How far is too far?

[three seven]

I was reading some true-crime stories last week, and was struck by how many of them would never be believed if you made them up. That inspired me to write just such a novel about a serial killer. Then a thread on this board sparked a discussion about making characters likeable despite their questionable actions, which inspired me further.

I've now started a side project (as in I'm winging it) in the form of a first-person account of the day-to-day life of a serial killer. Not just any old serial killer, but the absolute most twisted, sadistic badass sonofabitch I've got the mental capacity to create.

All of which leads me to two questions: Firstly, just how filthy and disgusting do you think a novel can get before it becomes unpublishable?
And second, do you think it's possible to make your readers root for pure evil? Not the scenery-chewing kind - I mean the kind that keeps you awake at night.

[Cardboard Tube Knight]

I think that people will root for just about anyone if the character is likeable enough. I would like to think that I've created some pretty evil characters that my readers actually enjoyed.

Sometimes that evil character can have every thing going for them, they can be good looking, well educated, or even generally normal, but they can also be a very bad person on the inside.

[maestrowork]

Sure, if you make the character interesting. E.g. Hannibal Lecter. But 1st person would be tricky, because the readers would naturally need to identify with 1st person closely. There's a very close relationship between readers and narrator in 1st person, so if your character is truly pure evil, the readers might not be able to handle it. However, if it's 3rd person (as with Hannibal), you might have a better time convincing the readers to go along.

[Nateskate]

How twisted can you make them, and still have people root for them. Ever heard of "Sympathy for the devil"?

Back to the point, Ted Bundy was an engaging person. He didn't go out abducting victims, he made them fall in love with them, at least some of them.

A sociopath is not a person without social graces. He is a person without a working conscience who develops a taste for pain and suffering and ultimate control.

How many people do you think a godfather murders indirectly? How many families does he destroy? Yet, his children love him, and there are people in the community that respect him.

In order to succeed, you need to understand what makes people like and admire another. And then you give them a secret life that nobody else knows, and they can be darker than people can possibly imagine, because our consciences won't allow us to ponder the things a sociopath feels comfortable pondering.

[EGGammon]

The novel series I'm working on involves a huge cast of characters, some that aren't so good. When a character does something horrible, I try and offset their mistake with either [ A ] a reason enough behind it so that they are semi-redeemed, or [ B ] create consequences so that the character understands their mistakes. And for the PURE EVIL characters, I just go all the way with it, have them not even care and be the embodiment of 'bad'. But, I am the type of person who loves to hate someone. If they are a great villain, sure, I think their actions are bad, but I can't wait to read what happens next.

[XThe NavigatorX]

There are plenty of small press gorror publishers who will put out just about anything that's in the extreme, if it's well written. There's a decent underground market for it.

[macalicious731]

There's a novel you should read if this is your question, but unfortunately I'm completely blanking on the title and author. It's been on a couple of banned book listings and it's written from the perspective of a very disturbed man. There's quite a bit of blood and gore, from everything to animal tortures to (I think) human murder. It's not a fun read.

Anyone know what I'm talking about?

[Cardboard Tube Knight]

That's just the thing, we don't always like someone because they are nice, good and pure. There are times out there when we find someone who is so devious and evil, yet you can't help but like them for whatever reason.

[three seven]

Exactly, and there's no way I could sit and write a novel in the voice of a character I didn't feel some kind of empathy with.

Personally, I think it comes down to the ease with which you separate fact from fiction. If someone crept into my neighbours' house and ate their baby, naturally I'd be horrified. If it happened in a novel, I'd squirm for a second, chuckle and move on.

Let's face it, you know that irritating spotty teenager who comes up to you in the street and starts asking you stupid questions about which shampoo you use or how happy you are with your mobile phone or whether you want to give £3 a month to build a home for abandoned guinea pigs? You smile and say 'Sorry, I would, but I've got to get back to work,' but every now and again you get the urge to just step up and snap his @#%$ neck. Don't you?

[katdad]

A novel I recommend you read is Cormac McCarthy's "Blood Meridian" which contains some of the most gruesome and nasty descriptions I've ever seen, plus some very despicable characters.

The book: During the 1830s, the Mexican government instituted a pogrom against the Apache, offering a $100 bounty for each scalp. This is an historic fact.

The story is about a band of irregular cavalry who embark upon a scap-hunting expedition, down through the Texian-Mexico border area.

I had literal nightmares after reading that book.

As for getting published with graphic & nasty 1st person descriptions, if the writing is of good quality, then the subject matter is not a problem.

For yourself, descending into the mind of a sadistic serial killer may not be the most pleasant things you experience. Read about that killer-cannibal Albert Fish, for example (early 20th century USA).

[dannyne330]

macalicious731-

Could you be thinking of American Psycho by Brett Easton Ellis?

If not, the book is still a decent example of what you're talking about, three seven.

Lots of disturbing and (very) gruesome scenes. The main character, Bateman, doesn't necessarily come off as evil, but it's pretty close.

Like others have said, you're not really rooting for Bateman, and you don't really like him, but you can't wait to see what he does next, so you keep reading.

The only caution i'd give is that one of the main reasons why it worked in American Psycho is because the book is a satire, not a standard suspense/horror/thriller type book.

Cheers

[macalicious731]

Dannyne, yes! American Psycho. Pick that one up, three seven. (By the way, your name makes up my two favorite numbers.)

[ChunkyC]

a first-person account of the day-to-day life of a serial killer
First, I'd just go with it in first draft, let it all hang out. You can edit later.

Second, I think you're on to something here. If you do this well, you are likely to freak people out and sell a sh*tload of books. Think of how much people enjoy yelling at the screen in a horror movie: "He's the killer, don't invite him in!" What you're envisioning would be an order of magnitude more frustrating and frightening for a reader. You're gonna lock them inside the mind of this psycho and make them watch helplessly as he/she does whatever you have in mind.

The concept alone is giving me goosebumps. :eek

[three seven]

Katdad: It was Albert Fish's testimony that put the idea into my head. I found it a couple of weeks ago in the course of researching a more traditional type of story, and it was possibly the single most disturbing thing I've ever read. The uninitiated would probably do best to stay that way. :o

Macalicious: I read American Psycho and yes, I see your point about not necessarily rooting for him but still being compelled to turn the page. A remarkable achievement for what it essentially a very boring novel. On a side note, don't be pulling any of that numerology s**t on me. ;)

Chunky: You're on my wavelength. When I first broached the subject I expected an indifferent reaction, but if the simple thought of it gives you goosebumps then that's enough to convince me that it's worth a shot.

Now all I've gotta do is pull it off. :eek

[preyer]

make 'im a kindergarten teacher, too. mess with soccer moms' heads. he pops up outside the mini-van wearing little suzie's skull as a beanie, going, 'ftfttftftft!' that would be hilarious because everyone hates kids. so, obviously, he's just a clown trying to entertain people. but as is the case with so many other misunderstood clowns such as krusty, bozo, hitler, and clarence, people just sometimes forget how to laugh.

does he have a goal, say a thousand people by christmas? and then try to break his record every year? is he in competition with another psycho for the most kills? sure he's a man? don't see many serial-killer chicks. or transexuals, for that matter. very few serial children, either. they always have to make the little bastard possessed by the devil or something.

how easy would it be to kill a ton of people, anyway? probably not very difficult. pick any sleep suburb and go door to door just killing everyone in the house. sneak into the coca cola bottling plant and taint a big batch of the stuff. blow something up with cow crap. first, ya gotta take out the rescue teams, cops, etc., to maximize the damage and minimize the help. i reckon there are bunches of ways to kill people if you're going to sheer numbers. if it's just a select few, i'd make 'em good ones to get. hey, you can start with my ignorant bitch of a boss. trust me, no one would do anything other than rejoice (funny how some people could completely care less that there's a bloc of folk out there that honestly *wants* you to die. what kind of mind is at work there, anyway? who's the real psycho, eh? lol).

[katdad]

novel about a serial killer
By the way, if you want me to send you a chapter from my mystery novel, I'll be glad to. It's too graphic to post here.

The chapter describes a murder scene of a serial killer plaguing Houston, "The Slicer". It might be illustrative of something you are considering.

Just email me and I'll send it back to you in plain text.

sam@waas.us (sam@waas.us)

[katdad]

It was Albert Fish's testimony that put the idea into my head.
Another thing you may wish to find is a textbook "Practical Homicide Investigation" by Geberth. It's the "bible" of US homicide classes. Geberth was the NYC chief of homicide for 20 years.

This book may be found in libraries and in some specialized used bookstores, and of course on Amazon.

In the book are the actual photos of the Jeffrey Dahmer murders, among others. It may make you queasy but it's the real deal.

Caution: This book is not for amateurs. It contains many very graphic crime scene photos and descriptions.

[SRHowen]

I was once "asked" to leave a crit group because of how graphic ( and no so graphic pyhc terror) one of my books is--guess that was too far. Members claimed they couldn't sleep--or keep their eyes open without thinking about it and I had a sick mind.

Sigh.

Katdad, I have that book and several others on crime scenes and how people have killed, tortured and maimed each other through the years.

Shawn

[maestrowork]

Nothing against anyone but I personally prefer to write something more cheerful, to celebrate goodness, love, kindness and fun. :b So I can sleep soundly at night.

:x

[SRHowen]

Ahh, but can you really appreciate all that good, kindness and love if there was no mirror of darkness to bounce it off of?

Shawn

[maestrowork]

I guess what I meant was I chose not to use graphic rape, murder, torture, etc. as the dark mirror. :-) There are plenty of darkness...

I don't want to get into philosophical discussion here. But in some way (spiritually) I do believe we create/manifest things, individually and collectively. The world is full of darkness already, and I personally don't want to help manifest more. There's why I choose mostly to write about love, etc. There are always darkness and conflicts and bad people in my stories, but the story itself would manifest goodness and happiness... if I make any sense to anyone of you.

That's why I don't usually read truly depressing stories or watch depressing movies. I think there's enough depression in this world already, and I don't need to escape my normal life to indulge in darkness...

[three seven]

Preyer: At least one of those ideas has crossed my mind. Hehe. I'm in the bizarre position right now where my inner demons are doing all the writing and they haven't told me exactly where it's going yet. :eek
he pops up outside the mini-van wearing little suzie's skull as a beanieGenius
I was once "asked" to leave a crit group because of how graphic ( and no so graphic pyhc terror) one of my books is--guess that was too far. Members claimed they couldn't sleep--or keep their eyes open without thinking about it and I had a sick mind.Excellent work my friend.
I think there's enough depression in this world alreadyI agree entirely; however there's plenty of room for more in fiction. Oh, and I sleep very soundly at night. ;)

[katdad]

3-7, I've just sent you my "Slicer" chapter from my 2nd novel. Hope this is an assist to your plans. Let us know your impressions.

I don't fixate on the nasty or negative in my writing, but I am writing modern crime novels and they will contain some nasty stuff.

But within this maelstrom are human beings trying to effect some sanity upon the world. That's also what I write about, people who rage against the dying of the light.

(a tip of the hat to Mr. Thomas).

[three seven]

Thanks, just finished reading it and it's left a lasting impression. Specifically, it's made me think about the coldness with which victims are portrayed in detective stories. They tend to be either dead by the time we meet them, as with Rhonda, or they get a couple of paragraphs max of back story, hear footsteps behind them, meet the stranger in the dark alley, extreme close-up, fade to black. Either way the victim's biggest part tends to be as a corpse being manhandled by the rest of the cast. The exceptions obviously being the ones who spend the whole story in a pit waiting to be rescued.

All of which makes me think: Is it possible to incite genuine horror for a victim viewed through the eyes of a monster, while simultaneously encouraging empathy with the monster?

[wurdwise]

I think so. The sociapath is so extremely delusional, he believes what he is doing is necessary, even that he is doing the victim a favor by removing him/her from this world, or called by God to take the victim's life, his true calling, different insane scenarios.

He can still have moments of sympathy, pity for the victim, no matter how insane he is, he may even relate to the victim on some level from past abuse of his own, or have sudden moments of doubt, be attracted to the victim as a human being, but convince himself these thoughts are the insane ones, rather than his thoughts of torture and murder.

I read a lot of psychological thrillers. Thought I better throw that in!:eek

[three seven]

these thoughts are the insane ones, rather than his thoughts of torture and murderNice, I like it. The story of an insane person gradually going sane...

[wurdwise]

Don't you imagine an insane person has moments of sanity?

[three seven]

Absolutely, I was agreeing with you. Don't you think all of those somebody-help-me-I'm-going-insane stories would look great flipped upside down?

[wurdwise]

Now there's a concept worth pondering. Help, I'm going sane!!

[three seven]

Insanity of unsound mind leads to redemption? Wait... I'm thinking omniscient first person, voice-in-head POV? Did somebody say high concept? :x

[Richard]

"Don't you imagine an insane person has moments of sanity?"

Wow, that'd really drive you nuts...

[ChunkyC]

Synchronicity alert:

I was listening to the radio on my drive home from work the other day, and they were playing an interview of a serial killer recorded about ten or twelve years ago. The salient point for this discussion is how utterly rational this monster sounded when talking about what he had done. He completely separated his consciousness, his sense of 'self', from the compulsions that drove him to commit his crimes. Thus, he had no remorse because he felt it wasn't 'him' who had killed, though he knew he was guilty, why he'd been sentenced to death, and even welcomed it because he knew if he ever got out he would not be able to stop his 'compulsion' from killing again.

As Star Trek's Mr. Spock would say: Fascinating.

[wurdwise]

I guess the devil made him do it. http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage05/5.gif

[ChunkyC]

In a sense, yeah. But it went deeper than that. It was a very intriguing conversation, because the guy kept trying to explain that the cliches like 'the devil made me do it' were drastically inadequate explanations. I'll dig around the net and see if there's a transcript somewhere, might prove helpful for you, 3-7.

[three seven]

Yeah, that'd be excellent - everything helps at this stage! Nice summary, by the way :hat

SO I had a thought today, brought about by the flippant omniscient-first-person remark I made yesterday.
Bearing in mind that this isn't intended to be a comfortable reading experience, do we think it would be too jarring to switch periodically between first, second and third person narrative? As a reader would that heighten your disorientation and further unsettle you, or would you correctly see it as a thinly-veiled device for giving me a break and hunt me down like a dog? :eek

[ChunkyC]

3-7:

I've found the interview itself in streaming audio on the CBC Radio site archive. The man's name is Michael Ross. The interview aired in two parts on consecutive nights as part of an hour and a half show called AS IT HAPPENS. You'll have to listen to some other stuff to get to the interview.

On the first day it should be the second story in the second of the three links. On day two, the remainder of the interview should be the second story in the second (last) link. Below I've put links to each day's page. On these pages are the links to the audio and the synopsis of the show for that night. Hope it works!

First day (http://www.cbc.ca/insite/AS_IT_HAPPENS_TORONTO/2005/2/1.html)

Second day (http://www.cbc.ca/insite/AS_IT_HAPPENS_TORONTO/2005/2/2.html)

As for your last post, that's another intriguing idea. Are you thinking of different facets of your character's personality being presented in different POV's? Say, the 'real' him/her in third person (like the reader, watching his bad self be bad), and the part that is sociopathic in first? Again, if it's well executed, brrrrrrrrrr!!!

[katdad]

as with Rhonda
Of course, she's just the first of several in the novel. The victims quickly change from strangers to someone well known. And that makes it more excruciating.

Most of my victims are "personalized" in my books -- people you know, or are at least acquainted with.

There's one character based on an ex-girlfriend and she's killed off in an particularly humiliating manner. Heh, heh.

[aes23]

I'd make sure you thoroughly acquainted yourself with the pyschological profile of serial killers.

Speaking as someone who has studied this some at university, along with abnormal psychology in general, I will say that you are approaching stereotypical camp in with some of the things said here.

Just remember that the common thread in the motivations of the vast majority (there can always be an exception, though very rare) of serial killers is sex. That includes the ones who are not known for sexual acts in their killing rituals. Almost without fail, sexual compulsion or gratification or masturbation comes into play.

[three seven]

I'd make sure you thoroughly acquainted yourself with the pyschological profile of serial killers. Speaking as someone who has studied this some at university, along with abnormal psychology in general, I will say that you are approaching stereotypical camp in with some of the things said here.Yes, laughing at that beanie comment has seriously devalued my twelve years of research. Shame on me.
The victims quickly change from strangers to someone well known. And that makes it more excruciating.That's another part of the reason I'm thinking about POVs.

Charlie: Thanks for those links. I haven't had a chance to check 'em out yet because we've been burying our dead today (yes, literally) but I'll give it a look tonight. :)

[ChunkyC]

we've been burying our dead today
You have all appropriate condolences from me, 3-7.

[three seven]

Thank you.

[three seven]

To all contributors!
I need someone to read over the first couple of pages and see whether there's a hook there, or else I need to rub it all out and start again. It's not immensely graphic but it's not suitable for posting here and I'm reluctant to put up a link, so if you're willing to give it a look please email me and I'll send it as a Word file in the morning (it's nearly 1am again.)
Many thanks ;)

ps email address is on my profile.