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Dancre

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Ok, gang, I need help. I'm writing a YA fantasy about a young girl, Imogene, who finds a medallion and it transports her away to another land. She hooks up with a prince and his friends who are running away from a witch who stole his throne. Now her 'henchman' is a demon, who looks like an angel. The bible says the devil comes as an angel of light. But he's really the devil and he's manipulating the witch to get the kingdom for himself. The prince and his friends join a priest who tells Imogene that the Ancients, (God) brought her there to help the prince regain his kingdom and it has to do with the medallion she found. (sorry, no spoilers.) the witch captures Imogene to get the medallion, but the prince took it for safekeeping. So the witch-queen gives Imogene to the demon/devil guy as a 'gift'. He beats her up and molests her but doesn't rape her. He says he wants to kill the prince first, then he'll be back for her. Ok, here's the problem. My beta reader is saying the demon/devil is too flat and needs to be well-rounded. He says he's too mean, which makes him flat. So how do you well-round the devil? He's full of lies, and cruelity, there's no good in him. I don't know how to give him a well-rounded personality. I can post the part that's in question, but it has some adult context. any ideas??

kim
 

Sean D. Schaffer

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Maybe you should get a second opinion? You only have one beta reader's opinion, it sounds like, to go on, and if I were in your shoes I would not change the piece to please only one person ... unless that one person is you, the writer.

I hope this helps, and best wishes to you on the piece.

:)
 

Calla Lily

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Post it in SYW. Or send the part in question to me--I'll be happy to take a look at it. PM me and I'll give you my email.

Can you make Imogene secretly attracted to the henchman/demon? If the first time she sees him is when the witch captures her, maybe he could pretend to be working for the witch b/c she threatened his family? Willingly bound himself to her to save his mother from death by cancer? magic? childbed fever? He could play on her sympathies, she could think he's the hottest thing since Gerard Butler, he could sneak a kiss, and then, wham!

Just a thought, since I haven't seen any of it.
 

Roger J Carlson

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One way to make an evil character well-rounded and still leave him evil is to show how the character himself doesn't see what he's doing as evil. Generally, evil people don't think of themselves as evil. They usually have well thought out justifications for the evil they do.

Do you ever let your reader know what the devil is thinking or feeling?
 

Plot Device

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I'm personally really big on taking a Jungian filter to all story writing ad reading--including to the Bible itself. That means we need to be clear about who is in control, and who is top dog, and who bows down to whom.

From what I'm reading in your description, the witch is the chief bad guy, and anyone called a "henchman" would be her servant or her toady. So, is this a case of the Devil only temporarily PRETENDING he is weaker than the witch, and so he's conveniently hiding himself in the guise of a mere lowly henchman to her, when his true plan is to reveal himself as the all-powerful Satan at a later date of his choosing?

I think the correct dynamic between the witch and her "henchman" needs to be clarified here. Who is in control? By grapsing that we can "enjoy" the villain more.

One of the things we all love about a villain is the enjoyment we get from HATING that villain. And our ability to hate--and our enjoyment of that hate--is directly linked to our understanding of how much power the villain has (here's where the Jungian filter comes in handy). Any villain's power, and the sordid details concerning his abuse of that power, needs to be made clear to us so we can hate him for it and enjoy watching when the time finally comes for his power to be taken from him.

So .... can you clarify why he chose to hide himself as a henchman?

Are you planning to turn the tables so that we at first hate the witch and that we mistakenly believe SHE is the top dog, but then we feel sorry for her later when the true master of evil is revealed? Will the witch get redeemed later? At what point do we learn that HE is the one holding all the cards, and so the witch has been deluded and is his unknowing puppet? At what point do we figure out that he is Satan (or is that left vague and we just kinda have to attribute that to him on our own)?

Villains are never flat if we understand the power that they hold. So I need to understand this villain's power, how he wields it, what his MO is, what his weaknesses are, etc.

If his MO is that he has come to "kill, steal and destroy" and if his standard tools include lies and deception (including deceiving the witch) then help us focus on his utter depravity.





And here's a possibility: foil the witch's "style" of evil against the Devil's. To explain .... Perhaps the witch is a bit on the freaky/maniacal side (in other words, maybe she's one of those out-of-control types always in a frenzy) and the Devil is icy calm, and thus a total foil to her. So, when the tables ARE turned on her, it's all the scarier that this icy calm henchman of hers takes over. If you foil her personality against his via that sort of contrast of crazy vs. calm, that can help delineate his personality for us via the comparison.



Other stories with two bad guys have done this sort of contrast to great effect. The original "Die Hard" movie had the icy calm Franz who was the intelectually calm and cold mastermind of the robbery, and he was foiled against the psycho blond German guy whose brother was killed by Bruce Willis, and so he swore to get psycho vengeance upon Willis.


I don't know if you've gone for this sort of a dual bad guy scenario with one being a maniacal psycho and one being icy calm, but if you have, foiling them one against the other can be used to great effect in bringing out their personalities.
 

Dancre

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One way to make an evil character well-rounded and still leave him evil is to show how the character himself doesn't see what he's doing as evil. Generally, evil people don't think of themselves as evil. They usually have well thought out justifications for the evil they do.

Do you ever let your reader know what the devil is thinking or feeling?


OOOO!! Roger, I'm putting you in my back pocket!! This is WONDERFUL!! Actually, I don't tell the reader Argus is the devil until they get towards the end of the story. BUT I love the idea that the devil thinks he's doing good. AND if you think about it, the Devil does thing he's doing 'good', by wanting to destroy God's creation. He thought he was doing 'good' by deceiving Eve. I like it!! Thanks!!! And he does think he's doing good b/c he's in 'love' with the Mc, wants to dominate and all. I have it posted on SYW, but I rewrote it, thanks to Brer, who always gives me great advice. I'll post it again, as some folks want to reread it with Brer's suggestions. I just love it when I'm surrounded by such wonderful talent. (Now don't let that go to your head, roger!! LOL!! )

kim
 

Dancre

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I'm personally really big on taking a Jungian filter to all story writing ad reading--including to the Bible itself. That means we need to be clear about who is in control, and who is top dog, and who bows down to whom.

From what I'm reading in your description, the witch is the chief bad guy, and anyone called a "henchman" would be her servant or her toady. So, is this a case of the Devil only temporarily PRETENDING he is weaker than the witch, and so he's conveniently hiding himself in the guise of a mere lowly henchman to her, when his true plan is to reveal himself as the all-powerful Satan at a later date of his choosing?

The Devil (ARgus) acts like her henchman/lover, but he's really working behind her back to take over the land, like a chess game. It's really, well, scary b/c he just kinda took over his own character. Weird.

I think the correct dynamic between the witch and her "henchman" needs to be clarified here. Who is in control? By grapsing that we can "enjoy" the villain more.

One of the things we all love about a villain is the enjoyment we get from HATING that villain. And our ability to hate--and our enjoyment of that hate--is directly linked to our understanding of how much power the villain has (here's where the Jungian filter comes in handy). Any villain's power, and the sordid details concerning his abuse of that power, needs to be made clear to us so we can hate him for it and enjoy watching when the time finally comes for his power to be taken from him.

Cool!!!

So .... can you clarify why he chose to hide himself as a henchman?

mmm . . . I'll get back to you on that one. Good question!!!!!

Are you planning to turn the tables so that we at first hate the witch and that we mistakenly believe SHE is the top dog, but then we feel sorry for her later when the true master of evil is revealed?

Yes.

Will the witch get redeemed later?

Yes.

At what point do we learn that HE is the one holding all the cards, and so the witch has been deluded and is his unknowing puppet? At what point do we figure out that he is Satan (or is that left vague and we just kinda have to attribute that to him on our own)?
Towards the end of the story.

Villains are never flat if we understand the power that they hold. So I need to understand this villain's power, how he wields it, what his MO is, what his weaknesses are, etc.

mmmm . . . . good. weaknesses, powers, how he wields it, mo. mmm . . . devil has lot's of weaknesses. man, you've given me a lot to think about.

If his MO is that he has come to "kill, steal and destroy" and if his standard tools include lies and deception (including deceiving the witch) then help us focus on his utter depravity.
ooo . . . . I like. Ok, juices are running. Must go write now. Can not turn away from PC. Going down now.




And here's a possibility: foil the witch's "style" of evil against the Devil's. To explain .... Perhaps the witch is a bit on the freaky/maniacal side (in other words, maybe she's one of those out-of-control types always in a frenzy) and the Devil is icy calm, and thus a total foil to her. So, when the tables ARE turned on her, it's all the scarier that this icy calm henchman of hers takes over. If you foil her personality against his via that sort of contrast of crazy vs. calm, that can help delineate his personality for us via the comparison.

Um, when did you slip into my PC and read my story? LOL!! This is what happens.

Other stories with two bad guys have done this sort of contrast to great effect. The original "Die Hard" movie had the icy calm Franz who was the intelectually calm and cold mastermind of the robbery, and he was foiled against the psycho blond German guy whose brother was killed by Bruce Willis, and so he swore to get psycho vengeance upon Willis.


I don't know if you've gone for this sort of a dual bad guy scenario with one being a maniacal psycho and one being icy calm, but if you have, foiling them one against the other can be used to great effect in bringing out their personalities.

Thank you all so very much!! I have so much to think about!!! Wheee!!!!

kim
 

Dancre

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Post it in SYW. Or send the part in question to me--I'll be happy to take a look at it. PM me and I'll give you my email.

Can you make Imogene secretly attracted to the henchman/demon? If the first time she sees him is when the witch captures her, maybe he could pretend to be working for the witch b/c she threatened his family? Willingly bound himself to her to save his mother from death by cancer? magic? childbed fever? He could play on her sympathies, she could think he's the hottest thing since Gerard Butler, he could sneak a kiss, and then, wham!

Just a thought, since I haven't seen any of it.

It's a good thought, that's for sure. Callalily, you have a great and romantic imagination. LOL!! ;) Although, I may steal this for another story.
 

Calla Lily

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Ok, I took everyone's advice and rewrote the devil's part. I posted it on this thread here:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1335748&posted=1#post1335748 it's the last post on the thread. Please tell me, does it sound like the devil? What do you all think?

thanks!!

kim

I'll look at it this morning and post the crit over there.

ETA: Posted. I think he's okay for a YA devil--not so evil it gives the kids the willies or attracts them more than the good guys do.
 
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Robin Bayne

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One way to make an evil character well-rounded and still leave him evil is to show how the character himself doesn't see what he's doing as evil. Generally, evil people don't think of themselves as evil. They usually have well thought out justifications for the evil they do.

Do you ever let your reader know what the devil is thinking or feeling?


That is excellent advice!
 
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