Through the eyes of another...

Starbrazer · May 31, 2007

My question pertains to omniscient books with one POV chapter/scenes... OK, here goes: I am outlining my new book currently and the first four or so chapters are strictly my main POV character, but there are chapters that come later on that are other POV's. If I get the reader used to the main character and then after reading five straight chapters of him then switch to his wife, friend, etc. would that be jarring to the reader despite their POV's are given separate chapters? Or does this even matter? Most of the book will be my main character's viewpoint, but some parts of the story are necessary to tell through other's eyes.

SilverVistani · May 31, 2007

I can't see any real problem with that... And actually, there was another thread along the same lines. Now, it was more along the lines of every single chapter changing perspectives, but I still think you could probably benefit from what myself and others had to say.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65139

*gives a reassuring hug* Best of luck! If you have anymore specific questions, let me know, but I definitely think that I would not mind it at all so long as the distinction is clearly made. (which is pretty much what I told the other person.)

Best of luck! Let me know how it goes!

Manderley · Jun 1, 2007

If you let it go as much as five chapter before you let me know the story is told in changing POV, then yes, I'd be a little confused and annoyed. Not enough to put the book down, though.

Bufty · Jun 1, 2007

I don't see why annoyance and confusion should be an automatic reaction at all to a POV change in Chapter 4/5.

There would surely only be confusion if there was no obvious reason or benefit to the story for changing the POV.

Manderley said:
If you let it go as much as five chapter before you let me know the story is told in changing POV, then yes, I'd be a little confused and annoyed. Not enough to put the book down, though.

dub · Jun 1, 2007

Let the reader know a shift is coming or otherwise distinguish the shift. Bronte and Rhys did it successfully.

Manderley · Jun 1, 2007

Bufty said:
I don't see why annoyance and confusion should be an automatic reaction at all to a POV change in Chapter 4/5.

I didn't say it was an automatic reaction, I said it was MY reaction. Not quite same, now, is it?

larocca · Jun 1, 2007

There's not a thing wrong with changing POV characters when the chapters change. Just be sure to quickly make it apparent that you've done it. Reading one character's POV and thinking it's that POV from the previous chapter(s) can confuse somebody.

Aagh!! It's a blinding flash of the obvious!! :tongue

Actually, done well, a book with shifting POVs has definite advantages. No doubt that's why you want to do it.

Oh man. I'm all over the obvious again. No wonder I quit writing fiction...

ChaosTitan · Jun 1, 2007

Five chapters in, it would be more jarring if the POV switch was to a new character we've never heard of. If it's to someone we've met or has been mentioned, it wouldn't bother me in the least.

Starbrazer · Jun 2, 2007

SilverVistani said:
I can't see any real problem with that... And actually, there was another thread along the same lines. Now, it was more along the lines of every single chapter changing perspectives, but I still think you could probably benefit from what myself and others had to say.

*gives a reassuring hug* Best of luck! If you have anymore specific questions, let me know, but I definitely think that I would not mind it at all so long as the distinction is clearly made. (which is pretty much what I told the other person.)

Best of luck! Let me know how it goes!

Thank you very much ;-) By the way, cool artwork!

Starbrazer · Jun 2, 2007

thumbs up

chaostitan said:
Five chapters in, it would be more jarring if the POV switch was to a new character we've never heard of. If it's to someone we've met or has been mentioned, it wouldn't bother me in the least.

OK, you have answered in volumes and you probably don't even know it. The characters I am alternating are well mentioned and tracked through the course of these four or so chapters. Most of the chapters are my viewpoint character though, making it almost intimate, but there are situations in which he cannot see or know and in those instances I plan to tell another story, but of course not first without introduction. One instance my two characters (boyfriend and girlfriend) visit a college buddy who holds vital information in defeating the evil that has befell them, and of course, because this college buddy tries to help he is then later killed by this evil, but I want to show it, you know. Not just have them hear about it later on which might work, but wouldn't be the same... Who sees their novels like freaking movies here???? I am one. I possess a very vivid imagination that is always alive ;-) Always...

JoNightshade · Jun 2, 2007

My current WIP is told from 2 points of view. At first it was just going to be one, my MC, but then I realized I needed to have some scenes from this girl's POV too. However I felt weird having it be "his" book with just a couple of interjections from her, so I ended up having them share it.

My point is, maybe it would help if you could scatter in a couple of scenes from your second POV earlier on, so the reader is used to occasionally looking at things through her eyes.

eliflauta · Jun 2, 2007

As long as you point it out at the beginning of the chapter instead of abandoning the poor reader to fend for himself and figure it out all on his lonesome, I think it's a great idea. It gives a new level of depth to both the main character and the person giving the new POV. Good luck!

justpat · Jun 2, 2007

As long as it's obvious that a POV change just occurred, then I'm OK with it. What I hate is reading several pages with a dumb look on my face until I finally realize that the POV changed. OK, so the dumb look had nothing to do with the book, but I still like to know right away that the POV actually changed.

Starbrazer · Jun 2, 2007

Divine Knowledge just might be Common Sense (;-}

eliflauta said:
As long as you point it out at the beginning of the chapter instead of abandoning the poor reader to fend for himself and figure it out all on his lonesome, I think it's a great idea. It gives a new level of depth to both the main character and the person giving the new POV. Good luck!

I have read novels were I got lost even though it was a separate chapter so I know all too well what you mean. My chapter/scene breaks are very very clear and I do make it a point to get that across at the very beginning always. I don't know how many novels I quit reading because of this. In my fiction first the character is introduced ("at least" always with one chapter's notice) and then he gets his own, but never does this character appear out of nowhere. You, the reader, already know who he is and expect this to come through foreshadowing... See, the reader really wants to know what is going to happen before it happens...it's strange I know, but that is human nature for you. The equivalent is when you tell someone a story about a criminal and how they got caught and then they tell you what they would've done to not get caught :-0 The reader MUST figure it out in order for it to be a best seller, and this is not divine knowledge, trust me! Actually, it's common sense ;-)

Chasing the Horizon · Jun 2, 2007

argenianpoet said:
Who sees their novels like freaking movies here???? I am one. I possess a very vivid imagination that is always alive ;-) Always...

I see my novels like movies too. Very long, detailed movies where I know what everyone's thinking and can control the camera angle and even have some director's control, but far from total control. Yes, perfectly vivid. My beta readers say my books read like movies too (super clear images).

RLSMiller · Jun 3, 2007

Hope To The Horizon said:
I see my novels like movies too. Very long, detailed movies where I know what everyone's thinking and can control the camera angle and even have some director's control, but far from total control. Yes, perfectly vivid. My beta readers say my books read like movies too (super clear images).

Yeah, I do something totally similar. If I'm writing a scene, I'm always playing it out in my head, thinking about how it would work on film. And if it can't work on film, I don't usually put it in. The whole thing is quite cinematic as a result, even down to the overall pacing. And with characters, I sometimes act out scenes just to get a better grip on them, and make sure that what I've imagined will easily translate into someone else's imagination.

I think this is probably due to my formal acting experience, and my not so secret desire to get my novel turned into a film.

I know that the imagination will always be a greater tool than film technology, and therefore you shouldn't really limit yourself by what can realistically be accomplished, but I've found that playing by the same rules has made my work that much more believable, and easier to picture.

Also, I think it's good to remember that film is a pretty good role model for "show don't tell." Apart from through dialogue, directors generally have to show everything to their audience - they don't have the luxury of telling things (at least not as easily as a writer can). So by thinking about things cinematically, you more or less show rather than tell by default, whereas the act of writing can often lend itself to telling rather than showing by default.

Starbrazer · Jun 3, 2007

cinematic viewpoint

RLSMiller said:
Also, I think it's good to remember that film is a pretty good role model for "show don't tell." Apart from through dialogue, directors generally have to show everything to their audience - they don't have the luxury of telling things (at least not as easily as a writer can). So by thinking about things cinematically, you more or less show rather than tell by default, whereas the act of writing can often lend itself to telling rather than showing by default.

The fact is you can't totally escape tell no matter how much you try. This is an interesting concept you have posed, but the bottom line is writer's tell stories. It's more of an issue of balance more than anything else. How much do you balance your show and tell? That is the real craft, not cutting it out totally. When you do that the story sucks because there is no narrator and that ties in with viewpoint (narrator = viewpoint character, or at least should instead of the old fly-on-the-wall-omniscient-see-all). Whoever the viewpoint character is for that chapter the narrating voice should be customized to their mind/intelligence/emotion so we feel that. That is the integral part of tell that should not be cut out. Also, the narrator is the intimate voice people come to love as they read your book. Movies may be all show, but they head-hop like crazy. Most of what I used to write was the same, but now I write one viewpoint chapters/scenes, resisting the urge of my imagination to head-hop in the same scene. My cinematic imagination sometimes conflicts with the craft of writing, but makes for some pretty awesome scenes likewise.

RLSMiller · Jun 3, 2007

argenianpoet said:
The fact is you can't totally escape tell no matter how much you try. This is an interesting concept you have posed, but the bottom line is writer's tell stories. It's more of an issue of balance more than anything else. How much do you balance your show and tell? That is the real craft, not cutting it out totally. When you do that the story sucks because there is no narrator and that ties in with viewpoint (narrator = viewpoint character, or at least should instead of the old fly-on-the-wall-omniscient-see-all). Whoever the viewpoint character is for that chapter the narrating voice should be customized to their mind/intelligence/emotion so we feel that. That is the integral part of tell that should not be cut out. Also, the narrator is the intimate voice people come to love as they read your book. Movies may be all show, but they head-hop like crazy. Most of what I used to write was the same, but now I write one viewpoint chapters/scenes, resisting the urge of my imagination to head-hop in the same scene. My cinematic imagination sometimes conflicts with the craft of writing, but makes for some pretty awesome scenes likewise.

Oh, most definitely. If you classify narrative voice as 'tell,' then my work is full of it. You can't escape that, particularly if you're writing in first person or third limited, and why would you want to? If you did, then you'd have lost one of the advantages of writing in those view points. But as you said, it's a fine balance. Too much of anything is never good.

In my work, I have to monitor myself, as I can get too caught up in establishing character through narrative voice, and not actually showing the character in action that supports the narrative voice. As I'm writing with three different first person narrators, it's a tricky balance to manage, as I have to make the voices distinct enough, while at the same time maintaining the pace of the novel and providing enough action to move the plot forwards.

In general, I think it's purely a matter of writerly intuition as to what needs telling and what needs showing, (e,g, when a heartfelt sentiment has more impact than a tear rolling down a character's cheek). I would never eliminate tell completely. As you said, the ultimate craft is using both to your advantage, rather than limiting yourself to one.

Chasing the Horizon · Jun 3, 2007

argenianpoet said:
When you do that the story sucks because there is no narrator and that ties in with viewpoint (narrator = viewpoint character, or at least should instead of the old fly-on-the-wall-omniscient-see-all). Whoever the viewpoint character is for that chapter the narrating voice should be customized to their mind/intelligence/emotion so we feel that. That is the integral part of tell that should not be cut out. Also, the narrator is the intimate voice people come to love as they read your book.

Whether that's true depends on what POV structure you're using. The POV character should have a distinct narrative voice in first person and deep third limited, but not in distant third limited or omniscient. I think all the POV structures have a place, and you should choose the one best suited to your story. Right now I have WIPs in everything except omniscient (which I do intend to try someday when I have more experience).

herdon · Jun 4, 2007

I have a work that is 99% in one PoV but one very small scene in chapter 10+ (forget where, low teens I think) is in a different PoV and one other chapter is in a different PoV. The short scene is important. I'm letting the reader in on something that the main character won't find out until much, much later. The other chapter plays on that.

There isn't anything 'wrong' with doing this sort of thing. Like most stuff, it comes down to whether or not the writer was able to pull it off.

Starbrazer · Jun 6, 2007

Hope To The Horizon said:
Whether that's true depends on what POV structure you're using. The POV character should have a distinct narrative voice in first person and deep third limited, but not in distant third limited or omniscient. I think all the POV structures have a place, and you should choose the one best suited to your story. Right now I have WIPs in everything except omniscient (which I do intend to try someday when I have more experience).

What do you mean by deep third limited?

Ziljon · Jun 6, 2007

There's a bestseller out now, Extremely Loud & Incredibly Close, by Jonathan Safron Foer, that does exactly that. It starts out for several chapters from a nine-year-old boy's POV and then switches two his grandfather and grandmother's intermittently.

So, it's not that unheard of.

Starbrazer · Jun 6, 2007

Ziljon said:
There's a bestseller out now, Extremely Loud & Incredibly Close, by Jonathan Safron Foer, that does exactly that. It starts out for several chapters from a nine-year-old boy's POV and then switches two his grandfather and grandmother's intermittently.

So, it's not that unheard of.

OK, now that sounds very interesting ;-) I think I'll most definitely check that one out.

Thanks.

Starbrazer · Jun 6, 2007

tricky

RLSMiller said:
Oh, most definitely. If you classify narrative voice as 'tell,' then my work is full of it. You can't escape that, particularly if you're writing in first person or third limited, and why would you want to? If you did, then you'd have lost one of the advantages of writing in those view points. But as you said, it's a fine balance. Too much of anything is never good.

In my work, I have to monitor myself, as I can get too caught up in establishing character through narrative voice, and not actually showing the character in action that supports the narrative voice. As I'm writing with three different first person narrators, it's a tricky balance to manage, as I have to make the voices distinct enough, while at the same time maintaining the pace of the novel and providing enough action to move the plot forwards.

In general, I think it's purely a matter of writerly intuition as to what needs telling and what needs showing, (e,g, when a heartfelt sentiment has more impact than a tear rolling down a character's cheek). I would never eliminate tell completely. As you said, the ultimate craft is using both to your advantage, rather than limiting yourself to one.

That's tricky, I'd definitely agree. Especially switching back and forth and all... I wish you all the best on that endeavor; nowadays my fiction is dominated by one strong recurring character all the way through, with friends, family, and acquaintances scattered about... It's all great fun!

Writing + Passion = GREAT FUN!

Don't forget that either ;-)

mscelina · Jun 7, 2007

RLSMiller said:
Also, I think it's good to remember that film is a pretty good role model for "show don't tell." Apart from through dialogue, directors generally have to show everything to their audience - they don't have the luxury of telling things (at least not as easily as a writer can). So by thinking about things cinematically, you more or less show rather than tell by default, whereas the act of writing can often lend itself to telling rather than showing by default.

I have to agree with the first part of this. As a writer who also has a serious theatrical background (card-carrying and dues-paying, thank you!) I find that my ability to *see* my story cinematically is a great advantage, particularly since my first series is told entirely in first person.

On the other hand, I'm not entirely sold on the concept that the act of writing can often lend itself to telling rather than showing by default. perhaps that is a mistake an inexperienced writer might make, but as we all become more comfortable with our craft that tendency lessens. That's why I think reading (a lot!) is so important for a writer. You absorb better writing techniques as your exposure to other writers increases.

Through the eyes of another...

Starbrazer

SilverVistani

Manderley

Slowly does it.

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

dub

He ain't right...

Manderley

Slowly does it.

larocca

Proofreader

ChaosTitan

Around

Starbrazer

Starbrazer

JoNightshade

has finally arrived

eliflauta

justpat

QueryTracker

Starbrazer

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind

RLSMiller

Starbrazer

RLSMiller

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind

herdon

What's up?

Starbrazer

Ziljon

Tortilla di Patate

Starbrazer

Starbrazer

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you