Ingrates Posting In A Critical Forum

Why is everyone freaking out (I don't mean you Limeydawg). http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65762

JJ

Just read this and had to wonder if something strange is in the air people are sucking in. Time of year? People need to put their thick skin back on, no matter how warm it is.

I'm not freaking. However, I am guilty of referencing LimeyDawg's crits. The thing is, I find his comments useful, so they often inform my crit of a poem - even when I disagree. But I think I disagree politely, if not - apologies. All criticism is a gift (well, not the sisterly criticism that tells me my jeans are bagging). I hope people aren't chased away from critting because I find the forum really useful for improving my poems and getting feedback from people who know how hard the struggle is to put the intangible into words.

LD - congrats on finishing the first draft. Happy revisioning! I'm about to start Chapter ! - just as soon as I stop this procrastinating

Limey, I'm sorry this happened to you.

This is why we have an AW Chapbook separate from the Critique forum.

It's only through the selfless, honest efforts of all of you that we have a thriving critique forum.

Thank you to the vast majority of you who read and provide feedback so well. You're a grand group of people, and I love being one of your number.

If you're receiving abuse because of your crits, please let me know. I'm only too happy to look into it.

Most people here understand how to deal with criticism (constructive or otherwise). The rule of thumb is: Say "Thank you for your input", then move on. It's up to the poet whether to act on the feedback.

Attacking people, publicly or privately, for having taken the time read and give a candid opinion is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

By the same token, crits must focus on the poem; they shouldn't be used as a vehicle for attacking the poet. (That didn't happen in this case; I'm just mentioning it for completeness' sake.)

Any questions? Please PM me.

Thank you!

I've been chased away from online crits entirely. A big waste of time when so many turn into pointless shouting wars from people who think they're beyond all suggestions. But then we wonder why they asked for a crit in the first place ... strange world.

It's not really safe to comment on actual submissions to publications either, since any one of those authors could flip out and go slander the editors in flame forums. Thus the number of form rejections used.

How unfortunate. I don't mind doing private crits for people if I know they're not insane. But it then eats into my limited creative time, so there's not much room for them.

;-)

LD:

I'm pretty much where you are. Critiquing on this board is often an exercise in frustration. If you are honest with a poem, and point out the negatives, you are likely to get panned, either by the poet or by some other critter who thinks you are loony. I have almost given up critiquing on-line. If it weren't for my need to post a poem once in a while for critique, I wouldn't critique at all, here or anywhere.

Recently you posted (I think it was you) a sample of a knee-jerk critique from another site, a site I know well, where rudeness masquerades as expertise. While that site is arguably over-stuffed with rules, one rule they have is excellent: No arguing with the critter. That's not because the critter is always right, but because who the h------ wants to critique, to maybe spend an hour reading and re-reading a poem and formulating a critique, to figure out how to be polite when the poem contains little the critter feels can be praised, when they will receive abuse as a result? Every time I give up being polite here, it costs me. But to be polite typically doubles the amount of time a critique takes, as you look for wording that conveys the message "this poem sucks" without saying that; to try to find some redeeming value in the poem such that the poet is not damaged for life and out looking for a therapist. Critique is a no win situation.

NDG

I've appreciated what LD has had to bring to the table in terms of critiques. His are among the best I've read here or elsewhere in terms of completeness and good suggestions.

I'm sorry you've had this experience. Heck, I've often reached a poem that he has critiqued and really could only say, "Listen to LD--he's spot on."

Often new members who haven't given any critiques themselves go off like landmines. New members with a little brains look around and make a contributions before bestowing their great works of genius upon us poor ungrateful mortals....

My best guess is that classes have ended, it's spring and the delicate flowers are hitting the forums

I hesitate to put my two cents in, given our past interaction LD but here goes...

I've been on this forum for 3 months and you have had at least 4 or 5 different arguments. Two of them with me.

I know you're trying to help. I just think you come off harsh and insensitive, and even cruel sometimes, with no thought to how someone might take your words.

I for one generally appreciate your comments, but there is a complete lack of give and take with you. It's fine for you to say repeatedly that you're no expert, but when someone has the audacity to actually ask you a question, then there's quite a different attitude from you. One of how dare you! This is my opinion. You're not entitled to question me or ask for explanation.

And then you come here to the discussion section and post some rant about it. This particular event cycle has happend at least twice in the last two weeks I think.

You say things like this is not your forum and you only want to help and offer your opinion, but when the rubber hits the road, you do act as though you want to control everything, from who should crit, to who should post, to what can be asked or discussed in a thread.

Often, I have been interested in your opinion and wanted to follow up with you, but you never want to be questioned, on anything.

I don't think you mean to, and certainly hope you don't, think you're gods gift to the world of crit, but you do come off sounding that way sometimes. I don't think you intend this but it just comes out in the phrasing or word choice, or lack of words.

There's a difference between:

This sucks, don't quit your day job!
or:
Archaic, cliche, doesn't fit the style
and:
I like this but am confused by your use of xxxx, it doesn't seem to fit the rest of your effort

You're somewhere in the middle, cold, impersonal and often, unencouraging. Which is fine if you've got the skin to take their responses.

I got a PM from the same person I think you're referring to. She didn't care for my crit either, but who cares? I was nice about it, I spoke the truth, her rebuttal didn't make sense to me, but hey, it's no skin off my nose. (I could be wrong and you mean someone or some instance totally different)

I have tried twice to put our differences aside and welcome your comments and critiques, but everytime I think we're making some kind of bond or friendship, you come back with this crap about not questioning you or your opinion. And I keep failling to see how that will help me learn, either anything about my craft, or about you as a friend.

I have still yet to understand how single syllable, unstressed words, can sometimes be stressed and sometimes not to satisfy the needs of iambic pentameter. I would love to get your input and instruction, but your attitude of never being questioned about a crit, and or subsequent arguments, has kept me from asking.

In the three months I've been here you have gotten into it with Kie, Louis, Dave and myself. And based on posts and PM's apparently you've gotten into it with quite a few others. Others still, have removed their posts, or ignored your posts in general. Say what you want, but if you're really not trying to run this place, then maybe a little look in the mirror is called for. If what you really want is to help and encourage and guide, then stop worrying about the rules or everyone conforming to your way of doing things.

I for one would welcome you back into my world and hope to learn from you. But you gotta lighten up a little bit. Allow for give and take, question and answer, learning and growth, differing opinion with discussion leading to a common understanding, or at the very least an agreement to disagree and go forward, etc. Questions aren't generally attack, at least not from me.

Despite what everyone would like to think, opinions are rarely free. They almost always carry with them a need for explanation, and often a need to be defended if others are going to understand what is meant by them and how they were arrived at and that they do indeed apply to the situation at hand.

If I were to scan someone's poem and came back and told them it's all over the place, some is iambic some trochaic, some doesn't fit any meter, the rhymes or poor, etc. I might be right but I haven't addressed their intent, allowed for the flexibility of modern poetry, or spoken to the fact that the poem actually works and make sense as it stands. And I haven't couched my opinion in the basket of my own preference. I come off as arrogant and know it all, or as ignorant of new forms and attempts of expression.

I think you commented in one of your crits about the speed of light and how it woudn't lightly fall, and I found myself wondering if you seriously never heard of or allowed for artistic license, or literary phrases such as "Sunlight falls gently throught the window..." or other such things that allow light, in writing, to do just about anything the writer wants. It seemed rediculously literal and strick when considering poetry or literature of any kind other than a technical manual.

Well, I doubt this will be taken in the spirit intended, and that is sad because I do miss your crits. But, as far as I'm concerned, the very first rule of having and expressing an opinion, is being ready and able to defend it. There are no free rides in life if you step out and take part in it.

Guys, discussions/issues between the two of you might be better suited to PMs.

Thanks.

No, there won't be any further disussions between us. I made an offer, again, of peace and friendship, and as usual, because it referenced his own words and his own attitudes, he has problems with it. I give up, he wins, and is perfectly welcome to set the rules of who and what and how on this forum.

I, for one, am disappointed: I like reading other people's drama

Shame on you, veinglory.

It's more like being shanghai-ed when it does happen.

They issue you with some digital superpowers and a box full of kittens.

Don't make me use the kittens.

I eat kittens-nice barbequed kittens-hmmm-kittens-hmmm and arghhhosciousness!

PS-me is also an ingrateable potable-or would that be potably ungrateful? HMMM-kittens!!!

LimeyDawg said:

Gaaaaahhh, I was going to tell you not to bring up kittens...psst(it'll wake the lobster...)

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Love a good meee-owe in the morning with a spot of tea and some spam spam spam spam!