM

What would your advice be to a writer who has two novels vying for BIC time?

One is a SF, the other's a fantasy. The SF is one I've been wanting to write for years and only now am finding the words for. The fantasy just started coming out. Because the two stories are so different, trying to write both is leaving me feeling a bit scattered. I'd ditch the fantasy (for now) and work on the SF, except that I'd started posting the fantasy for my crit group, and apparently the critters like it and want me to keep going. I want to write it, and it's coming out more easily than the SF story, but I'm more drawn to the SF story right now, intellectually and emotionally.

:Headbang: (why is this happening?!)

James D. Macdonald

08-29-2005, 12:20 AM

I'd BIC 'em alternately. Or two days on one, then one day on the other. When it's your BIC time, just open up your wordprocessor and see how you feel right then. What's the top thought in your mind?

Sometimes having two on the fire helps both.

Dawno

08-29-2005, 03:27 AM

Hi, de-lurking just to mention that the Index thread is now up to date again as of the above post.

bag

08-29-2005, 10:38 PM

UJ or anyone with a good source...
Where do you go to find information on stats/trends in publishing ? I've used Bookwire.com but would like any other suggestions.
Thanks.

James D. Macdonald

08-30-2005, 05:02 AM

Publishers Weekly, and your contacts in the industry.

Dawno

09-04-2005, 06:10 AM

What do you look for from a beta reader?

James D. Macdonald

09-05-2005, 07:19 PM

I look for an person who will give detailed, no-holds-barred honest feedback. "I liked it" isn't good enough, nor is "It sucked."

zornhau

09-05-2005, 07:49 PM

For what it's worth, here are some comments from my beta reader. I've chosen him with great care, and in the opening stages, was very careful to made sure he understood that I really was after honest feedback.

He's well versed in my chosen genre, likes my ideas, but understands that the best way to be supportive is to point out the holes! It also helps that his knowledge fills some of the gaps in mine....this chaper was seriously NOT work safe .... pity I'm finding that out this morning! :o)

this read well with good pace - will need to go over it again as a lot to take in but here are my first thoughts.
hope some of the below helps - if the MG stuff is/are too complicated for a medievalist like yourself :op let me know :o)

typo: The Tolmecs half-edged, hald tumbled down the pyramids steps

goat-abusing translation bit - Ranulph too quick and sure of plot device (like the author told him in advance :o). How about the following with more uncertainty ie
Lord Obsidian-Death's eyes narrowed. "You have more than one language?" he asked, still in Western.
"Yes....." then as a thought hammered into his skull, Ranulph took a chance, '...you goat-abusing mother-fc*ker," he finished in Northern.
Lord Obsidian-Death's expression didn't change. Evidently his magic had limits and seemed to give him master of just one at a time or perhaps just western. That could be vital to their survival.

30mm isn't a machine gun!!!!!!!! thats the calibre the USAF's A10 warthog uses to kill tanks!
12.7/15mm would be better for AA/general purpose. these would be similar to the Mg's you see on top of a modern tank ie a heavy machine gun

american M2 50 calibre - one round will blow a human body apart!
Builder: Saco Defense
Numerous manufacturers originally produced the M2 Heavy Machine Gun.
Length: 61.42 inches (156 centimeters)
Weight:
Gun: 84 pounds (38 kilograms)
M3 Tripod (Complete): 44 pounds (19.98 kilograms)
Total: 128 pounds (58 kilograms)
Bore diameter: .50 inches (12.7mm)
Maximum effective range: 2000 meters with tripod mount
Maximum range: 4.22 miles (6.8 kilometers)
Maximum effective range: is 1,830 meters
Cyclic rate of fire: 550 rounds per minute BUT CANNOT FIRE SUSTAINED - you cant hose it!!!!!!!!!
Unit Replacement Cost: $14,002

[SNIP: MORE SPECS FOR MGs HERE]

Rate of fire of a 30mm would be pants ie about 50rounds a minute, ammo would weigh a ton literally.
30mm ground attack cannon loaded with HE makes sense but would point straight down through the floor probably pointing sternwards (not in a turret) so not need travese blocks. also wouldn't be useable in Jasmines position due to back blast.

also where did they get millimeters from?

azbikergirl

09-05-2005, 07:59 PM

I have two beta readers whose input is crucial. One is a detail-oriented grammar guru with an ear for rhythm. She also has a head for logic ("how can this happen when that hasn't happened yet?"), and is visually oriented (I tend to 'forget' to set the scene). The other reads deeply and picks out all the subtle things I try to put into the story. She has an amazing ability to understand what I want to do with a scene and point out the places where I need to rework it.

James D. Macdonald

09-05-2005, 08:55 PM

Someone else once said that the ideal beta reader is a highly intelligent but dirty-minded twelve-year-old.

Dawno

09-06-2005, 09:54 PM

Someone else once said that the ideal beta reader is a highly intelligent but dirty-minded twelve-year-old.

I'll see what I can do about reading via my "inner child" :)

Thanks Zornhau and Azbikergirl, I want to do a good job as a beta reader, it helps to hear your input, too.

Mike Martyn

09-09-2005, 10:44 PM

I'm puting my first ms in final form. I recall earlier in this post that Uncle Jim put up some submission guidelines ie; put the title half way down the first page, put name, title and page number on the top right hand corner etc. I can't find that post. Could anyone direct me to it?

And yes Uncle Jim your a helluva guy.

I'm not nearly as eloquent as Mark!

MarkPettus

09-10-2005, 04:42 AM

Well, since you were so kind... let me offer you my thanks and this link:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=82984#post82984

Dawno's thread at the top of the novel writing forum is an excellent index of this thread.

Ardellis

09-10-2005, 05:22 PM

Wow! I've now read this thread all the way from the beginning, and I feel as though I've been sitting in on a really good class.
It's been said dozens of times already, but THANK YOU, UNCLE JIM! And everyone else, too!

James D. Macdonald

09-10-2005, 05:47 PM

Woo! Go me!

Next words of advice: Write a book a year.

Dick Eney

09-10-2005, 07:52 PM

QUOTE=James D Macdonald]
After I've done two hours of writing, there's a solid 22 more hours in the day for revising other material.

Uncle Jim, you sound like you've been trained by Admiral Tirpitz: "If 24 hours isn't a long enough day for you, put on a night shift!"

-- Dick Eney

Ken Schneider

09-14-2005, 03:18 AM

I've been sitting on my last book for a couple months. I started another.

I know I should print it out, and have.

Sent it out to Beta's. Dawno, if it stinks, tell me. She's the only one who hasn't replied yet.

I assume it is time to do a re-write?

I still haven't written a query letter. I'll research that here, I know there are post concerning queries.

What if I don't know all the things I need to know to re-write-right. I'll loose before I begin because of my minimal knowledge.

Do I just do the best I can and ship it out?

I am humble and honest in that I know I don't know enough yet to garner an offer to publish.

I might,(or most likely) will make a fool of myself when I submit.

Yes, I know I have a few skills where my story telling is concerned.

Proper sentence structure,keeping with the right pov, and other worries haunt me.

Do I just go for it, keep plugging away until one day when the light gets through the ear wax and I have an ah-ha moment.

I feel like leaving it in the drawer and writing another and another until I am confident in my abilities.

About to waste postage in Ohio.

James D. Macdonald

09-21-2005, 08:13 PM

The question is probably going to come up, so I might as well explain it now.

When a normal publisher publishes a book, and it's offered for sale through bookstores, that book isn't really sold until it goes out the door under a customer's arm. The other books are returned, to make way for still newer releases.

So ... how does the publisher handle paying royalties when the publisher doesn't know how many will come back to the warehouse?

This is handled with a process called "reserve against returns." The reserve is the number that you don't get paid for, just in case they come back.

Publishers don't tell you exactly what their reserves are -- but as it happens I know at least one publisher uses this formula:

The first royalty period after the book is released, the reserve against returns is 100%. Maybe they printed 30,000 copies, and maybe bookstores ordered 20,000 of them -- but they aren't going to cut a check to you for royalties on 20,000 copies. They assume that ever single one of them will be returned.

Let's say that royalty months are April and November (which again is pretty standard). Let's say the book came out in July, that the cover price is $10, and the royalty rate is 10%. And let's say the author get a $5,000 advance against 10%. (I'm choosing these numbers for ease of math, not because they're necessarily real.)

And let's say that 10,000 copies sold (actually went out the door with customers, 50% sell-through) of the 20,000 that shipped.

Right, then.

Comes November, and those 10,000 copies would be a $5,000 check for Joe Author ($10,000 in royalties minus the $5,000 advance) but he gets a royalty statement showing $0.00 due, because of the reserve against returns.

At this particular publisher the reserve against returns is 100% in the first royalty period, and 75% in the second. And let's say that another 5,000 copies of Joe's book sold in the six months from November through April. So ... Joe would have $15K coming, but .... reserve against returns is 75%, so only $3,750 is credited to him. Subtract that from the advance, and his royalty statement says that he still has $1,250 in unearned advance.

From May through October, books get returned by one bookstore, ordered by another, and an additional 5,000 that have gone out the bookstore door in a shopping bag.

Total actually sold, to date: 20,000. This time around the publisher's reserve against returns is 25%. 25% of 20,000 is 5,000 books. So the publisher only reports a total to date of 15,000 sold, for total royalties of $15,000, minus the $3,750 already credited to him, minus the $1,250 in unearned advance, so Joe gets a check for $10,000. Happy day! He's earned out!

Now in the fourth royalty period after the book came out, the reserve against returns is 0%. Books have gone out, been returned, been redistributed, sold, and another 5,000 have been bought and paid for by readers.

So far: 25,000 sold. Royalties due, $25,000. Finally, we've gotten out from under the dead horse. In April two years after his book came out, Joe Author gets paid $25,000 minus the $10,000 he was already paid, for a nice $15,000 royalty check.

After this, the reserve against returns continues at 0% -- if 5,000 books ship during those six months, the publisher pays royalties for 5,000. (And by this point they have a pretty fair idea of how many will sell, because they have a history, and at this point, with 25,000 sold out of an initial press run of 30,000 they'll probably have gone back to press. Do you know what a 100% sell-through means? It means the publisher didn't print enough copies.)

So, reserve against returns at this one publisher: 100%, 75%, 25%, 0%. It takes you two solid years to get to the place where you're getting royalties as they happen. Normally, since you got an advance, this isn't that major a problem. You're living off the advance while the reserve against returns is catching up. It protects the publisher, and you do want to protect the publisher: If they stay in business that means they'll buy more of your books.

(Among other unrealistic things in this story: I set the advance low for a book that was going to sell those numbers. I wanted to show a book earning out because I'm a sucker for happy endings.)

MystiAnne

09-21-2005, 11:30 PM

In my opinion, if you don't LOVE that book, don't send it out! It's great that you are clear about the fact that some of your skills are in place (and be proud of them!), but when you say things like "proper sentence structure and POV" are still a concern, it seems likely that you have some more learning to do. A very few writers are overly critical of their abilities. But I also believe new writers have to be BETTER than average to get attention of publishers. Anyway, best of luck with all your writing!

My first novel is as yet unpublished, but I've done a ton of writing and have worked hard on my basics while honing my storytelling craft, and there is a point where you can see the difference in your own work.

Listen to the helpful inner voice, not the mean one ;)

Good LUCK!

Mysti Berry
P.S. You can find online versions of my first published work (Todd Point Review) here:
http://www.mcwc.org/05_winners.htm You'll see that I can use some improvement in manipulating point of view to make the story sharper too...

James D. Macdonald

09-25-2005, 09:04 PM

Hardcover novels don't go above $28.00, generally speaking, because the public won't buy them. Not even from authors they know and like. Because the public won't buy them, the bookstores won't stock them. The bookstores will fill that same rack space with a book that will sell.

A newer author with a long book -- won't get bought, generally, if the printing costs for the print run that a new author is likely to get would push the retail price above $28.00. Grisham can do it because his books sell well enough that the publisher can print a ton and a half of them, and push the per-unit printing price down.

(How far down? Far enough down that the bookstore can get the book at a 65% discount, and the publisher can still make money. That's how you see Times Best Sellers in bookstores discounted by 50%, and the bookstore still makes money. Don't worry about Grisham, though -- he's still getting his royalty based on the whole $27.95 cover price.)

There's the genius exception: Susanna Clarke's debut novel, Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, is a hefty 800 pages. Notice, please, that the cover price is $27.95. Notice too that Bloomsbury marketed the heck out of that novel, in an attempt to ship as many copies as they had printed, because they had to print a heck of a lot to make that price. Notice also that Ms. Clarke's book, in trade paperback, is listing at $15.95.

Why $15.95?

While it isn't as fixed at rule as $28.00 among hardcover novels, the equivalent price among trade paperbacks is $16.00. Customers leave the more expensive books right on the shelf. Even from authors they know and like.

Don't forget that the cover price and the cash register price of books is often different -- and the latter is usually quite a bit lower than the former.

James D. Macdonald

09-25-2005, 09:10 PM

Do I just go for it, keep plugging away until one day when the light gets through the ear wax and I have an ah-ha moment.

Yes, Ken, go for it. Write the book as well as you can. Keep learning! Read other writers, see how they solved the problems that you're facing in your own writing.

Read other authors with your writer mind. You'll be reading, not for plot and story, but for the mechanics of that plot and story. "Nice save!" you'll say to yourself. "Ohhh.... that was tricky!" you'll say somewhere else. "Gee, you flubbed that; real clumsy" you'll say elsewhere. Writers read other writers with different eyes than do regular readers. That's why you need beta readers -- who aren't writers themselves.

That's why the Nebula Awards (given by writers to writers) seldom select the same winners as the Hugo awards (given by readers to writers).

James D. Macdonald

09-25-2005, 09:13 PM

On the subject of when to send the novel out:

Once you've made it as good as you can make it -- send it out. Start high and work down.

How else will you ever know that you've reached a publishable level of writing? More: It will get you used to the next part of the process, the endless submission and rejection cycle. The first time is horrid. The twentieth time is "So what?"

Once again, let me recommend The Unstrung Harp; or, Mr. Earbrass Writes A Novel (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0151004358/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/). That short book contains the real truth about publishing.

Nangleator

09-30-2005, 07:03 PM

I've been polishing my turd for a few years now, and my beta readers agree it's more than good enough. Unfortunately, I tried sending it out before it was polished and now I'm wondering how big a mistake I've made.

If an editor sees a new version of a story he didn't like before, how predisposed is he to reject?

How likely is it that any offer would be lessened if the editor saw a naked, ugly form of the novel? (That sounds like a silly question, but I don't imagine any first novels that earned big advances were shopped around in incrementally improved forms for years.)

James D. Macdonald

09-30-2005, 07:23 PM

Lessee....

We're talking about a novel here, right?

You've made significant changes, right?

If it's been years, the same editor may not even be there any more.

Just be up front in your cover letter, and don't worry too much. What really matters is the words on the page. Meanwhile start work on your next novel.

MystiAnne

09-30-2005, 08:18 PM

I just finished with the first meeting of our new writer's group, formed from students in the program we just finished, and I just wanted to share a helpful exercise, probably all you all know it already, but it's the first time I tried it on a work in progress directly.

Okay, so I have a historical setting, a different culture from mine but a real one that most folks don't know much about, and I've chosen to use a fairly close third person (of course distance varies over the course of a short story and especially over a novel, but most novels that I've read spend a majority of the time at a particular distance if 3rd person) instead of omnisicient POV (well, the prologue is omniscient, as is the first paragraph of chapter 1). But the feel of the novel after a solid second draft just wasn't right--too, something, or not enough something else. I was scared that I *had* to have an omniscient narrator, ala Clan of the Cave Bears, at least at the beginning, but was resisting it because that usually makes the beginning so hard to get through.

So, I took the first two pages, and rewrote them in several different versions, each time with a specific intention in mind. The one that was most successful was simply "make it closer to POV character." I had planned to write versions focussing on character's sense of loss, etc. etc., but hitting this one changed just the first two pages fundamentally, bringing not only the main character closer to the reader but the other chars as well. Probably only 30% of the words changed, and I didn't even do much re-arranging, but writing with that specific intention has made all the difference in the world. I can't wait to get at the other 200 pages over the next few weeks (accidental unemployment for a month! whew!)...

Anyway, I'd been fussing and bothering and fretting over "the voice" of the novel and how much I wanted to play with distance in POV, worrying about making it more "spiritual" or "magical" or shamanistic, and how the dickens to do that (it's a shamanistic culture with a strong record of religious tolerance). But lo, I discovered, nothing fancy was required, I just needed to go back and inspect every sentence, and recast some in the POV character's language, or from her point of view intellectually or emotionally. That will bring up her people's unique characteristics, as well as her own, judging by this first experiment. The best thing about the exercise was how *sure* I felt about making changes--loading the intention into my forebrain gave me the ability to edit in a flow that I usually only experience in first draft...pretty cool stuff.

It shouldn't surprise me, I'm used to doing drafts devoted only to continuity or only to spelling/punctuation, one for awkward sentence construction, one for excess adverbs/repeated words/is there a better noun or verb,

so why NOT a draft for POV? doh. It sounds so simple when I say it now.

If other folks have had similar experiences, please share! The more I write, the more plastic I realize my "darlings" are :)

Mysti

aruna

10-04-2005, 12:12 PM

bump - from page 2

RussT

10-12-2005, 02:55 AM

Hi.

Coming to this party late and reading on page 16 of some 180 pages. Thought that I'd read the ending to see if it were a happy one.

Many thanks for your thoughts and information.

Russ

ps: My wife is editing my first novel. So far, we are still friends.

J. Y. Moore

10-13-2005, 10:56 PM

Hi Jim,

I just ran across a tidbit by Kathy Ide via Jenna's AbsoluteWrite newsletter: http://www.absolutewrite.com/freelance_writing/Ide/pugs_pointers_102005.htm, wherein Kathy instructs that only one space is used after ending punctuation for any sentence that will be typeset (I hope my paraphrasing is accurate).

Is this strictly something for the typesetter to do or is it something that should be addressed/adhered to by the author? I believe it would be extremely difficult for me to change that kind of habit. A double space seems to come out of my fingers at the end of a sentence.

Nangleator

10-13-2005, 11:22 PM

Nothing could be simpler than to use a word processor's Search & Replace function if two spaces is a bad thing. Just search and replace all instances of (space space) with (space).

However, reversing this is a bit more complicated. Replace all (period space) with (period space space) makes an ugly distance in names like Dr. McCoy and Mr. Spock. Also, don't forget exlamation points and question marks. (And ellipses?)

Also, how do you handle the space after the end of a sentence of dialog?

"Where's Waldo?"_There was no reply.

or

"Where's Waldo?"__There was no reply.

No, it's much simpler to type the way you were taught. If they don't like the extra spaces and get cranky about deleting them, I'd be happy to offer my Search & Replace talents for a modest fee. :tongue

James D. Macdonald

10-15-2005, 07:19 AM

Is this strictly something for the typesetter to do or is it something that should be addressed/adhered to by the author? I believe it would be extremely difficult for me to change that kind of habit. A double space seems to come out of my fingers at the end of a sentence.

The double-space/single space after punctuation mostly separates folks who learned how to type on a typewriter from those who learned how to type on a computer.

If you're submitting to folks who will publish your work electronically (a webzine, say), or folks who will be typesetting directly from your file, you can go ahead and do a global search-and-replace to turn double spaces into single spaces.

Personally, I double-space after periods.

In any case, always follow the publisher's guidelines to the letter.

brinkett

10-15-2005, 05:02 PM

I believe it would be extremely difficult for me to change that kind of habit. A double space seems to come out of my fingers at the end of a sentence.
You might be surprised. I learned how to type on a typewriter and yes, always put two spaces. A few months ago, because of the number of guidelines that wanted only a single space after a period, I started training myself to put only one space. It didn't really take all that long for it to become my new habit, and you can set Word to flag where you type two spaces so you can see as soon as you do it. I've also found that while I now type only one space when writing, I still type two spaces when doing email and posts. The brain is a wonderful thing...

jules

10-16-2005, 03:45 AM

Yeah, I did it the other way around: I learned to type putting only one space in, but a while ago I started working with a manager who insisted in two spaces in everything I typed. It only took a few weeks to get into the habit.

alisonbruce

10-16-2005, 10:38 AM

is that it is a mono spaced font--what does that mean? That each letter, number, punctuation, etc., takes up the same amount of space.

They (publishers) need to know how many pages your book is going to take up and they base it on mono spacing.
Shawn

Thank you! I hate Courier. It's ugly and I find it hard to read. I couldn't understand why so many people recommended it. Now that I know that it is not an arbitary style choice, I will use it for submissions regardless of my personal prejudice.

Christine N.

10-16-2005, 04:20 PM

Personally, I think it's that Courier looks like a typewriter font, and publishers long for the old days. :) Or they just can't figure out how to make everything work out in TNR.

scarletpeaches

10-16-2005, 07:41 PM

If only you could present manuscripts in Space Toaster or Century Gothic!

Richard

10-16-2005, 08:24 PM

Better yet, Wingdings! Every manuscript is a little encryption puzzle to be solved...

Ken Schneider

10-22-2005, 04:20 AM

U.J.

I received my first rejection on an M.S I've sent out. They requested the whole M.S. to read from my query. So, I would assume that my query fair enough to garner a read.

What, if anything should I do to the M.S. before I send out for another round?

Berry

10-22-2005, 05:06 AM

What, if anything should I do to the M.S. before I send out for another round?

Unless the rejection letter pointed out obvious typos or other gaffes, either make sure the returned MS is clean, or print a new one, and send it back out. Do it today.

And start your next one, if you haven't already.

HConn

10-22-2005, 07:06 AM

What Berry said.

Ken Schneider

10-22-2005, 10:41 PM

Thanks, Yes, I've finished one more book,(in the drawer) and working on another.

Okay, will double check through it, and send it back out. I have been following the guidelines to the letter, and most say, "No simultaneous subs." So, it's been one at a time.

Thanks.
Ken

Berry

10-23-2005, 12:07 AM

Then it sounds like you're doing everything right, Ken.

Now if I could only take my own advice and get my B.I.C. . . .

James D. Macdonald

10-31-2005, 07:08 PM

I've been neglecting my poor little thread for too long.

It's time now to turn back the clock and clear up some unfinished business from Page 105 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710&page=105&pp=25). Yes, it's time to play What's Going On Here?

The passage under discussion goes like this:

I had always been fascinated by the big house of Framling. Perhaps it had begun when I was two years old and Fabian Framling had kidnapped me and kept me there for two weeks. It was a house full of shadows and mystery, I discovered, when I went in search of the peacock-feather fan. In the long corridors, in the gallery, in the silent rooms, the past seemed to be leering at one from all corners, insidiously imposing itself on the present and almost--though never quite--obliterating it.

For as long as I could remember Lady Harriet Framling had reigned supreme over our village. Farm labourers standing respectfully at the side of the road while the carriage, emblazoned with the majestic Framling arms, drove past, touched their forelocks and the women bobbed their deferential curtsies. She was spoken of in hushed whispers as though those who mentioned her feared they might be taking her name in vain; in my youthful mind she ranked with the Queen and was second only to God. It was small wonder that when her son, Fabian, commanded me to be his slave, I--being only six years old at that time--made no protest. It seemed only natural that we humble folk should serve the Big House in any way that was demanded of us.

The Big House--known to the community as "The House" as though those dwellings which the rest of us occupied were something...

Now let's look at it sentence by sentence:

I had always been fascinated by the big house of Framling.

First person narrator. We're in, or the narrator has been in, a place called "Framling," where there's a big house. The narrator finds this fascinating, there's an implication that the readers will too.

Perhaps it had begun when I was two years old and Fabian Framling had kidnapped me and kept me there for two weeks.

We have a character name now: Fabian Framling. (English-speaking world, apparently.) We have action sometime in the past. Kidnapping is fairly dramatic. So in two sentences we have a person in a place with a problem. Good start. Bad point: It's trivial. It's much like saying "I don't know why I'm afraid of dogs. Perhaps it has something to do with my having been mauled by a pit bull when I was two." Yeah, good guess. Probably does.

It was a house full of shadows and mystery, I discovered, when I went in search of the peacock-feather fan.

"Full of shadows and mystery" verges on cliche. But we have the narrator in center here. Perhaps this is characterization, and he's the sort of person who speaks in fluent cliche. (At the moment, we don't know if the character is male or female.) We've also been introduced to an object. Apparently Fabian Framling's big house is the sort of place that could conceivably hold peacock-feather fans. Possible 1920s time-frame? Certainly the fellow Framling is rich: If for no other reason having the town named after him would imply that.

In the long corridors, in the gallery, in the silent rooms, the past seemed to be leering at one from all corners, insidiously imposing itself on the present and almost--though never quite--obliterating it.

By far the longest, most complex sentence so far. I have no idea how "the past" would go about "leering." This is an example of personification; it could easily become pathetic. We're getting more of an idea of the house -- it's the sort of place that has long corridors and a gallery. It's deserted, or nearly so (silent rooms). Was the family once larger? The house may be more than a mere setting. It may approach being a character in the story. So ends the first paragraph.

For as long as I could remember Lady Harriet Framling had reigned supreme over our village.

Okay, the narrator is located in the village of Framling. "Lady" implies England. We're slowing down to deliver backstory.

Farm labourers standing respectfully at the side of the road while the carriage, emblazoned with the majestic Framling arms, drove past, touched their forelocks and the women bobbed their deferential curtsies.

British spelling. Yep, England. Carriage: Not modern, but early 20th century isn't yet out of the question. Are the arms actually "majestic"? That is, are the Framlings royalty? We're in a rural area. More sense of time and place being laid down here.

She was spoken of in hushed whispers as though those who mentioned her feared they might be taking her name in vain; in my youthful mind she ranked with the Queen and was second only to God.

Right -- we're probably 19th century. That's likely Queen Victoria. "Hushed whispers" -- is hammering it home a bit heavily, don't you think? How's a hushed whisper different from a regular whisper? Again, this could be characterization of the narrator. (In first person, narrative is also dialog.) "Taking her name in vain" is a biblical reference; Lady Harriet is more than a civil authority -- she's taken an aspect of God. That's reinforced by the last word of the sentence (the last word is a position of power).

It was small wonder that when her son, Fabian, commanded me to be his slave, I--being only six years old at that time--made no protest.

I thought the kidnapping was when the narrator was two? Is this a different event? We may be looking at a story of an outsider's view of the doings of the rich and powerful. Is "slave" the right word?

It seemed only natural that we humble folk should serve the Big House in any way that was demanded of us.

The house and the family are being equated. "It seemed" implies that the reality was different. Will the story be one of discovering truth?

The Big House--known to the community as "The House" as though those dwellings which the rest of us occupied were something...

Yep, the Big House (now a proper noun at this point, though it wasn't in the first sentence) looks like it's going to be a character in this story. And with this we end the first page of this book. Sure, I'd turn the page right now.

MarkButler

10-31-2005, 08:07 PM

James, I'm really glad your doing all of this.. I plan to spend a lot of time perusing this thread once Nano quiets down.

One thing I noticed on this opening paragraph, are you analyzing only the subject matter and not writing style? For example, there are 3 "had's" in the first 2 sentences which I've heard is not a recommended strategy... and I found the 2nd sentence difficult to follow, I'm not sure why, but the "I discovered" just doesn't flow right somehow for me.. I end up going back and rereading the sentence a couple of times trying to figure out what connects to what.

whats up with the "forelocks" thing? Isn't that on a horse?

James D. Macdonald

10-31-2005, 09:18 PM

All that the use of "had" means is that the author is using the past perfect tense. That is to say, the author is describing an action completed in the past. Would "I discovered" be clearer if it were written "I discovered [at that time]"?

In a novel, dialog is privileged speech. In a story written in first person, the narration is a form of dialog, and so is also privileged.

I'm not so much concerned with the style as I am with the story. A fast-moving story will take you over some very rough prose. Conversely, no matter how perfect the prose, a slow-moving story won't carry the reader anywhere.

Tugging the forelock as a means of showing deference is very much a human thing (the military salute is a stylized form of this).

maestrowork

10-31-2005, 09:18 PM

I do think Uncle Jim was focusing on the storytelling aspect of writing -- is it good enough for us to turn the page. Style is a subjective thing. Two different writers would write the same scene differently. Then again, storytelling is also subjective (it's an ART, silly). I personally find that passage not very interesting and I won't read on.

James D. Macdonald

10-31-2005, 09:20 PM

I suspect that the passage quoted comes from a historical romance. With the emphasis on the house, it may even be a gothic romance.

(You know the definition of a gothic, right? Girl gets boy, girl loses boy, girl gets house.)

Christine N.

11-01-2005, 03:41 AM

Or a Regency.

James D. Macdonald

11-01-2005, 03:51 AM

Hmmm? I rather doubt it's a Regency. I think the Queen element is a bit strong for that.

Ah, well.

Meanwhile, here's a quiz for everyone: What kind of Regency Heroine are you? (http://quizilla.com/users/17catherines/quizzes/The%20Regency%20Romance%20Quiz:%20What%20kind%20of %20Romance%20Heroine%20are%20you%3F/)

azbikergirl

11-01-2005, 04:52 AM

Oh dear, you are Bookish, aren't you? You are a highly intelligent and witty bluestocking, whose beauty is hidden behind spectacles. Your dress sense is eccentric and a little unfashionable, and you consider yourself plain. You have very little use for men, who find your knowledge of Shakespeare, interest in politics and forthright speech formidable. You are undoubtedly well-off. The only reason for your presence in a novel of this kind (which, I might add, you would not dream of reading, although you have occasionally enjoyed the works of Miss Austen), is your mother, who is absolutely determined that you will make a good marriage. Rather than defying her directly, you are quietly subversive, dancing with anyone who asks you, but making no attempt to hide your intellectual interests. The only person who can get past your facade is the man who is witty enough to spar with you, and be amused at your blatant attempts to scare your suitors away. While you will, no doubt, subject him to a gruelling cross-examination to find out whether his respect for your intelligence is real or mere flattery, you may be sure that he is your match, and that you, he AND your mother will all live happily ever after.

Hrmph.

maestrowork

11-01-2005, 05:27 AM

pepperlandgirl

11-01-2005, 11:55 AM

Dredging up long forgotten books from my memory, the passage looks like Victoria Holt. The mention of the peacock fan makes me think it's The India Fan

*checks Amazon*

Heh, I'm right. I must have read that book 10 or 12 years ago...I guess it made an impression. That, and I devoured every single Victoria Holt novel I could find when I was around 12...

Avalon

11-01-2005, 05:49 PM

azbikergirl, I got exactly the same response on that quiz that you did!

James D. Macdonald

11-01-2005, 09:13 PM

azbikergirl, I got exactly the same response on that quiz that you did!

So did I.

(As a writer I'm in touch with my feminine side.)

Lilybiz

11-03-2005, 05:47 AM

Hi everyone,

I just want to let you know I'm here.

I'm the same kind of Regency heroine as Azbikergirl, Uncle Jim and Avalon. Perhaps we're all a bit bookish, eh?

It has been my self-imposed rule that I wasn't allowed to contribute until I'd read this thread from beginning to, well, here. I've loved reading every word and I hope it never ends.

Thank you, Uncle Jim, for being a straight-forward, generous teacher. My WIP is two-thirds of the way through its second draft, thanks to my beta readers, BIC and you. Your precision and care are inspirational.

Here's my dumb question: After completing the first draft, in my ignorance I thought it would be a good idea to copyright my novel before mailing out copies to my beta readers. So now my novel is copyrighted 2002, but it probably won't be completed until 2006.

Do I just not mention this until I have an agent or publisher interested? Is it simple enough to simply sell/give them the copyright, or have I unnecessarily complicated things? I hope I don't have to change the title because I love my title (I know, I know, they're just going to change it anyway).

Thank you all again. I love this thread! Feels all homey and cozy.

brinkett

11-03-2005, 06:10 AM

I'm the same kind of Regency heroine as Azbikergirl, Uncle Jim and Avalon.

So am I. Is it rigged? Is anyone a different type of heroine?

James D. Macdonald

11-03-2005, 07:02 AM

Welcome, aertep.

The copyright problem -- well, you're going to re-write the book several times, after you hear back from your beta readers, after you've left it in your desk drawer for a couple of months, and so forth and so on.

It may be a substantially different work by the time you're done.

Heck, after it's sold -- one of mine, the editor didn't like the characters' names. What happened? We worked out different names because you know what? He had a point.

Please don't put the copyright notice on the manuscript when you start sending it around. After it's sold ... then you can be honest with your editor and mention this detail. The editor will *facepalm*, and it'll all be over.

I've mentioned why copyrighting your book in advance is a poor plan. No need to angst about it now. Remember for your next book. (You are working on a "next book," right?)

Lilybiz

11-03-2005, 07:23 AM

Please don't put the copyright notice on the manuscript when you start sending it around. After it's sold ... then you can be honest with your editor and mention this detail. The editor will *facepalm*, and it'll all be over.

I've mentioned why copyrighting your book in advance is a poor plan. No need to angst about it now. Remember for your next book. (You are working on a "next book," right?)

Thanks, I'm reassured.

Yes, I'm working on my next book, though I admit it's in the "notes on scraps" stage, which in my routine comes way before the "typed outline" stage.

SeanDSchaffer

11-03-2005, 07:31 AM

Snipped....

The editor will *facepalm*, and it'll all be over.

....Snipped.

Uncle Jim, what does 'Facepalm' mean? I don't think I've ever heard that term before.

Thanks in advance.

:Coffee:

pepperlandgirl

11-03-2005, 10:22 AM

So am I. Is it rigged? Is anyone a different type of heroine?

I'm the Arranged Marriage heroine, which fits, because the arranged marriage is my number one historical romance guilty pleasure...

James D. Macdonald

11-03-2005, 02:34 PM

"Facepalm" is the act of burying your face in the palm of your hand. It's a gesture of despair, a bit more emphatic than merely pinching the bridge of your nose and shaking your head.

You'll find a lovely use of "facepalm" with examples from context here: Troy in Fifteen Minutes (http://www.livejournal.com/users/cleolinda/99710.html)

jules

11-03-2005, 03:38 PM

Kind of like this: :Smack:

SeanDSchaffer

11-04-2005, 12:57 AM

I see. That makes sense. I'll try to remember not to put a copyright notice on my manuscripts anymore, when I send them to publishers to be considered. The fact I have put one on every manuscript I've sent out, registered or not, over the last several years, could be a major reason I'm not properly published yet.

Thanks.

:)

Berry

11-04-2005, 01:21 AM

The fact I have put one on every manuscript I've sent out, registered or not, over the last several years, could be a major reason I'm not properly published yet.

I wouldn't say a "major" reason, but it's one of a number of minor reasons that can add up to a rejection. A major reason would be you are subliterate (clearly not the case with you), use red ink on purple paper, threaten the editor, or lie about your credentials.

Minor reasons would be: Cover letter addressed "To whom it may concern", a copyright notice, Times font instead of Courier, and so on.

If you have a terrific story that makes people want to flip the pages, you can overcome a few minor gaffes in the submission package. If not, nothing will help.

Sharon Mock

11-04-2005, 11:39 PM

I don't even need to take the quiz to know I'd get Bookish.

Sigh...

SeanDSchaffer

11-04-2005, 11:54 PM

I wouldn't say a "major" reason, but it's one of a number of minor reasons that can add up to a rejection. A major reason would be you are subliterate (clearly not the case with you), use red ink on purple paper, threaten the editor, or lie about your credentials.

Minor reasons would be: Cover letter addressed "To whom it may concern", a copyright notice, Times font instead of Courier, and so on.

If you have a terrific story that makes people want to flip the pages, you can overcome a few minor gaffes in the submission package. If not, nothing will help.

Good point, Berry. Thanks!

:Sun:

Andrew Jameson

11-05-2005, 02:42 AM

Uncle Jim:

Question about this recent post of yours (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=385383&postcount=27255) over in the NEPAT. The post was in response to a posted quote from Writers Digest: Agent Lori Perkins of the L. Perkins Agency in New York says it's much easier to market a first-time novelist's book if the word count falls between 80,000 and 100,000 words, or roughly 300 double-spaced, typed pages--the average novel length.

One-third of the novels that come into the agency are rejected because they're too long or short, (Perkins says), "The cost greatly increases on books larger than 100,000, so agents and publishers are less likely to gamble on a manuscript the size of a dictionary."You go on to explain publishing economics, in particular showing the difference between a 100,000 word and 120,000 word novel.
So, my question is: my current fantasy WIP is clocking in at 107,000 words and change. This is after multiple edits that reduced the word count, and I feel reasonably comfortable that everything in the book deserves to be there. Should I be alarmed? 107,000 isn't that much more than 100,000, but then 120,000 isn't that much more than 100,000 either.

jules

11-05-2005, 03:16 AM

Is that 107k a word processor count, or a 250-words-per-page count? If the former, what's the latter?

Also, the target word count really depends very much on the publisher. I recently read a post by Jim Baen on the Baen Bar that suggested strongly they're looking for a minimum of 100k these days, not a maximum.

James D. Macdonald

11-05-2005, 04:28 AM

7,000 words ... just wait 'til you've been edited. Those can evaporate. Really. You'd be surprised.

Don't sweat it. As long as you're within ballpark of the publisher's guidelines, you'll do fine.

Andrew Jameson

11-05-2005, 05:03 AM

Thanks, Uncle Jim. I was having visions of being helplessly adrift above the word-count cutoff point, and I honestly hadn't considered the potential for wordcount reduction in editing.

Jules: 107,000 is the word processor word count. Page count is 538 (Courier 12 point, 1" margins, 24 lines/page).

ted_curtis

11-06-2005, 02:03 AM

Jules: 107,000 is the word processor word count. Page count is 538 (Courier 12 point, 1" margins, 24 lines/page).

So if they use 25 lines of Courrier with one inch margins, that's equal to 516 pages. At 250 words/page, that's 129,000 words.

I did the same thing with my novel, and the 65,000 words suddenly became 87,000. That's a lot of word-inflation.

Someone let me know if I did the calculation wrong.

Ted

Lilybiz

11-06-2005, 02:30 AM

So if they use 25 lines of Courrier with one inch margins, that's equal to 516 pages. At 250 words/page, that's 129,000 words.

I did the same thing with my novel, and the 65,000 words suddenly became 87,000. That's a lot of word-inflation.

Someone let me know if I did the calculation wrong.

Ted

Me too, please. That formula just added 15,000 (nonexistent) words to my WIP.

Petrea

HConn

11-06-2005, 02:39 AM

Lilybiz

11-06-2005, 02:54 AM

"Word count" is a measure of the amount of space your book will take up on the page.

If you use one-inch margins, Courier 12 and so on, you should have about 60 characters per line. Since a "word" is five characters with one space, that's ten "words" per line.

That means this exchange:

------------------------

"Lutefisk?"

"No."

"Sure?"

"Absolutely."

-------------------------

is actually worth 40 words, because of all the white space those one-word lines will take up on a page. That's the professional way to do it.

It's not live or die, though. Take four or five minutes to calculate your word count in different way, then pick the number that you like best.

Ah, thank you HConn, I think this is becoming clear. The publisher isn't really interested in how many words there are in the manuscript. If I have two books and one is entirely short snippets of dialogue and the other is entirely descriptive paragraphs, it doesn't matter. If they're both 300 pages long, 1 inch margins, courier 12, to the publisher they are the same length, containing the same number of words.

Is that correct?

SeanDSchaffer

11-06-2005, 02:57 AM

"Word count" is a measure of the amount of space your book will take up on the page.

If you use one-inch margins, Courier 12 and so on, you should have about 60 characters per line. Since a "word" is five characters with one space, that's ten "words" per line.

That means this exchange:

------------------------

"Lutefisk?"

"No."

"Sure?"

"Absolutely."

-------------------------

is actually worth 40 words, because of all the white space those one-word lines will take up on a page. That's the professional way to do it.

It's not live or die, though. Take four or five minutes to calculate your word count in different way, then pick the number that you like best.

Really? I never could figure out how they came up with that.

I'm going to make a calculation real quick.

My margins, presently, are 1.5 inches.
Courier New, Point Size 10
27 lines per page (Because of the smaller point size)
All I have to figure out now is how many characters per line....

I'll be back in a couple minutes.

SeanDSchaffer

11-06-2005, 03:04 AM

I came up with 11 words per line. (Again, this is with Courier New font, Point Size 10, 1.5 inch margins.)

So if my multiplication is correct, I have a manuscript with 297 'words' per page.

That will drastically increase the word-count of my present WIP.

Cool!

HConn

11-06-2005, 03:52 AM

Petrea, I 'm no expert, but that's how I understand it works.

Courier Point size 10 is the same as Courier 12, right? The paper is 8.5 inches wide, minus 2 inches of margin makes it 6.5 inches of text. Courier 12 is supposed to have 10 characters per inch, so that should be 65 characters.

So why is it that 65 characters makes 10 words? You got me. Maybe it has to do with word-wrapping or whatever. But that's the way it's done.

SeanDSchaffer

11-06-2005, 04:19 AM

Courier Point size 10 is the same as Courier 12, right?

I'm afraid not, HConn. Courier Point size 10 is 2 points smaller than Courier Point Size 12. It's like comparing Pica type to Elite type. They're two different physical sizes.

Since Courier 10 is smaller than Courier 12, that's how I came up with 11 words per line at 1.5 inch margins. That's the formatting I've been using on my Second Draft.

For the sake of alleviating any further headaches, my Third Draft will be done with the proper formatting, now that I know what that formatting is.

pepperlandgirl

11-06-2005, 04:24 AM

SeanDSchaffer

11-06-2005, 04:52 AM

It'll take you about 1 minute to put your current draft in the proper formatting so you can get an "exact" count.

1) Select all, go to paragraph, change the line spacing to exactly 25
2) Change the font to Point 12
3) Go to Page Properties and change the margins to 1 inch all around.

Easy peasy.

Understood. I'll see what I can do.

There was one thing, though. When I do headers, they end up so close to the text with one inch margins that I'm afraid people will mistake them for text.

For reference purposes, my headers go as follows:

Book Title / Author Last Name / Draft Number / Page Number

I'm not even sure if that's proper formatting either, though.

Lilybiz

11-06-2005, 05:01 AM

James D. Macdonald

11-06-2005, 05:13 AM

So why is it that 65 characters makes 10 words? You got me. Maybe it has to do with word-wrapping or whatever. But that's the way it's done.

The average word in English is 5.5 letters long. With a space, it's 6.5 letters.

6.5 inches/line * 10 characters/inch = 65 characters/line.

65 characters/line / 6.5 charaters/word = 10 words/line

25 lines/page * 10 words/line = 250 words/page

================

Courier 12 point = Courier 10cpi = pica

Courier 10 point = Courier 12 cpi = elite

================

Book Title / Author Last Name / Draft Number / Page Number

I'm not even sure if that's proper formatting either, though.

Works for me. If you set 'em flush-right no one will consider 'em part of the text. Also, for submission copy, you might want to drop the draft number. No one but you cares.

(After editing starts, if you provide a re-written version, a date up there might be handy.)

==============

Wide margins and lots of space between lines and between letters gives the editor room to work. An awful lot of editing is hand-work with a pencil.

SeanDSchaffer

11-06-2005, 07:48 AM

Cool, Uncle Jim. Thank you for the info!

:)

HConn

11-06-2005, 09:17 AM

The average word in English is 5.5 letters long. With a space, it's 6.5 letters.

Much is made clear. Thanks for the correction.

jules

11-06-2005, 12:09 PM

I'm afraid not, HConn. Courier Point size 10 is 2 points smaller than Courier Point Size 12. It's like comparing Pica type to Elite type. They're two different physical sizes.

Courier 10pt is approximately the same as Courier 12CPI, which is I think what HConn meant.

SeanDSchaffer

11-06-2005, 08:40 PM

Courier 10pt is approximately the same as Courier 12CPI, which is I think what HConn meant.

And by CPI, I take it you mean Characters Per Inch? I see what you're saying. My mistake then.

Thank you for pointing that out to me.

:)

HConn

11-07-2005, 05:47 AM

Courier 10pt is approximately the same as Courier 12CPI, which is I think what HConn meant.

Yes, and Courier 12 has 10 characters per inch. If you type out 0123456789 in Courier New 12, then print up the page, those ten numbers should take up one inch of space on a line.

Who, me? Procrastinate?

James D. Macdonald

11-11-2005, 02:29 AM

*COCOA Association Requests Help

Copyright Owners' Control of Access (COCOA) is petitioning Amazon, Google, Microsoft, etc. to allow copyright owners to exercise their legal right to control what's shown via systems like Google Print & Amazon's Search Inside The Book. They propose the COCOA Protocol as the vehicle for that control. Copyright owners use it to say, "Show *this* part of my book(s)" -- be that 100%, 99%, 75%, on down to 0%. (Compare to the current choices of 100% or 0%.) The result will be not just legal access, but access to far more copyrighted material than now. Everyone wins.

COCOA requests your help in moving these behemoth corporations:

1) Please SIGN THE PETITION -- worded for brevity -- at:
http://new.petitiononline.com/cocoa/petition.html

Read details at the COCOA web site: http://www.CopyrightAccess.com

2) Please SPREAD THE WORD: Urge others to sign the petition, learn about
COCOA, and likewise encourage others to sign the petition, spread the word, and urge yet others to, et cetera, et cetera.

Please post on your blogs, tell journalists you know, put links on your
web pages, etc. You may copy this article in full if you like.

The COCOA Association is a non-profit organization established by representatives from a number of authors groups, publishers, and publishing industry experts. It serves as a central point for information on COCOA
and distribution/authentication of COCOA records. COCOA was crafted by people ranging from "copyright conservative" to "copyright liberal," giving
widespread appeal to this consensus design.

Thanks for your help! Please sign! Please spread the word!

--Dr. Andrew Burt
Chair, The COCOA Association
(& former SFWA VP, current chair of SFWA's Copyright Issues Committee,
etc.)

James D. Macdonald

11-12-2005, 06:18 PM

If I can boast on one of my fellow Viable Paradise instructors:

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire2005/index.php?id=33227

Ken Schneider

11-12-2005, 06:23 PM

Excellent, Jim. A nice affirmation of V.P'S worth in the climb up from the bottom.

Ken

James D. Macdonald

11-12-2005, 07:30 PM

More important: Around thirty of our students have sold professionally afterward, including one with a Nebula nomination and another with a Campbell nomination.

Lilybiz

11-13-2005, 08:43 AM

Jim, do you think you would ever do a workshop in the western U.S.? And is V.P. useful for all fiction writers, or would you recommend that only sci-fi and fantasy writers attend?

James D. Macdonald

11-13-2005, 05:32 PM

Lilybiz

11-13-2005, 06:46 PM

I was a presenter at Writers Weekend in Seattle this year. If a workshop in the western US asked me, I'd certainly consider instructing.

Viable Paradise is primarily SF/Fantasy. While large parts of writing in that genre are common to writing in general, that's the focus.

Thanks. I'll watch for you. Much of what you say applies to us all, even if we don't write sci-fi/fantasy. If you head out this way, let us know.

Ken Schneider

11-14-2005, 06:52 PM

Jim, Can dividing our writing time between long and short form help with novel length writing. If so, how?

Thanks, Ken

James D. Macdonald

11-15-2005, 12:31 AM

No writing is wasted, first.

Second, writing short form allows us to practice beginnings, middles and ends.

Short form also allows us to play with styles and effects without too big an investment if they don't work.

James D. Macdonald

11-15-2005, 08:30 PM

Minor boast for me:

Something I wrote (http://theblindwinger.blogspot.com/2005/11/what-we-can-learn-from-british-folk.html) was mentioned on the Phil Jupitus show (http://www.bbc.co.uk/6music/shows/phill_jupitus/) (BBC-6).

Sharon Mock

11-21-2005, 09:27 AM

That's exceedingly cool news about Jumper. (And yes, it took me this long to read it because I've been BICing like mad for NaNoWriMo.)

Dawno

11-24-2005, 01:43 AM

Here are the posts that were lost in the migration:

11-18-2005, 06:59 AM Minor boast for me: Something I wrote was mentioned on the Phil Jupitus show (BBC-6).

Jim, to sum that writing up in a few words, What I told my son the day he
went off to college. "Keep your eyes open, and your mouth shut."

Now, another question about writing. Awe come on, I heard you sigh.

Now that I've gained some insight on how other writers write by retyping paragrapghs from their books; this is what I've run into with my own WIP.

I used to be able to pound out several pages in my WIP in a couple hours. Now, I'm thinking so much about show don't tell, and painting a picture, and winding in the plot, that I can maybe do two pages in three hours of work.

I like the writing better, every scene becomes my favorite when I'm done,
unlike before, when a certain scene stuck in my mind as a favorite.

My question? Well, Now that this has happened, would it be within the realm of the norm to be slow, and then, at some point, gain speed again?

And, I assume it would be better to be slow and bring forth better prose, than fast and write rubbish?

Ken

11-18-2005, 07:14 AM

Ken, that's an excellent question. I too am thinking things to death rather than letting things fly. My output is staggeringly low, since I am now so concious of passive, excessive pronoun and random adverbs.

Tri

11-18-2005, 07:22 AM

There's no "normal" speed. You'll find something that's comfortable, and gives you the material for the rewriting and revision stage.

Remember that two pages a day is two novels a year.

Eventually, as you gain experience, you'll automatically discard phrases, paragraphs, plotlines, almost before you've thought of them.

Everything improves with practice provided you practice them right. You know the guys who can fieldstrip and reassemble their M16s in thirty
seconds blindfolded? They started off by fieldstripping and reassembling their M16s very, very slowly, but doing it right every step of the
way.

Oh, and you never stop learning. A year from now you won't be the same writer you are today. Keep reading, keep writing.

11-18-2005, 09:33 AM

Word count

All this stuff is very helpful. Looks like I need to do some reformatting, since mine is justified, not ragged right, and I have no idea about how many lines are on the page. I am at least in Courier 12 double-spaced, however, so there's that, at least.

With MS Word wordcount I'm at 83,000, but since the manuscript is at
391 pages -- if my spacing and margins are right (1" is standard, yes?), then I'm actually probably around 98,000 words. Yowza.

I guess I'll find out when I go home in a few hours.

11-18-2005, 11:25 AM

I used to be able to pound out several pages in my WIP in a couple hours. Now, I'm thinking so much about show don't tell, and painting a picture, and winding in the plot, that I can maybe do two pages in three hours
of work.

I wrote the first draft of my novel in the span of a summer. The second draft has taken me (so far) about three years, and the early chapters of
it aren't as good as the later chapters. I can see the learning curve right before my eyes. I'm slow but getting faster, and the errors that I used
to have to search for are now obvious to me. I'm learning as I go.

I think what I'm saying, Ken, is that you're not the only one. Hopefully that work will pay off in a superior book.

It's my fervent wish that, after putting all this work into the second draft, the third will go a lot quicker! Even if it doesn't, though, I'm glad I
didn't try to shop that first draft to agents and I almost wish I hadn't shown it to my beta readers.

By the way, Jim, loved your post about the English folk songs.
__________________
Petrea Burchard