Tough Crits

[LimeyDawg]

Folks,
For those of you who are a little discouraged by tough crits, I want to share with you what it's like to post a poem at another poetry site out there that claims to be geared toward helping people improve their poetry. Now, think of the toughest, meanest crit you've seen here. Now, check out what you might have got elsewhere:

There is nothing remotely original in your typed text that you've posted.

Avoid cliches and abstractions.

Check out the XXXXX XX XXXXXX forum if you're interested in ever writing a poem in your lifetime.

Read ten thousand poems before you attempt to write another one.

Learn how to punctuate.

Try to have your writing make sense.

Don't attempt to write another rhyming poem for three years, or at least until you've learned some of the more basic aspects of writing.

I seriously doubt you're equipped to function here.

Make an attempt to read and abide by the Posting Guidelines.

I'm going to close this while you work on your critiques.

yeah
right


moderator
That, from a moderator.

My purpose for bringing this is to show the value of AW and also, of less than happy/fluffy crits. I doubt seriously that anyone here will ever say things aimed squarely at discouraging your continuing attempts, good and bad, at poetry. Like all art forms, it needs to be nurtured. Poets are made through the process of applying their skills to their art, then stripping away the pieces that don't work, then reapplying. There is a learning curve involved.

We should never discourage, nor feel discouraged, to write poetry because we don't meet the standards of the self-appointed Poetry Elite. Each time we allow ourselves to be hurt into silence, the whole of poetry is diminished slightly. I've been rightly called to the mat in the past for too-harsh crits. I hope I've never discouraged anyone from either posting at AW or, worse, ever trying poetry again.

So, to get to the point (I hear you cheering, LC) please try to remember these things:

1) Crit honestly, but always, always, always, address the poem, not the poet.
2) Use tact. "This sucks" will do infinitely more damage than "this piece has many issues".
3) If you post a poem for critique, make sure you're okay with hearing that your baby is ugly. Don't be offended if somebody doesn't like the poem because its quite okay for that person to feel that way. Find value in everything offered and always thank the critters for their time.

Sorry for chewing up space with this, but I thought at least some of you should find it interesting.

Mark

[awake]

Yes, I agree with you entirely.
Those same typical posts can be found multiplied in places around the web. Lots of initial poets come there, some with very strong original ideas, but perhaps the weakness for abstractions fails them to become humiliated by such discouraging comments thanks to the wonderful moderators.
I know I was discouraged before, and it is sad to see the turn-over rate on some of these other sites. Members who have posted not one week ago never post again. Thousands of aspiring poets come year after year and are pushed away rudely and arrogantly.
I'm creating my own poetry site now, in order to try and sustain a positive environment which I feel has been lacking these days.
Sometimes people forget that we are all people, there is no humanism in the world anymore, let alone the web. People are growingly rude and ignorant to each other regarding all the soul things which make us all people. If we can't treat our common man with respect then who can we treat so.
If anyone would like to check out my attempt at poetic democracy then try www.poeticepics.com it's small right now, but in time I hope to have an entire array of topics, not just poetic, offered... in a postive nurturing community of poets.

[scarletpeaches]

Whoa.

Yeah, I'm glad I'm a member of AW. The crits here can be severe...brutally honest, in fact...which I like.

You can be brutally honest AND tactful though, and in the main, AW's critters (ha!) are.

[Angelinity]

Good idea to post this, Mark. Many new poets, and I remember this myself a few years back when I picked up the quill again, tend to take crits personally, and that's exactly the wrong way to look at it.

A good crit, as are the ones I've seen from you, can help a poet see things that he or she missed -- this often happens to me, i get so wrapped up in the words that I fail to see the flaws. And that's why I like to post my poems for critique, because others will likely point out where I slipped and help me look at the poem from a fresh perspective. Then it's up to me to work on it, but when I am ready to take on the challenge, I know exactly where to trim, slice or dice...

Critting someone's work is actually a lot of work -- when not done as quoted above of course, that's just lazy, insensitive and... plain rude. I appreciate all the crits I get here, they've helped me tremendously.

ily

[davids]

One should never write a crit simply to swell one's sexual organ-I agree with Mr. Dawg-the problem is as I have stated-it is so easy for the critters with small organs and great egocentrictic personnas to simply use false intellectual or poetical superiority to maintain an erection. Mr. Dawg by the way gives great crit!!!! That is a compliment in case anyone would misunderstand!

[Stew21]

Good perspective Mark, and agreed. And probably a good time for the reminder, if you don't want that kind of critique, then post in the Chapbook, or, as some people have done, ask for a gentle critique.
If you aren't going to appreciate honesty (sometimes brutal) in the people who crit your work, or you are the type that would be discouraged or take it personally, or even if you just don't plan on changing the words so therefore don't want to waste the time of people who put a lot of effort into a crit, post it so they can comment on it in the Chapbook.
We have a lot of great folks here who spend a lot of time critting not only the content of the poem, but also the technicality of forms, it is a fabulous place to learn and improve your craft.

[LimeyDawg]

Good points, Stew. In regards to brutality, I like to think of getting smacked in the mouth with a studded club, except that the club is covered in a cozy (ala, tea cozy). Still hurts, it just doesn't sting.

[louiscypher]

If you want a bloody good laugh, LD, go to that site and you'll find some of the pieces I especially wrote for those pie-in-sky pricks! Now I purposely constructed the pieces (syntax-icly perfect) to constrict their slimely lil windpipes with their very own philosophy LOL

go on, you'll wet yourself laughing ... then they banned me rofl

PS(look for Nikaya ... it's means Life in Tibet)


Funny thing these human thingies: they've been cruel to be kind for so long that they've lost most of their k/m/ind and kept the rest!

[LimeyDawg]

Can't find Nikaya...what's the screen name?

[louiscypher]

NIKAYA

she'll be out there in the great unknown .... YUP, they've a site outside that poxy site to cast people like moi into...lol

meglo, annit just?

[awake]

Heh, I got banned too hahaha.

[LimeyDawg]

NIKAYA

she'll be out there in the great unknown .... YUP, they've a site outside that poxy site to cast people like moi into...lol

meglo, annit just?Well, I can't find the link, lol.

[solo]

*snigger* J has sooo wound 'em up out there, LD ...

There are other sites which do the opposite as well ... fawn and writhe on junk as if it was a supernova of invention ... that is equally damaging, stunting and utterly delusionary. In either scenario a writer of any calibre is just ego-bait on sites like that. Motives are questionable from all angles "out there" but i've found AW to be Honourable and that is Magnificent.

I'm no crit, though i try in my own way (as you've all seen). I used to know more about how-to, though never to the degree that you lot do and what i knew "back then" is outdated anyhow. At AW i've found honest voices to appreciate and trust .. yours among them, LD - your crits are invaluable and - you don't fool me - totally well meant too! Proper crits of the kind i see here require time; it may not always be easy either when a theme is just so "not you" perhaps - and when the outcome is as uncertain, perhaps, as the initial offering. There must be times when the "why do i bother" feel affects critter too.

I'm grateful that you lot tolerate my almost entirely emotional responses in this forum (not to mention my writing that groans with idiocy sometimes) Given that a writer needs more than i can give technically, I'm glad you suffer me - and i suppose i'll continue to suffer you lot too! *huge grin

S

[davids]

*snigger* J has sooo wound 'em up out there, LD ...

There are other sites which do the opposite as well ... fawn and writhe on junk as if it was a supernova of invention ... that is equally damaging, stunting and utterly delusionary. In either scenario a writer of any calibre is just ego-bait on sites like that. Motives are questionable from all angles "out there" but i've found AW to be Honourable and that is Magnificent.

I'm no crit, though i try in my own way (as you've all seen). I used to know more about how-to, though never to the degree that you lot do and what i knew "back then" is outdated anyhow. At AW i've found honest voices to appreciate and trust .. yours among them, LD - your crits are invaluable and - you don't fool me - totally well meant too! Proper crits of the kind i see here require time; it may not always be easy either when a theme is just so "not you" perhaps - and when the outcome is as uncertain, perhaps, as the initial offering. There must be times when the "why do i bother" feel affects critter too.

I'm grateful that you lot tolerate my almost entirely emotional responses in this forum (not to mention my writing that groans with idiocy sometimes) Given that a writer needs more than i can give technically, I'm glad you suffer me - and i suppose i'll continue to suffer you lot too! *huge grin

S


Welcome to the club of the idiot groaners-we could start one I supp-hose!

[louiscypher]

If it won't bleed, zealots can kill it, shelly! no pun intended either!

The site in question has gutter sucking scum whom use signature philosophies and shithouse dead poet societies to back up there lacking/ey intelligentsia's... both of which I used to choke the bastards with! lol

[davids]

If it won't bleed, zealots can kill it, shelly! no pun intended either!

The site in question has gutter sucking scum whom use signature philosophies and shithouse dead poet societies to back up there lacking/ey intelligentsia's... both of which I used to choke the bastards with! lol


I'm ancient louis but stronger than most men and women at any age-glad to help-I'll hold-you spray!!!!

[louiscypher]

You is beautiful, my friend. But this thing I call me is nothing more than an experiment with life ... and fittingly so as I deserve everything I get ...good or bad!

As such however, I've a nasty habit of pushing friends out of the way to get at what might otherly/or has harm/ed them ... then I simply face up alone and sweep the field from beneath them ... the harmful ones that is!

I was guilty of this crime at ABC, UKA (to protect a precious silentmemory and a liquid promise (aka's)...and also at many other sites (Shelly actually) ... but I never cast the first stone (they foolishly did however)!

J

thanks for the offer my friend, but NO ... and I pray it doesn't happen here!

[davids]

It was a figurative offer-although I can-support-you know all that kind of thing. I don't know any other places-have lived here pretty much since the start and plan to stay-however if you keep being mean to me-well-I might have to go buy a quart of peanut butter to mix with my yellow jellow-ju know compadre?

[LimeyDawg]

Dave, a good multi-vitamin will clear up that yellow jellow thingy...

[louiscypher]

Nahhhh...suck it up, or stroll ja finger through it...ju-know

rofl

[P.H.Delarran]

Well said Mark, and Stew too for offering the opposite side of the coin. We're fortunate to have the critters we have here.

[davids]

Dave, a good multi-vitamin will clear up that yellow jellow thingy...

I'll have a go-will wash them down with the appropriate liquid!!!!

[ddgryphon]

Whoa.

Yeah, I'm glad I'm a member of AW. The crits here can be severe...brutally honest, in fact...which I like.

You can be brutally honest AND tactful though, and in the main, AW's critters (ha!) are.


This is at the heart of what makes this site work for me when so many others haven't. There is a mutual respect and the expectation of honesty not driven by a desire to tear you down, but rather help you build up more strongly.

[mjlpsu]

Tough crits are necessary. Through two years of grad school, I was searching for those... unfortunately, most of my teachers gave vague encouragement when they should've been saying the piece didn't work. But I did manage to learn to interpret a few of the vague nuances of teacher-speak... the more general comments meant that the work sucked to some extent. I also did have one teacher who was a tough one and tore apart my work to make it better. She was a great teacher and a great writer.

[BrokenSword]

LW;

Ha--it made me smile/smirk as I read your original post because I know exactly where that crit came from -- tis where I 'grew up' and so, I recognize the verbiage and tone which marks your post/crit. Been there and not quite done that, don't you know?

I've eschewed so many of the 'poetry crit forums' simply because as bad as the example you posted was, there's a huge discrepancy in the number of sites that do just exactly the opposite. I wonder, which is worse? I guess it depends on your pov. I learned how NOT to do crits on that very same site and yet, I also took the knowledge they were presenting and encapsulated it as my own. There is such a delicate balance between helping and hurting. I can tell you however, it has been my experience that the ratio of those who really want help and those who want to be backpatted is like 1 to 100. The reason such advice as you've shown in the form of a crit is bad is only in the fact that no hope is preserved. That said, EVEN if one couches the same language better, unless the original poster of the piece is open to learning, ALL the words will hurt to some degree. This has been my experience. Too many poets are of the assumption their work is their child or, that the 'critter' is knowledgable ONLY if they agree with thte OP. When push comes to shove, I find that few are actually willing to TRY the suggestions and see how the work revises. You have to be open to suggestion before any learning will occur. So, it's a dual-edged blade, this 'hard crit'. You'll NEVER be the best poet you can be if you don't fall on this blade. I guarantee it. You have to be willing to go through some pain to experience growth--it is impossible any other way. IF the idea is to be a better writer, then you should listen, and even if the advice is harsh (as the crit shown), find the pearls of wisdom that still exist. That is the problem with almost all net sites; the vast majority are too 'fluffy' and the others are 'too arrogant'. Who coins these labels? We do; if you believe as the 'arrogant ones', you will no doubt learn to write better but now will have an attitude that most of the 'vast majority' of writers will eschew. You have a small audience in which to pass on your new found knowledge, should you deign to. If you're one of 'those' in which your feelings are of utmost importance, you'll never get past this barrier and learn what the mind needs to know in order to grow in your writership. JMHO. For those that take the time and pour it into their 'students', there should always be a 'give or take' type attitude but in no way should the critter be taken for granted or disrespected. Those that do put in time understand what it takes--both to create the works they 'teach' and how much effort a crit actually takes. If I were to again crit, the typical version would be line-by-line, probably 40 minutes worth of straight 'idea-doping' and all manner of issues would be addressed along with a lot of hand holding--when it is needed. I typically expect the poster to actually read the crit, think about it, come back with comments and opinions that continue the dialog AND attempt some sort of revision based on what I'm talking about. No effort is the surest way to disrespect the time of a critter. Now, I'm of course assuming that the critter is giving reasons and evidence for any and all advice so there is the basis of truth, skewed though it might be.

Anyway, I once posted a crit in a self-labeled 'Brutal Crit Forum' and found out that their definition of 'brutal' meant I should have merely slapped the poster's hand, not bit it off with the truth about how lousy the piece was. And no, I did not say; 'your piece sucks' but I did say things like; this will never rise above an average poem simply because of all the lousy concepts that were employed in favor of time-tested better ones. In truth, this poster was a 'musician/poet' and was posting lyrics in a poetry forum, seeking validation of his obvious poetic literacy and acumen. Imagine that, some one like myself actually showing the rest of the forum how his 'poem' was lyrics and unmasking him for a pretender. Lyrics are not poems, friends, else why have the distinction? Bon Jovi put out any new musical poems on the radio lately? I think not...

So anyway, I find that the vast majority are fluffers and want it that way, whether they give or take the fluff. Then there's the middle group and those are ambivalent because they really don't know how far they want to take their craft (for them, tis an craft, not an art) and so, shy when the heat gets too hot in the kitchen. The very few that are left don't care anymore what the fluffers and middle-of-the-road folks are doing because it's been too obvious that the desire to 'go there' is lacking. When you've tasted champagne, beer is still good but not as filling--imo. So, you get some arrogance that invades and seeks to hold on to its niche, as all endangered species will. Finding the 'student' that truly wishes to 'go there', to get through crits that are either intentionally harsh or mistakenly so, is extremely rare. The mind has to rise above the heart and our own humanity to see past the critter's flaws well enough to continue the dialog. See, the truth is that even the critter has something to learn and sometimes, forgets this fact. It takes two open minds with the same drive and purpose to find a 'better place', esp re poetry. It's really too bad that more don't actually dissociate their words from their feelings and see that expressing in new/better ways is more important than themselves. Course, this goes for critters too, most notably THOSE you directed the arrow at with your original post, LD.

But I will say; I'm much the better poet for having been there than if I'd never have started up. That much is the truth. Still, I left when I could no longer handle the treatment of so many good, trying folks. That site has had a lot of turnover since I left and proved themselves, despite the knowledge base that is there, to be no better than the majority of fluff sites with the same turnover.

All in all, if you want to be a better writer, learn to see the truths and forget about how your feelings might be bleeding. If you want the warm fuzzies, do the opposite and only listen to those who say words you want to hear. Isn't that universal for human nature?


Stepping down off my box, now, picking up my dented stir-fry pan and placing it on head.


Michael aka BrokenSword

[dclary]

Folks,
For those of you who are a little discouraged by tough crits, I want to share with you what it's like to post a poem at another poetry site out there that claims to be geared toward helping people improve their poetry. Now, think of the toughest, meanest crit you've seen here. Now, check out what you might have got elsewhere:

That, from a moderator.

My purpose for bringing this is to show the value of AW and also, of less than happy/fluffy crits. I doubt seriously that anyone here will ever say things aimed squarely at discouraging your continuing attempts, good and bad, at poetry. Like all art forms, it needs to be nurtured. Poets are made through the process of applying their skills to their art, then stripping away the pieces that don't work, then reapplying. There is a learning curve involved.

We should never discourage, nor feel discouraged, to write poetry because we don't meet the standards of the self-appointed Poetry Elite. Each time we allow ourselves to be hurt into silence, the whole of poetry is diminished slightly. I've been rightly called to the mat in the past for too-harsh crits. I hope I've never discouraged anyone from either posting at AW or, worse, ever trying poetry again.

So, to get to the point (I hear you cheering, LC) please try to remember these things:

1) Crit honestly, but always, always, always, address the poem, not the poet.
2) Use tact. "This sucks" will do infinitely more damage than "this piece has many issues".
3) If you post a poem for critique, make sure you're okay with hearing that your baby is ugly. Don't be offended if somebody doesn't like the poem because its quite okay for that person to feel that way. Find value in everything offered and always thank the critters for their time.

Sorry for chewing up space with this, but I thought at least some of you should find it interesting.

Mark

That's awesome, lol.

Please, PM this site's link. I'd love to see how I'd do over there.