18 Year Old novelist

[Lel513]

Found this article today and it made me mad. Apparently this 18 year old girl wrote a novel and managed to get it published by St. Martins press and has media coverage. How does this happen and there are so many people out there that can't even get an agent to look at their work. I think it proves that many people who get published have contacts in the business. I bet her father knew people in the publishing world, how else could a teenager get published.

story.news.yahoo.com/news...eenager_dc (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=765&ncid=762&e=11&u=/nm/20050203/people_nm/arts_teenager_dc)

[maestrowork]

Could it be that her book is really good? Why can't a 18yo get published? Is there an age thing in publishing that I'm not aware of?

It's like telling Mozart "you couldn't have written a symphony" because he was only 5.

Jealousy is an ugly thing.

[Meryena]

Sounds like her book has one of those gut-wrenching plot lines that pull a reader in and the agent devoured it. What the article didn't say was whether or not the young author had been rejected by others before being accepted. A story like that should be looked at as inspiration!

[Trapped in amber]

Even if there were helpful connections (the article mentions that the parents knew a literary agent), if the publisher didn't think the book would sell, they wouldn't have been interested. Good luck to her:)

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[macalicious731]

I'm 18. Hopefully by next month my novel will be complete. Hopefully within the next year I can have a contract. I don't see why I can't get published just like anyone else on this board.

And hey, her inspiration was Lolita. That's one of my favorite novels.

[three seven]

It strikes me that such a sales judgement may have been publicity-based; the article does imply that it's a good novel considering her age, but doesn't stand up on its own.
This particular story does have a whiff of nepotism about it, and in that respect I agree that it's wrong.
However, it's not as wrong as the suggestion that an eighteen-year-old can't write a great novel. That's just preposterous.

[XThe NavigatorX]

Good for her. Her parents may have gotten her read by the agent, but the book was good enough to get published. Publishers Weekly wasn't fully impressed, but they didn't pan it either. The book obviously has merit.

People always seem to think it's a competition. This person took my spot! It's not.

[Lel513]

I'm not saying the novel doesn't have any merit, maybe it is really good, but I'm objecting to the way she got published. I highly doubt she sent out a hundred query letters to agents before one took her on. I think she had an in somewhere and used the fact she was so young to get a publisher to take on the book. If she was 34, lived in a small town in the midwest, knew no one in the publishing business, yet had written the exact same book does anyone think she would have been published so easily? No, she most likely wouldn't have been published at all, or at the most a small publisher might have taken her on after years of sending out letters. I think I am mad at the way people who know people can have their work seen and many times published when people who know no one hardly ever have their work seen and must struggle for years to a get foot in the door. I know life isn't fair and publishing especially isn't fair, I just like to vent.

[DarkHaven80]

Hey, use what works, as long as its not immoral. If age is a helper in getting published, then I don't see anything wrong with using it. However, I would think that an editor would be abit more weary reading a manuscript from an 18 year than a 30, simply because in their head they may be thinking this person hasnt honed their craft enough. Then they were surprised. Just a thought.

[macalicious731]

The article doesn't say anything about how she got herself published, so I'm sure she did send out hundreds of query letters to publishers and agents. Even if she was someone who was accepted off the first two or three queries, so what? It happens, and good for her.

I severely doubt her age had anything to do with it. When I start my process, there is absolutely no way I'm going to let these people know that I'm 18. I don't want my age giving them any preconceived notions. They need to judge me on my writing, not my age.

[maestrowork]

So what if she didn't have to send out a hundred query letters? Hey, if I knew an agent or editor personally I would have gone that route, too. Unfortunately, I don't, so I'm sending out queries. That's fine by me. There are many routes to success. The book's still have to be good enough to get St. Martin to publish it. St. Martin is not a charity: they publish books to make money. They would care less if the author is 15 or 30 or 86. At the end of the day, a good book is a good book, no matter how you get the agent or editor read it.

Some people have to send out hundreds of queries and get hundreds of rejections (that's the story I heard about Clancy). Some people only have to try a few (Rowling reportedly only got 5 or 6 rejections before landing her agent and the Scholastic deal). Our own James Ritchie got his first novel published right off the bat.

The article didn't say she got special treatments. I think you're reading into things. You're judging the whole thing based on how young this woman is and that perhaps she has a link or two in the publishing business. Big deal. Focus more on your own work.

[katdad]

Many young writers are genuine prodigies. Some burn out, some continue.

Sometimes a new young writer has a unique voice and catches the attention of a publisher. It happens.

What also happens is that there are thousands of unpublished young writers, deservedly so.

Don't give it a second thought. Or, if you do, regard it as a sign that you can also succeed, if you've written a good book.

[Jamesaritchie]

She sold the novel because she wrote a novel the publisher wanted and thought the public would buy. This is the only reason any writer gets published. All the contacts in the world won't make a publisher buy and publish a novel.

She's hardly the youngest writer ever to sell a novel. Not by a long shot.

There is no rule, no law, that says you have to write ten novels and send out hundreds of queries, or that you have to be rejected a thousand times before selling a novel. I know quite a few writers who wrote a novel while young, and who sold it almost immediately. What you have to do is write a good novel, and not many are capable of this, no matter their age.

I wasn't as young as this girl, but I'd never even thought about being a writer, I was a high school dropout, I had no contacts in the business, but I wrote my first novel in three weeks, found an agent on my first try, who sold it within a couple of weeks. I went from being somene who had never even thought about being a writer to being someone with three major short story sales and a novel sale within a couple of months.

A good novel can be written by any writer of any age, and writign a good novel is what it's all about.

Knowing people has nothing at all to do with getting published. This is one of those things new writers often believe, but that simply has no basis in reality. Of all the writers I've known over the years, at least 95% knew no one in publishing and had no contacts at all. Several were within a couple of years of this girl, and still sold their novels quickly.

There have been quite a number of eighteen to twenty-two years old writers over the years who sold novels to major publishers, and all of them managed it for the same reason. . .they wrote novels the publisher thought the reading public would buy and enjoy. It just isn't all that unusual.

"I don't know anyone in publishing" is not an excuse for lack of selling, and "She was published because she did know someone" simply isn't based in reality.

This girl was published purely and simply because she wrote a novel the powers that be at St. Martin's thought was good and marketable.

[Medievalist]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Found this article today and it made me mad. Apparently this 18 year old girl wrote a novel and managed to get it published by St. Martins press and has media coverage. How does this happen and there are so many people out there that can't even get an agent to look at their work. I think it proves that many people who get published have contacts in the business. I bet her father knew people in the publishing world, how else could a teenager get published.<hr></blockquote>

Oh, get over yourself. Maybe it's really good--it's not the first time an eighteen year old wrote a good book. Yes, some people do have an easier time getting an agent because they know someone or know someone who knows someone . . . but they still have to have written a good book. It's always going to come down to write a good book.

Heck, just by posting on this board you're one degree away from agents, published writers, editors and readers. You've already got an unfair advantage over those who don't hang out here.

Write a good book. If it's good, someone will publish it. Don't waste time griping about someone else's good fortune. Write. Revise. Write some more.

[Writing Again]

child ballet star, accomplished on the piano and the electric guitar and she's just published her first novel,

Sounds like quite a young lady to me. Of course if she were normal she'd be smoking pot, pregnant and applying for welfare so everyone could live happily ever after and not have to compete with her.

Oh, well, I suppose someone had to show the adults up as worthless old duffers who can't cut the cheese fast enough.

I'll bet Danielle Steel is really worried right now.

[Lori Basiewicz]

...at the way people who know people can have their work seen and many times published when people who know no one hardly ever have their work seen and must struggle for years to a get foot in the door....

I'm trying to figure out how this is different than landing a job anywhere?

I just had lunch with a friend whose husband had been unemployed. He just got a job because a former employer of his told him to apply for a job at a place where the former employer just happened to be a VP and part owner. Now, my friend's husband was certainly qualified for the job, but I'm sure many other candidates were, too. But it was my friends' husband, who just happened to know someone, who was hired.

I could list several instances where knowing someone in the business, whatever the business happened to be, helped someone get their foot in the door. That's not publishing. It's life.

[CourtneyAllisonMoulton]

She does sound like she had it a heck of a lot easier than 99% of other writers out there that may have written a book just as good or better than hers. But, luck is luck and she definitely had the pot of gold.

The book sounds good, but I wouldn't read it. Not something I would ever read.

I agree that most agents and publishers would be much more cautious about a young writer than one who is 30. I am 18 myself, and I know this will be a long and stressful journey to get published. This girl's book obviously had an impact on St. Martins.

Lel, feel good about one thing at least: she is kinda creepy looking. :b

[Writing Again]

I'm trying to figure out how this is different than landing a job anywhere?

That really is what it comes down to, isn't it?

[Daughter of Faulkner]

I'm new to this board and found quite by accident last week. I hope it will be helpful to me because all I do is writewritewrite.
I know the Editor-in-Chief of St. Martin's Press and I can assure you that if the girl's or anyone book isn't up to speed it will not even get read let alone published. Age means nothing however talent, being original, and what will sell does. Looks doesn't hurt with the public but the publisher could care less about the face of an author only the mind and what he/she can create, if anything.
I say: Good news for St. Martin's Press, her and the world!

How wonderful it is get a novel published at age 18 or any age for that matter.

Champagne for everyone!

[maestrowork]

Lel, feel good about one thing at least: she is kinda creepy looking.

Unbelievable. Ought to be ashamed of yourself for saying something like that. What did the girl do to you? For being successful?

We should all be inspired, and not be drowned in our sour grape juice.

[RGame]

I can see both sides of this. Her family knew an agent, which probably saved her years of effort, but she also had to write a publishable book. And I think when the publisher saw that it was a publishable book, they played up the "young writer" angle, otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned on the book jacket that she was 18 and had written the book between the ages of 14 and 16. Mentioning how young she is was obviously part of the marketing. But still, the book had to be publishable.

[Gala]

Maestro--You've put this poster down quite a bit. Character bashing doesn't become you.

Lel: Goodie for you for expressing what many writers feel from time to time but don't have the nerve to say out loud.
:rolleyes

This girl's success may or may not be fair, and it's like I said in answer to your question re "other ways to get published." I suggested six degrees of separation, which had a bearing in this girl getting published. No harm in that, is there? People get jobs, boyfriends, houses, and opportunities all the time because they knew someone.

But the fine print is this: she had to have taken the hours to learn to write, had the discipline to complete and entire novel, had the will to listen to her elder teachers and relatives, "Oh isn't that cute, she's trying to be a novelist...and at her young age...". She did the work (unless one day we learn her mummy actually did it.)

So then this opportunity comes along, and she's ready! Success is where my talent intersects with a need in the community. One has to be ready or "luck" never happens.

There's enough success in book writing for everyone who wants to have it. If you are fully jealous, good for you--jealous is a powerful catalyst.

I got extremely jealous of an older woman friend of mine becasue I learned she gets two pensions from 2 ex-husbands, plus Social Security on their behalf, PLUS her own social security. That's five sources of income, and she lays about watching TV. NOT FAIR I say. The sting is that she's in department store debt to her ears and can't move sideways without pain.

Whereas I have am self-made all the way. Get my drift?

Write your books. Really lousy appalling books are published every day, by people who had no connections; they simply played the game until they won. That doesn't seem fair--but it's real. Also what's real is the wonderful ride we good (ahem) writers give to readers. I call that fair, and I have control over it too.

People with college degrees earn more money than those who do not; experience and talent may or may not be a factor. All that stuff.

Only you can write your books in your voice, with your unique way of putting word and story together. No one on earth competes with or compares to you.

[Kida Adelyn]

...

I'm 16 and I've written a complete novel. I hope to edit it so that I can get it up to publishable quality within a year or so.

Knowing an agent or having connections shouldn't get you one. Not if their a good one and want to keep food on the table. Agents don't make money by representing bad novels, this includes ones from people they know.

And getting media coverage- well her age probably helped. Not many young people write a novel (and complete it) It's News. *shrug*

[Jamesaritchie]

I'm trying to figure out how this is different than landing a job anywhere?


It's different because you aren't trying to get a job, you're trying to sell a product, one the publisher must then sell to the public. It simply isn't about the writer, and there's no similarity at all to getting a job. Getting a job is as far from selling a novel as you can get. Most people can do any job they've been trained for, or can be trained for pretty much any job the employer wants to train them for.

Darned few people can write a novel a publisher is willing to put many thousands of dollars behind.

I don't care how well you know an editor or publisher, or what kind of contacts you have, that publisher still has to put up a lot of money to pubish a book, and four out of five first novels lose money for the publisher.

A publisher can make a lot of money on the right novel, and lose a lot of money on the wrong novel. Editors lose their jobs by buying the wrong novel, and contacts or not, no editor is stupid enough to lose a good job by buying novels the publisher can't sell. Agents who take on writers because of contacts soon lose their good standing with publishers, and won't last long, either.

Those who think contacts make a difference have obviously never been inside publishing, and simply have no idea how it works. People seem to think an editor simply says, "I'm going to buy this" and it happens. It may work this way at a very tiny publishing house, but it does not work this way at large publishers. Nor does the publisher ever, for any reason, come in and say, "I know this person, so we're going to buy her book."

Contacts in publishing do not, will not, cannot get a novel published. It simply doesn't work this way. Not ever.

At the absolute most, the only thing the best contact in the world will get you is a faster read. That's it. Period. As one editor put it, "If God Himself recommended a writer to me, I'd still want to read the book before making a decision."

If your husband's friend had been trying to sell a product, rather than trying to get a job, and if that business thought they would lose many thousands of dollars by buying that product, do you think he would have been successful because he had a contact?

That's publishing. I've been in this business in one way or another for twenty-five years, and I've never yet seen a single person be published because they knew someone. I have seen a great many people rejected repeatedly, even when they had contacts better and higher up than this girl could have made if a hundred years. I've seen people who knew editors, agents, and publishers on a first name basis, and who still couldn't sell a novel. Shoot, I've knoown writers who were related to such people, and who still couldn;t sell a novel. I've even known a couple of writers who were married to great contacts, and who couldn't get a novel published.

The "You have to know someone" line almost always comes from those who have no clue how publishing works, and who are looking for excuses why they can't sell their own novel.

This is a real simple business. If you can write a good novel, one an agent thinks she can sell, she takes you on. And if an editor reads that novel, and believes it to be one that can turn a profit for the company, she recommends buying it. This almost always means the novel then has to pass muster at an acquisitions board, one usually made up largely of bean counters. The board is the one that actually buys the novel, and they have only one thing in mind. . .will this novel make money? If the answer is yes, they buy it, and if the answer is no, they reject it.

The simple truth of the matter is that only about one novel in a hundred is anywhere near good enough to interest a publisher. Anyone who has read thorugh a slush pile will tell you that finding a good novel is harder than finding gold in your bathtub.

And the truth is also that not all that many good writers do write for years and years, or goes through hundreds of queries before finding an agent and a publisher. When it takes this long, when it's this hard, it's a sure sign that the problem is with the writer.

It's sometimes a sign that the writer simply has no clue how to write a query letter, but far more often than not, it's a sure sign the writer doesn't know how to write a novel. Very few can write a good novel, and if what comes into slush piles is any indication, very few can write a novel good enough to be called bad.

There are some things seriously wrong with the publishing business, but needing contacts isn't one of them.

If you can write well, if you can tell a good story, and if you can fill that story with good characters, you will be published. If you can't do these things, and most can't, you won't be published.

Some just find it impossible to believe that an eighteen year old can write better than they do, but it happens all the time. Talent doesn't have an age range, and young writers have been selling novels and making news for two hundred years.

But thinking contacts makes a difference is one of the biggest jokes in the business.

[pencilone]

Jamesaritchie, you have a PM.

[pencilone]

From Pitch to Publication (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0333714350/qid=1107533849/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/202-1205982-1457440) by Carole Black is a good read about how the publishing system actually works.

Bestseller (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0006496733/qid=1107534123/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_10_4/202-1205982-1457440) by Olivia Goldsmith also gives some insights into the publishing world.


I like to believe that any book stands by itself and no marketing strategy can save it if it's not good.

I also like to believe that an author's age has nothing to do with the success of the book.

Pencilone

[CourtneyAllisonMoulton]

Jamesaritchie:
Some just find it impossible to believe that an eighteen year old can write better than they do, but it happens all the time. Talent doesn't have an age range, and young writers have been selling novels and making news for two hundred years.

Exactly. Thank you!

maestrowork:
Unbelievable. Ought to be ashamed of yourself for saying something like that. What did the girl do to you? For being successful?

Oh come one now, what does her being successful have anything to do with the way she looks? I am not that petty. Marilyn Manson is creepy looking and I don't say that because he is successful (he's brilliant, BTW), I say it because I think he is creepy looking. The girl needs to lay off the eyeliner and mascara. I actually read the entire article, which I'm sure 99% of the posters of this thread did not do, and I read the paragrah where they ask the girl about her resemblance to Courtney Love and I laughed. How could that be a good thing?

Either way, the line was made out of sarcasm toward the original poster of this thread who happened to actually be angered by her success.

[Tish Davidson]

So she's 18. Yesterday my daughter, who graduated from college last June, called to say that Creative Media Agency wanted to see partials of a novel she had written in college in her "spare time." She sent out 10 query letters less than 2 weeks ago and has gotten 3 rejections and yesterday this request this request for a partial.
No, she doesn't know anyone in publishing. Her boyfriend researched agents for her and she sent the query to the ones he thought were most appropriate.
Sure it is a long way from request for a partial to publication, but the basic rule holds true regardless of age, gender, race, sexual orientation, place of residence, past lives, future lives ... AGENTS AND PUBLISHERS MAKE MONEY BY SELLING BOOKS. It they think the book will sell, they don't care who you are. So stop being bitter that an 18 year old got published and put that energy into working on your craft.

[Lel513]

Thanks Jamesaritchi for the information, it makes me feel better that talent and quality are what counts in the publishing industry, rather than contacts. I was just letting out some steam over that article, not because of the girl but the publishing business as a whole. I think we all would agree there is a certain degree of unfairness in the business, yet I realize nothing in life is fair. I think now I'm going to use the story of the girl as motivation. If she can get published, I certainly can get published. I may have to work harder getting an agent to read my work but eventually it will happen.

[maestrowork]

I didn't hear the sarcasm when I read it (and I should know sarcasm :b ) So I apologize since you were just being sarcastic.

I guess I was caught up with the tone of this thread. First we chided her for being 18, then it was because she had an inside track, then she was "creepy looking." All that judgment without even reading her book, which could really be a good one. So I was somewhat miffed. I apologize for being irritated and harsh.

[emeraldcite]

let's play nice, folks. everybody needs a group hug ... or i'm sending this to the take it outside board.

have a nice day :)

[James D Macdonald]

The folks who write a novel and spend the next ten years trying to sell it, sending it to every address in Publisher's Market ...

Well, maybe everyone is overlooking a Work of Pure Genius, but that isn't the way the odds look.

Consider that that first book may have problems that you can't see, and write another, different, better book.

After ten years you should have at minimum ten books making the rounds ... and if one of them doesn't sell, well ... you got satisfation from writing it, yes?

(Please study writing. Learn what makes good writing good. Repeating the same mistakes over and over isn't the right path. Correcting mistakes, doing things different and better, that's what you should be doing.)

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

The age thing. Ah yes.

I sold my first short story at age 18. It was to a summer-only college lit mag called "Solstice" (discontinued now; there is another publication of the same name currently, I think, but it's unrelated). After the acceptance email came in and I did the happy dance up and down my college dorm room, I engaged in the usual pre-publication correspondence with the editor, and for some reason my age came up. I believe that it was hearing that I was such a young'un that led the editor to choose my story for that issue's "Featured Fiction" and pay me double the usual compensation ($50 instead of $25). But he didn't know I was only 18 when he accepted the story.

I miss the days when I got comments like "You write so well for your age!" Now I just have to write well, period. Hopefully I write better at 28 then I did at 18.

The story about the 18-year-old novelist is, for me, inspiring. It does make me a little angry, though--at myself, for wasting so much time. In the ten years since I was her age, my track record has been pitiful. It's a failing I'm trying now to correct through disclipline, willpower, and a husband whose full-time job pays the bills. ;)

Mort Castle is fond of telling his workshop students at World Horror that, what with improvements in medical technology, we're living longer all the time. There's no rush to be a best-seller by age 25. You've got plenty of years ahead of you.

Of course, I also think one should live each day to the fullest, as if it were the last. One could step out the door tomorrow and get hit by a bus (Gods forfend!). But Mort's "living longer" philosophy helps me keep from stressing out about it.

[James D Macdonald]

Readers are merciless. They won't cut you any slack for being young if you've wasted their time and their money.

There isn't a place in the standard cover letter for you to put your age. You don't need to tell anyone how young or old you are. The words stand on their own.

There's a story from the days of pulp of an editor who wrote a note to one of his authors, saying words to the effect of "Next time you're in New York stop by the office. We'll go out for drinks." The author allegedly wrote back, "Thanks, but I don't think my Mom would let me come to New York, and I'm not old enough to drink."

[maestrowork]

In RL though, there's this reversed ageism, I think. It might not matter when your work is accepted, but once they know you're a young'un, people would go gaga like you're the next Mozart. And it's not just in publishing.

I remember when I was a consultant I did a lot of my initial consultation and interviews on the phone. I sounded older than I was and I had many years of experience under my belt (I started young). Anyway, when I finally met my clients, they were mostly surprised by how young I was. They thought I was at least 40 years old from the way I talked and carried myself. Some even joked: "When did you start doing this? When you were in grade school?" I got a good chuckle out of it. But young age could be a burden, too -- at least in my business. People take one look at you and decide that you haven't got the stuff because you look so young; meanwhile, I probably had more experience than a lot of them.

Same could go in the book business. Maybe less so in fiction, and more so in non-fiction (after all, experience counts in writing non-fiction topics). If people know the author is only 18, they might disregard him or her by saying, "What the heck does she know about writing (or the topic)?"

[Gala]

Of course contacts make a difference in life. But only if the book is salable. (notice I didn't even say good.) In publishing an agent is a contact, and we meet agents through...CONTACT. I know people who have made excellent contacts at conferences, that led to submissions to St. Martin's press, mentioned in the issue we'ere debating. And I know a writer, whose book I critiqued, who yes indeedee earned a submission spot with St. Martin's through a relative.

Maybe it's St. Martin's thang?


As for the girl's looks. I found her face interesting and memorable. Mine they don't remember and never debate.

8o

[drgnlvrljh]

Seems to me the biggest gripe is that the girl didn't "pay her dues" like most writers do before they finally get published. I look at it like this, You're in a crowded grocery store, ready to check out, and all the registers are full. What do you normally do? Look for the shortest line, right? Except, sometimes, the short line ends up moving slower than the long line next to you. There could be a variety of reasons. Some might be because you didn't notice the lady in front of you had two full carts to check out, or it might be because the guy three spaces ahead of you wrote a check that the machine keeps trying to reject. Either way, you end up in the slow line, but eventually, if you're patient, you get through, and you can head home. But should you be annoyed or jealous of the people in the faster line? I don't think so.

So she had parents with connections. Good for her! All that did was get her a quicker and easier opportunity to be read. She still had to have something worth selling.

[triceretops]

Interesting discussion.

I think it was put out by SFWA or Locus, but there is a bar graph that shows at what age most writers hit print--an absolutely fascinating overview of when writers peak in a creative sense, and when they begin to fall off the charts with age. Can somebody else help me with this diagram/graph? I believe the peak output, inspiration, imagination, productivity was right around age 43 or something, or a range from 36--46. That's a guess.

Robert Bloch and Poul Anderson (gads, I loved em') said something to me in letters that was a total shocker. They said most writers don't see ink until about age 35 years-old.
That's because (supposedly) they haven't attained the wisdom, intelligence, and basic life experience to adequately convey it in the written word. They both admitted that this was unfair, but for some reason it bore out in the publishing industry. I was 35 at that time--I saw print one year later. But still did not believe them until I saw that survey graph that backed up their claim. Of course,you have your exceptions, the 18-year-old was at the low and beginning part of the curve, so they do exist. I guess they're the special one's, as is the writers in their 80's who still knock out printable books.:rolleyes

James, where in the heck is that graph, anyway?

Triceratops




Tri

[drgnlvrljh]

It's different because you aren't trying to get a job, you're trying to sell a product, one the publisher must then sell to the public.

But isn't that exactly what you're doing when you go to a job interview? You sell yourself, and try to convince the company that it would be worth their time, effort, and money to put you on the staff. You have to sell a product. It's just that product is you, and your skills.

[maestrowork]

I do see the difference between selling yourself to fill a job and selling your work as a product. Human resources are treated very differently than products, I think. One is an asset, something you procure (hire) to do tasks. An employee can be fired and replaced. Many people can fill the same job. You just have to convince the employer that you're the best man for the job -- but even you is dispensable.

A product is somewhat different. The publisher is buying something that they think would make them gobs of money. They're willing to invest a lot of money in it, market it, distribute it, sell it. It affects their bottom line (and perhaps prestige, if the book wins awards). A best-selling book is not easily replaceable, and is hard to find. That's why J K Rowling can command millions in advance and profit sharing, because Harry Potter is not dispensable for Scholastic.

There are still similarities of course. I'm just pointing out some of the differences I see.

[Jamesaritchie]

But isn't that exactly what you're doing when you go to a job interview? You sell yourself, and try to convince the company that it would be worth their time, effort, and money to put you on the staff. You have to sell a product. It's just that product is you, and your skills.

No, it isn't the same thing at all. Not in any way. Contacts will get you a job because the company doesn't then have to mass produce you, package you, hand you off to a distributor, and sell you to an uncaring public. Contacts do not, will not, cannot get you published.

There simply is no way of trying to sell yourself in publishing, and really no way of trying to sell your product. Contacts or not, a book must stand or fall on its own merit.

In writing, it's purely the worth of the product, which means selling yourself doesn't amount to anything, and contacts don't amount to anything. The only thing that matters to any agent and any publisher is whether or not the BOOK, not the writer, is good enough to sell to the public.

I know many new writers will never believe this, but it's still true. Contacts do not matter. Contacts do not sell books. Either the publisher thinks your book is good enough ito interest the buying public or it isn't. If they think it is, it gets bought. If they think it isn't, it gets rejected.

If this girl had any sort of contact at all, it was with an agent, and anyone who thinks an agent can sell a publisher a book because of contracts is really out of touch with reality.

[XThe NavigatorX]

18 years old? Bah. Try 13!

www.timesonline.co.uk/art...49,00.html (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1471249,00.html)

[sc211]

Edna Ferber said, "Writers should be heard and not seen. Rarely are they a winsome sight." But actually I think she looks cool - a direct cross between Courtney Love and Emily Dickinson.

Anyway, remember when Eragon came out? I was so jealous of this snot-nosed kid bumping his way into line. And then I read how he busted his ass off selling his book to every audience he could grab, schools and churches and everything, and only after he'd sold a few thousand copies to school kids, with one ending up in a publisher's hands by way of his kid, did he get a contract. That's balls, and that's awesome.

Envy's the worst when you won't admit it. I admit it, accept it with a shrug, and off it goes. It's human. (Yesterday I was envious of everyone who got to do a chapter in Atlanta Nights. :D )

Thanks, James Ritchie, as usual.

And finally, for more teenage writers, check out this list, with 14-year-old screenwriters and the like.

www.talentdevelop.com/writing-ya.html (http://www.talentdevelop.com/writing-ya.html)

[reph]

Yesterday I was envious of everyone who got to do a chapter in Atlanta Nights.

I still am.

[drgnlvrljh]

One is an asset, something you procure (hire) to do tasks. An employee can be fired and replaced. Many people can fill the same job. You just have to convince the employer that you're the best man for the job -- but even you is dispensable.

Alright. I can agree to that difference. :D

[maestrowork]

Me too. I'd like to have written a chapter of Altanta Nights.

[Gala]

Everyone agrees contacts in themselves don't sell a book. A salable book is required. Again I emphasize, not even a good or a great book; it has to be salable is all, and all of this is subjective.

Contacts do make a difference in the process. I have first-hand knowledge of this.

And the whole purpose of using agents is based on the contacts model. No one wants to hire an agent that doesn't have good contacts with the right people. And often people find agents through networking (contacts).

Why do agents, editors and publishing reps go go conferences? Because they are hoping to make contact with fresh new voices. I have heard and seen Shribner and other companies say this--I've seen it in action. I've watched Michael Connely say it. Jamesaritchie may appreciate that I met Ellery Queen people at Bouchercon one year. They were looking for damn good writers. (Not my genre, but it was interesting nonetheless.)

I heard James Lee Burke's daughter say she had contact with her agent through her (famous) father. This drew nervous applause from those of us watching.

And let's get into contests, because some on AW say they don't matter. I heard a Shribner author explain how she got her contact through winning a Poets and Writers contest. Her editor from Shribner verified, "we're always looking for fresh new voices, and I saw her writing and contacted her..."

Various writers whose work I've critiqued have won submission slots with publishers at conferences. I used to be skeptical of those "meet with an agent/editor/publisher" lures, and I've never taken one of the appointments. Nonetheless, several of my writing friends in different parts of the U.S. won submission slots with this contact.

God forbid an agent work with a publisher who doesn't have contacts with the right printers and distributors.

jamesaritchies is only one person of millions. Events have occurred he's not privy to.

Writers--focus on your writing. And when you're out and about, make those contacts. If nothing else, you'll have more people on your mailing list to notify to buy your book when it comes out and root for you at signing events.

[Greenwolf103]

summer-only college lit mag called "Solstice" (discontinued now

Nicole, did we go to the same college? :)

As for Eragon, his book was first published by his parent's company, a self-publishing outfit which, by the way, didn't publish those types of books. But, hey! They had the means and wherewithall. Then I read how hard he worked on the book and wasn't so skeptical of it.

I wonder: Has anybody even read this book? It's drawing so much debate over the author's young age, I'm curious if anyone thinks it's GOOD.

Interesting story on this whole age thing: At 16, I was refused admittance into a writer's workshop. I was told I was too young and to come back after I went out into the world to experience life. (I never went back.)

[Jamesaritchie]

Anyone who thinks eighteen i syoung should take a look at these writers.

www.timesonline.co.uk/art...49,00.html (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1471249,00.html)

[Jamesaritchie]

Why do agents, editors and publishing reps go go conferences?

Because they want to find good books, and even more important, because they don't want new writers to think they're being shut out of the publishing process.

Nothing you mention here has anything at all to do with contacts selling books.

Of course meeting an agent or editor helps becaus eit gets your book in the hands of someone important who can read it.

As for agents, having contacts inside publishing isn;t very important, except that an agent who has sold books to mainstream publishers has proven to those publishers that they know what a good book is or isn't. That's what's important.

There are a great many agents with contacts inside publishing who couldn't sell a novel is their life depended on it. It isn't the contacts an agent has that are important, but the ability of that agent to recognize a novel the reading public will want to read.

It simply isn't the contacts an agent has that are important, it's the fact that this agent has proven to editors that she knows a publishable book from an unpublishable book. To maintain this reputation with publishers, an agent has to reject books she doesn't think will sell, no matter who they come from.

People make much of those who have sold novels through conferences and the like, conveniently forgetting the thousands and thousands who attend such conferences across the country, go through all the same moves, make all the same contacts, but receive nothing but rejections. For every writer who sells a novel through a conference, there are thousands who fail.

If you sell a book from a contact at a conference, it will be for the same reason you would have sold the book without the contact. . .you've written a book the powers that be believe the reading public will buy in large numbers.

Yes, I'm just one person, and no, I don't know every deal that's been made. But I do know selling because of contacts is a joke in the business, and I do know quite a few agents and editors who would laugh in your face if you said contacts sells books.

Books sell because those with the power to buy believe the reading public will then buy that book in large numbers. Books fail to sell because the powers that be don't believe a book will sell in large numbers. Any agent or editor can be wrong about a book. They frequently are. Many books they think will sell fail to catch on, and some books they think won't sell become hits.

Contacts can get you a faster read by a higher placed editor. That's it.

Instead of worrying about contacts, writers need to worry about writing a good novel. Good novels sell, bad novels get rejected, contacts or no contacts, and very few can write a good novel.

[Gala]

Everyone agrees contacts in themselves don't sell a book.
I wrote that, and I've said it many times in various ways. Why you keep repeating something I didn't say is your business.

I say, Without human contact, no one would ever publish a book.

Crappy books get chosen and published by those "with the power" (ahem) all the time. Most of us will agree on what that all means.

Getting published doesn't require admission to a secret society, decrypting a code or learning a complex handshake. All the big mystery, russian roulette, impossible odds some would like us to believe it takes is myth. Doing the work leads to publication. Doing extra work leads to writing a book many people will buy and enjoy.

I'm not convinced that "very few can write a good novel." For me to say that I'd have to consider myself superiour to thousands of people through the ages.

No one can write my novels. And I gladly use contacts I am comfortable with to get my books in people's hands and hearts.

just occurred to my tired brain...perhaps there are writers actually in the publishing business itself who cannot get published, or at least not currently...perhaps that's why jamesaritchie is so vehement on the subject...in that case yeah...of course he would know authors of that situation.

Duh!

[bolshywoman]

Why are you personally attacking James A. Ritchie, Gala? I've learned a lot from reading his posts across three message boards (this one, the Writer and the now defunct Fiction Addiction).

I think he deserves a bit more respect than that. Your last paragraph was way OTT.

[Gala]

We all have a unique perspective, based on our particular experience. That's all I meant, nothing personal to anyone.

[maestrowork]

But you did put down James A. That's different than saying your perspective. You're putting down someone you didn't even know.

[triceretops]

I think what James Richie is trying to say is that if we let ourselves become consumed with the notion that the publishing industry is full of insiders, deal-makers, and back-slappers, we're apt to feel hoodwinked into believing the author selection process is rigged, somehow. Once we start believing that notion our attitude shifts toward resentment, since many of us certainly have had our share of industry rejection. No doubt some slick deals have been made in the book publishing industry, but I tend to think it happens much more in Hollywood.

My first reaction (sometimes) when I read a success story is one of resentment and jealously. But I use this as a catalyst to spur my own production on--competition can be a very good driving force to inspire and instigate self-proclaimed feelings of grandeur. It's a natural defense mechanism that you can use to shift one's attitude into higher performance levels.

In the case of the 18 year-old, I would hazard a guess to say that a favor was owed (possibly) judging from the connection between parents and agent, and coincidentally, the book just happened to be good enough for publication, you might even say marginally (judging from the review sources). This is kind of one of those "lone wolf" examples that happens none too often, a case of privilege owed to higher social status, but by no means represents the major cross-section of the entire book publishing industry.

Well, once again I've managed to use a lot of words to say basically nothing!

Triceratops

[Gala]

jamesaritchie all but called me a clown. In return, I kowtowed to his experience in publishing. It was a compliment.

If his feelings are hurt, which I doubt, he can tell me himself.

I never took his remarks personally, even the "joke" aspects. He was merely stating and opinion with passion.


maestro--you don't know who or what I know.

I gather there is something about james I don't know, that the rest of you do. Somehow I stepped on it.

Anyways, I always savor james posts, and he's one of few I never pass up. I like his directness, and on occasion he has swayed my pov on and issue.

ttfn.

Now to the topic: I've been thinking of the whole "contact" issue, in light of the emotional veracity that started this topic. Thanks.

[Gala]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My first reaction (sometimes) when I read a success story is one of resentment and jealously. But I use this as a catalyst to spur my own production on--competition can be a very good driving force to inspire and instigate self-proclaimed feelings of grandeur. It's a natural defense mechanism that you can use to shift one's attitude into higher performance levels.<hr></blockquote>
I am guilty of jealous, but yeah, it shifts me to higher performance levels. Often I assume they had better parents and education, a car by the time the finished high school, never had to bury relatives or have surgery. Their life has been a free ride.

I actually worked with someone like that at Microsoft. She told me her whole life had been a wonderful dream. She's the only person I've met like that. She wasn't complex; I wouldn't want to be her.

Most of my ideas on this topic haven't been for the well-experienced who already know the issue. I just think the publishing game ain't all a big mystery, it's like anything else and the more you know, and the more resources (or contacts or whatever) you have, the more power you have to win the game.

Good luck.

[bolshywoman]

For the record, I always like reading your posts too, Gala, and never skip them.

If I perceived that someone was directing an unfair comment at you, I'd speak up- not that you aren't perfectly capable of fighting your own corner!

On-topic, some of my favourite stories are those that Kipling wrote as a young reporter in India (in his late teens, early twenties), and Carson McCullers wrote "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter," a stunning book by any definition, at the tender age of 23! It's simply not true that merely because the writer is young, the writing is immature.

I also don't see any mention of contacts in the original article under discussion, and don't understand how that whole discussion arose.

[Writing Again]

Of course having contacts will not sell an unpublishable novel, or one that does not look as though it will make money -- And looking over Gala's posts I don't see where she came anywhere near saying they would.

But to say contacts do not help is to fly in the face of reality. Of course contacts help -- They always have and always will -- In any business.

Two novels equally good; two potential employees equally good: The one who has contacts is a step ahead.

When I started writing again the first thing I did was to look for editors whom I've had contact with in the past. Unfortunately the only one I could find was George Schithers -- And while I have several nice little notes on rejections slips from him he never bought a single piece of writing from me.

As far as being jealous is concerned, it shows another misconception: The idea that selling a first novel is somehow "making it." It is not. The sad truth is that many people have sold "first novels" some of which have been block busters -- Only to have their next novel -- Maybe even their next ten novels -- Flop: Or be rejected because they are not of publishable quality.

There are no "dues." You do what you can and what happens happens. Nor is any one writer ever in competition with another writer. There is always room for one more novel -- If it is good: There is always room for one more writer -- If they are good.

[sc211]

I actually signed on tonight to say that when I thanked "James - as usual," I didn't mean to leave out everyone else, including Gala.

I just meant that the view he gave - that you don't need to know insiders to sell - made me feel better since that's my situation.

As Gala has said, contacts are a great thing to have. I mean, anyone heard of a folksinger named Carolyn Hester? Probably not. But she was at a beach back in the early 60's, and told some friends she knew from the Village there that she was recording her first album the next day.

One of them, a young harmonica player, volunteered to play on her album. She said sure. Contact #1. When he got to the session, he handed her producer, John Hammond, a review that Robert Shelton, a NYT writer, had done of him at a local club. Contacts #2. Hammond said he'd heard of him from his son, John Hammond Jr. Contact #3. And before the kid had even left the room, without speaking more than ten words to Hammond, he was offered an album contract. The kid's name was Dylan.

The thing that gets me is while I know people I could approach as contacts, something in me just shies off from that - that way of using people. I once read an article in WD that said when you're at a party, "Give your card even to people who don't seem immediately useful - they could come in handy in the future." I just can't work that way.

[Crusader]

@sc211:
The thing that gets me is while I know people I could approach as contacts, something in me just shies off from that - that way of using people. I once read an article in WD that said when you're at a party, "Give your card even to people who don't seem immediately useful - they could come in handy in the future." I just can't work that way.

Thank you, very much, for saying the above.

[maestrowork]

I don't think anybody has said contacts are not useful. James A and Uncle Jim both have said contacts will get your ms a quicker read (instead of staying in the slushpile). But you have to write a darn good book. Otherwise, slush is slush and contacts only make your ms to be rejected quicker. Acquisition editors are not going to accept a ms based on who they know alone.

And to think, not everyone can finish a novel, and out of all the slush, less than 10% is ever close to publishable. Having contacts can only get you so far.

I think everyone is saying more or less the same thing, and we're just going in circles. Contacts get your ms read faster, and if it's publishable, you do get a better headstart than anyone else, and that's an advantage. But it won't get you published. You still have to work hard and polish the book and be a professional. The 18yo girl wouldn't have been published by St. Martin if her ms. hadn't impress the heck out of editors, and her book wouldn't see the light had she not been a professional.

It would be nice to spend a day at a publishing house and see how ms are selected and how deals are made and books are published. Then you'd know for sure.

[maestrowork]

The thing that gets me is while I know people I could approach as contacts, something in me just shies off from that - that way of using people. I once read an article in WD that said when you're at a party, "Give your card even to people who don't seem immediately useful - they could come in handy in the future." I just can't work that way.

That's how networking works. I don't see it as "using" people. These people are not forced to do anything they don't want and they have no obligation to call you. But giving out your business card to people, even someone you've just met and don't seem have any connection to your work, is a common practice. When I did consulting, I had people chat with me on planes and handed me their business cards. I did the same some times. I never saw those people again, but you never know. It's the "you never know" that is the key here. Business cards are cheap, but opportunities may be golden if you just happen to be at the right place at the right time.

I didn't like that in the beginning, being a naturally shy person. But after years in the practice, I finally see that it's nothing to be afraid of. Nobody gets hurt. Nobody is obligated to anything. It's all done in a friendly way -- "you don't have to keep my card if you don't want to, but here it is." There's nothing wrong with that. It's all about building your circle, be it social or professional. You may never see many of these people again, but it's nice to know you may.

As writers, we, too, need to build our circles. Who knows who's going to know us down the road, and it would only help with book sales, word of mouth, etc. etc. At the end of the day, publishing is a business, and business is about people, and people are about connections.

It's naive for us to say knowing the right people, being at the right place at the right time doesn't help. But it's equally naive to say that's all you need. I've worked in the publishing industry, and I've worked in the movie industry. If you think publishing is bad, wait until you get involved with movies or TV. It really is who you know. But again, that only gets you so far. It helps you get a toe in the door. The rest is still up to you. Nobody is going to make you a star because you're Mr. Tom Cruise's cousin. No one is going to read your book if it's bad, even if you're John Grisham's son. OK, so Anne Rice's son write books, too, and his mother probably helped him getting published, but he's a decent writer to begin with...

Jealousy is normal (I can't remember anyone I know who hasn't been jealous), but it can work for or against you. If that inspires you to write the best book you can and get it published, good for you. But if it makes you bitter and angry and depressed, then it's not so good.

[James D Macdonald]

I just can't work that way.

Then don't work that way.

I know some published writers who are incredibly shy -- right the way over to having clinical agoraphobia.

Your book stands on its own. Follow the publishers' or agents' guidelines, write more (and better) books, and don't worry about having to go out and gladhand like a traveling salesman. It's not required.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Nicole, did we go to the same college?Prolly not. The college I went to wasn't the college that put out "Solstice." I forget where that lit mag came out of - somewhere in California. It was 1994, and I'd seen the call for submissions on USEnet newsgroup misc.writing.

Why, did the lit mag sound familiar? ;)

[CourtneyAllisonMoulton]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Amelia Atwater-Rhodes. Even though her books aren't great, she was published when she was 14. The book was still a decent read.

[sc211]

Thanks, Crusader and Uncle Jim. And Maestro, well said. It's something I'm slowly coming around to.

I guess it all depends on your intention. Like I do some photography, and when I meet someone with a beautiful dog, I'll say, "Hey, I can get you some pictures of your dog if you'd like," and they'll say, "How much?", and so on. It's just enjoying their company, wishing them to have a quality portrait, and being reimbursed for my time. I like that way of connecting, where everyone benefits.

I just don't know how to approach someone when you have nothing to offer them but a request that they look at your work and give tips on where to submit it.

Still, if some kid came asking me to look at his photography, and was sincere in learning, then yeah, I'd be glad to help him out. Just as Uncle Jim and all here help out everyone else. And just as a poet I once knew told me in a letter to mention his name when I submitted to a particular magazine.

So if it's natural, then yeah, I like that. And I should just trust that my intentions are best and not let my own insecurities keep the work from being seen by those who can help it reach an audience.

Sounds like a good resolution, don't it?

[Writing Again]

A lot of times asking "What would I do were I in that situation?" produces a tremendous amount of good sense.

If I were a publisher, editor, etc would I read something a friend wanted me to read first? Yes. When it came to publishing would I publish it over someone else's work who was obviously more marketable? No.

If I were handed an ms by a kid whose work was head and shoulders above any other kid of her age, would I consider publishing it even though it might not be up to the standards I normally insisted on? Yes, because her age would be a marketing factor and because if she writes that well now she just may be a steady bestseller when she matures and I'd want her under my label.

These things are not rocket science, they are just human beings doing the job they set out to do. Most everyone of good sense would react the same in the same situation.

Personally I hope the kid has a great future.

[maestrowork]

At the end of the day, publishing is a business. If the publisher thinks there's a market for the book and they can sell a ton of it, they will publish it. So yeah, if they think people will be curious and buy a book written by a kid, they'll publish it. Granted, it should still meet certain standards. I doubt St. Martin is going to publish her book if it's written like Atlanta Nights.

And they should know what their target markets are. Obviously not everyone is going to like a book. Not everyone likes Nora Roberts or thinks she writes well. Not everyone likes Hemingway, either. So it's down to "where's the market, and can this book fulfill that market?" That's why they pay these editors to make these decisions.

As writers, we really should try our best to learn how the business works. The more we're equipped with the knowledge, the better we know how to navigate. It doesn't mean you have to stop what you're writing and try to imitate Grisham or Roberts, but it won't hurt if you know how publishers work.

[Greenwolf103]

Nicole:

The college I went to wasn't the college that put out "Solstice." I forget where that lit mag came out of - somewhere in California. It was 1994, and I'd seen the call for submissions on USEnet newsgroup misc.writing.

Why, did the lit mag sound familiar?

Yes it did!! Wow, now I'm curious. That definitely sounds like the college I went to in Southern California, and the same year, too! In fact, I was on the staff of that mag but we only put out one issue. C'est la vie.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Wow, now I'm curious. That definitely sounds like the college I went to in Southern California, and the same year, too! In fact, I was on the staff of that mag but we only put out one issue.Oooh, Greenwolf, this is getting downright spooky. The one issue thing sounds dreadfully familiar.

I'll up the ante: My story was called "Last Week's Rhododendron."

(batterbatterbatterbatterSWING!)

[Greenwolf103]

Nicole, I'm so sorry I've neglected this thread.

Unfortunately I don't have the magazine issue we brought out and I just learned they started it up again as of last year. They do not pay, though. I can't remember too much but if you think it might help, I'll PM you the college name.

--Dawn

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Hi Dawn! No worries about the thread. I noticed it float to the top today, though!

I pulled out my copy of the issue from my "happy shelf" and didn't see anyone named Dawn in the masthead, but that's not conclusive. The Publisher was Doug Kenyon.

I'm not in Southern California, so if they're still focusing only on that area, I'm not going to be in the running. Good to hear they've come back, though!

[Greenwolf103]

Hi, Nicole,

I'm glad they came back, too. :) Though they're only publishing student work...

I'm sorry, but that name is not familiar. Maybe we're talking about two different mags here. What an eerie coincidence THAT would be!

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Eerie indeed! Well, pleased to meet you, regardless!