A wonderful "how to write" page!

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katdad

A wonderful "how to write" page!

I just found this terrific page by the writer Jennifer Weiner. It's all about how to write, how to get published, how to find an agent.

I highly recommend it:

For Writers
 

maestrowork

Re: A wonderful "how to write" page!

I fail the first three. Oh, and the "get a dog" one as well. But hey, I'm getting published. ;)
 

wurdwise

Re: A wonderful "how to write" page!

Call me a snob, but I refuse to read advice on writing by a new chick lit author.

The best advice on writing has been around for a while. "Dare to Be a Great Writer," by Leonard Bishop. A must read for new writers, IMO.;)
 

three seven

Re: A wonderful "how to write" page!

Comments removed upon reflection.
 

Zane Curtis

Re: A wonderful "how to write" page!

Call me a snob, but I refuse to read advice on writing by a new chick lit author.

Okay, I'll call you a snob. Literary snobbery is probably the worst habit you can pick up in this business (trust me -- I live in a country where it's the rule rather than the exception). I fail to see how looking down your nose at other writers will help you sell books.
 

wurdwise

Re: A wonderful "how to write" page!

I didn't pick it up in this business. I was a literary snob years before I started writing. And I don't call it looking down my nose at other writers. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I think a lot of commercial fiction blows. And the worst part is, many of those people are making a lot more money than I will probably ever see.
 

cwfgal

a bit harsh perhaps?

I did read it and found nothing there to be condescending or patronizing. And I guess I don't understand the logic behind refusing to read something I might learn from simply because it was written by someone who wrote in a genre I don't like/read/enjoy.

I have also read 2 of Weiner's books (Good In Bed was hilarious and a most enjoyable read -- you can read my review of it if you care to on the book's page at B&N.com) and currently have her 3rd in my to-be-read pile.

Beth Amos
 

wurdwise

Re: a bit harsh perhaps?

Each to their own. I can't see the logic in reading advice from anyone other than writers who's work I admire, or whom I respect.
 

triceretops

Re: a bit harsh perhaps?

Well, I read the whole dang thing and I'm inclined to take the middle of the road on this one.

On the one hand she has a remarkable insight on how the industry really works. Her "cut and dry" approach leaves no
options to consider, and she's remarkably dead on when it comes to analyzing the her own qualifications and expectations. Her liberal arts education no doubt helped her to accelerate her crafting abilities, and she did well by publishing in major slick magazines.

Contrarily, she comes off as a bit of a snob, leaving little room for other modes of contacting an agent or dealing with publishers. Her explanations seem too be "final, and that's the way it is" approach. Having written and published two books hardly makes her an authority, though she admits this up front. Instead of an endearing success (rags to riches) story, we have a formalized, "I did it this way, take it or leave it."
She seems too self--congratulatory in just about every aspect, and she manages to plug her book quite often. In this fashion she shows her age--having not really received her fair share of knocks in the biz. More of a lucky stroker who found print very early and now resides upon a little soap box.

I like success stories like Jean M. Auel and J. K Rowling. Much more heart in the matter.

Still, the article gets a 6 out of 10 doffs off the ole' fedora.

Triceratops
 

Betty W01

Re: a bit harsh perhaps?

Well, I see your point, wurd, but I think three's language is a bit harsh, at the very least.

(Of course, I didn't go to college, so that might explain it...)
 

maestrowork

Re: a bit harsh perhaps?

Wow, I hope people don't see my advice as bogus because I don't happen to write what they enjoy reading.

Sheesh...

p.s. Jen Weiner writes humorous chick lit (in the vein of Bridget Jones Diary). Her "advice for writers" is tongue-in-cheek.
 

wurdwise

Re: a bit harsh perhaps?

Have you written an article or book of advice to other writers?
 

maestrowork

Re: a bit harsh perhaps?

She didn't either. It's only her website.

You don't have to agree with what she said (again, I think her "advice" is all done tongue-in-cheek), but you shouldn't sneer at it and say somethning like "what does she know? She writes chick lit." Well, she has three books published with millions of sales. She was on Oprah. I think she's as qualified as anyone else to at least give her opinion about publishing.
 

wurdwise

Re: a bit harsh perhaps?

I didn't sneer, and just as you pointed out, Ray, people like her make much more money than I ever will. It just comes down to a matter of taste, of personal preference.
 

red423

I had an onion once......

or was it an opinion, but none the less I read it. I found merit in what she has to say. Unlike the gentle men last night who interuppted the local news.
Maybe we all could learn a lesson called "Let's try and understand". I will listen to or read almost anything, it promotes abstract thought in my runaway imagination, and while it may not register today, I am certain it will pop up again when it finally makes some sense to me.
Some of the better descriptive writers I have read fall inot her catagorization of people. And by the way, all trees do make a sound when being put into a supine position, very creative wording...........red
 

Jamesaritchie

Re: a bit harsh perhaps?

Each to their own. I can't see the logic in reading advice from anyone other than writers who's work I admire, or whom I respect.

Because whether you like or hate their work, they still found a path to being published that works. It's probably best to learn writing itself from writers with work you admire, but getting published is a totally different thing. How much you admire or hate a given writer's work has nothing at all to do with how much they know about publishing itself.


This site says nothing about how to write, but talks about how to get published, and does it all tongue in cheek. She's being funny with this advice.

It's funny advice from a funny writer. Like all good humor, there's more than a grain of truth in it, but she's being funny.
She's being funny. She's being funny. She's being funny.

But any published writer is one who should be listened to when it comes to getting published. There are many roads to Rome, but nearly all of them have certain commonalities.
 

wurdwise

Re: a bit harsh perhaps?

Point taken.

Maybe my whole thing is that there is so much advise written, about writing and getting published, so many books and articles, you could spend all your time reading advice. So, if I am going to research, I would select a writer I am comfortable with, who's opinion I trust. That's just me. There is only so much time, like the time I am wasting tonight, debating, goofing off, when I should be writing!:eek
 

Zane Curtis

Re: A wonderful "how to write" page!

And the worst part is, many of those people are making a lot more money than I will probably ever see.

Now, you see, that's a perfect example of why I think literary snobbery is a bad idea for a writer. You're tacitly relegating yourself to second best because you can't get along with a lot of commercial fiction. Well, I can't get along with a lot of commercial fiction either (see Sturgeon's law), but that won't stop me from studying it.

Writing "popular" fiction is a skill. You can analyze it and learn it, the same as you can learn grammar or any other element of writing. And that's what the likes of Stephen King and John Grisholm do while the academics waste their time with things like post-modern deconstructionism and lit-crit theory (not that I've got anything against those). Once you've studied what makes popular writers popular, you can come up with a few general rules of thumb for yourself.

At the risk of digressing from the topic, I give you a couple of examples, gleaned from the likes of Stephen King and J K Rowling.

(1) Popular fiction has a sense of movement, as opposed to literary fiction, which tends to be more static and reflective. That sense of movement comes, not so much from characters moving through their environment, but from the characters pursuing some specific goal. It's further accentuated by making this goal a moving target. For an example of this, think of a murder mystery where the investigator's chief suspect becomes the next victim. The investigator has to stop and rethink. In this way, the writer creates a sense of movement in the plot -- the sense that the story is changing and developing.

(2) On a similar note, popular fiction relies on good pacing. By "good" I don't necessarily mean "fast". Contrast is usually more important than speed. Stephen King, for example, generally starts slow and then picks up as the novel progresses: if Stairway to Heaven was a novel, it would be written by Stephen King. It's the contrast between slow and fast that draws people in. In a more general way, you can create contrast by juxtaposing long and short chapters, or slow and fast paced scenes.

(3) Popular fiction invokes a point of familiarity with its readers. J K Rowling is the best example of this. Her stories are set in a school. In that school we have the incompetent teacher (Trelawny), the unreasonable teacher (Snape), the disciplinarian (McGonnagle), the nerd (Neville Longbottom), the school bully (Malfoy), plus exams, detentions, school sports and all the other trappings. Rowling's target audience instantly recognizes all of this, and perhaps feels that here, at last, is someone who truly understands what it's like, and who's willing to tell the truth about it. The reference points don't stop there either. Anyone who's read any of those English children's adventure stories will recognize where Rowling is coming from. And anyone familiar with fantasy will recognize a lot of the fantastic elements. For a slightly different example of creating familiarity, you can look to the Sherlock Holmes stories. Doyle created this connection with his readers, not by throwing in familiar things, but by writing each of the stories to a specific structure. The repetition of the structure means that you can pick up a Sherlock Holmes story and know exactly what to expect, and all formula fiction since has relied on this idea.

(4) A lot of popular fiction has what, I guess, you would call a MacGuffin -- some device or idea that carries the story along, which is distinctive enough and interesting enough to appeal to readers. In The Firm by John Grisham, it's the idea of what happens if you get what you think is your dream job, only to discover you're working for the mafia. In The Scar by China Mieville it's a floating pirate city, built on the hulls of thousands of old ships lashed together. The best MacGuffins can become their own memes, that propagate themselves in the popular imagination ("Use the force, Luke!")

The point of all this is that you don't have to blindly copy King, Grisham, J K Rowling, or any other popular author. (And, in fact, copies are usually less successful than the originals.) What you can do is get a sense of what these authors do, and adapt their techniques to your own work. And you can do that without having to compromise your artistic integrity. There's no point being a snob about it. If a book is successful, then the author must have done something right (and I don't believe that luck plays anything more than a trivial role, given that books are mostly sold through word of mouth).

What are you going to do otherwise? Complain about how stupid the general reading public is, while you write books so rarefied you can't place them?
 

wurdwise

Re: A wonderful "how to write" page!

Actually, I am writing a middle reader, a coming of age story, and I think I can place it. I am more so referring here to my reading preferences, the people I choose to emulate. But I agree, popular fiction does teach formula.

My biggest mistake here was using the word snob. I am not really a literary snob. I do like many different types of books, just not chick lit. I made it sound like I was an academic, I guess, which is the farthest thing from the truth. But, I will say, I am very selective in what authors I choose to read. If I want a good psych thriller, for example, I yearn for a new book by Micheal Connelly, or Jeffrey Deaver.

But as you pointed out, the authors of popular fiction are doing something right. But what I think it is more than anything with chick lit is timing, taking advantage of a market. Good them, smart move, hot commodity. Just not my personal cup of tea, or who I would look to for answers in my research.
 

aka eraser

Re: A wonderful "how to write" page!

Fine, thought-provoking post Zane.
 

anatole ghio

Re: A wonderful "how to write" page!

You have pointed out some really apt distinctions on what makes commercial fiction different from literary fiction, esp. the observation that literature tends to be more concerned with moments and commercial fiction is more concerned with movement.

I want to point one thing out:

(4) A lot of popular fiction has what, I guess, you would call a MacGuffin -- some device or idea that carries the story along, which is distinctive enough and interesting enough to appeal to readers. In The Firm by John Grisham, it's the idea of what happens if you get what you think is your dream job, only to discover you're working for the mafia. In The Scar by China Mieville it's a floating pirate city, built on the hulls of thousands of old ships lashed together.

A MacGuffin, as first coined by Hitchcock, is simply the object that other character's have a vested interest in obtaining and because they have this interest in getting this object, their actions in getting it form the natural basis for a story arc.

Your example of The Firm is not precisely a MacGuffin: it is more the "High Concept" of the novel because it details the structure of the story without naming the concrete object being chased. I can't remember the plot of the Firm, but let's say he was looking for a legal brief and this legal brief had information that would reveal his firm to be in league with the mob. This brief would be the MacGuffin; the lawyer would try to get it and the mob would try to keep it away from him. Again, I have no idea what the MacGuffin was in the novel, I made this up to illustrate the point.

Good post.

- Anatole
 

maestrowork

Re: A wonderful "how to write" page!

Not to sidetrack the discussion, but I don't think that's what a maguffin is. I think a maguffin is an object/plot device that makes us think what the main plot/story is, but turns out to be an irrelevant distraction. One of the best maguffins is in Psycho. We were lead to believe that the plot about Janet Leigh steeling the money and running from the cops is important, that her character is the main character (since she's the "star"), but it turns out to be a plot device (and she a "minor" character) that leads to something else, something completely unexpected. The stolen money is the maguffin. By the end of the movie, we don't even care about what happens to the money.

That said, I do think it's fair to say that popular fiction does have a strong thread of plot device (the central deception in The Firm, for example) throughout the whole story. A main theme of "what if" if you will.
 

wurdwise

Re: A wonderful "how to write" page!

To bed! But I wanted to say, this has been a very interesting, and informative debate. I enjoyed it.:D
 
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