Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[Sarita]

I save mine to laugh at myself. I should burn it. It's awful!

[James D. Macdonald]

Forgive me for asking, but I'm honestly curious: why would an author want to burn his first novel?

Because it's probably not his best work.

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't finish it, and make it the best you can while you're writing it.

[maestrowork]

One shouldn't never burn their first novel... when you're older, you can look back and have a chuckle.

I wish I had all my work saved... when my parents moved around, they tossed out things they felt was irrelevant and useless, including all my old scribbling, notebooks I kept, etc. All my old books, albums, etc. I have almost no memento left from my childhood! My parents tossed them all away (except for pictures, which were the only thing they thought were valuable)...

Funny, I wasn't that mad when I found out. I was just resigned. I'm envious of people who have a whole attic or basement full of old stuff, like their first love letter, etc.

A few years ago I did find a letter from my girlfriend back in high school... sent to me AFTER I left home and I never saw it until then. Well, the whole experience of discovering the letter inspired me to write my novel...

[tjwriter]

I figure the first novel to be a valuable learning experience. I can work to improve a number of my skills and discover who I am as a writer. I will see this novel to the finish because completing it will provide a great sense of accomplishment and motivation. I can only hope it will be salable, and I will make the effort. But when all is said (or written) and done, the experience will be the biggest part of finishing it.

[triceretops]

Hi Jim, just thought I'd roll my arse into this forum having spent the last five months in non-fiction. My novel is now about 38,000 words, so I need to rub shoulders with some novelators. I've read most everything down stream, and do believe in the Bic method. But I call it FTK, fingers to keys, since my butt in chair can usually sit there all day without getting the screen filled. I'm ex-SFWA, so I'll be in the sci-fi group too. I officially ban myself from the PA thread as of now, and subscribe to this one.

Triceratops

[astonwest]

(Unless published by P*Cough, cough*a?)
Actually, that was my *cough*second*cough*...go figure...

[wurdwise]

I posted this in the Share Your Work forum under my excerpt, then realized it was a pretty general observation, and I would probably get more feedback here, and maybe others are having some of these same feelings.



Boy, this novel writing business is hard.

I am feeling a bit overwhelmed. Believe it or not, I thought I was near the end! I started out in July of 2003, from the viewpoint of more than just Maddy, Grandma, Corey and Daddy had a voice, there were 300 pages and whole lot more story. And I had no intentions of writing a middle reader.

I didn't even know where I was headed when I started, I just knew I had some stuff I wanted to share, which was a mistake for me, if I EVER write another novel, I see that I am the kind of person who needs some sort of outline, if only a skeleton of the story.

I printed out a hard copy, physically cut and pasted for days, whittling it down to the basic story and only 100 pages, starting all over again, with only Maddy, in present tense. I wrote the whole draft life that, only then discovering there was such a thing as a middle reader. Brainy, ain't I? I wasl also advised that very few books were written in third person present, did some research and discovered it was true, gave past tense a shot and saw how much better it read, and decided to change it to past tense.

The novel is 170 pages, I was on page 35 in the process of changing it from present to past tense, moving along at steady clip, I thought, but kept wondering about the opening, what a publisher would think about the first page, and posted it here.

Now, I see how much more work there is to do. I wonder, should I pick up where I was? Changing the tense till the end of the draft? Or should I print out a hard copy now and look for all these info dumps to decide what needs to go, what needs to be moved, what needs to be filtered into the action? The novel happens over three days, and I don't know if that's my problem about trying to tell so much, or if I am trying to pack the first three chapters, which is what a publisher will want to see first, to impress. But I think about that, and I doubt it's true, I have info dumps throughout! I thought that was pacing! Info dump, action, info dump, action! LOL Ecck!

I also have lots of punctuation issues. I have qualified too much dialogue with sentences, I have used those sentences incorrectly as dialogue tags, I still have to look for too much "she" instead of Maddy, as I do with the other chararcters. I see what you mean, Jalpha, about tackling one issue at a time, that makes perfect sense. But I am feeling disheartened this morning, the task appears to be huge.

In hindsight, I should have been reading this thread before I ever started writing the novel.
__________________

[Christine N.]

<putting on thinking cap and raising hand>

Oo Oo, Uncle Jim, pick me pick me!

Sat down to write the second in a series. (the first one is aging). After a rough start, I got a couple of pages down.

How do you not infodump? Ugh, I'm trying to tie the books together, as series do, but I find myself writing this long narrative introducing stuff that's important to this book from the last one. Assuming that people didn't read the last one.

I'm trying to "blend it in" slowly, but it's not going well.

Please help me.

[James D. Macdonald]

How do you not InfoDump?

You don't! Not in the first draft. Dump that info right on the page. It counts for writing.

Then, when you go back for the second draft, take your big honkin' ol' red pencil and cross it all out!

See, the InfoDump is gone.

This is material the author needs to know, but not necessarily the reader. The reader will learn all that's necessary from the character interactions during the course of your book.

[wurdwise]

How do you not InfoDump?

You don't! Not in the first draft. Dump that info right on the page. It counts for writing.

Then, when you go back for the second draft, take your big honkin' ol' red pencil and cross it all out!

See, the InfoDump is gone.

This is material the author needs to know, but not necessarily the reader. The reader will learn all that's necessary from the character interactions during the course of your book.

I can't see how this is possible, or as simplisitic as you make it sound. Sorry, I know you are the pro, and I mean no disrespect, but jeez, the 'cross it all out' part! Some of that info is part of the story, and maybe lots of it should go, but if all you have is character interaction, how do you have a story?

Let me clear up that last sentence. For example, I have been told that I qualify too much dialogue, but I thought of that as a way to blend in the characterization without info dumping. And if don't tell the reader some details here and there, how will you get the story across through only character interaction if qualifiying their interaction is wrong too? Does that make sense? It just seems like you have to have a bit of narrative, mine is too much, I know, but a least a few paragraphs here and there to provide pacing and at least enough info to let the reader know what the heck is going on.

[zizban]

Generally, I write a page or two describing the characters, their back ground, what they look like, what they like and don't like and what drivers the. I keep this open as I write so I can insert information as needed. Of course, characters have this habit of evolving of their own accord and the original info becomes dated, but that's how I start.

[James D. Macdonald]

Some of that info is part of the story, and maybe lots of it should go, but if all you have is character interaction, how do you have a story?

If I can beg your indulgence and quote myself a bit:

Way back in this thread (kindly cataloged by Mac in the Uncle Jim Undiluted thread here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102461&postcount=18)) I gave a sentence-by-sentence breakdown of What I Was Doing in the opening of a story.

This is the opening scene:

Mrs. Roger Collins stood in the visiting room of her home. "Mansion" would have been a better word. The sun shone in through a bay window flanked by French doors. Filmy drapes kept the sun from bleaching the delicate cloth on the circular table in the center of the room. Spiced air from the gardens gently wafted in.

Mrs. Collins was expecting her friend Mrs. Frederick Baxter. She had something she wanted to talk to Shirley about. Last night the strangest thing happened. Mary Collins had known for years that the house was haunted, because there was a window on the second floor that would not stay closed if it wasn't locked. But last night, in the misty dark of twilight, while entering the upstairs guest bedroom, she saw the translucent shape of a young lady, and the apparition looked at her and she felt --

"Mary, dear!"

It was Shirley, being shown in by Mr. Collins. Mr. Collins had retired at the end of the war, and he had been very helpful during his wife's recent illness.

Mary had the tea things ready, and the tea itself, a nice oolong with a great deal of milk and sugar, occupied their time along with the small talk of doings in the town. Mr. Collins removed himself to his study. He had always played the stock market, and played it well. The war had left him wealthy, still quite young, for munitions had been greatly in demand. The prosperity that the whole nation now experienced made his investments more valuable by the day, while the contacts that he had across the nation gave him insights that perhaps other men didn't have.

Now was the time for Mary to tell the story, for that delightful frisson, in the bright afternoon.

"I'm sure you'll think I'm being silly," Mary said, "but I felt such a feeling of sadness coming from that woman. It was like a palpable wave. I gasped and took a step backward. Then I switched on the light, and she was gone!"

"You're so brave," Shirley said. "I'm sure I would have screamed and run."

"I was too surprised," Mary said. "And it wasn't until the light was on that I realized it wasn't a real woman at all; she was gone. She would have had to come past me to leave the room, you know. I looked under the bed and in the closet, and in the bathroom, but she was gone completely. It was only then that I realize I'd been able to see through her."

"You could? What are you going to do now?"

Mary's eyes sparkled, and she sipped her tea. "I thought it would such great fun to have a seance."

"Are you quite certain? I mean, if you felt this sadness ... that can't be good."

"She wants help, the poor thing," Mary said. "This is an old house. After all these years of opening the window, she's finally gotten to trust me enough to appear and ask for my help."

"What does Roger say about your plan?"

"Oh, I haven't told him. You know what a stick-in-the-mud he is."

And here is the line-by-line:


Mrs. Roger Collins [Our protagonist] stood in the visiting room of her home. [I'm trying to show an upscale life, also that this is a woman who's taken her husband's name. It shows a social relationship, and a social class.] "Mansion" would have been a better word. [A bit of countersinking there for the benefit of the deaf old lady in the back row. Perhaps this was unnecessary. I might cut this from another draft, or I might not.] The sun shone in through a bay window flanked by French doors. [Simple description, to contrast with the fancier description that's coming in the next sentence. I'm trying to build a picture of the room.] Filmy drapes kept the sun from bleaching the delicate cloth on the circular table in the center of the room. [Lots of adjectives in that sentence, eh? The sun -- our scene is set in California, and our theme is bringing light to dark places (revealing secrets). Filmy drapes are ones that can be seen through. A mystery is obscured, but will be revealed. A character will later walk through those French doors. The table is the location of the seance that's being planned; its shape represents unity. Bleaching the tablecloth suggests that revealing the truth may not be a good thing. That the tablecloth can be bleached shows that it is not white -- it's not pure. That's the secret again, the mystery that will be revealed by the end.] Spiced air from the gardens gently wafted in. [That garden is the location of the climax. The secret is indeed a "spicy" one. It involves adultery, amongst other things. This room is an important location; other rooms in the house are described far less fully. Here the room must stand for the others -- the picture the reader gets will form a template for the rest of the house.]

Mrs. Collins was expecting her friend Mrs. Frederick Baxter. [Straight narrative, introduces a second major (but not main) character.] She had something she wanted to talk to Shirley about. [Lets us know that Mrs. Baxter also is her husband's property, that we're in a certain social millieu. Tells us the character's name (by which we'll know her for the rest of the story). I say "talk to" rather than "talk with" to show what the power relationship is between these two characters.] Last night the strangest thing happened. [Straight narrative, introduces the plot.] Mary Collins had known for years that the house was haunted, because there was a window on the second floor that would not stay closed if it wasn't locked. [Setting the genre. This is a ghost story, in addition to being a mystery. The window is a red herring, by the way, but it will give our characters something to think about and something to do while the rest of the plot works out. It will also motivate our characters to stand where they need to be standing for certain crucial developments later.] But last night, in the misty dark of twilight, [Hammering home the darkness/obscurity imagery; contrast with the sunny day (though the sun is obscured as well).] while entering the upstairs guest bedroom, [Another important location, used in the run-up to the climax] she saw the translucent [The clarity imagery again.] shape of a young lady, and the apparition looked at her and she felt-- [Oh, yes, indeed. Her feelings are very important in what is to come. But we aren't told just yet what those feelings were, because she thinks she knows them, but she really doesn't. I use the em-dash to show that the narrative is broken abruptly by the next bit of dialog. We're in third person limited, here, showing Mary's thoughts. The rest of the story will be in third person limited from the point of view of another character, who will be introduced in the next scene. This is the only time we'll be able to see our protagonist this clearly. We need to build up sympathy for her now.]

"Mary, dear!" [Dialog, breaking in on, and breaking up, that rather long narrative block we just had. Reinforces our protagonist's name. Reveals the charcter of the speaker.]
It was Shirley, being shown in by Mr. Collins. [Generally, it was is a weak opening for a paragraph. Shirley and Mr. Collins are major characters, but not protagonists. I don't want to take the focus off Mary Collins.] Mr. Collins had retired at the end of the war, and he had been very helpful during his wife's recent illness. [If I were doing this again, I'd have said the Great War rather than the recent war, in order to more firmly establish the time. That "recent illness" is very important, but I want to slip it by the readers. Sure, the clue's there, and it's on the very first page, but I don't want them to pick up on it yet. So, I put it in a weak paragraph that's also introducing Mr. Collins (the villain of the piece, as it happens).]

Mary had the tea things ready, and the tea itself, a nice oolong with a great deal of milk and sugar, occupied their time along with the small talk of doings in the town. [A busy, fussy sentence to show the frivolous nature of our main characters, and to contrast with what worse is to come. Reveals character, too -- these are tea drinkers (affected), who artificially sweeten their lives. The milk makes the tea very light and cool -- again the darkness/light secrets/truth theme.] Mr. Collins removed himself to his study. [Get him off stage, so we can get the rest of the plot rolling. "Removed himself" is affected -- we're putting on airs here. The sentence is otherwise quite plain, in contrast to the preceding one.] He had always played the stock market, and played it well. The war had left him wealthy, still quite young, for munitions had been greatly in demand. The prosperity that the whole nation now experienced made his investments more valuable by the day, while the contacts that he had across the nation gave him insights that perhaps other men didn't have. [More of Mr. Collins' character: "insights...other men didn't have" suggests secrecy (and he has a secret, oh my, yes). We talk more about the money he has ... he's nouveau riche. Perhaps he's a poser? I missed another opportunity to plant the timeframe here: Writing "greatly in demand in Flanders" would have done the trick. Someone who has made his money as a war profiteer is not exactly an admirable man. I'm trying to imply that he's not what he really seems, and is not a good person.]

Now was the time for Mary to tell the story, for that delightful frisson, in the bright afternoon. [Short paragraph, simple style, for contrast. The light imagery again. "Frisson" to show the class and style, and affected manner, of the characters. A weak opening on this paragraph, to contrast with the strong one that's coming, and perhaps make that one stronger than it otherwise would be by comparison.]

"I'm sure you'll think I'm being silly," Mary said, "but I felt such a feeling of sadness coming from that woman. ["That woman" is traditionally the name that wives give to their husbands' sweeties. Sadness, grief, woe -- yeah, we'll have that in spades before the end. Being silly? Yes, that's how Mary thinks of herself.] It was like a palpable wave. [Mary speaks in cliche. This to reveal character. She's shallow.] I gasped and took a step backward. Then I switched on the light, and she was gone!" [I'm hitting the light/dark truth/secrets theme again. Also moving the plot right along.]

"You're so brave," Shirley said. "I'm sure I would have screamed and run." [An ironic comment, when we learn what really happened, and see what will happen. Sets up the climax for the reader. Also reveals character.]

"I was too surprised," [You can say that again, sweetie.] "And it wasn't until the light was on that I realized it wasn't a real woman at all; she was gone. [Truth/reality light/dark knowledge/secrets. And a hint of the ultimate secret here. This sentence pulls a lot of freight.] She would have had to come past me to leave the room, you know. I looked under the bed and in the closet, and in the bathroom, but she was gone completely. [Yes, she's gone. If we want to talk about the young woman as being a character, no, she doesn't act in this story. But she's very important, as we'll see. It's important to me to show that she isn't really here, physically.] It was only then that I realize I'd been able to see through her." [The mystery will be revealed. I'm promising the reader that all will be made clear in the end. Making a deal with the reader -- go along with me, believe in ghosts for a minute, and I'll tell you what the reality is.]

"You could? What are you going to do now?" [Good questions. Get the plot moving.]

Mary's eyes sparkled, and she sipped her tea. "I thought it would such great fun to have a seance." [Good innocent fun. But toying with dark powers. All while holding that light, sweet tea. The sparkling eyes are for innocence. Innocence is one of the things that we'll lose when the revelation comes, when the light reaches the dark places.]

"Are you quite certain? I mean, if you felt this sadness ... that can't be good." [Listen to Shirley, Mary! Shirley is the reader's voice here. And she's right. It isn't good. But, if Mary doesn't have her seance this is going to be a very short story. So, holding the seance isn't such a very bad idea (waking the spirits of the dead, and possibly unholy things, isn't such a bad idea?) that we devolve into an idiot plot.]

"She wants help, the poor thing," Mary said. "This is an old house. After all these years of opening the window, she's finally gotten to trust me enough to appear and ask for my help." [Hoo boy is Mary wrong. That red-herring window shows up again. The rest of the story depends from this paragraph. It reinforces what's gone before, and sets up the rest. Very simple style, straightforward sentence construction. I want the readers to understand this one.]

"What does Roger say about your plan?" [Social construct: Mary is controlled by Roger.]

"Oh, I haven't told him. You know what a stick-in-the-mud he is." [But not that controlled. A deeply ironic statement, here, given what will be the final image of the climax. (Yes, mud is involved, and long thin things found in mud. Long, thin things that had been put there (stuck there, one could say) by Roger.]

[At this point we go to a linebreak. We never do see this promised seance, though we'll be told about it several times, and we will see a second seance in the same location with the same characters. The story resumes after the linebreak some weeks later and three thousand miles away, with a whole new character being introduced. Mary has a problem, a mild one. She wants to find out about the ghost. Working out that knowledge will take the rest of the story. We'll learn along the way that what she thought was her problem is nothing compared to what her problem really is.]


==================

Later commentary from the thread:


This is exactly right. And the window is just a window that doesn't work properly. Mrs. Collins is, in fact, mentally unbalanced. That's her "recent illness."

"The sparkling eyes are for innocence" - I understood them differently. I thought they were for mischief.

This is also implied. It's a School Girl All American Nancy Drew Girl Chums Together kind of image. She's also doing something naughty -- she's planning to do something behind her husband's back.

Their ages can be whatever works for you. What Mrs. Frederick Baxter (named for the owner of the Baxter Building, where the Fantastic Four have their headquarters) does with her purse, and how she greets her friend (air kiss? handshake?) doen't move the story forward, so I skipped it. Imagine what you like, it won't affect the story I'm telling. She's named Shirley for Shirley MacLaine (believer in the supernatural) and Shirley Jackson (author of some spooky short stories, including one about a haunted house). Roger is Brit slang for sexual intercourse, Collins is a mild alcoholic drink. Mary is a very common female name, it also is the given name of both the Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalene (the prostitute).

Mr. Collins will speak, later on, when he meets the next character. Right now he's not important; he's being introduced to get him in the story, and moving around. He'll be on the last page; he needs to be on the first one. We meet Frederick Baxter, once, briefly, later on. He has exactly one word of dialog.

Stick-in-the-mud is also a good description of how Roger dies at the climax. There's a reason I used that phrase (which is also a cliche, further revealing character), as the last line of this scene. Last lines occupy positions of power.

This scene is from a story is called "A Tremble in the Air." It's forthcoming in Murder by Magic (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/murder_magic.htm)edited by Rosemary Edghill, Warner/Aspect, November 2004.

This story brought in $370. If the anthology earns out there will be royalties, but you can't count on that. After an exclusive period, I'll be free to attempt to re-sell it to other markets that accept reprints.

No agent was involved -- agents don't generally deal with short stories.

I picked this one for a couple of reasons. One, it's a recent story so I do remember what I was thinking at the time, and Two, it's a sole-byline story, so all the word choices were mine, rather than a co-author's.

This is the final draft of multiple drafts, of course. The first draft was sketchier. The material needed to support the climax wasn't there since all the details of the climax hadn't been written. Material was added, dropped, and moved.

In the manuscript, the first page break came after "...during his wife's recent illness." (By that point I need to have the editor so interested that he/she will feel compelled to turn the page.) In the book itself, the first page break will come after "... at her and she felt --" (By that point the reader should be so interested that he/she will feel compelled to turn the page.)

Yes, it's true. You really do have that little time to interest the reader. Anything that doesn't move the story forward holds it back. Writing -- storytelling -- is an act of co-creation with your readers. The readers always put in their own interpretations, add things that have meaning for them, ignore things that they don't care about.

I've left two perfectly good explanations for the events in the story, one occult, one mundane. The reader is invited to play with them.

Specifically, I took the window from The Amityville Horror, where it was supposedly a real example of haunting, and made it mundane.

=====================

The anthology this story was in came out around Halloween last year (a November release, it hit the stands in October), did its time in the bookstores, and remains available in the usual ways.

Publishers Weekly called this story "the standout" in the anthology.

Anyone who wishes to read the full thing (we're still in the exclusive period, so I can't give you a full electronic version right now) is invited to pick up the a copy of the book (which has many other fine stories) at their local bookseller, or through their library. (If the library doesn't have it, interlibrary loan will.)

[wurdwise]

By George, I think I got it. You have been saying this over and over, but I guess I lived in Missouri in my former life or something, because seeing it has made me finally realize what you meant. There should be nothing written that isn't necessary to the story. Whoa. Sounds easy, a challenge for wordy people, but one that I am now convinced must be addressed, or no publishy!

Thanks, James, a million!:Hail: (add another to your list of groupies!)

[Christine N.]

Ok, so I'm going to do something I NEVER do, and let you all see the first draft of something. It's the opening paragraphs of the new book.

Understand, this is the second in a series, and the first "next book" I've written. It's producing it's own set of headaches. Feel free to pick it apart, or let me know if I'm on the right track. I appreciate all input :) (note: this is a middle grade book)

Megan kicked Thunder into a gallop. The dark grey gelding’s muscles tensed and he whinnied happily as he took off across the open field. The peaceful quiet of the countryside was disturbed by the resounding rumble of the big horses’ hooves as Megan and Thunder raced through the dew drenched grass, auburn curls flying behind her. Megan Montgomery had become quite a proficient rider since coming from New York to The Parthenon, the English manor where her and her father now lived. Riding was something she had never been able to do when she lived in the city. Now it was one of her favorite hobbies. They came to the end of the meadow and rounded a copse of oak trees, scaring a flock of crows that had taken up residence. They took off in a black cloud of loud caws.

She reined in the big horse, slowed him down to a trot, then to a walk. As they approached the stable, she sat up straight in the saddle and admired her home. The Parthenon’s grounds were beautiful – well tended lawns of emerald green grass and tall, stately trees older than she could imagine dotted the landscape beyond the stables. Between the main house and the stable sat several formal gardens, all awash with color on this gorgeous spring morning. Megan stopped in front of the stables, jumped down from the horses’ back and walked him inside.

A man, dressed in jeans and a flannel shirt, waved to her. “Good morning, Miss Megan,” said Stephan, the stable manager. “Did you have a nice ride?”

“Yes,” Megan replied. She grabbed a towel from the stack just inside the door. “I heard the larks singing down by the stream. It’s going to be a beautiful day.” She rubbed Thunder’s legs briskly with the towel, then his head and neck. Stephan removed the saddle and took it away to the tack room. Megan finished rubbing Thunder down, led him into his stall and filled his feed bucket with oats. She gave him a farewell pat on the neck and headed toward the house.

The manor house was huge, made of dark grey stone, three stories tall, and shaped like a U. The early morning sun reflected off the upper floor windows, winking at Megan. She followed the crushed stone path through the flower gardens. Past the gardens, set in the courtyard created by the shape of the house, was a large reflecting pool. The pool was a bit of an oddity. Instead of modest English embellishments, it was surrounded by classical Greek statues and white columns. Sir Gregory Archibald, the builder of the house and a bit of an oddity himself, had built it as a testament to his love of Ancient Greece.

Megan skirted the pool and hopped up the two short steps to the back door. She stopped briefly in the little mudroom to change out of her muddy riding boots and into her sneakers. Miranda, the head housekeeper, would be very upset with her if she tracked mud over her clean floors. She opened the inner door and stepped into the large, warm kitchen. Maggie, the plump Irish cook who always had a smile, was there, busily preparing breakfast.

The story continues on from there with some dialogue between Megan and Maggie, telling the reader that it's Easter holiday (not spring break, I remembered!) and that she's going to meet her best friend Rachel, blah blah, blah. I think after this part I'm getting handle on it, but this had be stumped.


Sorry for the long exerpt. Have I told you all lately how much I love you? :) :kiss: :Hail: to your genius!

[James D. Macdonald]

Sorry for the long exerpt.

What would you like me to do with this, Christine? If this is first draft of an unfinished book it's way-early for word-twiddling.

I could word-twiddle it as if it were second draft, but I don't know how useful that would be.

And -- please don't be angry if I do twiddle it. Some folks have been offended when my intentions were kind.

[Christine N.]

Please, twiddle away. I'm having a heck of a time getting it to flow into "story" if ya know what I mean. First draft or no, I find that if I get the beginning right, maybe not perfect, but right, that the rest of the book is easier to write. I'm just kind of stumbling around in the dark. Someone please turn on the light! Is it too wordy? Does it need more dialogue? Do you get the sense of where you are, or is it just plain boring?

Suggest, rearrange, twiddle, whatever. :) I won't get mad. Ask my editor how easy I was to work with. I LOVE suggestions. Most of the time I read them and go :Smack:

And I always learn something.

[James D. Macdonald]

First cut.

Can't tell yet what's important, so this is mostly rearranging.

Megan kicked Thunder into a gallop. The gelding whinnied as he took off across the open field. The quiet of the countryside was disturbed by the rumble of the big horses’ hooves as Megan raced through the dew drenched grass, auburn curls flying behind her.

Megan Montgomery had become quite a proficient rider since coming from New York to the English manor where her and her father now lived. Riding was something she had never been able to do when she lived in the city. Now it was one of her favorite hobbies. She came to the end of the meadow and rounded a copse of oak trees, scaring a murder of crows that had taken up residence. They took off in a black cloud of loud caws.

She reined in the big horse, slowed him down to a trot, then to a walk. As they approached the stable she sat up straight in the saddle and admired her home. The grounds were beautiful -- well-tended lawns of emerald grass dotted with stately trees stretched out to the horizon. Between the main house and the stable sat formal gardens awash with color on this gorgeous spring morning.

Megan stopped in front of the stables, jumped down from the horses’ back and walked him inside. The stable manager, dressed in jeans and a flannel shirt, waved to her. “Good morning, Miss Megan,” he said. . “Did you have a nice ride?”

“Yes, Stephen,” Megan replied. She grabbed a towel from the stack just inside the door. “I heard the larks singing down by the stream. It’s going to be a beautiful day.” She rubbed Thunder’s legs briskly with the towel, then his head and neck while Stephan removed the saddle and took it away to the tack room. Megan finished rubbing Thunder down, led him into his stall and filled his feed bucket with oats. She gave him a farewell pat on the neck and headed toward the house.

The manor house was huge, made of dark grey stone, three stories tall, and shaped like a U. The early morning sun reflected off the upper floor windows. She followed the crushed stone path through the flower gardens. Past the gardens, set in the courtyard created by the shape of the house, was a large reflecting pool. The pool was a bit of an oddity. Instead of modest English embellishments it was surrounded by the classical Greek statues and columns that gave the house its name: The Parthenon.

Megan hopped up the two short steps to the back door. She stopped briefly in the little mudroom to change out of her riding boots and into her sneakers. Miranda, the head housekeeper, would be very upset with her if she tracked dirt over her clean floors. She opened the inner door and stepped into the large, warm kitchen. Maggie, the plump Irish cook, was preparing breakfast.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Mrs. Roger Collins [Our protagonist] stood in the visiting room of her home.

And then Barnabas showed up and turned them all into vampires. ;)

[jules]

Interesting changes there. I see that you cut out a lot of the adjectives, particularly where they were already implied by context (e.g. "emerald grass" rather than "emerald green grass"). You also moved the name of the house to a later paragraph, and I'm curious as to why you did that. It seemed to work as it was, to me.

[James D. Macdonald]

Interesting changes there. I see that you cut out a lot of the adjectives, particularly where they were already implied by context (e.g. "emerald grass" rather than "emerald green grass"). You also moved the name of the house to a later paragraph, and I'm curious as to why you did that. It seemed to work as it was, to me.

I moved the name for a couple of reasons. First, where it was there could be some confusion as to whether the house looked like the Parthenon in Athens (or in Nashville) so I moved the name to join the explanation for that name. Second, the paragraph it was in was pretty busy already.


One test I like to run on words and phrases is the "As opposed to?" test:

The emerald green grass ... as opposed to the emerald brown grass?

Same reason for removing "who always had a smile" from the description of Molly. Were there perhaps two plump Irish cooks, and the way you could tell them apart was by the fact that one always had a smile while the other usually frowned? If a description doesn't help differentiate, you should ask why it's there.

[Fillanzea]

Let me just pop in for a moment from lurking and say that I have successfully BIC'd my way to a full 76,800 word novel.

(It's going to expand in the next draft. I underwrite my first drafts).

Not my first, but it's always a good feeling, and it's been about two years since I've had the pleasure of saying that.

[Kate Nepveu]

Ok, so I'm going to do something I NEVER do, and let you all see the first draft of something. It's the opening paragraphs of the new book.

Understand, this is the second in a series, and the first "next book" I've written. It's producing it's own set of headaches. Feel free to pick it apart, or let me know if I'm on the right track. I appreciate all input :) (note: this is a middle grade book)I read YA books but not middle grade books, so there may be matters of genre convention that I'm not familiar with. But, my reaction upon reading, is that I have no idea what the story's about. There's Megan, she's riding, her family is rich, she's going to have breakfast. She doesn't seem to be worried about anything, or planning anything, or thinking about the future, or the past.

What _is_ the story about?

[sunandshadow]

Hi, newbie here, can we ask for a lesson on some aspect of writing in this thread? If so, I would really like a lesson on complex plot structures/shapes. There are lots of tutorials around about how to write a simple plot like a mythic journey or a formula romance, but what if I want to write a sociological plot (the heavy-worldbuilding kind found in many historical and science fiction/fantasy novels) with parallel plot threads following different groups of characters aligned with different factions or in different settings?

I saw a post from last month mentioning a novel containing two romances - that would also require this sort of complex woven plot structure. Especially since I was just reading an article that says in romance novels the romance plot often comes to a climax (lovers get together and stay together) 50 or more pages before the external plot comes to a climax (lovers work together to defeat external threat such as a villain).

So, please sir, can we have a lesson on complex plot shapes? :Hail:

[Christine N.]

Jim, thank you big. I agree with most of those suggestions. And I see others have learned as well, which was my secondary point :) I felt like I was tripping over my tongue, so to speak, to get all the pertinent information out without talking too much.

Kate: The Point of showing this little scene, in my brain anyway is to show how this girl is having a normal day. Believe me, it's going to get anything but normal very soon. She's really not thinking or planning, because she's seeing the setting, reminding readers of where she is, or giving a brief explanantion of how she got here for Those Just Joining Us.

Plus, she's just out for a nice ride, enjoying the day. Smelling the roses, as it were. She does have plans for the day, but I cut the excerpt before we get to that part.

This is the second book in the series. The people that have read the first book will know that beneath the manor house lies a secret library with enchanted books hiding mythological artifacts (that I made up). The books whisk you off inside them. The "normal" is really just a facade. It doesn't last much longer than this, just long enough to get the rest of the characters back into the story and set it all up.

Kind of like what happens to Harry Potter before he gets on the train. You know really, but sometimes a little reminder doesn't hurt.

Then again, I could cut half of it out on the next draft. Who knows?

[Ken Schneider]

Unc, your opinion on POV.

Stay with the protagonist?

Can change to other characters in scenes not containing the protagonist.

Anyone can have internal thoughts, POV?

I am under the assumption that POV it is to stay with your protangonist.

Thanks, Ken.

[James D. Macdonald]

Changling:

Your POV should be the character who's standing in the best place to show the scene. Minor characters make wonderful POVs.

If a scene isn't working, write it from a different POV and see how it reads.

===========

Sunandshadow:

If it isn't too much trouble, can I ask you to go back through either the Index to Uncle Jim or Uncle Jim Undiluted to see what I had to say about Celtic Knotwork as Plot? If that isn't useful to you, we can talk about other ways of looking at plot.

===========

In a moment --

The first scene from the second volume from one of our middle grades books.

[James D. Macdonald]

The backstory going into the first scene of the second volume of a middlegrades book:



Slap! Randal swatted a stinging horsefly that had tried to make a meal from his shoulder.

"One down," he counted aloud. Then he looked at the swarm still hovering in the air around him. "Only about four thousand to go."

The late afternoon sun beat down on the Basilisk, a small country inn a few day's ride from Tattinham, near the eastern mountains of Brecelande. Inside the stable, the air was thick with the stink of manure and rotting straw, and throbbed with the buzzing of a myriad heavy, slow-moving flies. Randal had once been a squire in his uncle's castle of Doun, and most recently had been an apprentice wizard at the Schola Sorceriae, the School of Wizardry in Tarnsberg on the western sea. Now he heaved another pitchfork-load of manure over his shoulder, and wondered why he'd ever left home.

Randal was about fifteen, with the height and the sturdy build that come of being well-fed from earliest childhood. At the moment, however, a film of grey dust covered most of his face, and sweat plastered his long, untrimmed black hair to his head and neck. Randal had started work when a pair of merchants departed and left the stables empty, but the Basilisk's regular hostler—who should have been working with him—had never shown up.

"It's no good," Randal muttered. "I have to rest."

He leaned the pitchfork against the wall of the stable, and rubbed his hands down the front of his tunic. His right palm ached, as it did whenever he performed hard physical work these days. He looked down at the hand, and at the raised, red scar that stretched across it—low on the side away from his thumb, higher on the thumb edge, so that it actually crossed the first joint of his forefinger.

Randal clenched and unclenched his hand, trying to ease the cramp in the scar-stiffened flesh. If only he hadn't grabbed the sharp-edged blade of Master Laerg's ceremonial sword ... if only he hadn't used the magical object like a knightly weapon, to kill the renegade wizard Laerg before his spells could destroy not only Randal but the entire School of Wizardry, if only ... but if he hadn't done those things, he would be dead now, and the kingdom of Brecelande would be held fast in Laerg's sorcerous grip.

Even working here for the rest of my life, thought Randal, glancing about the filthy stable, would be better than that.

He took up the pitchfork again, and returned to mucking out the befouled straw. As he worked, he took some comfort in knowing that tomorrow or the next day should see him on the road again, well away from the Basilisk and its stinking stable, and within reach—at last—of his goal.

Magic.

More than anything else, Randal had wanted to be a wizard, a worker in spells and the enchantments that could change the texture of reality—or, more practically, make short work of clearing out a filthy stable. He had spent three years at the Schola in Tarnsberg, studying the magical arts, before breaking the oldest law of wizardry, the one that forbade a wizard to attack or defend with steel.

His action had saved the Schola from destruction, and the Regents—the master wizards who controlled the School of Wizardry—had not been ungrateful. They'd made Randal a journeyman wizard, setting him on the second stage of the long road that led from apprenticeship to mastery. But they'd also done something else.

They'd taken his magic away from him. Until he could get permission from the wizard Balpesh, once a Regent of the Schola and now a hermit living near Tattinham in the eastern mountains, all Randal's skill and training had to remain untouched, no matter how great the need.



The whole chapter is here (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/WIZ2EXPT.HTM).

Discussion in just a minute.

[Christine N.]

aw crap. back to the drawing board. Is there any way, given the excerpt we already used, to get the meat of the plot into it? I'm racking my brains here people. I'm really sweating this too. I don't think I've ever had such a rough start to a book. I'm thinking about just starting all over again.

Or am I trying to hard? :Headbang: :Headbang: is what I really wanna do right now.

[James D. Macdonald]

aw crap. back to the drawing board. Is there any way, given the excerpt we already used, to get the meat of the plot into it?

Have you gotten all the way to "THE END" on this draft? If not, it's way too early to be talking about Back to the Drawing Board.

[Christine N.]

LOL. Thanks, UJ.

<looking for the Poser Police> Whew, not here yet.

This is what I get for just jumping into the next book before I have a good beginning in my head. That's what I usually do. But the other one was at The End, so I need to do something to pass the time.

Deep breath, start again tomorrow.

[James D. Macdonald]

This is what I get for just jumping into the next book before I have a good beginning in my head.

Get a good ending in your mind. That's even better.

Given this beginning: The ending will include Megan and Stephen, and Megan galloping on Thunder.

[Ken Schneider]

I've got a grand ending to tie my plot together, but I want to rush to it. I find it hard to hold the story back. Like a race horse on the backstretch I want to let it loose and finish. The end chapter is so clear in my mind that it wafts it's way into my thoughts constantly as I write.

Arrrgh, Charlie Brown.

I just had a thought, should I write it now so I don't feel the rush to reach it?
Like write it first?

[James D. Macdonald]

Slap! Randal swatted a stinging horsefly that had tried to make a meal from his shoulder.

[Start with action, and our protagonist, and he's already having a rotten day.]


"One down," he counted aloud. Then he looked at the swarm still hovering in the air around him. "Only about four thousand to go."

[His day is only getting worse. He's in a frustrating situation; no matter what he does, he's not going to make things better.]


The late afternoon sun beat down on the Basilisk, a small country inn a few day's ride from Tattinham, near the eastern mountains of Brecelande.

[An inn, named after a supernatural creature. Tattinham has an English sound to it (in fact, I'm referring to the Middle-English metrical romance, The Tournament of Tottenham. No reason that the readers should know that, but it amused me. We'll be going to a tournament there next. The geography lesson continues ... and before long we'll be visiting both that town and those mountains. Brecelande means 'broken land,' which it is, symbolically, due to the lack of a lawful king. This is again something that's mostly for me.]

Inside the stable, the air was thick with the stink of manure and rotting straw, and throbbed with the buzzing of a myriad heavy, slow-moving flies.

[Yeuch! Gross!]

Randal had once been a squire in his uncle's castle of Doun, and most recently had been an apprentice wizard at the Schola Sorceriae, the School of Wizardry in Tarnsberg on the western sea.

[It's the backstory. Doun is gaelic for 'castle.' Schola Sorceriae is Latin for School of Wizardry; it's translated in the very next phrase. Tarnsberg is Anglo-Saxon for 'secret town.' The western sea is an old name for the Atlantic. We're going to need to know about that castle, because in just a few pages Randal is going to meet someone who knew him back then, and who knew he was going off to school.]


Now he heaved another pitchfork-load of manure over his shoulder, and wondered why he'd ever left home.

[Under the circumstances, woudn't you? Action to break up the huge infodump.]


Randal was about fifteen, with the height and the sturdy build that come of being well-fed from earliest childhood.

[Description of character, early enough so the readers won't have formed too much of their own picture.]

At the moment, however, a film of grey dust covered most of his face, and sweat plastered his long, untrimmed black hair to his head and neck. Randal had started work when a pair of merchants departed and left the stables empty, but the Basilisk's regular hostler—who should have been working with him—had never shown up.

[Sounds uncomfortable. The merchants are going to drive a bit more of the plot in a chapter or so, and the ostler's disappearance is significant. Also puts our character into a poor-me-set-upon mood. Things will shortly get worse.]


"It's no good," Randal muttered. "I have to rest."


[Finally, some dialog!]

He leaned the pitchfork against the wall of the stable, and rubbed his hands down the front of his tunic. His right palm ached, as it did whenever he performed hard physical work these days. He looked down at the hand, and at the raised, red scar that stretched across it—low on the side away from his thumb, higher on the thumb edge, so that it actually crossed the first joint of his forefinger.

[Backstory and description all jumbled together, disguised with the use of the actions with the pitchfork and rubbing his hands. Tunic gives us more of an idea of time period. (This is, in fact, medieval fantasy.) I figured out where the scar would go by actually grabbing a sword.]


Randal clenched and unclenched his hand, trying to ease the cramp in the scar-stiffened flesh. If only he hadn't grabbed the sharp-edged blade of Master Laerg's ceremonial sword ... if only he hadn't used the magical object like a knightly weapon, to kill the renegade wizard Laerg before his spells could destroy not only Randal but the entire School of Wizardry, if only ... but if he hadn't done those things, he would be dead now, and the kingdom of Brecelande would be held fast in Laerg's sorcerous grip.

[The summary of Volume One, for the folks who haven't read it. This book was being offered through a school book club, where there was no guarantee that the others would have been read -- or even available. Each volume has to contain everything. Laerg is from the Welsh, the Seven Sorrows of Storytelling.]


Even working here for the rest of my life, thought Randal, glancing about the filthy stable, would be better than that.

[No such luck. Things will shortly get much worse.]


He took up the pitchfork again, and returned to mucking out the befouled straw. As he worked, he took some comfort in knowing that tomorrow or the next day should see him on the road again, well away from the Basilisk and its stinking stable, and within reach—at last—of his goal.

[The plot shows up! Hurrah!]

Magic.

[Yep, it's a fantasy.]

More than anything else, Randal had wanted to be a wizard, a worker in spells and the enchantments that could change the texture of reality—or, more practically, make short work of clearing out a filthy stable. He had spent three years at the Schola in Tarnsberg, studying the magical arts, before breaking the oldest law of wizardry, the one that forbade a wizard to attack or defend with steel.

[More backstory, and a bit more infodumping. Also asks the question the readers are no doubt asking themselves by now -- why's he doing this the hard way?]


His action had saved the Schola from destruction, and the Regents—the master wizards who controlled the School of Wizardry—had not been ungrateful. They'd made Randal a journeyman wizard, setting him on the second stage of the long road that led from apprenticeship to mastery. But they'd also done something else.

[More summary of the last chapter of volume one. This is because you really have to know what went on to follow this book. Originally, the novel had been a 400 page book, which we couldn't sell because Harry Potter was still ten years in the future and no one thought kids would read a 400 page book. So it was cut into pieces, and the summaries added -- our story so far -- in the first chapter of each volume.]


They'd taken his magic away from him. Until he could get permission from the wizard Balpesh, once a Regent of the Schola and now a hermit living near Tattinham in the eastern mountains, all Randal's skill and training had to remain untouched, no matter how great the need.

[He's going on pilgrimage to do penance. Also tells us what and where the last chapter will be. Pesh is from Peshawar, a city on the Kyhber Pass, since we're going to a pass in the mountains. Bal -- would it be more obvious if I spelled it Baal (The Lord in Hebrew)? Yes, this whole thing is a religious allegory. So shoot me.]

[James D. Macdonald]

I just had a thought, should I write it now so I don't feel the rush to reach it?

Write it now. Write it while the white fire is buring in your veins and the lightning is flashing from your fingertips.

[Kate Nepveu]

This is the second book in the series. The people that have read the first book will know that beneath the manor house lies a secret library with enchanted books hiding mythological artifacts (that I made up). The books whisk you off inside them. The "normal" is really just a facade. It doesn't last much longer than this, just long enough to get the rest of the characters back into the story and set it all up. That library sounds *cool*.

As Uncle Jim has said, there's time and time yet to worry about this. I'd just note that you never know what order people will meet your books in--maybe someone's bought the last copy of the first book on the shelf, leaving only the second book, but the cool cover draws the eye and a reader opens to the first page of the second book . . .

Good luck with getting a draft finished, and I'd be interested to hear what direction you end up going in.

[MacAllister]

Brecelande means 'broken land,' which it is, symbolically, due to the lack of a lawful king. This is again something that's mostly for me Uh-huh, and the look of the word also summons up associations with the
Forest of Broceliande (http://www.francerama.com/en/escapades/broceliande/) that figures in Arthurian legend--which tells me, as a reader, we aren't in Kansas anymore. So to speak.

I always love it when writers do things like that. It shows layers of thinking.

[sunandshadow]

Changling:
Sunandshadow:

If it isn't too much trouble, can I ask you to go back through either the Index to Uncle Jim or Uncle Jim Undiluted to see what I had to say about Celtic Knotwork as Plot? If that isn't useful to you, we can talk about other ways of looking at plot.


Ok, I went and read up on those and also all the stuff about outlining, since that's what I'm trying to do - get an outline written.

Chess doesn't really work for me - there isn't direct black vs. white antagonism in my story. And I'm really awful at playing chess. Chinese Checkers, however, strikes me as a better analogy - I start with a neatly organized flock of pieces and they have to cooperate to migrate across the board and get into a new comfy pattern. The major obstacles are the shape of the board itself (can't simply go foreward) and the other color pieces moving crosswise to me toward their own, not directly opposed, goal.

Celtic knotwork is interesting, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to apply it. I noticed that none of the knotwork examples in this thread are actually plot diagrams - would it be possible to see an example with characters and themes and plot points labelled on it?

Anyway, the thing none of these examples addresses is that a plot is a pattern which is asymmetrical in the 4th dimension (time). As I understand it, a celtic knotwork plot shouldn't be a circle, it should be more like a french braid - starting with a wide array of elements added in spaced out over the first third of the braid, then getting narrower, tighter, more unified and solid until the climactic ribbon and the relaxed resolution of the little tail below that.

[James D. Macdonald]

As it happens the Circle of Magic books (a bit quoted from above) were plotted using Celtic knotwork. Alas, my skill with computer graphics programs is small enough that I can't really do a good picture for you.

If you want to recreate that diagram, though ... make a circle with six points. Join each point, every other point, and every third point. Draw your knot. Make it three-stranded. Label one strand Head, the second Arm, the third Heart. Now label one strand Randal, one strand Walter, and one strand Lys. Then label one oak, one ash, and one thorn.

You will see which will be the main character, which will be secondary character, and which the background character in each book. You will also see the theme of each book.

The series does form a circle. It ends where it started (physically), with the promises made at the beginning kept at the end.

The fifth book (The Prisioners of Bell Castle, reprinted as The Wizard's Castle) contains within it a triple time-loop, built according to the same principles. Someone who wanted to could even reconstruct the diagram from the chapters of that book.

Yes, I got Trinitarian in there.

Watch out also for the appearance of the Holy Spirit, seen as a bird.

How do you outline a complex story made out of various plot arcs? Lay them out on paper. Show them interacting. Show which one is in the foreground.

This is not an entirely mechanical system. Make the pattern pretty.

Or. Write the parts as separate stories. After they're done, see how to interweave them. You can do this by chronology or by character or by theme.

The important thing is to write your book. Thinking about writing is not writing.

[JohnLynch]

Well I just wrote another 500 word scene today (I seem to write in 500 blocks). I'm a tad worried it's going to come out stitlted, I guess that's what re-writes are for (and it IS a first novel so I'll probably stick it in the attic anyway).

Tests and whatnot are a real good de-motivator to writing ;) So haven't written as much as I wanted to. Having said that, after this week I get 1 week off uni. If I don't get some descent writing done then, I'm hopeless.

I happened to be reading the page on Titles just then and thought of the title I give my stuff. "Unnamed" is a common name for my stories. The current one I'm writing was called "Challenge" because it was written in response to a challenge in an e-zine. Funnily enough, it's turned out to be a very good name for the story :P

[Christine N.]

That library sounds *cool*.

As Uncle Jim has said, there's time and time yet to worry about this. I'd just note that you never know what order people will meet your books in--maybe someone's bought the last copy of the first book on the shelf, leaving only the second book, but the cool cover draws the eye and a reader opens to the first page of the second book . . .

Good luck with getting a draft finished, and I'd be interested to hear what direction you end up going in.

Thank ye - it IS cool. That's the part of the story I really want to write. This volume is Ancient Egypt. Not really Ancient Egypt, but the guy who wrote the enchanted book's version of it.

Ok, ripping out the beginning, saving it to a file so I have it for later) and doing something different. After all, who would believe a 14 year old girl would be up with the sun to go horseback riding on her vacation? She'd be sleeping. Then she jumps up and goes to breakfast, where her father tells her Something Important To The Plot.

So I've come to the conclusion that I should write this book like the first one didn't exist. Well, not Not Exist, but is only a shadow. Character descriptions like we're meeting them for the first time, etc?? Is that right?

[James D. Macdonald]

I'd believe that a young lady, especially one who's horse crazy, would be up with the sun to go riding.

Get on with the story, then see where the beginning belongs.

[Christine N.]

<hanging head>

Yes, Uncle Jim :) BIC, it is...

[zizban]

I was BIC last night and while writing, came up with a new story idea. I resisted temptation to even try to outline it. I wrote it down on scrap paper and went on.

[James D. Macdonald]

I could have BICed all night, I could have BICed all night,
And still have BICed some more.
I need to clean and cook but I worked on my book
'Til quarter after four.
I never knew my characters would do that,
Never saw the plot in quite that light:
Suffice it to say, when it turned out that way,
I could have BICed, BICed, BICed all night.


===================

Remember: When the Muse comes to your house she expects to find you in front of your keyboard. If you aren't there, she won't go looking for you -- she'll move on to the next writer on her list.

[FreeSlave786]

Another newcomer who finally made it to the end ... :Trophy:


It's been said before and will be said again I'm sure, so I feel safe adding my thanks to Uncle Jim. This is one thread that actually gives solid advice all the way through - no holding back, no vague suggestions - everything has been shared wholeheartedly by UJ and everyone else. That's rare.

So 'Thank you so much!' sounds like too little. I'm actually :Hail: I hope I can show some of that by putting all the tips to good use. (My first story is done to THE END and I'm sending it to my beta readers at the end of the week. My second one is in progress and my third's in outline form:) )

I have to add that after reading all about Agricultural work, I feel like I finally understood why I write. For years I thought that the words I read in a published book actually came out in almost the same state from the writer's pen! Mine never could, so I gave up countless times.

Now I get excited just thinking about picking that perfect word and pulling out my gun to hold over every phrase and description. I think I fell in love with writing (again) after reading this thread. It feels fantastic! :cool:

[James D. Macdonald]

I think I fell in love with writing (again) after reading this thread.

Thanks, FreeSlave. That's the sort of thing that makes it all worthwhile.

(And BTW, I did write five chapters last night, and stayed up to past four this morning doing it. It happens.)

[Ken Schneider]

I wrote the last chapter. Wizzed it out. It flowed like it had a mind of it's own.

Writing the last chapter gave me more ideas of where I can go with the middle of the book. I love it when the words just flow and the story takes on it's own path. (The Zone). BIC time. I'm going to see if I can zone out again tonight.

Thanks, Jim, for caring and helping us. It means a great deal to me.

Ken

[wurdwise]

I implemented the BIC method last night. I am in the final stages of editing my first novel, and I worked for 7 hours, got up this morning and worked most of the day, about 6 hours. I am about to put on a pot of coffee and see how many hours I can get in tonight. (of course, probably 2 hours of those 13 were spent clowning around on these boards!)

[T42]

As it happens the Circle of Magic books (a bit quoted from above) were plotted using Celtic knotwork. Alas, my skill with computer graphics programs is small enough that I can't really do a good picture for you.

Never mind. I think I need to read the whole thread first. I have plenty of time to sound like an idiot later.

[sunandshadow]

How do you outline a complex story made out of various plot arcs? Lay them out on paper. Show them interacting. Show which one is in the foreground.

This is not an entirely mechanical system. Make the pattern pretty.

Or. Write the parts as separate stories. After they're done, see how to interweave them. You can do this by chronology or by character or by theme.

The important thing is to write your book. Thinking about writing is not writing.

Much doodling later...
http://members.cox.net/wickeddelight/KDcelticknot.jpg

This is only the 4 main characters - I wasn't sure how to weave themes in. Small beads are where rising action kicks into high gear, and large beads are climaxes. So, how do I progress from here to a detailed plot outline? I want to get to writing the book, really I do, but how do I start if I don't know what I'm writing toward?

[Ken Schneider]

I want to get to writing the book, really I do, but how do I start if I don't know what I'm writing toward?

Just write. Let the book come to you. Sounds crazy I know. Start at the start and watch the movie in your mind. What are the characters doing, write it. It will come if you start. Sorry Jim. I defer.

[James D. Macdonald]

How many chapters do you see? How long do you see your book being?

Divide that diagram into however many parts as your book will have chapters.

Say it's twenty chapters of 20 pages each. Divide the diagram into 20 segments.

Think of what your climax will be.

Now, without more ado, look at the first segment.

Write the first chapter with that bit of diagram pinned beside your monitor.

Looks like the chapter begins with Merru, and Lieann joins about half-way through.

You probably want to expand and even up the right-hand side of the diagram so you can see what's in there.

BTW, the diagram is pretty messy -- I don't see it as terribly like a Celtic knot.

Try using this one:

http://members.aol.com/labcallig/items/dotknot1.gif

That's Merru and Attranath at the top left and Lieann and Ravenin at the bottom left. The midpoint far left is where two minor characters join in.

Fit your plot into that diagram. I fear that the diagram you showed me is your plot as it stands. Rearrange it until it's even and regular, with strict. interlacings. Fit your plot onto the diagram above. Alter the plot to follow the curves and maintain the balance.

[sunandshadow]

How many chapters do you see? How long do you see your book being?

Divide that diagram into however many parts as your book will have chapters.

Say it's twenty chapters of 20 pages each. Divide the diagram into 20 segments.


okay 500 pages of book * 250 words per page / 3,000 words per my average scene = ~41 chapters
Dividing my diagram, I get 16, 14, and 11 chapters in the 3 segments of the book.


Think of what your climax will be.


I don't know exactly what has to happen here, but the four characters must work together as a team, combining their unique abilities (creative problem solving, strategy, force of will, and loyalty) to overcome the societal prejudice arrayed against them and gain official recognition as a family. I was thinking maybe they should win a wargame/tournament, but... I'm not sure what would work best.


Now, without more ado, look at the first segment.

Write the first chapter with that bit of diagram pinned beside your monitor.

Looks like the chapter begins with Merru, and Lieann joins about half-way through.


Actually the first chapter is just Merru coming to terms with the aftermath of the initial incident (he wakes up in an alien body, in an alien world, where he doesn't understand the language or have any idea how/why he's there. Chapter 2 is Lieann though.


You probably want to expand and even up the right-hand side of the diagram so you can see what's in there.

BTW, the diagram is pretty messy -- I don't see it as terribly like a Celtic knot.

(snip)

Fit your plot into that diagram. I fear that the diagram you showed me is your plot as it stands. Rearrange it until it's even and regular, with strict. interlacings. Fit your plot onto the diagram above. Alter the plot to follow the curves and maintain the balance.

Well, I agree that the right hand side should be neater - it ought to be a flat four-strand braid but I didn't know how to draw one of those.

The reason I picked the shape I did is that the first 1/3 of the book has two parallel plots in two different settings - so, I don't think I can put interlacings there since the two groups of characters never see or talk to each other. o.O

[Fillanzea]

Structure is really, really hard for me to wrap my head around, so I think this can be terribly useful if I can figure it out...

So I took the liberty of coloring in the knot.
http://www.unc.edu/%7Eehorner/celticknotcolor.gif

Merru and Attranath are purple, yes? And Lieann and Ravenin blue? So... hm... would the top half of the purple represent one character, and the bottom half the other? Or does it not work like that? Red and green are minor characters? Or themes, maybe? I only see one strand at the left midpoint, so I'm not sure how that represents two characters.

I can almost grasp how you would go about putting this into practice, but not quite... what would it tell you about what's in the first chapter?

[James D. Macdonald]

Merru and Attranath are purple, yes? And Lieann and Ravenin blue? So... hm... would the top half of the purple represent one character, and the bottom half the other?

Yep. Or ... add a couple of more colors. At the left-most points, divide so you have an upper purple, and what was the lower purple is now ... yellow.

Same way, divide the blue at the left-most point.

Then divide the red at the left-most point, so you have a top that's red, and a bottom that's grey. (They'll meet again to the right of that small figure.)



I can almost grasp how you would go about putting this into practice, but not quite... what would it tell you about what's in the first chapter?

Introductions of the four characters. Purple is at the very top, so it's stressed.

This isn't mechanical ... it's more of a meditation device, and shows you what has to be in the chapter. How you get it there -- that's another problem.

For your climax: Think of something that would look really good in wide screen 70mm with Dolby sound and a score by John Williams. That will be the climax you're driving toward. You may not ever get there, but it gives you an aim point.

[astonwest]

I think my head's going to explode...

[Fillanzea]

Ooooh.

Thanks for the explanation!

[jlawrenceperry]

I have read through the first sixteen pages or so of this thread, and found some things very entertaining.

Not to rehash, but to remind...

Prologues - I have never skipped them. I sometimes skip Forewords, but not prologues. Maybe that's because I'm a writer that I know there's something in there worth reading. I figure if your editor likes the Prologue, they can keep it, or if they think it's a bad idea, then they can ditch it. I just found the discussion intriguing. I'm changing my prologue to chapter one, though. Just to be safe.

Outlining - That one was covered pretty well, I think. I'm an outliner, though by scene or chapter. It's perhaps maybe an eighth of my novel length, so nowhere near Uncle Jim's, but anyway, I'm raising my hand as one of 'em.

I also had to say SOMETHING about something that I thought was something hilarious:

It is OKAY to say "You are wrong," if you are a person with credentials. Like a whole slew of PUBLISHED NOVELS! It is not rude to say "you are wrong," if that is an accurate statement.

I will say that MS Word puts little green squigglies under "something, then..."
I HATE IT. "and then" IS wrong in prose fiction. You can just tell! It feels clumsy! Though maybe it works in formal writing.

I know, I know, rehash. I'm done. Once I got to page 20, then found out there were 143 pages.... Yeah well I figured I'd come up here to the front.

Hello everyone, the name's Jim. And I too, am an uncle Jim, though perhaps not to you.

[black winged fighter]

I have a question for all the writing gurus: What do you think of flashbacks? Do they work for adding in backstory, or have they become cliches in today's world?

Actually, that was two questions.

[James D. Macdonald]

I have read through the first sixteen pages or so of this thread, and found some things very entertaining.


Welcome, Other Jim!

What're you working on, and what are your goals?

[keltora]

Wandering in just to see what this place is all about.

Will never catch up with all the posts...

Oh, well...

[Nangleator]

Will never catch up with all the posts...

Oh, you should definitely try! It will be worth your time.

[zizban]

I have a question for all the writing gurus: What do you think of flashbacks? Do they work for adding in backstory, or have they become cliches in today's world?

Actually, that was two questions.

Flashbacks are a tool like any other for a telling story. If they work for your story, use them, I am making extensive use of flashbacks for my WIP as those distant events connect with future events in my book.

[HConn]

What do you think of flashbacks? Do they work for adding in backstory, or have they become cliches in today's world?

Flashbacks are like any other scene. Don't use flashbacks to add backstory. Only use flashbacks to advance the plot.

[jlawrenceperry]

What're you working on, and what are your goals?

I am trying to get to the end of my first Fantasy novel right now. I have been working on this thing since college ('97 or so), but never really got serious about being published until around '01 or '02.

What was I doing during all this time? Lots of growing up, lots of writing garbage and getting the garbage out of my system. It has gone through many changes, all for the better, and I've had periods of drought, and unemployment (which tends to put one's mind back on dayjob things). Every time I had droughts I'd keep reading (novels and instruction--things like this thread), and inevitably, by the time I came back to it, I had a new perspective and I retooled it. Now I'm just trying to suffer through my first real rough draft.

I think had I completed a rough three years ago, finished it, then sent it off, I would have been in that lower 90% of the slush. I've had to be purged of my newbie writer sensibilities in order to feel comfortable--although I don't really feel comfortable.

(I used a -- instead of an elipsis. To imply a break, not a pause. Remember that little dustup? TEE HEE HEE :D)

[Okay, that sounded like a little girl... ahem... BWA HA HA HA HA]

I think when I felt comfortable, I was ignorant, and was very sensitive about what was already written down (on my stone tablets, dont ya know). Now that I am sufficiently UNcomfortable, I know I have much more to continue learning, which I think will help me in an editing process.

What are my goals?

I don't know... finish the darn thing? But really, aside from finally getting that under my belt, I would like to be published, obviously. It would be fantastic to "make it" as a novelist, and do that for a living. Really I want to write novels and run a cottage recording studio business, and do a little independent music (writing, performance). That is my ultimate dream, I think. Perchance I see myself teaching at a community college and writing workshops if I can ever establish myself.

(little known secret, Uncle J.D.MacD is also a slight role model for me)

Since I like my day job, I don't think I will be looking for any excuse to leave it. I just want to get some writing done and see what happens. I have a sequel in mind that just makes me want to start writing that one before I get done with this one! (back, Devil, back!) I just had an epiphany about it one day, and BOOM! There it was. It increases the scope of the story and the stakes for the characters, and I think will be better than the first one.

I have plans for another fantasy series that is about Knights and codes of honor and political intrigue and all that good stuff.

I have plans for a Sci-Fi/Space Opera series that sort of has a Cussler-esque feel to it with some Clancy thrown in. Everything I write has a lot of Cussler influence, except without the machismo and cameos. I just love a rousing and fun adventure, also similar to Feist and Weis/Hickman. Anyway, these are going to be HUGE books saved for a time that I am allowed to write books that big. Sort of in the Robert Jordan/Terry Goodkind page range.

And then I have an idea for a modern detective novel, a pirate novel, and a lone hero vigilante type novel set in a fantasy period.

WHEW! Okay, I am done, really!

[sunandshadow]

I think my head's going to explode...

Me too. :( I don't understand how a character's linear, chronological progression from the beginning to the end of the story can possibly be represented by a line which doubles back of loops over itself. I can understand how the ring shape can go with the Circle of magic books, because if you cut the ring like a pizza to get the segment representing a single book, it's more or less linear. But I'm only dealing with one book, and while I understand that a story is supposed to end more or less where it began, I don't think it should take a regular or symmetrical path to get there.

I mean, think of Freytag's pyramid, the peak is on the left side, not in the middle. Think about music - the most regular, symmetrical music is the most deadly boring to listen to. My goal with designing two parallel plots, one offset slightly from the other, was to always have a highpoint be ocurring in one of the two plots, so there isn't a boring lull when a conflict has been resolved in the other plot.

Maybe I'm just not seeing these knots in at all the way intended. Maybe I shouldn't worry about seeing them in the way intended; as long as whatever variant I come up with helps me visualize my plot it 'works', right?

[HConn]

I don't understand how a character's linear, chronological progression from the beginning to the end of the story can possibly be represented by a line which doubles back of loops over itself.

Some protagonists try to solve their problems through the same flawed tactics that they're relied on in the past. Some visit other characters and the conflicts with those characters several times over the course of a story. Some pursue one wrong goal after another in their quest to find a satisfactory resolution.

At least, that's how I read it.

[reph]

I will say that MS Word puts little green squigglies under "something, then..."
I HATE IT. "and then" IS wrong in prose fiction. You can just tell! It feels clumsy! Though maybe it works in formal writing.
Oh, not the old "and then" debate again! Nobody ever wins. All I can do is restate my position. (Maybe a stray newcomer to the thread will notice.) Switching from formal (i.e., academic) writing to fiction doesn't convert "then" from an adverb to a conjunction.

"It feels clumsy" – well, feelings are pretty subjective, aren't they? To me, "He washed the dishes, then dried them" feels and looks wrong and clumsy. If "then" feels like a conjunction to you, why do you have a comma in front of it?

[brinkett]

I use "and then" 99% of the time. After reading the arguments in this thread, I tried using just "then" but it usually felt wrong. The only time it doesn't feel wrong to me is when the writing is trying to convey a rushed feeling.

Now that I'm hypersensitive to it, I notice when an author uses "then" vs. "and then". I was reading Iris Johansen's latest over lunch and she used "and then". She uses "was" a lot too. And sells a ton of books. ;)

[jlawrenceperry]

When one would like to ensure that his rating goes up, one must be diplomatic. Therefore I shall decree the following:

I do not wish to "win."
I am not playing "the game."
I am here to learn, as the thread states unto me.
I shall henceforth no longer mention past controversy with a BWA HA HA HA or a TEE HEE HEE HEE.
Getting published involves much subjectivity on the part of an editor. Ergo, it seems to me feelings are rather relevant.
I never said "then" feels like a conjunction to me. It feels more like a velvet blanket thrown over a carmel sundae.

[HConn]

I wrote a post, then annoyed reph.

I put a phrase in the "reply" box and into the forum. The post went through my eyeballs and into my brain. Screaming, I ran through the door and into the yard.

[jlawrenceperry]

BWA HEE HEE HA HA HA HEE

[reph]

I never said "then" feels like a conjunction to me. It feels more like a velvet blanket thrown over a carmel sundae.
I know you didn't say "then" felt like a conjunction, but if "He washed the dishes, then dried them" sounds okay to you, you're using (construing) it as a conjunction.

"He washed the dishes AND [conjunction] dried them."
"He washed the dishes IMMEDIATELY [adverb] dried them."
"He washed the dishes SOON [adverb] dried them."

I put a phrase in the "reply" box and into the forum. The post went through my eyeballs and into my brain. Screaming, I ran through the door and into the yard.
"And into" = conjunction + preposition. I tried, but I didn't get the point of these examples. Where do they fit in the "then" discussion?

[FreeSlave786]

Hi,

The novel I'm currently doing Agricultural work on is a story about love, self-respect and social discrimination. I'm looking for some input regarding my setting.
I noticed some time ago that there are very (very) few books written from an Islamic perspective i.e. with characters living typical Muslim lifestyles. Most of the books I (personally) have read are stories exposing the oppression of women in Saudi Arabia/Afghanistan/Any other country with Islam as a major faith.

I believe that some writers (e.g. Jean Sasson) have tried to emphasize that the stories are about Saudi women, but I think it's difficult for many to differentiate culture from faith.

It was the infamous Norma Khouri book that actually prompted me to write an article for the AW newsletter (http://www.absolutewrite.com/fun/same_world.htm ) and then start working on a book. I wasn't aiming for a preachy story -- I'm not writing about religion -- I just wanted to write about normal people living lives, facing challenges and overcoming problems, and these people happen to be Muslims.

What I'm wondering then is how much stereotyping I'm looking at dispelling, if any. My main character is a Indian-Muslim woman who wears the veil by choice. She's intelligent, strong and independent. I think I've brought that across through her dialogue, behaviour and the decisions she makes throughout the story, but will that be enough?

From my point of view, (feel free to correct me) it's easier to create a new society with its own norms and rules when you're working with a fantasy world, because your reader knows that that's the big one you're getting away with in the beginning, as in I know dragons don't exist. Now that you're telling me they do in this world you're inviting me into, make them believable.

Is it different if you're writing about a society with 'strange' rules and perceptions that is Here and Now? Not all my characters react as people in other societies do under the same circumstances. Do I need to explain the 'why?' behind everything they do? Actually, that's something my beta-readers should be able to help with…

My main fear is really about perception. Will readers believe my characters are realistic or is there too much of an established opinion out there? Will it be enough if I tell my story well or am I also dealing with something beyond what the craft of writing a good story can handle?

I hope I got my question across properly, anything that sounds offensive or paranoid is unintentional. I'm just plain curious about what I might need to make my story one that can be familiar and welcoming to Indian-Muslim readers, and at the same time interestingly foreign (not alien) to non-Indian/non-Muslim readers.

Thanks!

[Galoot]

Do I need to explain the 'why?' behind everything they do?I don't know the official answer, but if your characters act consistently that's good enough for me. If I were writing it I might devote two whole sentences to explanation, maybe three if I were feeling sassy. The characters' thoughts, words and actions should be enough.

If you're still worried, you might want to include a few scenes from a westerner's POV if it's doable. I probably wouldn't worry about it.

[sunandshadow]

FreeSlave - there are some excellent romance novels about the Amish culture/religion which I remember reading when I was younger - if it worked with the Amish it should work with Muslims too. :)

[HConn]

Reph, "and into" sounds terrible and bugs the heck out of me.

[James D. Macdonald]

Is it different if you're writing about a society with 'strange' rules and perceptions that is Here and Now? Not all my characters react as people in other societies do under the same circumstances. Do I need to explain the 'why?' behind everything they do? Actually, that's something my beta-readers should be able to help with…


There's no need to explain the 'why' of anything unless you're writing a textbook. Just show the actions and the reactions of your characters.

That's the secret of building alien/fantasy worlds too: Don't explain: Show.

================

I don't want to get into the whole 'and then' thing again. This is one of my idiosyncrasies. Consider it religious on my part if it comforts you to do so. For me, and to me, the word cluster 'and then' is always and everywhere clumsy, illogical, and wrong. It is wrong for the same reason and in the same way that the phrase "over and out" is wrong in radio conversations. It can never be correct. Bring a stack of grammar books written by the highest authorities: I'll take a red pen and correct them. Let a copyeditor add "and" to "then" or "then" to "and" in my manuscript and my STET stamp will come out.

End of discussion.

[reph]

I don't want to get into the whole 'and then' thing again....For me, and to me, the word cluster 'and then' is always and everywhere clumsy, illogical, and wrong. It is wrong for the same reason and in the same way that the phrase "over and out" is wrong in radio conversations....
I don't want to get into it in the sense of arguing about it, either. As I said a couple of posts ago, nobody ever wins. I just want people to be aware that preferences differ.

"Over and out" is self-contradictory. "And then" is redundant.

I hope we can all agree that "He washed and dried the dishes" is correct.

[James D. Macdonald]

"Over and out" is self-contradictory. "And then" is redundant.


"And then" is self-contradictory. "And" in that word-group means "simultaneously." "Then" in that word-group means "sequentially."

It is permissible to use "and then" in dialog, to reveal character.

[SeanDSchaffer]

There's no need to explain the 'why' of anything unless you're writing a textbook. Just show the actions and the reactions of your characters.

That's the secret of building alien/fantasy worlds too: Don't explain: Show.


Hello, I have a question concerning the 'Don't Explain: Show,' issue. It's a simple -- maybe stupid -- question really. But I'm interested in knowing: why is it important to show instead of explain? Does it have something to do with the readers and how they view a story?

I'm honestly lost on this, I've never heard this issue explained quite this way before. Could I maybe get some of you to give me some good examples that I could learn from, of 'Don't Explain: Show?'

Thanks in advance, everyone.

:Thumbs:

[reph]

"And then" is self-contradictory. "And" in that word-group means "simultaneously."
Oh, no wonder you don't like it. I never understand "and" to connote simultaneity unless there's a contextual clue to simultaneity nearby.

"He washed and dried the dishes." At the same time? No, presumably washing preceded drying.

"The candle sputtered and went out." Not at the same time.

"Mary received her B.A. from Ohio State and her M.A. from Columbia." Again, a sequence.

"Today I went to the bank and the post office." Nonsimultaneously; sequence is unspecified.

"John won $1,000 at the blackjack table and lost it." Sequence is implied.

"The alien slithered toward us, waving its tentacles and making dreadful sounds." Simultaneously.

[reph]

Could I maybe get some of you to give me some good examples that I could learn from, of 'Don't Explain: Show?'
The classic way of putting it is "Show, don't tell."

Telling: "Pete was old, feeble, and alone in the world."

Showing: "Pete set the grocery bag on the counter and hobbled to his chair. That bad knee was giving him trouble. He'd rest a spell before he unpacked the week's supplies."

The "showing" version is more vivid. You don't feel that the writer's talking to you; you feel you're watching Pete. The writer drops out as invisible. At least, that's what I was aiming for.

[SeanDSchaffer]

The classic way of putting it is "Show, don't tell."

Telling: "Pete was old, feeble, and alone in the world."

Showing: "Pete set the grocery bag on the counter and hobbled to his chair. That bad knee was giving him trouble. He'd rest a spell before he unpacked the week's supplies."

The "showing" version is more vivid. You don't feel that the writer's talking to you; you feel you're watching Pete. The writer drops out as invisible. At least, that's what I was aiming for.


Well, I'll be a son-of-a-gun. I think I get it now. So it's not all about dialogue and all that. I was originally afraid it would all be about dialogue, but if I understand correctly, it's more about not lecturing to the reader than anything else. Am I correct on that?

So something like, let's say a long introduction, would be a waste of writing unless put into, say, an outline or something to that effect? I've always written descriptive intros, thinking it would be 'cool' to read. I guess this is something to definitely work out within my own writing.

Show, don't tell. I always heard that. Now that I have an idea what that means, I'll be able to have fun re-writing a lot of my older manuscripts.

Thanks, reph! I appreciate it.

:Thumbs:

[paritoshuttam]

I hope I got my question across properly, anything that sounds offensive or paranoid is unintentional. I'm just plain curious about what I might need to make my story one that can be familiar and welcoming to Indian-Muslim readers, and at the same time interestingly foreign (not alien) to non-Indian/non-Muslim readers.


Hi,

I am not a Muslim, but I am from India, so I do understand a few things (like, I know 786 is a sacred number for you). What I can observe is that girls from affluent Muslim families do not wear burqa (veils). The ones who wear are from the not-so-well off sections of society.

The general perception among us, I admit, is that Muslim women wear burqa because they have no choice. So if your protagonist wears one voluntarily, my feeling is that she will not be considered a representative, but more of an exception.

Your book might ring true with Indian Muslim women settled in the US or UK. In any case, the Indian Muslim readership in India will be minuscule.

There are exceptions of course. I know that the burqa is becoming popular in Kerala. There was a poet Kamala Das who converted from Hinduism to Islam and gladly wears the burqa now. On the other hand, there are Muslim girls like Sania Mirza, who became a tennis star after losing to Serena Williams in the Australian Open, and everybody is fine with her wearing miniskirts on the court.

So I would say your protagonist would make an interesting character, but how true or representative she is perceived to be, is another thing.

thanks,
Paritosh.

[Galoot]

Could I maybe get some of you to give me some good examples that I could learn from, of 'Don't Explain: Show?'
My favorite book of examples is LOTR, because everyone seems to have read it.

Tolkien could have saved a lot of ink by saying "Frodo found the ring a heavy load to bear," but instead he described how it pulled him down, how the immensity of it affected him, and you could almost feel the weight of it yourself when reading those passages.

Part of showing, rather than telling, is putting yourself in the POV character's shoes as you write rather than standing back and describing it from afar.

[reph]

...if I understand correctly, it's more about not lecturing to the reader than anything else. Am I correct on that?
I think you are, but wait for some of the pros to give independent answers and examples. I have little experience with writing of this kind.

So something like, let's say a long introduction, would be a waste of writing unless put into, say, an outline or something to that effect?
You might put the introduction in outline form for your own use, like notes to work from. A novel that started with an outline where Chapter 1 should be would put me off.

Some writers get all excited about worldbuilding and want to start with six pages about how the Zylarks who had wisely ruled Nudsimia 500 years ago had decided to seek out a planet whose atmosphere contained a lower percentage of unbiffligated hiptosolutes because the increasing mutation rate was getting on everybody's nerves, but the scout ship had run out of quark shields, so the explorers settled in this other place, and their descendants created a new political system, which you need to know about so you'll understand the story, and ...

Readers may exist who enjoy such an opening, but more readers exist who don't.

[Zane Curtis]

Well, I'll be a son-of-a-gun. I think I get it now. So it's not all about dialogue and all that. I was originally afraid it would all be about dialogue, but if I understand correctly, it's more about not lecturing to the reader than anything else. Am I correct on that?

That's part of it. When you start in on a lecture, the language gets very abstract, and that's why a lecture is a problem. Abstract language doesn't provoke vivid images in the reader's mind. And in fiction, creating clear and vivid images of the events in the reader's mind is what you want to do most.

If you write, "The knife was sharp." then that's not really much of an image. It's more of a "so what?" You can invoke the idea of sharpness much more vividly if you write something like, "Dave grasped carelessly for the knife and caught it by the blade. It cut through the flesh of his fingers, right down to the bone."

Ouch. Now that's a sharp knife.

[jlawrenceperry]

I don't want to get into the whole 'and then' thing again.... Yes please let's not. I was not trying to revive a dead horse, only point at its gravestone and laugh.

You know, like, "hey remember the time we got in a big argument about the difference between Dominoes and Pizza Hut, and which one was better? Wasn't that hilarious? ha ha ha ha ha ha...."

Showing vs. Telling is basically letting the character do something to illustrate that which you'd like to get across. Whether it be dialogue or not. Saying "he was old, feeble, and alone in the world" is taking the role of narrator. Writing out the actions puts a reader in the story, and is a bit more like stage direction.

Displaying what the character is doing and letting the reader see it in their mind's eye, rather than becoming the narrator from Bullwinkle.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm honestly lost on this, I've never heard this issue explained quite this way before. Could I maybe get some of you to give me some good examples that I could learn from, of 'Don't Explain: Show?'


"I got in my car and headed for Long Island" doesnt include any explanation for how an internal combustion engine works.

[James D. Macdonald]

Further on showing v. telling:

As the inimitable HapiSofi put it elsewhere (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13954&postcount=7) at AW:

Gala contributed:

Tell: Bambi was so angry at Bob for the way he talked to her.
Show: Bambi slapped Bob's face.

"Honey, sweetie," I said, "you know I wouldn't lie to you."

"The hell you say," I heard her mutter, just before her baseball bat connected with my head.

Tell: Bertha felt like throwing a tantrum.
Show: Bertha stomped her feet, and threw the empty glass at the fireplace.

"What kind of idiot do you take me for?" screeched Bertha, throwing her empty glass at the fireplace and reaching for another.

Tell: She thought it was about time he showed up.
Show: She opened the door, and said, "It's about time you showed up.


"By the time the cab pulled up in front of her house, she had already thrown all my clothes out onto the lawn, followed by my golf clubs. Then she kicked open the front door, and I saw what she had in her hands.

"Stella, please," I said. "Not the computer."

[maestrowork]

Show vs. tell really just boils down to details. The more details you have, the more vivid it is and the more you put the readers in your world. Sometimes it's okay to say "she feels tired." But the best fiction would show us how tired she is (slumping, dragging her feet, etc.) without EVER saying the word "tired." Sometimes it's about pacing. "She feels tired" (telling, summary) is fine if you want the narrative to zip along. Or you can write a whole page of how tired she is to slow down the pace and let the readers really see, hear, smell, taste and feel her....

[triceretops]

I think anything that reminds the reader that an author is trying to help you "feel" something by stating obvious emotions, is a fast fix. I call it author intrusion. Except in the case of dialogue, I do sometimes (very sparingly) use a bit of intrusion.

He nervously said, "How did you find that out?"
Better than saying, "How did you find that out?" He was a nervous wreck.

Tri

[Nangleator]

I don't really understand why "over and out" is impossible.

I was told in flight training that older technology required radio operators to say "over" at the end of their transmissions and "out" at the end of their conversations. Newer radio equipment makes this unnecessary.

Or was it ever necessary? Is "over and out" an invention of screenwriters like "A-OK" was an invention of the press?

Could you see a use for something like that phrase during conversations between spacecraft with a 10 or 20-second time delay? It lets the other person know when they should start replying, or that you intend not to be listening any more.

[cwfgal]

Well, I'll be a son-of-a-gun. I think I get it now. So it's not all about dialogue and all that. I was originally afraid it would all be about dialogue, but if I understand correctly, it's more about not lecturing to the reader than anything else. Am I correct on that?

For me the easiest way to think of showing rather than telling is to imagine myself awakening in the midst of whatever scene I am writing. How would I figure out what is going on? If the scene is a telling one, there will be someone at my side filling me in on all I need to know. If it is a showing one, I will observe and listen and feel and smell and taste my surroundings and interpret what I see, hear, etc. to figure out what is going on. That includes reading body language, listening to dialogue, feeling the "mood" of the room, running my hand over the incredibly soft material on the chair, etc. Showing is painting a picture and letting the reader interpret it (though you can, and should, add in senses other than the visual) and experience it, whereas telling is having a tour guide along for the ride.

Beth

[James D. Macdonald]

I don't really understand why "over and out" is impossible.


"Over" means "I'm done talking and expect a reply." "Out" means "I'm done talking and don't expect a reply."

"Over and out" means nothing whatever.

The prowords "over" and "out" are necessary when you're transmitting and receiving on the same frequency (half duplex). They're good practice at all times.

[Nangleator]

Originally posted by James D. Macdonald:
"Over" means "I'm done talking and expect a reply." "Out" means "I'm done talking and don't expect a reply."

"Over and out" means nothing whatever.

Ah. Thank you.

The prowords "over" and "out" are necessary when you're transmitting and receiving on the same frequency (half duplex). They're good practice at all times.

It isn't in practice in general aviation. It's usually easy to hear whether another has his mike open, and communication is so standardized that it makes use of "over" and "out" redundant.

In fact, care is taken to minimize the length of each broadcast, which is probably why no one says that anymore. Anyone who has piloted near a congested airport knows that the real congestion isn't in airspace. The real problem is trying to get a word in to the controller, such as "please let me come in and land," or "hey, there's a big airplane coming at me."

[reph]

Archived discussion of "over and out":

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/29/messages/151.html

My husband (ex-Navy) says you say "out" just before you turn off your microphone.

As for long narrative introductions to novels, I don't even like it when a movie scene opens with a caption: "Paris, 1878." I'd rather infer the setting from the vehicles I see, the clothing styles, the shop signs in French.

[Mr Underhill]

That's the secret of building alien/fantasy worlds too: Don't explain: Show.There's one important caveat to this I feel compelled to add to this, though it may have been addressed already in this thread, but I am still catching up on the first hundred-odd pages.

You, the writer, must have everything explained to the reader's satisfaction. Just don't put the explanation in the story.

What does that mean? I mean you have all the details worked out somewhere - on paper, in your head, whatever - and the actions you are showing all fit within that model of reality. All writers must do this, but it is particularly important for SF&F because you are creating the world from scratch.

"I got in my car and headed for Long Island" is a good example of this, but think about all the things both you and the reader know about this. Now pretend your reader is living 150 years ago. Presumably you've already established that this "car" is essentially a horseless carriage that runs on distillates of petroleum, and it is not uncommon for people to travel at 70 miles per hour. So the reader of 1855 says a-ha! Since it is 35 miles from City Hall in Manhattan to the city of Babylon, Long Island, the trip will only take half an hour!

Well, no. At this point you might feel compelled to explain that it will take some time to get out of the city, or at least onto the highway, due to lights and traffic and so forth, and in fact it will take somewhat longer than an hour under the best circumstances.

But instead of explaining, you should do what would work for a modern reader: show the protagonist waiting in his car at a light that takes a good five minutes before he can turn onto Houston Street; show his frustration with the accident stopping traffic on FDR drive. And there's no need to justify the time it takes with a detailed route and velocity-time profile. You have it worked out, so it is simply what happens.

This is a real-world example, but it's the same for a future, alien or fantasy world. In this example you are working out the details consistent with a particular model of reality – the model you already have in your head of how early 21st century automobiles, cities and roads work. But that model didn't get there because somebody sat down and explained it all to you over an intense week-long seminar, it's there from experience. So when you're writing SF&F, you first need to construct a realistic model of how your imagined world works in your own head. Then your job is presenting readers with enough experiences to reconstruct that same model themselves. Explain it and they'll forget and misunderstand. Show them, and keep showing them things that work according to the same equations and mental maps, and eventually they'll get it. It's more fun that way, too.

I suspect the first step is the reason many people feel compelled to start stories with the several-page explanation of the "how the Zylarks who had wisely ruled Nudsimia 500 years ago" variety. They instinctively know that they need to get this all worked out, so they write it down. That's good. I suppose what I'm trying to say here boils down to this: don't ever skip this step. But, this is not the beginning of the ms. Take it and post it on the corkboard over your desk where you can refer back and refine it as needed. Now you can start writing about the things that happen in your story.

What I've said is focused on SF&F, but I suspect it is the same for all fiction writers. You can take shortcuts since contemporary readers already have their model of how the modern world works established. But you will at least have to establish characters and how they think and behave. And perhaps you will have to create a fictitious neighborhood in Des Moines, or get people's heads around the corporate culture at ABWidgetCo. And you might just want to adjust your readers' model of how the real world works while you're at it. That's what it's all about in the end, isn't it?

[black winged fighter]

For fantasy/sci-fi world building, I find that minor characters offer excellent opportunities for injecting world structure. They have minor, everyday experiences and talk about them, a sidelines-commentary on the world. Also, pubs (or space bars, in SF) provide an easy fix to insert some explanation dialogue.
And, as Mr. Underhill says, everday activities are the key to crafting a believable world.

[wurdwise]

Sorry to interrupt the SF fantasy subject, carry on, but I was hoping by moving this question here, I might get an answer. I posted it in children's writing, but nobody bit. Hopefully, since there's more action here, I can get some advice. Thank you, and good evening. :heart: I really need some guidance. I keep hearing that my 13 year old protagonist seems younger, and maybe she should be. I was informed when I started writing for middle readers that even though the readership is 9-12, they like to read stories about someone older than them, in other words, that you should write up to them, not down. I agree with that. What I am thinking of doing is changing Maddy's age to 12, and I guess that means my readership would be, what, 8-11 year olds? Is that still considered a middle reader? And if not, what is it considered in the genre world? And this is very important, would a sixth grade class have an end of school dance? Is that realistic? This is sounding more and more like the solution to my problem, because my character is the same throughout the novel and I want her to stay that way, even if she needs to lose a year! Some of you seasoned experts, please offer your opinions and feedback.

Thanks, Denise

[dblteam]

And this is very important, would a sixth grade class have an end of school dance? Is that realistic?

Thanks, Denise

My sixth grader has a dance coming up. He has no interest in going, of course. There will be girls there. :D

Valerie

[shmegegge]

Hi. This is my first post. I just found this thread, and it's amazing. Thank you all for being amazing and informative.

I was curious about something, but it's related to magazine publishing. I hope that's ok.

Is there a general rule of thumb for how a magazine will feel about vulgarity in a story?

I ask because, while there's certainly something to be said for not including them in certain types of stories, for the most part I've never encountered a community where it's youngsters didn't swear, and excessively.

I'm 25 and, while not necessarily a youngster, I and almost everyone in my age group that I know swear all the time. Furthermore, we swore even more when we were young enough to get in trouble for it.

Principally, I'm worried because when I read a story and encounter some curse-substitute or euphemism (darn, flarn, fraggin', etc...), I'm immediately jarred out of the story and have to work to re-immerse myself. This happens whenever I encounter just about any arbitrary language substitution in a story, (characters speaking english (or common or whatever) the entire time and then referring to some place or phenomenon with an italicized local colloquialism that's made up would be the classic example.) but fake swear words in particular bother the fleboble out of me. (See?! How unnatural does that read?!) This doesn't include well thought out languages developed for deeply and richly imagined epic stories, (Fremen in Dune, any of a number of examples in LOTR) but almost anything else. I know that curses have a similar effect on a lot of people, though. Hence my dilemma.

So, if my story involving youngsters has them swearing often, am I asking for a rejection? Would I be asking for a rewrite without curses in it? Sure, every magazine/publisher has their own policy, but is there a general opinion that the majority seem to hold?

I searched this thread up and down (as I was able. I simply don't have the time to read every page of it through and through.) and couldn't find this question asked, here. If it's a duplicate question, though, I'm very sorry.

[Rose]

Is there a general rule of thumb for how a magazine will feel about vulgarity in a story?
You might also try posting this question in the Freelance Writing forum -- that's where us magazine writers tend to hang out. And welcome to AW!

[wurdwise]

My sixth grader has a dance coming up. He has no interest in going, of course. There will be girls there. :D

Valerie


LOL, that's exactly what a friend in my small writer's group said. I think I've decided to make her 12 and have them go roller skating. It's a small town, that's about all there is to do, and you roller skate to music. I have found most of the answers to my question already, but thanks for the reply...

[maestrowork]

You, the writer, must have everything explained to the reader's satisfaction. Just don't put the explanation in the story.
The author should know everything. The readers don't have to.

[FreeSlave786]

There's no need to explain the 'why' of anything unless you're writing a textbook. Just show the actions and the reactions of your characters.


I've tried to do a lot of showing throughout the book. I guess I'll have to let my beta readers (especially those outside my cultural circle) help me to pick out the bits that have problems.

FreeSlave - there are some excellent romance novels about the Amish culture/religion which I remember reading when I was younger - if it worked with the Amish it should work with Muslims too

sunandshadow, do you happen to remember titles/authors of any of them?

and finally,

The general perception among us, I admit, is that Muslim women wear burqa because they have no choice. So if your protagonist wears one voluntarily, my feeling is that she will not be considered a representative, but more of an exception.

...

So I would say your protagonist would make an interesting character, but how true or representative she is perceived to be, is another thing.

thanks,
Paritosh.


See, that is exactly what I've been thinking. I knew when I started the book that I would need to deal with this aspect. I think it's because there haven't been many positive books about these so-called exceptions.

That's partly what drives me to make sure I give it my best -- the challenge to bringing out this 'world' that DOES exist and amazingly, is unknown to so many :)

Thanks all!

[Christine N.]

LOL, that's exactly what a friend in my small writer's group said. I think I've decided to make her 12 and have them go roller skating. It's a small town, that's about all there is to do, and you roller skate to music. I have found most of the answers to my question already, but thanks for the reply...

The protag in my first book is 11. When I wrote it I didn't even give a thought to it, she was just 11 and that's the way she came out.

But since it's a fantasy, her age doesn't really play that much into it. It's not like the whole book is about her being in sixth grade. If you're writing a "real world" book, then I would go with older.

My editor did ask if we could make her 13, but it never really got anywhere, I guess b/c it's not that really a big part of the story. Kids will read it if it's interesting.

[Shiny_Penguin]

I guess that means my readership would be, what, 8-11 year olds? Is that still considered a middle reader? And if not, what is it considered in the genre world?

I can't tell you if that's a middle reader, but my son is 7 1/2 and in 2nd grade. Most of his classmates are 8 (he's the youngest), so they would be the low end of what ou're guessing your readership to be. He reads short chapter books like James and the Giant Peach and Captain Underpants. I'm not up on the lingo for children's lit, but I would guess that's not middle reader (than again, what do I know?) I just read Midnight for Charlie Bone and I've seen that listed as ages 7-10

[James D. Macdonald]

Is there a general rule of thumb for how a magazine will feel about vulgarity in a story?

Read the magazine you're submitting to. Get copies of their guidelines, and follow them.

Realism: Remember that dialog in literature doesn't sound like natural speech. Dialog is a literary convention.

[black winged fighter]

Uncle Jim, would you mind sharing how many different novels you wrote before submitting for the first time?

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, would you mind sharing how many different novels you wrote before submitting for the first time?

One that's never been submitted.

[jlawrenceperry]

One that's never been submitted.

Moral of the story for us?

You just gotta submit that thing! One only learns by doing!

"You gotta have faith-a-faith-a-faith-ah...."

(How did George Michael get into this discussion?)

[James D. Macdonald]

Moral of the story for us?

You just gotta submit that thing! One only learns by doing!


Well, no. In not submitting my first novel I've joined the ranks of such literary greats as Hemingway, who didn't submit his first novel either.

Far too many writers fail to burn their first books. (Exception: If you personally are a genius, and your first novel is briiliant.)

Entirely too many authors who have failed to burn their first novel then spend ten years trying to sell it rather than write a second novel.

[jlawrenceperry]

Entirely too many authors who have failed to burn their first novel then spend ten years trying to sell it rather than write a second novel.

Okay, true. I was thinking of your subsequent novels, anyway. Perhaps the important thing is that you only wrote one novel before you had the faith to submit the rest of them?

The novel I'm working on right now is still almost the same story, but so different from the first attempt that it might as well be my second.

Can you call it a novel if you never submitted it? Or is it just a big stack of garbage prose? That's how I see my first attempt. I don't even dignify that thing with the word "novel."

[Christine N.]

I never finished my first novel. Only got halfway through. I was thinking about going back one day and cleaning it up, but then again, perhaps I'll leave it as a sacrifice to the writing gods.

[jlawrenceperry]

Trust me, I sacrificed a ton of the old plot and details to the writing gods. It felt good. A lot like purging. Except without the painful sharp elements.

[James D. Macdonald]

Can you call it a novel if you never submitted it? Or is it just a big stack of garbage prose? That's how I see my first attempt. I don't even dignify that thing with the word "novel."

Sure you can call it a novel. If it pleases you to do so.

[bkrrh85]

Hey, I know what you guys mean. I packed my first novel into a non-transparent box so I wouldn't have to look at its pages! I shudder to think that I had the unmitigated gal to even send it out!!! But, I did get one long handwritten response on it, so maybe sometime in the next forty years or so, I'll dust it off and look at it again!

Ranneh

[jlawrenceperry]

40 years? what's that? Time in the wilderness before entering the promised land? If it's a good story, recycle it as soon as it seems right, or at least recycle it in your head and see if it sounds better.

[zizban]

My first novel is in a box in a closet. I someone steal ideas from it.

[bkrrh85]

Forty years . . . drew it out of my head. Very hypothetical. It's just that's how long I think it would take to rework the thing into something worth sending out, because I don't plan on spending any time on it right away!!

Ranneh

[James D. Macdonald]

40 years? what's that? Time in the wilderness before entering the promised land? If it's a good story, recycle it as soon as it seems right, or at least recycle it in your head and see if it sounds better.

Recycle it? If you must. A better idea might be a different story with different characters in a different situation.

[E.G. Gammon]

Jim,

You know all about my novel series - how many characters there are and the complexity of the story/plot. I'd appreciate some of your wisdom on the balance of character and plot...

Also, does anyone know of any books with a LARGE cast of characters that you could recommend to me? My series has a little over 80 characters, almost 60 at one time (the reason being, it's a supernatural fantasy - a genre where death is pretty much required - mixed with a serial killer mystery - I need a lot of characters so I can kill off a good chunk of them) and I would like to read some novels to see how others writers handled a large cast of characters.

Thanks!

[James D. Macdonald]

How many of those characers are major characters?

How many are just walk-ons?

[black winged fighter]

EGGammon, I suggest the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. Large cast of characters, long, involved plots, happening over many books. With each book, new characters are added, and some are subtracted. The characters are handled pretty well.

[E.G. Gammon]

How many of those characers are major characters?

How many are just walk-ons?

MOST of them are main characters AT CERTAIN POINTS. The series (right now) will have seven novels. The first novel has around 50 characters, some who are just minor ones. There are several main character deaths within the first book, then during the last chapter, I kill off 8 main characters. The next book picks up where the first left off - those who were minor characters start to become main characters and others are picked off by supernatural means or the serial killer. The entire cast of characters is never together ALL AT ONCE. Some show up later, some of them are killed, or some leave town to make way for other characters and those who left, eventually return, when the time is right.

[brinkett]

I don't know how your series progresses, obviously, but if you get me to care about your characters, I'd definitely be p*ssed off if you keep killing most of the main ones off. By book 2 or 3, I won't want to invest emotionally in any of the characters because I won't see the point, so I'd stop reading the series. Killing off a main character here and there is okay, but constantly killing them off probably won't work too well for a soap opera series, where caring about the characters and their lives is key. I mean, it sounds like you're killing off at least ten main characters in the first book. If most everyone I care about is dead, why read book 2? Just my opinion, of course.

[E.G. Gammon]

I don't know how your series progresses, obviously, but if you get me to care about your characters, I'd definitely be p*ssed off if you keep killing most of the main ones off. By book 2 or 3, I won't want to invest emotionally in any of the characters because I won't see the point, so I'd stop reading the series. Killing off a main character here and there is okay, but constantly killing them off probably won't work too well for a soap opera series, where caring about the characters and their lives is key. I mean, it sounds like you're killing off at least ten main characters in the first book. If most everyone I care about is dead, why read book 2? Just my opinion, of course.

I didn't say you necessarily care (in a good way) about all of them. A couple are the "villains" of the first book. And others' deaths just set up things to come. There is a lot of death in the first book but the rest of the books are about the consequences/after effects. The series isn't a blood bath or anything. Yes, a lot of characters die in Book 1, but they don't in novels after it. If my series was one episode of a tv show, the first book would just be the "teaser."

And you said: "I mean, it sounds like you're killing off at least ten main characters in the first book. If most everyone I care about is dead, why read book 2?" 10 of more than 50. There are plenty left behind after the kill-off and more to come. Plus there is a growing mystery that will (I assume) draw readers in.

The reason why I kill off so many main characters in the first book is because in later books, if a character is in trouble (for instance if one is dangling off a cliff - this is no where in my series) I want readers to feel for the character's life. If I never killed off any main characters, you would KNOW the character in trouble wasn't going to die and you would read the scene like this: "Oh, he's just dangling off a cliff. Someone will come along and save him. He's a main character. He won't die."

[James D. Macdonald]

E.G. -- How far have you progressed? Have you reached the end of the first book yet? The second?

Maybe reading War and Peace would help you in working with large casts. Maybe not. But I tell you for true: It won't teach you a tenth as much as writing the novel.

So ... what have you gotten done so far? It doesn't have to be finished and polished, but do you have first draft yet?

[E.G. Gammon]

E.G. -- How far have you progressed? Have you reached the end of the first book yet? The second?

Maybe reading War and Peace would help you in working with large casts. Maybe not. But I tell you for true: It won't teach you a tenth as much as writing the novel.

So ... what have you gotten done so far? It doesn't have to be finished and polished, but do you have first draft yet?

I'm getting there. I have a lot of passages written and printed and I'm trying to organize them. I have all of the "scenes," it's just finding out where they go that's taking so long. It's like I have a huge puzzle, and I'm putting the pieces together. I also wanted to hold off finishing the first book until I did a little research and reading on how other writers tackled a large cast of characters and an involved plot.

[brinkett]

And you said: "I mean, it sounds like you're killing off at least ten main characters in the first book. If most everyone I care about is dead, why read book 2?" 10 of more than 50. There are plenty left behind after the kill-off and more to come. Plus there is a growing mystery that will (I assume) draw readers in.

50 main characters is a lot. It'll take a huge amount of skill to introduce 50 characters in a single book (of reasonable length) so that the reader will care about all of them. Are you sure you mean 50 main characters?

[E.G. Gammon]

50 main characters is a lot. It'll take a huge amount of skill to introduce 50 characters in a single book (of reasonable length) so that the reader will care about all of them. Are you sure you mean 50 main characters?

Ah... you understand my dilema. There are 50 main characters, well most of them. Soap operas have a large cast. During this project's creation, I never thought I would be faced with this problem, having to introduce so many characters in so few words. I thought it could be done in 100s of episodes not one novel. And I think you hit the problem right on the head here: of reasonable length. I don't expect my first novel to be "of reasonable length." There's no way it can be. Parts of the book aren't even written yet and I've exceeded 100,000 words. The length and the fact that it's a series with novels that aren't stand-alone novels are two problems I will face when trying to get it published. But, I am confident that the amazing, epic story I have created will help agents/publishers look past all that. Only time will tell.

[maestrowork]

50 main characters? Good lord. Even if you do have a large cast (soap opera, war and peace, space opera, whatever) you still should focus on a handful. Look at Star Wars... sure a lot of them are more than just "minor" characters -- Yoda, Obi-Wan, The senate, etc. -- but when you examine it closely, you'll realize we're only folllowing a handful (Darth Vader, Leia, Solo, Luke)... the supporting cast is there to support and advance the story. They're not focal characters.

Egg, I do think you have a spiral out of control problem here. I might be wrong, but 50 characters? And at 100K you're still nowhere near done?

You'll be testing your readers' patience... maybe you should consider writing a serial instead.


;)

[E.G. Gammon]

50 main characters? Good lord. Even if you do have a large cast (soap opera, war and peace, space opera, whatever) you still should focus on a handful. Look at Star Wars... sure a lot of them are more than just "minor" characters -- Yoda, Obi-Wan, The senate, etc. -- but when you examine it closely, you'll realize we're only folllowing a handful (Darth Vader, Leia, Solo, Luke)... the supporting cast is there to support and advance the story. They're not focal characters.

Egg, I do think you have a spiral out of control problem here. I might be wrong, but 50 characters? And at 100K you're still nowhere near done?

You'll be testing your readers' patience... maybe you should consider writing a serial instead.


;)

Maybe all 50 aren't MAIN characters. There is one I REALLY focus on, from the beginning to the end (of the series). Then there are characters a little less important than that one (still main in a "supporting" role, like you said), then there are some minor and the "occasional appearance" ones. If you grouped my characters into "MAIN" and "MINOR" then most of them would be MAIN. But, I guess there are levels in between those two divisions.

I am a little over 100K but WAY OVER half-way done. I have pretty much every scene written out, but they aren't organized. They are just in pieces, and I have to figure out where they go in the story. I've been holding off finishing it, until I can get all of these problems straight.

What's the difference between a SERIES and a SERIAL?

[maestrowork]

A series is like Harry Potter...

A serial is TV... episode after episode, and eventually you have volumes. I think the Dark Tower series were originally serials? I could be wrong....

[E.G. Gammon]

A series is like Harry Potter...

A serial is TV... episode after episode, and eventually you have volumes. I think the Dark Tower series were originally serials? I could be wrong....

You may be confusing Dark Tower with The Green Mile (originally published in "volumes" each being released only a few months apart, instead of over a year apart like your average novel series). So a serial novel series would mean MORE, but SHORTER novels?

[James D. Macdonald]

E.G. if this is the book that's filling your heart, let it out. Write it fully, the best that you can. Perhaps you'll publish this one, perhaps you'll publish others. But until you've written this one you won't know what you have and what you can do.

[E.G. Gammon]

E.G. if this is the book that's filling your heart, let it out. Write it fully, the best that you can. Perhaps you'll publish this one, perhaps you'll publish others. But until you've written this one you won't know what you have and what you can do.

I REALLY think that with a lot of hard work, I can pull this off, no matter how hard it sounds. I really do. Ok, I'm going to stop dwelling on how hard this is going to be, and just do it.

[bkrrh85]

EGG--

I have occasionally read books with very large casts of characters, but I sure don't like to. Inevitably, three of their names start with the same letter, they're all men (or women), all tall dark and handsome, or whatever. I have a hard time keeping track of a rather reduced cast of characters (less than 50), never mind such a huge amount.

How on earth do you keep track of all them???? AND, there's all the details about each of them. They can't ALL possibly be major characters. The book I'm working on has four major, major characters--occasionally one gets killed or maimed, and another pops in at the right moment, along with a handful of minor, and somewhat more than minor (but not major), characters.

The thing I find interesting is that, now that I have finished my first draft and am reworking my chapters, my characters are so much more familiar to me and I am able to "update" them in my revisions, and they become more real and alive and individual. That, I think, is a distinct plus!!

Happy writing,
Ranneh

[E.G. Gammon]

EGG--

I have occasionally read books with very large casts of characters, but I sure don't like to. Inevitably, three of their names start with the same letter, they're all men (or women), all tall dark and handsome, or whatever. I have a hard time keeping track of a rather reduced cast of characters (less than 50), never mind such a huge amount.

How on earth do you keep track of all them???? AND, there's all the details about each of them. They can't ALL possibly be major characters. The book I'm working on has four major, major characters--occasionally one gets killed or maimed, and another pops in at the right moment, along with a handful of minor, and somewhat more than minor (but not major), characters.

The thing I find interesting is that, now that I have finished my first draft and am reworking my chapters, my characters are so much more familiar to me and I am able to "update" them in my revisions, and they become more real and alive and individual. That, I think, is a distinct plus!!

Happy writing,
Ranneh

How do I keep track of them all? I've been living with these characters for over seven years. I know everything about them. I guess because I have been writing them and their stories for so long, it may be easier for me to describe them in novel form, because I have SO MUCH in my mind of what they look like, who they are as people, and what they mean to the other characters. And, unfortunately, they are all pretty major characters. Book One introduces 2 MAJOR stories plus all of the character subplots. As the series progresses, the 2 MAJOR stories become one, and we find out those seemingly unconnected "subplots" interconnect and link to the major story. Over seven years... the story is very well developed - very involved and complex. Almost everyone is a major character at one point. There are some that aren't. And there is one character who is the MAIN focus over ALL of the characters. If you want to look at it like this: there's one main character, a slew of supporting ones (on the verge of being main characters) and several minor.

[maestrowork]

A better question: how do you ensure that your readers can keep track of them?

[bkrrh85]

A better question: how do you ensure that your readers can keep track of them?

I wonder the same thing! You may have lived with them for seven years, but your readers certainly haven't. BTW, are any of these published works, yet? If not, perhaps it is time to introduce the world to some of these folks, before you add yet more!

Ranneh

[wurdwise]

I'm thinking the same thing. Seven years is a long time and this is a highly complex project you've worked very hard on, that's easy to disern. Maybe it's time these characters got a road test.

[Kate Nepveu]

E.G. Gammon, George R.R. Martin's A Song of Fire and Ice series has a huge cast, many members of which get killed off.

I've stopped reading it because it's too much to keep track of, even with the wholesale slaughter in the most recent book.

[E.G. Gammon]

BTW, are any of these published works, yet? If not, perhaps it is time to introduce the world to some of these folks, before you add yet more!

I'm thinking the same thing. Seven years is a long time and this is a highly complex project you've worked very hard on, that's easy to disern. Maybe it's time these characters got a road test.

No, none of this has been published yet.

And how would I "introduce the world to some of these folks" and give "these characters a road test?" if my work isn't really finished?

[James D. Macdonald]

And how would I "introduce the world to some of these folks" and give "these characters a road test?" if my work isn't really finished?

Short stories.

[E.G. Gammon]

Short stories.

Do you mean just a couple short stories, trying to get them published in anthologies or magazines or do you mean a short story collection, trying to get it published as a novel?

[reph]

For comparison, Les Misérables has a big cast: one main character, several other important characters, and a considerable number of lesser characters who are more than walk-ons. It's in two volumes.

[maestrowork]

Dr. Zhivago has a big cast, too. But only a handful of main characters.

[wurdwise]

Many mags post excerpts from novels. I'm not sure if that's what Uncle Jim had in mind, but it's a viable option, IMO.

[E.G. Gammon]

Ok, I'm throwing this idea out there for input.

My novel series has a battle between good and evil, with a character finding out at the beginning of Book One that he/she's interest in magic may not have been accidental. Something happened "a year ago" that introduced magic to this character. What if I write a stand-alone, prequel novel, following this character's arrival into the town my novel series takes place in, the incident that introduced magic to him/her, and the events that lead up to the beginning of my novel series? I could use this prequel as a sort of introduction to the many characters that are the focus of my novel series. It would be completely stand-alone and would introduce the world to some of the characters.

[James D. Macdonald]

Do you mean just a couple short stories, trying to get them published in anthologies or magazines or do you mean a short story collection, trying to get it published as a novel?

I mean single, stand-alone short stories, a couple of characters each. Beginnings, middles, ends. Try the magazines and any appropriate magazines.

Collections are kinda a tough market.

----------------

The prequel novel -- only if it's truly stand-alone. A satisfying climax with the loose ends tied in a pretty bow.

[Mr Underhill]

E.G. Gammon, George R.R. Martin's A Song of Fire and Ice series has a huge cast, many members of which get killed off.I second the recommendation for Mr Martin's epic, if that is what you are looking for in a fantasy novel.

It is one of those books with, oh a good dozen pages of dramatis personae at the end instead of a glossary or appendices, with the people organized by which noble house they belong to.

Quite lengthy, with a sprawling architectonic plot. Very well written, with a convincing emulation of late renaissance dynastic politics. The only downside (for me at least) is Martin's characteristic bleak cynicism, where the good people inevitably get steamrollered by the rest of the world.

[astonwest]

The only downside (for me at least) is Martin's characteristic bleak cynicism, where the good people inevitably get steamrollered by the rest of the world.
Sounds like something I'd write...heh.

[E.G. Gammon]

It is one of those books with, oh a good dozen pages of dramatis personae at the end instead of a glossary or appendices, with the people organized by which noble house they belong to.

Now, if a publisher allowed something like that for my novel series, it would really help readers keep track of which character is which. I wonder how I would propose something like that... Would I just send it along if an agent requests the full manuscript, like it's part of the book?

[E.G. Gammon]

the good people inevitably get steamrollered by the rest of the world.

Over the course of my novel series, many main characters that people love ("the good people") die for a few reasons:

a) If I created a world where only the bad guys die, then readers would never fear for the good guys. The good guys have to die, too.

b) My novel series is a soap opera, yes, but it's also a UNIQUE one, in that the characters' soap opera-ish lives are wrapped around a supernatural fantasy (a genre where readers can expect a lot of death) and a serial killer mystery (an obvious genre where people have to die).

I don't kill off characters for no reason. Their deaths are just an engine starting of a car that hasn't even left the driveway yet for its long journey. The deaths (of good people or bad people) affect the characters that are left. I show the after effects and consequences for their deaths and/or murders.

[Lenora Rose]

EGGammon, I think the best advice you've been given so far is to just go and write the rest of the current book. NOW.

The Second Best advice was to read War and Peace, or any other Long and multi-character acknowledged classic. The thing with classics is, they've sruvived the test of real popularity, and they're still around when other books of their era that were as-or-more popular have gone into the great out-of-print stack in the sky. I'd be tempted to go as far as suggesting the Iliad, (because it has the greater sprawl of characters sitting in one place than the Odyssey, which gets to wander around).

The third best advice you've been given is to read George R.R. Martin to see how it can be done. My addendum to the third best advice is: Also read Guy Gavriel Kay. All his books are either thick, trilogies/duologies, or both. All feature many many characters. (With one or two the real focus.) I've never had trouble keeping track of them.

I note that *all* these books also handle something of the question of how many major good guys need to die, or should die, for the threat to be real. And how to make the death a minor thing, and how to make it a key turning point in the story.


You've been asking a lot of intelligent questions, and prep-work is good, but... when is it prep work and when is it shying away from the huge task you've set yourself.

Ah, who am I to talk? I'm *one scene* past where I was last week. And only a tiny portion of thgat is because the first scene ended up longer than I anticipated. Bad Lenora. Somebody order me to BIC again.

[James D. Macdonald]

Lenora, go BIC.

[Christine N.]

Now, if a publisher allowed something like that for my novel series, it would really help readers keep track of which character is which. I wonder how I would propose something like that... Would I just send it along if an agent requests the full manuscript, like it's part of the book?

It's not that uncommon, I don't think. I just finished Tamora Pierce's Tricksters Queen. Both books in the duo have a cast of characters section in the back. That's because there lots of characters, most of them minor, but also creatures, gods and other whatnot that a reader might like to remind themselves of. Especially with the names she uses.

Fabulous book, by the way. It's for teenagers, but a really good read.

PS. Lenora, go BIC. (I need to take my own advice!)

[Sharon Mock]

Okay, folks. I've gotten an hour of work in today. I took a break for lunch and in about three minutes I'm going back downstairs to work some more.

I'm BICing. How 'bout you?

(Deep dark confession: I count editing time as BIC time. I don't multi-task well, especially when editing requires holding large quantities of book in my head. Do as Uncle Jim says, not as I do.)

[bkrrh85]

Okay, I'll bite. As a newbie, I tried examining a few prior posts, but I darned sure can't figure out what the BIC thing is all about.

I'm sure it will be obvious once someone directs me to the right interpretation! Anyone want the job?!

Thanks,

[James D. Macdonald]

BIC = Butt In Chair.

You don't become a writer by thinking about writing. You don't become a writer by talking about writing. You become a writer by putting your butt in your chair and writing something.

[Liam Jackson]

BIC- Butt In Chair.

Sit down and write. Every day. Like clockwork. Don't wait for that friggin' muse to strike. Don't wait for inspiration to bite you in the butt. Eliminate excuses for not writing. BIC is such a simple concept, it's often taken for granted, but it seems to work when all else fails.

Establish a goal. For many people, 10 pages (roughly 2,000 words) per day is the magic number. As Jim says, your mileage may vary.

[Lisa Y]

Hey, everyone, BIC really works!! I wrote 4 new pages today! That's huge for me. I had to get up reeeealllllly to do it, but I did it!:banana:

[Sharon Mock]

I suppose I should point out that though I'm being virtuous today, it was a bit dodgy earlier in the week, when I was juggling obligations, trip preparations, and oncoming cold. (I ended up not going on the trip because of said cold.)

But that's the beauty of BIC. When you're in the habit of working every day, it doesn't matter that much when life gets in the way. Need to take a mental health day? I know I'll be back in the chair tomorrow. No time to work this weekend? Fine, I know I'll be back in the chair on Monday. (Or, more often, I'll squeeze in some work on the weekend and be back in chair on Monday.)

The last time I wrote a novel I didn't apply proper BIC hygiene. I wrote when I felt like it, which was usually 3-4 times a week. When I started grad school, I was about two chapters away from the end.

When I dropped out of grad school a year and a half later, I was still two chapters away from the end. And though I did eventually finish the rough draft, I no longer had enough faith in the project to make the revisions necessary to turn it into a publishable work.

If I'd had the discipline necessary to finish that novel in a timely manner and make the revisions while I still had faith? It wouldn't have been good, precisely -- there are problems in that manuscript that I don't think I had the skill to fix. But it might have had enough juvenile insanity -- I mean, youthful verve to get published as a first novel.

If only I'd been smart enough to follow BIC back then, instead of being seduced by the demon of Not In The Mood...

[bkrrh85]

Oh! You mean THAT BIC!!!

I don't wait for the muse, but sometimes it is so hard to put the BIC!

I'm working on a revision, major edit, of my second book. Does that count as BIC? I've certainly worked harder on it than I did the first draft--and I'm pulling my hair out a lot more, too!

I do spend around 3-4 hours, M-F BIC re: editing; I usually do a couple three hours a week working on a newspaper article for a column I write. I DO miss the "create from nothing" zing that writing a novel gives--articles just aren't the same.

But, I'm also working on research for my next novel, so does all this add up to BIC? I do know it adds up to a whole lot of computer time!!! I gotta admit, though, I LOVE the research aspect of writing ALMOST as much as the writing part--gives me a different zing!

And, I love organizing things, having lots of files, shuffling my papers around, buying office supplies, even doing taxes!!! Although I try to leave the organization for a couple hours a week, so I don't interfer with BIC!

Saturday mornings are usually devoted to catching up on reading: writing mags, articles I've saved from the Internet, books on craft, that sort of thing. I guess that is not really BIC, though, is it?

Anyhow, thanks for the info. BIC. Definitely like it. Now all I have to do is DO it!

[wurdwise]

Got a question. I have decided to take my WIP back in time, rewrite it in the year I was 13, 1968, to match my prose to my voice. How do I let the reader know this? Do I type above Chapter One, Summer, 1968, do I try to find a sublte way to add it into the beginning narrative? It's a middle reader, and not so much about that era as about the characters, so it's not like I have a reason to suddenly pop up and say "It's 1968."

[shmegegge]

Read the magazine you're submitting to. Get copies of their guidelines, and follow them.

Realism: Remember that dialog in literature doesn't sound like natural speech. Dialog is a literary convention.

Sorry for the late reply. Life, surprisingly enough, is full.

So, do you mean that dialog NEVER sounds like natural speech? I mean, doesn't that seem like kind of a severe declaration to make?

Although, it occurs to me that you may have been replying to my rant about non-realistic language. It occurs to me, reading the post back, that I came off accusatorily when I really meant to defend my own writing style. If that's the case, I apologize wholeheartedly. I certainly don't have a problem with how others use language in their writing, I just wanted to explain my own position.

Also, regarding burning the first book: James Joyce originally wrote Portrait Of The Artist As A Young Man as a much longer book called Stephen Hero. He failed to burn the manuscript, so you can actually buy the book, nowadays. But he never submitted it himself, feeling that it wasn't the work that he wanted to have represent him.

[shmegegge]

You may be confusing Dark Tower with The Green Mile (originally published in "volumes" each being released only a few months apart, instead of over a year apart like your average novel series). So a serial novel series would mean MORE, but SHORTER novels?

Hi there. 2 things:

1. The Gunslinger was serialized in a magazine whose name I forget before it was collected into a novel. The rest of the series was published in novel form from the get-go.

2. War and Peace, The Iliad, and Doctor Zhivago have all been suggested, and excellently so. I would add to that list Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. Caveat Lector, however: It's an incredibly difficult book. I heard once that the basic idea was to represent the loss of identity in a culture of information overload. I suppose it very well could be, because the book just flat out confuses you almost to the point of no return. I couldn't finish it. Yet. A teacher recommended keeping a notebook next to the book in which you list all the characters you encounter and make notes about their plot lines to go back to whenever you're confused.

[James D. Macdonald]

Do I type above Chapter One, Summer, 1968, do I try to find a sublte way to add it into the beginning narrative?

Why not put the date above Chapter One? You can delete it later.

Let's see -- 1968. Does your protagonist go to see Night of the Living Dead in the movie theatres? Or want to and be forbidden because of the article in Reader's Digest that her granny read? What's on TV? News about Vietnam? Is the TV black and white? How are people dressed? How do they talk?

If the exact date isn't important to the story, you can just not mention. But you, the author, should know exactly when it is. Follow it out on the calendar. Note what was happening. Be consistent. Your sureness will make the reader trust you.

Now on to realism in dialog. Really -- take a tape recorder and record some natural dialog. Transcribe it.

Then compare your transcription to literary dialog. You see?

Specifically -- you don't need to have your villains say "Gosh wow!" to avoid having them use really foul language. You can leave out the really foul language, and no one will notice.

[shmegegge]

Ooh! And I just thought of a great one!

Bradbury's Martian Chronicles! Not too long, but a ton of different characters, all given their time in the sun, and it brings up a concept that I hope you've considered:

Even though their stories are all intertwined in your serial killer and afterlife plot, a story with that many characters is often best served as if it were a long series of shorter stories. It keeps the focus on the human elements, rather than the supernatural ones.

Good luck.

[shmegegge]

Now on to realism in dialog. Really -- take a tape recorder and record some natural dialog. Transcribe it.

Then compare your transcription ot literary dialog. You see?

Specifically -- you don't need to have your villains say "Gosh wow!" to avoid having them use really foul language. You can leave yout the really foul language, and no one will notice.

Word. Point taken.

[wurdwise]

[QUOTE=James D. Macdonald]Why not put the date above Chapter One? You can delete it later.

Let's see -- 1968. Does your protagonist go to see Night of the Living Dead in the movie theatres? Or want to and be forbidden because of the article in Reader's Digest that her granny read? What's on TV? News about Vietnam? Is the TV black and white? How are people dressed? How do they talk?

If the exact date isn't important to the story, you can just not mention. But you, the author, should know exactly when it is. Follow it out on the calendar. Note what was happening. Be consistent. Your sureness will make the reader trust you.


Thanks, James. I've got lots of research to do, and lots of the old gray matter to sift through so I can trust myself to get it right first. This is going to be a blast!

[astonwest]

Specifically -- you don't need to have your villains say "Gosh wow!" to avoid having them use really foul language. You can leave out the really foul language, and no one will notice.
Sometimes, I'll use something like "so-and-so cursed under his breath."

[maestrowork]

Let's see -- 1968. Does your protagonist go to see Night of the Living Dead in the movie theatres? Or want to and be forbidden because of the article in Reader's Digest that her granny read? What's on TV? News about Vietnam? Is the TV black and white? How are people dressed? How do they talk?

If the exact date isn't important to the story, you can just not mention. But you, the author, should know exactly when it is. Follow it out on the calendar. Note what was happening. Be consistent. Your sureness will make the reader trust you.


Yup, put a date on it if it helps you, but if the author (you) know what date it is, put in th details. I usually don't like to spell out the time/date for the readers -- it makes the book seem dated, unless there's a particular reason like I'm doing a back story or something or the story happens at a specific time (like WWII). Otherwise, I leave it vague but I would fill in some details so the readers would get a feeling of the time, and if they're astute enough, they'd guess the date. For example, in one scene I mentioned "The Last Temptation of the Christ" at a theater... I mean if you really want, you can do an imdb search and find out when exactly that movie came out...

They do that a lot in movies. No SUPER saying "1975 NEW YORK CITY." Just by looking at the scene most people would know it's the 70s in NYC if they get the details right!

[SeanDSchaffer]

Got a question. I have decided to take my WIP back in time, rewrite it in the year I was 13, 1968, to match my prose to my voice. How do I let the reader know this? Do I type above Chapter One, Summer, 1968, do I try to find a sublte way to add it into the beginning narrative? It's a middle reader, and not so much about that era as about the characters, so it's not like I have a reason to suddenly pop up and say "It's 1968."


Do you remember a TV show called 'The Wonder Years'? It took place in the '60's, but as I recall there was no specific year in the '60's in which the show took place. Maybe that's an idea you could use with your work; perhaps you could allude to the general time your story takes place in without actually mentioning specific dates and times.

The reason I say this is, a lot of readers may frown upon the exact date and/or year being used in a work... especially if all the details are not exactly perfect to that date. I have friends who are sticklers for that kind of stuff; avid readers who, when a specific date or year is given, expect the author to know everything there is to know about that particular date or year.

And if the author's details are not 100% perfect, many readers that I know will literally put the book down and not read any further, saying with a bit of a huff, "Oh, this author doesn't know what he's talking about because such-and-such thing didn't happen until the day after the date in which this took place."

So I personally think giving a specific date would be to the author's disadvantage.

Another example of something you might think about can be found in Robert Louis Stevenson's Treasure Island. Jim Hawkins, one of the main characters, states the date, but when he gives the year, it says '17--.' Maybe if you gave part of the year but not all of it...

However, I don't know how well this second suggestion would fly these days.

Just a couple of thoughts. I hope they help.

[bkrrh85]

I was wondering . . . aren't you supposed to AVOID anything that "dates" your aritcle/book, i.e. specific slang that will be out of vogue in a couple years, in order to keep your article/book in print longer?

Unless, of course, I guess, there's a special reason to have your work set in a special time frame. I think historical fiction does that a lot.

What do others think?

[maestrowork]

There's no "dating" in classics. Details add flavors to your story. How are you going to transport your characters to your world if you only go with generics?

[wurdwise]

You talkin to me? Nothing I do will be generic! Perish the thought. I got it, no dates. My reader will be immersed in the 60's and it won't take them long at all to figure out where they are. Thanks loads, all of you, these answers have been great, so much help.

[Dawno]

A page or two back Uncle Jim suggested that someone look up the Celtic Knot posts from way way upthread in either the Undiluted or the Index. I went to the index to find it for myself and discovered that I hadn't really done a good job of calling out the Celtic Knot post as such, much to my chagrin. Well I've edited that one *and* I put a number of other posts that one might want to quickly reference at the top of the first post of the index.

If anyone thinks of a topic that should be in the quick reference, please PM me and I'll add it.

[reph]

For example, in one scene I mentioned "The Last Temptation of the Christ" at a theater.
A detail. I think that title was "The Last Temptation of Christ," not to be confused with "The Passion of the Christ."

Even within the U.S., the flavor of 1968 depended on your location and subculture. That was the year of the Summer of Love, if I recall correctly, but sexist and racist assumptions remained standard in some places.

[wurdwise]

Even within the U.S., the flavor of 1968 depended on your location and subculture. That was the year of the Summer of Love, if I recall correctly, but sexist and racist assumptions remained standard in some places.

I thought about that yesterday, reph. And we are talking Texas, the south, so the racial thing was a big issue, and we were far behind the northern states in our attitudes. I was a feminist back then, so I've got that one covered! :whip:

And I already have a scene where Maddy and her grandma deliver fans to the "east side" and the "poor part of town" and her wondering if all small towns are like that, with sections named for your color our your financial status. Many scenes in my novel are already back there, I just didn't know it. However, I have consulted with a good advisor and I am going to have to start from scratch. There are too many changes and misstarts for it to be a rewrite any longer. That's ok, it's the only answer and it takes what it takes. I can use scenes, but they will have to be rewritten, the cutting and pasting is over.

I am also going to read two suggested books that were written in that time frame before I start. I think that will jog my memory and put me in the mind set I need. I will try to rely on memory for as much as I can, another piece of advice that was priceless, and do the research along the way as I come to something crucial that requires facts. If I try researching first, like I said to her, I could get lost in the 60's and never find my way back! :hat:

[reph]

I could get lost in the 60's and never find my way back!
You'd have plenty of company.

[bkrrh85]

There's no "dating" in classics. Details add flavors to your story. How are you going to transport your characters to your world if you only go with generics?

Who said anything about being "generic" or leaving out details? How boring. What I had heard was very simple type things, like uses of slang, like, ah, "groovy" or "cool" in contemporary fiction caused them to, for lack of a better word, go "out of style."

Doesn't mean they're not good fiction, aren't filled with plenty of juicy, lively details. Look at some fiction from even as early as ten years ago--filled with references to the "new" technology--lap top computers, cell phones even belonging to children, etc.

I'm just saying (with reference to kids books) that I've read (more than once from published authors and publishers--again, kid books) that one should avoid using phrases that date your writing, unless there's some reason - like exploring a particular period, like it sounds like wurdwise is doing - to do so.

[wurdwise]

I think I get what Ray meant, and it wasn't an insult or nor did it say anything about leaving out or putting in details, just that the details, such as cell phones, computers, slang, things that "date" are generic tools to show a time frame, a cheap trick, if you will, when what you really have to do is immerse your reader in the reality of said time frame and the details will follow. Am I right, Maestro?

[bkrrh85]

Okay, I gotcha. I wasn't insulted, just thought maybe I wasn't communicating clearly. I'd say "happy trails" but I really mean "happy writing"!!!

[James D. Macdonald]

To Kill a Mockingbird is definitely set in a certain time and place (though I don't recall that a year was ever given).

Peyton Place is again set in a definte time.

So is A Separate Peace.

All of these, and many more, were evocative of a time and place. Generic can be wishy-washy. Your readers are hoping that you will help them see the world more clearly.

(Many years ago I wrote a YA book set mostly in gangland Chicago. During the course of my research I found the day of the week* when Bugs Moran was released from Joilet before he joined Dion O'Bannion's bootleggers. That never appeared on the page, but I knew it. I like to think that having those little details in my head gave me a sureness that the readers appreciated.)

*Sunday. He was in on a breaking and entering beef. (I also know what brand of cigarettes** he smoked.)

** Clown brand.*** Why do you ask?

*** Which may well have contributed to his death from lung cancer in 1957.

[Mr Underhill]

Even within the U.S., the flavor of 1968 depended on your location and subculture. That was the year of the Summer of Love, if I recall correctly1967. 1968 saw the assassinations of Dr King and Robert Kennedy, and the demonstrations at the Democratic National Convention. 1969 was the year when riots and demonstrations got very heated, and the year of the first Apollo moon landing.

Here's a "Hippy Timeline" (http://www.hippy.com/php/article.php?sid=15) I have just found.

[wurdwise]

Oh, my Mr. Underhill! What a treasure trove for me to dig through. Thanks so much for posting that link. Like wow, man, that's far out! :LilLove:

[wurdwise]

I want to read "Moving Mama to Town" which was recently written but the story is set in the 60's and it's a middle reader by Ronder Thomas Young, a southern writer. It is on many recommended school reading list. Jalpha told me about it. Another one Granny told me about is called "Buttermilk Hill" by Ruth White. I think reading how other recent writers handled going back there will help more than reading someting actually written in the 60's. Between that and the site Mr. Underhill gave me, some tech research to make sure I'm realistic about TV's and telephones and such, words and styles that fit the language, along with my memory, I can do my book justice, for I can see myself totally getting into it, taking the reader back there with me, when I was trying to move my memories into the present with the novel I was writing. I am so happy about this decision, whew...I feel like I've been saved in the nick of time.

[Jason M. Dyess]

Not to change the subject, everytime I come here I learn something new, But I have a question.

I am 20K words into my WIP and it looks like it is ending fast. I have two main characters, one minor, and one in between the two (with a few walkons). Now, I know that every character believes that they are the main character in their own story. My question is, is it a reasonable proposition to tell the story three or four times, once from each characters POV, right up until the climax, then run through the climax from the final POV? (or something like that.)

Would that work? Does anyone know of any books that do this well, or at all?

[James D. Macdonald]

Can't tell without reading the story.

It might work. Why not try and see?

I'm sure it's been done, but darned if I can remember any examples right now. In film, there's always Rashomon.

[BlueTexas]

I think The Poisonwood Bible does that to some extent.

[MacAllister]

I liked The Poisonwood Bible very much--but know lots of other readers who either hated it, or couldn't get through it at all...

So how well did it work? *shrug*

I guess it depends.

[zizban]

I liked The Poisonwood Bible very much--but know lots of other readers who either hated it, or couldn't get through it at all...

So how well did it work? *shrug*

I guess it depends.

I didn't like the story per se but the way the story was written was pretty neat.

[wurdwise]

I need help! Ok, so they say it's a woman's perogative to change her mind, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

I said I wanted to take my novel back to the 60's, but I am finding myself resisting this, and I'll tell you why. First, the only reason this idea came to me was because people kept telling me that my 13 year old protagonist sounded too immature for 13. So, at first, I thought i needed to bone up on how kids talk now days, which led me into a passle of all kinds of things I thought I should take into consideration other than words, like current trends. But I bucked at that, instead thinking maybe it was my voice coming through, since what other yardstick did I have to go by but my own memories of how a 13 year old thought and felt? That's when I got the bright idea to go back to that time.

However.....my whole plot is based on her best friend Corey being a ultra geek and he finds her mother's death certificate on the computer, how Maddy learns her mother has been dead for years. By going back to the 60's, Corey would have to become a completely different character, for there were no computers for kids, and of course they'd have to find out she was dead another way, but that wouldn't be a big deal, it's just that I am balking at changing him and changing the whole novel just because someone said Maddy sounds immature. I could make her younger, maybe 11. I am stuck. You see, part of the thing with the innocent sound of the story is that it is based on the town I live in, which is actually noted for the fact that it is like going back into the past, famous for it in fact. People come from all over the country to tour the old Victorian houses and the quaint shops downtown. My town strives to keep it that way. So this innocence is still in place. Of course, I'm sure all the kids are by no means innocent and there's plenty going on that goes on everywhere else, but the thing that really got me to thinking about the wisdom of me making this major change, besides COrey the geek, was a girlfriend telling me on the phone last night that her 16 year old has no desire to get a driver's license.

So I guess, bottom line is that I can't decide if I should study up on words that kids use to make Maddy sound more modern, change her age to younger, or change the novel to the 60's. That option is sounding more and more unappealing. Maybe I just don't want to do the work it takes to make such drastic character and plot changes, I have been wanting to finish this novel for months and move on to freelancing, but I can't see me putting it aside to do that, I might not ever finish it. Or maybe I just think kids keep thinking the same way, no matter what era.

I know that no one else can tell me how to write this story, but I am torn and would like to hear your thoughts on this.

[Mr Underhill]

My question is, is it a reasonable proposition to tell the story three or four times, once from each characters POV, right up until the climax, then run through the climax from the final POV? (or something like that.)

Would that work? Does anyone know of any books that do this well, or at all?Doesn't that pretty much describe every book by William Faulkner? Each chapter by a different narrator?

Or, did you mean telling the exact same events from different POV's? This is quite common in movies. Rashomon that Uncle Jim noted is perhaps the first example of this, but more recently there are numerous examples. Hero is one. Pulp Fiction does this to some extent, plus another Tarantino-esque one not too long after it – Jackie Brown perhaps? Something like that. One main scene involved a confrontation in a shopping mall, IIRC, and is shot three times following different characters. Also the experimental film Timecode which has four continuous shoots running simultaneously for the duration.

[bkrrh85]

Wurdwise--

Sounds like a pickle, to be sure. When my kids were teens, even though they were "good kids" they certainly weren't innocent in the same way we were back in the 60s.

Maybe you could do some "kid" people watching, like baseball games (should be some coming up), or malls--lots of kids hang out there.

I guess it all depends on who you're wanting to read your story, and what the theme is. You said earlier it is character driven, so in that sense, whether it takes place in the 60s or 2005s, if your themes are things kids today can relate to, either way would be "safe."

Wish you the best of luck on revisions!

[wurdwise]

That's kinda where I'm leaning. The theme is universal and timeless. I think I'm just going to finish the damn thing and be done with it. I will use as little slang as possible, but if I do, hell, I had Corey call Maddy a mind muncher in one scene, which is a word i made up, so I may make up my own friggin slang! Thanks for the good luck wish, I'm going in and I ain't coming out till this puppy is finished!:Headbang:

[black winged fighter]

Good for you, wurdwise! Oh, and asuggestion; make sure that you get some kids to read through the final product, and ask them how they feel about the slang and dialogue.
Also, I would go hang out at the blogs, like livejournal and such. A lot of kids hang out there, and the way they communicate themselves is...educational.

[wurdwise]

Thanks. I've got a 12 year old bookworm waiting to read it, smart as a whip and not a family member, and she won't worry about hurting my feelings, she's too much like her mother, who's a friend of mine, she'll let me have it with both barrels if it ain't up to snuff.

[zornhau]

Thanks. I've got a 12 year old bookworm waiting to read it, smart as a whip and not a family member, and she won't worry about hurting my feelings, she's too much like her mother, who's a friend of mine, she'll let me have it with both barrels if it ain't up to snuff.

I'm not a biker, but there's a motorbike scene in my current novel. I knew what results I wanted and asked the barman at my local biker bar how to achieve them. How do you get a bike up a hill? What kind of thing would knock you off the bike? What sort of bike would I need for this range? And so on.

In your case, I suggest you do the same. Write the story - or sections of the story - using made up or half remembered slang from your own youth. If you get really stuck, just use square brackets e.g. Jenny said, "[something really very hurtful ]" Then print it out, mark up the bits which need to be in teenage slang, and hand it to your pet 12 year old to do the translations.

As for cussing... if this is a middle reader, you're probably not allowed to use it anyway. Check examples in the same genre.

[KyleDHebert]

This may have been answered here before--in fact I'm sure I've seen it--but a quick search of the thread and a perusal of the sticky didn't help. My question is when do you used an asterisk to divide sections of a chapter as opposed to spacing? Is there a uniform style for this, or is it the writer's choice?

[pianoman5]

It was dealt with surprisingly recently, Kyle. It's here:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11030

[James D. Macdonald]

For those who don't want to click away to a different thread, short answer: To show a linebreak you use a pound sign (#) centered. How this will show up in the printed book is up to the book's designer.

Meanwhile, for those who do want to click away to a different site: Dealing Poorly with Rejection (http://www.drinkatwork.com/2005/04/comic-strip-writing-101-coping-poorly.html).

[James D. Macdonald]

Watt-Evans' Law of Literary Creation: There is no idea so stupid or hackneyed that a sufficiently-talented writer can't get a good story out of it.
Feist's Corollary: There is no idea so brilliant or original that a sufficiently-untalented writer can't screw it up.


For more fun:

The Evil Overlord Plot Generator (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/2002_06.html#000290)

[zizban]

I like LWE's rules of fantasy. I hold him in high regard.

[Jason M. Dyess]

Thank you, Uncle Jim and everyone else, for the information. I'll check out both Rashoman and The Poisionwood Bible when I get a chance, but for now, I'll just get the first version (mostly chronological) out and see what I need to do with it later.

Mr. Underhill - I meant the same event (with slight variation, since the characters aren't always together) from different POVs. I will check out the films, but I would love some more examples of novels (or romances, as Uncle Jim woud have it) written this way.

[alaskamatt17]

I don't know if this is right, but I use a blank line when I want to indicate a shift in time for the POV character, and three asterisks when I want to show that I'm switching to a different character in a different place.

[SeanDSchaffer]

For those who don't want to click away to a different thread, short answer: To show a linebreak you use a pound sign (#) centered. How this will show up in the printed book is up to the book's designer.


Uncle Jim, may I ask you a few things real quick? I prepared my manuscript with linebreaks that used the pound sign (#) like you said, but I didn't center it. I kept it on the left side of the page.

I've already sent the manuscript out to a prospective Publisher. Would the placement of the pound sign as I have done it be undesirable in the average editor's eyes? Would it be considered by an editor to be a lack of professionalism on my part?

Or is it merely a matter of preference where the pound sign is placed?

Please forgive me if I sound worried by this, but honestly speaking, I am. I want to give the editors who look over my manuscript the best first impression I possibly can.

[alaskamatt17]

I don't think it really matters, but it would probably be best for Uncle Jim to answer the question. I sent a manuscript once to a publisher whose guidelines stated that it should be on the left side. That was just their preference.

[James D. Macdonald]

If you just use a blank line you may be in danger of a copyeditor closing it up. The pound sign is used to mean, "no kidding, really, I meant for this line to be blank."

No one is going to reject your manuscript just because you put your pound sign flush left rather than centered. (It'll get rejected for lots of reasons, but not that.) Nor will it be rejected only because you used three asterisks rather than a pound sign, or something silly like that. A compelling story overrides linebreak symbols.

If the publication has a specific format specified in their guidelines, of course, you follow their guidelines.

[katee]

One that's never been submitted.

Uncle Jim, if I may be so bold as to ask - and to back the discussion up a few pages while I'm at it - what made you not submit that first novel?

I'm now 15k words into my first novel. I'm concentrating on getting the words down onto the paper, er, screen, because I want to reach "THE END".

But I have started thinking about the eventual edit. When I re-read what I've written, typically as a warm up in to BICing, I find it hard to judge the quality of my work. Is this a knack you pick up? Or am I doomed? Any hints?

[maestrowork]

I don't think it really matters, but it would probably be best for Uncle Jim to answer the question. I sent a manuscript once to a publisher whose guidelines stated that it should be on the left side. That was just their preference.

When there's a guideline, read it and follow it. Some publishers/agents ask for Time Romans, 12pt, for example. Do follow the guidelines.

If there's no guideline, use the standards. You really can't go wrong with that. Everything else you run a higher risk of rejection.

Of course, like UJ said, a great story/writing overrides minor formatting issues. (obviously if you submit something in Brush Script, 8pt, single-space, it probably will go straight to the trash).

[stranger]

First I'd like to thank everyone who posts here in particular Uncle Jim, I've been reading and appreciating the excellent advice for a while now without posting.

I'd like to re-echo Katie's sentiments, how do you know it is good. I'm in a similar position and I know the best thing is to finish the novel first but....

There are many ways which the writing will improve in later drafts but I also feel that the fundamental story will not change. I'm writing the first few chapters and the characters and the world building is developing and there are various mini-conflicits but there is not a huge amount of action in the part I'm writing at the moment nor will there be for most of the first third of the novel.

So I'm worried that I'll finish the book and that it'll be fundamentally flawed through bad pacing no matter how much I re-write it.

On a more micro level, I'll introduce a character and a subplot and a corresponding bit of worldbuilding and I'll be wondering whether this is sufficently compelling to be included in the story (I guess I can remove these subplots in later drafts).

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, if I may be so bold as to ask - and to back the discussion up a few pages while I'm at it - what made you not submit that first novel?

It stank.

I find it hard to judge the quality of my work. Is this a knack you pick up? Or am I doomed? Any hints?

Let's assume that you don't look at it after it's spent a month in your desk drawer and say, "Man, this one just didn't come together." How do you know you're good? You don't. Other people tell you that.

Your beta readers start handing copies of your book to their friends. Their friends start bugging you for your next book. Things like that.

If you're a writer you're doomed anyway. Think nothing of it.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'd like to re-echo Katie's sentiments, how do you know it is good. I'm in a similar position and I know the best thing is to finish the novel first but....

Yes. Finish the novel.
So I'm worried that I'll finish the book and that it'll be fundamentally flawed through bad pacing no matter how much I re-write it.

That's a valid concern, and it's one of the ways a novel can be fundamentally flawed. So, what is going on in the first third? Is there psychological movement? Why is the reader following along?

It may come when you're at second draft stage that you'll be cutting that entire first third.

On a more micro level, I'll introduce a character and a subplot and a corresponding bit of worldbuilding and I'll be wondering whether this is sufficently compelling to be included in the story (I guess I can remove these subplots in later drafts).

Yep. That's second/third draft territory.

[Marcusthefish]

I will check out the films, but I would love some more examples of novels (or romances, as Uncle Jim woud have it) written this way.

You should check out Millennium, by John Varley. I read it a bunch of years ago, but remember it as a fast-paced, highly-entertaining time travel story that uses the multiple-views device to good effect. They made a movie of it as well (I never saw it).

MTF

[stranger]

It may come when you're at second draft stage that you'll be cutting that entire first third.


Remove the first third. Gulp. It's taken me so long to write this much and I'm only one sixth of the way through. Gulp.

No, I think I've enough happening, just not action as such. The protaganist finds out his sister is in danger in the first few pages, then discovers what kind of danger and figures out a way to save her. The second third begins with the sister being saved from that danger. I guess I could compress the first third in later revisions if necessary.

It's a fantasy book and some of the ones I've read lately have swordfights left, right and center which got me doubting my story.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's a fantasy book and some of the ones I've read lately have swordfights left, right and center which got me doubting my story.

Car chases and explosions aren't the only sorts of movement that're possible. Psychological movement is just as good (some say better).

Read widely. Read the top award winning and critically successful books. Read the top selling books. Read the classics.

Read. We can't write otherwise.

[maestrowork]

Remove the first third. Gulp. It's taken me so long to write this much and I'm only one sixth of the way through. Gulp.


It seems so "difficult" to do, but if you really objectively look at the work, you may find that it might just be necessary, and as a professional writer, you do what is necessary.

I cut out 15,000 in my subsequent drafts, out of a 90,000-word ms. And it was necessary; it made the book stronger. As much as I hated to lose some nice writing, good character development, etc. I was pleased to remove that fat. It was necessary for to write that fat (and almost a year of my life), so I could get into my main story and my characters. But it was not necessary for my story.

[jdparadise]

For fantasy/sci-fi world building, I find that minor characters offer excellent opportunities for injecting world structure. They have minor, everyday experiences and talk about them, a sidelines-commentary on the world. Also, pubs (or space bars, in SF) provide an easy fix to insert some explanation dialogue.

I'm currently mulling over Noah Lukeman's "The First Five Pages." Lukeman's a commercial/literary agent, and has what seems like a lot of good insight into writing.



On "informative" writing, the kind BWF seems to be talking about here, Lukeman has this to say (typos, if any, mine):There are many ways in which dialogue can be "fake." The most common example is informative dialogue, that is, dialogue used as a vehicle for conveying information"...

...This type of dialog may fill the reader in on some missing facts of the plot, may provide him with a piece of information that the writer could not get across otherwise, but the price paid is great: it is dialogue that characters would never use in real life, interchanges that are not artistically real, that don't spring from characters' needs, desires, and relationships. Instead, this is dialog imposed on them by the writer...

...By using dialog to convey information, you prevent yourself from getting to the core of who your characters are, prevent interesting character growth...

Now, I've also heard it said that carefully crafted dialog--dialog that reveals character, frex--is a better place to provide information to the reader. So maybe Lukeman's just mostly upset about "As you know, Bob" dialog. Which, okay, no problem.

But, on the other hand, when an agent says something like the above, it makes me at least think twice about using dialog the primary purpose of which is to convey information.*

FWIW...

*One thing I can see is the MC sitting in a bar and overhearing an argument, a b*tch session, or a problem-solving attempt that might reveal world.

[SeanDSchaffer]

If you just use a blank line you may be in danger of a copyeditor closing it up. The pound sign is used to mean, "no kidding, really, I meant for this line to be blank."

No one is going to reject your manuscript just because you put your pound sign flush left rather than centered. (It'll get rejected for lots of reasons, but not that.) Nor will it be rejected only because you used three asterisks rather than a pound sign, or something silly like that. A compelling story overrides linebreak symbols.

If the publication has a specific format specified in their guidelines, of course, you follow their guidelines.

I highly appreciate it.

[Andrew Jameson]

Now, I've also heard it said that carefully crafted dialog--dialog that reveals character, frex--is a better place to provide information to the reader. So maybe Lukeman's just mostly upset about "As you know, Bob" dialog. Which, okay, no problem.



But, on the other hand, when an agent says something like the above, it makes me at least think twice about using dialog the primary purpose of which is to convey information.Well, but I think the key to Lukeman's comments is where he says that he objects to "interchanges... that don't spring from characters' needs, desires, and relationships." So, like you say, two characters sitting around talking about the Eastasian's recent invasion of Plimptonland, something well-known to both, which they have no particular reason to talk about ("As you know, Bob...") is fundamentally unsatisfying.

BWF's suggestion, however, is to craft a minor character -- a spear-carrier -- as someone who *has* a need and desire to talk about it. Bring in the Frapple dealer, who's been cut off from Plimptonland, the world's only known supply of Pure Mountain Frapple, and he'll fill the reader's ear full of moans about the state of the world in general and Eastasia's invasion of Plimptonland in particular.

At least, that's how I read it.

[Mr Underhill]

Some publishers/agents ask for Time Romans, 12pt, for example.Yes! Time Romans! That's it!

A Roman Legion falls through a rift in spacetime on an ancient battlefield, only to find themselves in the year 3049 AD, where their battle expertise is drastically needed to repulse an invasion by the evil aliens of Xobu. Then they wander across the ages, trying to get home, meeting adventure. The novel focuses on the exploits of the 12th Cohort as they...

Oh, sorry, that's the other thread.
;)

[Christine N.]

That was why I ripped out the first few pages of the WIP. Even though UJ just said to keep going. I couldn't leave it like that. And I realized that what the character was doing had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STORY. It was just cheesy exposition. Same with forced dialog.

When I write dialog, I listen to what the characters are saying. I evesdrop. It's the best way to get the natural cadence of a conversation. Usually dialog just flies out of my fingers, b/c my characters just keep talking and I have to catch up.

Yes, I hear voices.

[maestrowork]

Yes! Time Romans! That's it!

A Roman Legion falls through a rift in spacetime on an ancient battlefield, only to find themselves in the year 3049 AD, where their battle expertise is drastically needed to repulse an invasion by the evil aliens of Xobu. Then they wander across the ages, trying to get home, meeting adventure. The novel focuses on the exploits of the 12th Cohort as they...

Oh, sorry, that's the other thread.
;)

Oh crap. It was 6:40 AM. without coffee.

On the other hand, it's not a bad idea...

[reph]

Time Romans. All across Oknapawtopitoff County, rival Christian middle schools vie for the chance to send their top students to the statewide Time Romans Classic, where these devout young scholars will compete to find out who can recite all sixteen chapters of Romans in the shortest time. After one practice session, when a school janitor is caught sabotaging the coach's stopwatch, all hell breaks loose.

Oops! Back to rewrite.

[black winged fighter]

I'm currently mulling over Noah Lukeman's "The First Five Pages." Lukeman's a commercial/literary agent, and has what seems like a lot of good insight into writing.

On "informative" writing, the kind BWF seems to be talking about here, Lukeman has this to say (typos, if any, mine):There are many ways in which dialogue can be "fake." The most common example is informative dialogue, that is, dialogue used as a vehicle for conveying information"...
*One thing I can see is the MC sitting in a bar and overhearing an argument, a b*tch session, or a problem-solving attempt that might reveal world.

What I definitely did *not* advocate was the use of "As you know, Bob..." dialogue. Instead, I use minor characters by letting their experiences, and their subsequent conversations add anturally to the MC's and reader's knowledge.
For a (simple) example, MC = Jackie. Her brother breaks his leg on a biking trip, and tells her in the hospital that he had to wait forever for help, because some crazy guy wouldn't stop to help him...Cue deductive reasoning on Jackie's part....
In fiction world building (and an even simpler example), a friend might complain to the MC about forgetting her sacrificial dues, and now the King wants to know why....Can the MC help her?
And thus the plot advances and the world expands a little through adding depth to other characters. It will never be: "Bob, as you know, sacrificial dues need to be in by tomorrow, and you know how the king gets when you miss a payment!"
To paraphrase Uncle Jim: it must advance character, plot, or theme...

[Mr Underhill]

Time Romans

Oh crap. It was 6:40 AM. without coffee.

On the other hand, it's not a bad idea...
No way, man! Time Romans is my idea! Keep your hands off it!

Oh. I guess it was your typo.

So, whaddaya say, 50/50? That's a cool half-mil each once we pitch it to the guys at Paramount! :banana:

[James D. Macdonald]

Time, Romans.

In a pub in Londinium at the end of the second century, a legionary squad consisting of Handsome Hans the Teutonic Terror, Gaius Gracchus the Grinning Gaul, Manual Magister the Enigmatic Iberian, and Severus Sixtus (seventh son of Senator Sapium) are having a few drinks when the publican announces last call. Wacky hijinks ensue.

[DreamWeaver]

Time. Romans?

Hickory dickory dock, the mouse ran up the clock.
The clock struck one...

No one realized it wasn't just an old nursery rhyme. It was a warning. The ancient clock, long rusting away in a fallen church tower in Ravena, creaked into motion. Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock. It was going to strike the hour one last time. And when it did, they would arrive. The bell would toll them across the line that divides the past from the present, the impossible from the possible. Demons? Monsters? Or...Romans?

[reph]

Time, romans. England takes its first step out of the Dark Ages toward a bright future as an efficiently administered world power when the royal scribes learn they can record census data twice as fast if they use arabic numerals where once they wrote "Husholde of Iohannes Smythe, xvij pigges, xxviii layinge hennes," leaving them more time to think up new taxes.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

No way, man! Time Romans is my idea! Keep your hands off it!

Oh. I guess it was your typo.*snrk*

I was on this local (Colorado) Pagan mailing list, someone was talking about divination methods, they wrote "scurrying mirror" when they meant "scrying," I was delighted by the resulting visual and said so. Was a ferret running off with the looking glass? Did the mirror sprout legs, Luggage-like, and flee? The person who made the typo got very huffy and told me I oughtn't to make fun of his dyslexia. I suppose I wasn't clear enough and my delight sounded like derision by the time the email got to him. :(

Not ten messages later, a friend of mine on that list said something about "putting people on a pedestool," which started me giggling again. I could just see Rich Hall coming up with a Sniglet definition for that one. "ped' uh stool: The bar stool upon which is sitting that man or woman to whom you have become attracted after viewing them through beer goggles." My friend was not huffy at all about such suppositions, but then she's also a writer and appreciates these things.

A short story I wrote in college came out of misreading something Neil Gaiman wrote in the forward to one of his miscellany collections. I think his phrase was actually "an angel waking up a man and telling him..." and I at first thought it said "an angel waking up as a man." The story I wrote concerned a guardian angel who got demoted to merely human and had to adjust to his new mortality.

Anyway, just tickled pink to see the typo-to-story-idea process continually at work.

[Christine N.]

You guys crack me up. The strangest things make for creativity, don't they? I had an idea last week for a story/book about the qualifications to become Pope. Watching all the news coverage and all.

To be a baptized Catholic male is the only one.

Story pops into my head about an auto mechanic named Joe from Cleveland who suddenly finds himself elected Pope. Hijinks ensue.

[James D. Macdonald]

To be a baptized Catholic male is the only one.

Yeah, I know -- and while I didn't get my hopes up too high....

[Shiny_Penguin]

*snrk*

I was on this local (Colorado) Pagan mailing list, someone was talking about divination methods, they wrote "scurrying mirror" when they meant "scrying," I was delighted by the resulting visual and said so. Was a ferret running off with the looking glass? Did the mirror sprout legs, Luggage-like, and flee?


:ROFL:That's great! Must be hard to look into though....

[James D. Macdonald]

Tie me, Romans!

A kinky young lady learns about life and love during an unforgetable vacation in the Eternal City.


==================

Your next challenge!

Take one of the ideas above and turn it into a story. You won't have completed the assignment until you've actually submitted it to a paying market.

[maestrowork]

Tie me, Romans!

A kinky young lady learns about life and love during an unforgetable vacation in the Eternal City.


==================

Your next challenge!

Take one of the ideas above and turn it into a story. You won't have completed the assignment until you've actually submitted it to a paying market.


Meanwhile, you should ALL credit me for these ideas. I am SO PROUD.

It's Time, Romans!

[bkrrh85]

I have a POV question.

In one of my C's, four children are in the hold of a ship. My POV character is with his friend, Darius, in the cockpit of a helicopter stored there.

One of the kids is wandering around looking at things.

The fourth kid is looking at some chickens in a large crate. Something happens that necessitates the fourth kid trying to retrieve something that dropped into the crate by accident.

From where he is sitting, my POV char. could see what the 4th kid is doing if he were looking, but he's not looking.

So the question is this: because what happens with the chicken crate is crucial to this scene, do I have to begin a new chapter to show two pages of action by the 4th kid as from the 4th kid's POV, or can I switch to the kid's actions WITHOUT changing POV because the POV char. could see him if he were looking?

Currently, I have a very short, two page chapter from the 4th kid's POV because I show the 4th kid's thoughts. BUT, I could write the same actions without showing the kid's thoughts.

What do you think? I hope I've been clear enough! I appreicate your help.

[Kate Nepveu]

From where he is sitting, my POV char. could see what the 4th kid is doing if he were looking, but he's not looking.Why can't he look?

Or, can the 4th kid tell him afterwards?

Just a few alternatives that might jog something loose.

[bkrrh85]

It is not that he "can't" look, it is just that he is occupied looking through the cockpit with his friend.

The 4th kid can't tell the POV char. "afterwards" because the 4th kid's actions cause the chickens to escape, and ALL the kids get involved chasing them down, etc.

[Kate Nepveu]

So something like kid 1 running after a big red hen, and kid 2 ducking when an irate rooster flies at him, and kid 3 yelling "did _you_ let them out? what the heck did you do *that* for" to kid 4 wouldn't work? Or after the chickens are back in the coop?

And my first question was more "why _doesn't_ he look", I suppose.

[James D. Macdonald]

Do a linebreak and switch POV, or use a different POV character for the entire scene.

Your POV is the person who's best able to see the important actions. That's why you make 'em POV to start with.

[Mr Underhill]

What I definitely did *not* advocate was the use of "As you know, Bob..." dialogue. Instead, I use minor characters by letting their experiences, and their subsequent conversations add anturally to the MC's and reader's knowledge...

To paraphrase Uncle Jim: it must advance character, plot, or theme...I think the key to Lukeman's comments is where he says that he objects to "interchanges... that don't spring from characters' needs, desires, and relationships." So, like you say, two characters sitting around talking about the Eastasian's recent invasion of Plimptonland, something well-known to both, which they have no particular reason to talk about ("As you know, Bob...") is fundamentally unsatisfying.So here's what I did in a SS I recently dusted off and submitted. Originally I had the story open with the pilot, as first-person narrator, explaining about the dust cloud and comets his spacecraft is approaching. Wasn't too bad, since I jumped right into what was happening and what he was seeing, but it was still telling instead of showing.

So I revised it so that in addition to what he is seeing, he is having a conversation with the science officer about what is happening and what they are seeing. The scientific details become part of the science officer's patter – he tends to give too much information, so the pilot-narrator has to keep cutting him off to get the bottom-line information he needs.

I suppose that the science officer's TMI explanations could count as "As you know, Bob" dialogue, but I don't see it that way. Since he and the pilot have different agendas in the exchange, there is some tension. And the pilot's voice keeps things moving for those who aren't interested in wallowing in Oort-cloud astrodynamics.

Definitely added some pep to the opening of the story, IMO. Your thoughts?

#

My idea of "As you know, Bob" dialogue goes something like this:

"As you know Bob, this volcano, Mount Guba-Guba, has shown many signs of increasing activity over the past three weeks. Hydrogen sulfide emissions and seismic activity have been at the highest levels since our Geologic Survey Group began observations in 1956."

"Yes, Tom, that's sure worrisome. Can you give me a better breakdown of the gas outflow? Hmm. This looks like the lava dome is rising for sure. The only question now is whether we'll get a lava outflow like those Hawaiian volcanos, or an explosion like Mount Saint Helens."

"It could be worse than that Bob. There is a report of a heavy pyroclastic flow wiping out a village on the neighboring island of Sobarupa back in 1791."

"Pyroclastic flow?"

"Yes, that's the 'silent but deadly' type. Similar to what happened on Martinique. You recall that story from Napoleonic times where the ash cloud, filled with hot poisonous gases, swept down on the town, killing everyone except one lucky guy locked deep in a jail cell."

"Yes, Tom, that would be truly horrifying."

This is basically a volley, where both sides are trying to keep the ball in the air as long as possible. It is boring because there is no sense that either one is trying to score a point, let alone spike the ball. Also, there is no sense that the two speakers really have different areas of knowledge or objectives – the questions are haphazard.

[reph]

...can I switch to the kid's actions WITHOUT changing POV because the POV char. could see him if he were looking?
No, you can't do that. If you describe action that the character doesn't know about, you've left his POV. Similarly, if he closes his eyes for a minute, you need another POV for anything he would have seen during that time.

Chickens escaping from a crate would make noise. Maybe the POV character hears squawking and turns around...?

[black winged fighter]

Mr Underhill, as long as the dialogue reveals character, carries a theme, and/or furthers the plot, there should be no problem. In your "As you know, Bob" example, none of these are accomplished.

From the description that you have given, I deduce that the scientist is perhaps a bit full of himself and his knowledge, and that the pilot is a pragmatic, no-nonsense guy. This provides insight into their different characters, and quite probably furthers the plot some. Perhaps it even foreshadows a scene where time will be of the essence and conflict will arise.

Now, if you've managed to get your theme tucked into the opening scene, you've scored three direct hits.

(good luck with the submission!)

[Jason M. Dyess]

I'd like to ask a question on behalf of my wife. She has three novels in various stages of completion and is looking for markets for them (no, this is not a request for market ideas). She has found a few publishers who accept unsolicited submissions but request a marketing proposal. Her question is, "How do you write a marketing proposal for a novel?"

My addendum to her question is, "Should a writer submit to a publisher that wants an untrained person creating their marketing plan? Don't they have people who do that?"

Back to BIC.

[bkrrh85]

No, you can't do that. If you describe action that the character doesn't know about, you've left his POV. Similarly, if he closes his eyes for a minute, you need another POV for anything he would have seen during that time.

Chickens escaping from a crate would make noise. Maybe the POV character hears squawking and turns around...?

Thanks for the input.

The boys in the helicopter didn't hear the chickens because they accidentally turned on the engine. But, taking everyone's comments into consideration, I went ahead and changed the scene, so that my POV char. who is in the helicopter looks up and observes the chicken action, and then joins in the fray.

It worked fine, and having looked at both versions, don't feel the scene suffers any for the changes.

Thanks again, everyone. Your input is valued and appreciated.