Join-the-dots vs. the 'spark'

ATP

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I rewatched a couple of films recently-U571 and The Insider. Here you have two films as different as the proverbial chalk and cheese.

Rewatching U571, I felt it was a competent film - certainly in terms of direction, but the script later struck me as almost join-the-dots for an action film.

At key points in the script, I found myself watching the timer on the machine, and mentally checking off a 'list': 15 mins - establish character/setting/story; 15-30 mins-development; 45 mins-first action 'bit' and so on. The characters were, as would be expected in an action film, secondary to the plot and action.

When I see a film such as The Insider, I am unable to see 'into' it - I couldn't see the 'dots'. Perhaps this is my lack of experience, but there did not appear the same sense as that with the U571 script. Rather, it seemed to display something else entirely - call it what you will, but most will simply call it 'spark'.

This makes me think that much of what makes a good film, at its essence or foundation, is the quality of the story, and how it is put together. Perhaps the script more than either direction or acting. I think that direction can overcome script deficiencies at the least, or even go beyond them to turn something competent into a gem.

I wonder how long it took Michael Mann and his co-writer to get to the finished script? Any one here know about the journey of this script?

On another level, what do others here think about the 'spark'? Is my view of this script misplaced? I sometimes begin to think that this is the same for literature, or poetry or plays - the 'spark' will stand out always, and always make the piece stand out, but such are hard to come by/produced rarely, especially in the face of Hollywood producer demands and their 'conventional wisdom'.
 

zahra

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I rewatched a couple of films recently-U571 and The Insider. Here you have two films as different as the proverbial chalk and cheese.

Rewatching U571, I felt it was a competent film - certainly in terms of direction, but the script later struck me as almost join-the-dots for an action film.

At key points in the script, I found myself watching the timer on the machine, and mentally checking off a 'list': 15 mins - establish character/setting/story; 15-30 mins-development; 45 mins-first action 'bit' and so on. The characters were, as would be expected in an action film, secondary to the plot and action.

When I see a film such as The Insider, I am unable to see 'into' it - I couldn't see the 'dots'. Perhaps this is my lack of experience, but there did not appear the same sense as that with the U571 script. Rather, it seemed to display something else entirely - call it what you will, but most will simply call it 'spark'.

This makes me think that much of what makes a good film, at its essence or foundation, is the quality of the story, and how it is put together. Perhaps the script more than either direction or acting. I think that direction can overcome script deficiencies at the least, or even go beyond them to turn something competent into a gem.

I wonder how long it took Michael Mann and his co-writer to get to the finished script? Any one here know about the journey of this script?

On another level, what do others here think about the 'spark'? Is my view of this script misplaced? I sometimes begin to think that this is the same for literature, or poetry or plays - the 'spark' will stand out always, and always make the piece stand out, but such are hard to come by/produced rarely, especially in the face of Hollywood producer demands and their 'conventional wisdom'.

I certainly don't think direction can save a weak script. I believe that it all starts with the script, the script, the script.

Not having seen either of the films you mention, I can't comment on them, but if a silm has 'the spark', believe me, it will have been lit by (guess what?) the script.
 

NikeeGoddess

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When I see a film such as The Insider, I am unable to see 'into' it - I couldn't see the 'dots'. Perhaps this is my lack of experience, but there did not appear the same sense as that with the U571 script. Rather, it seemed to display something else entirely - call it what you will, but most will simply call it 'spark'

i don't really get your "spark" analysis. to me it's just a "closed" script - a mystery where the audience doesn't know what is going on and not really sure who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. one would assume that bank robbers are the bad guys but in the final scenes we realized that they were secret robin hood nazi hunters. and was the jodi foster character a good guy or a bad guy?

i don't know U571 but i can only assume that it's an open story where you know what is going on and therefore can easily check you watch for the appropriate inciting incidences, uh ohs, and oh shits!
 

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A,

There are certainly genre differences between how obvious a story's plot points are. Action movies tend to telegraph the important moments far more than other genres do. That being said, it doesn't mean that those moments aren't there in other genres.

It's been too long since I've watched either of those movies to offer you a detailed analysis of either one, but if you pay attention to when the important new pieces of information are given out in The Insider, you may begin to see what's happening when. When do we meet the major characters? When do they meet each other? One of the things I've noticed is that in some movies where the plot points are a little fuzzy, it's because the function has been spread out over more than one scene, so rather than being one big atom bomb turning point, it's a sequence of little firecrackers instead.
 

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oops - sorry, i thought Inside Man, not the Insider

as you were
 

ATP

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A,

There are certainly genre differences between how obvious a story's plot points are. Action movies tend to telegraph the important moments far more than other genres do. That being said, it doesn't mean that those moments aren't there in other genres.

It's been too long since I've watched either of those movies to offer you a detailed analysis of either one, but if you pay attention to when the important new pieces of information are given out in The Insider, you may begin to see what's happening when. When do we meet the major characters? When do they meet each other? One of the things I've noticed is that in some movies where the plot points are a little fuzzy, it's because the function has been spread out over more than one scene, so rather than being one big atom bomb turning point, it's a sequence of little firecrackers instead.


Hmmm...somethings concerning genre and script writing that I had not known.Thanks.
 

pconsidine

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I'm currently developing an independent film script, so many of these same questions have been running through my mind. It was a good opportunity to then them through out loud.

How big the dramatic turning points are depends heavily on the nature of the character arcs at work. If the arc is a small, yet meaningful one, the turning points will necessarily be more subtle – a change in attitude or expression as opposed to a change of face (à la Face Off).