About irritating editors

Twizzle · Jun 1, 2007

I've been lurking for a while, trying to read as much as I can from all of you. And have learned a lot. Esp about submitting fiction pieces (not novels). But I have a question. Maybe someone can help.

There's a lot of advice here not to irritate or anger editors--an example-pulling a work after submitting or simul submitting when told not to. Writers being afraid if they anger one, they could hurt their industry reputation.

But then there's threads about how overwhelmed editors are with the sheer number of submissions they need to sift through. And I've read some magazine guidelines that have even said things like we get 10,000 submissions a year. And there's thousands of markets.

Don't editors change jobs frequently too?

So, yes, I suppose theorectically, you irritate or anger an editor he may remember you. He may warn off others. But really, the numbers would seem to say, noone will probably remember WHO you are? I mean it can't be both ways- they're overwhelmed but remember every writer?

I'm just confused.

(no, I'm not going to try it.

I know, I know. It only takes once. And I would never risk it. just curious and confused. )

The Lady · Jun 1, 2007

Well see, if you irritated them really badly, they might just remember you, people being what they are.

But if you just keep sending them rubbish stories which is a mild form of irritation (and something I'm sure you'd never do) well then I'm sure you just slip under the radar.

BTW, a forum member, by his selfish behaviour, on another forum, once irritated me so much I will forever remember the name.

But, he's going to get away with it, cos I'm going to be writing, not editing.

pconsidine · Jun 1, 2007

Speaking as a former editor, it's a total day by day thing. There were days when irritating stuff was just that - an irritation. But there were days when what would have been a minor nuisance the day before was such a monumental affront to my sensibilities that I would have gladly set fire to whomever was responsible for it. Sadly, editors are human beings with all that entails.

But even still, my files only ever consisted of notes like "good idea, but poor execution" or "maybe for department, never for feature." And I have never, ever dissuaded anyone from reading a particular author's work. It's not my job to save another editor from having to do his. That may be spiteful, but there you have it.

Will Lavender · Jun 1, 2007

Here's where you can get into trouble.

You send a story to, say, Prairie Schooner [are they still operating?]. They want it, and they inform you of that on a Monday morning.

You're elated. Ecstatic. Happyasalark. But!

You've sent that same story to ten other journals. On Tuesday afternoon, Zoetrope calls and wants it. The editor you speak to tells you that she fought for it; that none of the other editors were behind it but she plead, groveled, battled for your story. And aren't you so pleased that she won the battle?

"I'm sorry," you tell her, "but Prairie Schooner has already made me an offer."

"Didn't you read our submission guidelines?" the editor says, incredulity just dripping from her voice.

"But I--" you begin to explain.

Click.

Six months later you send Zoetrope another story. It makes it past an intern, a contributing editor, and then all the way to the editorial board for review. You're one step away. But the editor you spoke to on the phone gets a look at the submission, recognizes your name on the cover letter, and...

So this is one scenario that could, indeed, "irritate" an editor.

We were debating this very thing on the short fiction forum not long ago. I'm of the mind that, while the above scenario is definitely possible, how plausible is it? There are just too many writers, too many submissions, and too few legitimate publications. I think if you're writing good stories, it won't matter if that editor at Zoetrope remembers your or not. They'll want what you got.

talkwrite · Jun 1, 2007

Interesting thread here. authors can also behave badly during the editing process and make life difficult for editors. I edit a professional and scholarly series of books and my last author really angered me. It was what she did during the final edits of her book- not replying to calls or messages then attempting to contact the production editor so as to bypass some of the edits I requested of her. She won't write for us again (can't stop the book now in production, with my edits) Also it is a tight knit genre and other publishers will contact me for a reference when / if she queries them. I don't expect most people would be that much trouble and I have a great relationship with all my other authors. Oh, I've turned down submissions but always say- "please let me hear from you again"
Talkwrite

pconsidine · Jun 1, 2007

Talkwrite makes a most excellent point. Some markets are so insular that peeing in one editor's pool will contaminate the entire pond for you.

In my editorial experience (music journalism), there was little or no discussion between editors about writers. But that's because popular music is a vast market. Were I editing a publication exclusively about, say, Renaissance madrigals, things might have been a bit different.

Jamesaritchie · Jun 1, 2007

Twizzle said:
I've been lurking for a while, trying to read as much as I can from all of you. And have learned a lot. Esp about submitting fiction pieces (not novels). But I have a question. Maybe someone can help.

There's a lot of advice here not to irritate or anger editors--an example-pulling a work after submitting or simul submitting when told not to. Writers being afraid if they anger one, they could hurt their industry reputation.

But then there's threads about how overwhelmed editors are with the sheer number of submissions they need to sift through. And I've read some magazine guidelines that have even said things like we get 10,000 submissions a year. And there's thousands of markets.

Don't editors change jobs frequently too?

So, yes, I suppose theorectically, you irritate or anger an editor he may remember you. He may warn off others. But really, the numbers would seem to say, noone will probably remember WHO you are? I mean it can't be both ways- they're overwhelmed but remember every writer?

I'm just confused.

(no, I'm not going to try it. I know, I know. It only takes once. And I would never risk it. just curious and confused. )

The point is that an editor has a job to do, and the job benefits YOU. So you're being silly if you go against the rules.

And you don't have to remember every writer. Those who give you a pain in the rear are the only ones you need to remember, and trust me, as an editor, I do remember such writers. Yank a story out from under me and your name gets written down, and I tell every other editor I know about it during bitch sessions.

And despite the hoopla, sim-subbing is usually a dumb move, even when magazines allow it. It will let you build a much faster collection of rejections, but it is not a good way to get published.

But it's really not about making editors angry, it's about being professional enough to know your side of the desk isn't the only side, and that editors work just as hard as you do. If you want editors to respect you and your writing, then you need to respect the editor, his job, and his rules.

rugcat · Jun 1, 2007

talkwrite said:
It was what she did during the final edits of her book- not replying to calls or messages then attempting to contact the production editor so as to bypass some of the edits I requested of her.

You don't have to walk on eggshells and worry about offending editors. All you have to do is be professional--in other words, the opposite of talkwrite's example.

I have no experience with short fiction, but I've never had a problem with my editor, nor have I given her one. Apart from my belief that it's important to act professionally, when the editorial staff is trying to decide whether to buy another book, if the previous ones have only sold so-so, I want her in my corner.

Tish Davidson · Jun 1, 2007

talkwrite said:
Interesting thread here. authors can also behave badly during the editing process and make life difficult for editors. I edit a professional and scholarly series of books and my last author really angered me. It was what she did during the final edits of her book- not replying to calls or messages then attempting to contact the production editor so as to bypass some of the edits I requested of her. She won't write for us again (can't stop the book now in production, with my edits) Also it is a tight knit genre and other publishers will contact me for a reference when / if she queries them. I don't expect most people would be that much trouble and I have a great relationship with all my other authors. Oh, I've turned down submissions but always say- "please let me hear from you again"
Talkwrite

I've worked as an editor for scholarly material, too, and found that some scholars are extremely resistant (and I'm being polite here) to editing and will go to great lengths to ignore requested changes, make them, then try to change them back in the galleys, or simply refuse to respond until a deadline forces you as an editor to either go with the unedited original or insert you own edit, which is risky because you can inadvertently introduce errors into specialized information without realizing it. I've found these people much more unpleasant and irritating than people who submit in non-standard ways, mainly because there is no way to avoid contact with them until the project is over. After that, they are generally blacklisted.

Twizzle · Jun 2, 2007

pconsidine--well, okay--I'll admit, I don't follow the signs that tell you to shower off before you go in the pool. I feel bad about that whole tainting their pool with sunscreen thing, but not enough to overcome the creepy public showering thing. Even in a bathing suit.

ick.

I have not, however, ever peed in the pool.

and I promise I won't, ever.

thank you--I appreciate you all answering my questions. seems it depends on the market, editor, and how much of a jerk you are. I also promise to (try) to never irritate an editor.

pconsidine · Jun 2, 2007

I think the best you can do is the best you can do. Follow the guidelines to the best of your ability and try not to worry about anything else. After all, editors are people, too, and most will respect a good faith effort not to piss them off, whether it was successful in the end or not.

Plot Device · Jun 2, 2007

I never knew this stuff in fiction writing.

With Hollywod scripts it's a lot different.

In Hollywood, if you have a good agent, he'll get you set up with no less than ten pitch meetings. One writer told me he typically gets 40 such meetings via his agent. He'll pitch to a half dozen or more actors first to see if any of them want to make it their next vehicle. Then, after he has "attached talent" as they say (meaning Julia Roberts wants this script very badly, so if anyone buys the script, she comes along with the package deal, so she is automatically "attached" to the project) he'll next pitch to many studios/production companies at once. If two or more production companies want your script, you now have landed yourself smack in the middle of the scriptwriter's dream come true: a bidding war.

pconsidine · Jun 2, 2007

Yeah, that doesn't really happen in publishing. Unless it's an ex-President's memoir or something.

Jamesaritchie · Jun 2, 2007

Plot Device said:
I never knew this stuff in fiction writing.

With Hollywod scripts it's a lot different.

In Hollywood, if you have a good agent, he'll get you set up with no less than ten pitch meetings. One writer told me he typically gets 40 such meetings via his agent. He'll pitch to a half dozen or more actors first to see if any of them want to make it their next vehicle. Then, after he has "attached talent" as they say (meaning Julia Roberts wants this script very badly, so if anyone buys the script, she comes along with the package deal, so she is automatically "attached" to the project) he'll next pitch to many studios/production companies at once. If two or more production companies want your script, you now have landed yourself smack in the middle of the scriptwriter's dream come true: a bidding war.

This is sort of like what sometimes hapens with novel writing, only here it's called an "auction." But just as with screenwriting, the average Joe Blow doesn't get to go this route.

Namatu · Jun 3, 2007

Tish Davidson said:
I've worked as an editor for scholarly material, too, and found that some scholars are extremely resistant (and I'm being polite here) to editing

"Extremely" doesn't seem like it could be an understatement, but it works in this context. I know exactly what you mean!

cjmouser · Jun 3, 2007

I've worked with just about every kind. The kind that won't edit a word of my stuff leaving me terrified that I may have injected a blooper in there that won't get caught. I've had them change the endings of stories, change the dialect of a character to the point that I don't recognize them anymore. I've had them sit on material long past when it should have been published. I've had them delete minor cuss words and insert symbols or change "goddamn it" to "gosh darn it." I've had them completely butcher stories, moving paragraphs around until the piece makes no sense at all. I've run the gamut from horrible, abusive rejections to, "I'll print anything you send!"

I had one agent tell me that he would NEVER READ ANYTHING FROM ANYBODY that had a copyright on it. I'm still wondering about that one. I had one publisher swear that I'd never have a book published until after I had a book published. How does that work? Then I had a publisher that read ONE of my pieces and agreed to publish a book full of them and I am working on at least one, possibly two more ms for the same publisher. Editors/agents/publishers are people. There are good ones and bad ones.

PeeDee · Jun 3, 2007

I'm polite to editors for a lot of reasons, and very, very low on the list is "hurt my industry reputation."

I'm nice to editors because 1) They have a thankless job that, at a certain point, is done for the love 2) They are jes' folk, jes' like me 3) To be rude to them is.....rude.

I'm as nice to editors as I am to a friendly checkout cashier. And why not? It's all hard work. Why not be a decent human being about it? A lot of problems can be solved (and caused) painlessly by being a Decent Human Being all around.

talkwrite · Jun 3, 2007

I really do enjoy seeing a book I have worked on to edit come into existence- get published. I get a thrill out of the reviews and watching people buy it ( I attend signings and lectures too) . I feel protective of my authors and felt it was important to work for a publisher that was respectful and generous of authors. I will quit if that changes.
In light of the awareness of the important elements of a good relationship between editor and author shown on this thread- please indulge me in saying that I am looking for more authors for my series. I posted a Call for Manuscripts in Writers Wanted-Paying Markets. http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63088
Yes, it is a stretch of a genre but the market is begging and the royalties are...well, remember what you paid for text books in college????. The experience is very very good.
Enjoy,
Talkwrite

Jamesaritchie · Jun 3, 2007

cjmouser said:
I had one agent tell me that he would NEVER READ ANYTHING FROM ANYBODY that had a copyright on it. I'm still wondering about that one. I had one publisher swear that I'd never have a book published until after I had a book published. How does that work? Then I had a publisher that read ONE of my pieces and agreed to publish a book full of them and I am working on at least one, possibly two more ms for the same publisher. Editors/agents/publishers are people. There are good ones and bad ones.

I won't usually read anything with a copyright symbol on it, either. Experience has taught me that when I see such a symbol I'm dealing with a writer who's a pain in the ass to work with. There are always exceptions, or course, but they're rare enough that I don't take the chance.

It does get a bit irritating when writers start complaining about editors. I've been on both sides of the desk a fair number of times over the last thirty years, and for every bad, pain in the ass editor I've encountered, I've seen at least twenty bad, pain in the ass writers. some with talent, some without.

cjmouser · Jun 3, 2007

Well, the thing is, how do you know who you're sending your material to? If it's not someone that I have been referred to our has been referred to me, I get a little nervous. I guess it depends on the material you write, but good ideas are stolen everyday. If someone has a problem with a copyright, then I have a problem with them, and go to someone else.

Most people couldn't care less if you have copyrighted your material and why should they? If it seems pretentious, well so be it. Is it pretentious to lock up a bike in New York City even if it's older, with flaking paint, a tattered seat and maybe not really unique? If it has any value at all, and if it means anything to you at all, you protect it.

Tish Davidson · Jun 3, 2007

cjmouser said:
Well, the thing is, how do you know who you're sending your material to? If it's not someone that I have been referred to our has been referred to me, I get a little nervous. I guess it depends on the material you write, but good ideas are stolen everyday. If someone has a problem with a copyright, then I have a problem with them, and go to someone else.

Ideas can't be copyrighted whether you have a copyright symbol on your manuscript or not. Only your words are copyrighted, so basically you aren't protecting your idea and you may potentially be alienating editors. The worth of a piece of writing is in the execution, not the idea. How many of us have had people approach to us and say, "I have a great idea for a book (or script, or movie). How about I tell you and you write it and we split the profits." My response is always that ideas are easy, putting the idea into compelling prose is hard.

cjmouser · Jun 3, 2007

Then what is the point of copyrighting?

Will Lavender · Jun 3, 2007

cjmouser said:
Then what is the point of copyrighting?

Good question.

I'd never heard of such a thing until I came to AW, and still don't quite understand why anyone would do it.

Tish Davidson · Jun 3, 2007

cjmouser said:
Then what is the point of copyrighting?

Since you are a new AW member, I suggest that rather than having us post the same information on copyright for the zillionth time, read these threads, and then come back and ask questions if you still have any. Also check out the official U.S. copyright web site at http://www.copyright.gov.

[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16659

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58845

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1201405&postcount=4

http://www.writing-world.com/rights/index.shtml

vbrep_register("1300576")

aruna · Jun 3, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
This is sort of like what sometimes hapens with novel writing, only here it's called an "auction." But just as with screenwriting, the average Joe Blow doesn't get to go this route.

Of course he does! Anyone can have an auction. All you have to do is write an auctionable book. Easy-peasy!

That's when you stop being an average Joe Blow.

(If you don't believe me, check out Pat Wood's story. Pat is Orion, an AW member. She was just an average unpublished writer, doing the agent rounds, then she wrote Lottery and the entire publishing world fell to its knees before her.)

About irritating editors

Cluck that.

Critical Member

Too Adorkable for Words

Everything is what it seems.

Passion in full bloom

Too Adorkable for Words

Lost in the Fog

Cluck that.

Too Adorkable for Words

A woman said to write like a man.

Too Adorkable for Words

Lost in mental space.

Where's my tea, please...?

Passion in full bloom

Everything is what it seems.

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