Measures of writing success

Codger · May 11, 2007

I'm just curious as to what you folks think about writing success. I imagine that each of us have our own indicators and metrics.

So what's your measure of a writer's success?

1. Seeing one's name in print?
2. Placement on a bestseller list?
3. Number of books sold?
4. Royalty $$$ ?
5. Awards? (which ones?)

Number 3 would likely spin my personal propeller most, followed closely by 4.

blacbird · May 11, 2007

Seeing something, anything, reach respectable publication.

S'ain't happenin', tho.

caw

JoNightshade · May 11, 2007

I think all five of the items you listed are measures of success. I would also add:
6) Completing a novel or other significant work (whether or not it's published)
7) Finding an agent or publisher

I think all of these elements combine to give you feelings of success... but I think the important part is to be moving along the spectrum somewhere. Whether you're hard at work on your first novel or trying to up your sales, I think you should feel proud of your success as long as you are working towards your goals. It doesn't always happen immediately, and sometimes not even during your lifetime! (I think of many Russian writers who never saw their manuscripts in print.)

But I think the most important thing is to be proud of what you've written.

blacbird · May 11, 2007

JoNightshade said:
But I think the most important thing is to be proud of what you've written.

Wears thin after a while if nobody else is appreciative.

caw

Will Lavender · May 11, 2007

3. and 5. are important to me.

I've made quite a bit of money for my novel, but that's "success" as it's determined by a publishing company. I want to see what readers and critics say. If they don't treat the work favorably, then the first novelist will never get another legitimate shot at 4. (And I'm talking about advance-against-royalties in my case.)

NowCutThatOut! · May 11, 2007

In the very early stages that I'm at, 'Finding An Agent' will definitely be the first measure of success, since it will mean at least someone will have faith in what I've written.

After that, getting it published by a reputable publisher and (hopefully) receiving a good review would give me a bit of a self-esteem boost. All hypothetical, given I'm only 10,000 words into the WIP and all.

Mr. E · May 11, 2007

If I'm holding a book in my hands (whether hardback or paperback - I'm not picky) with my name on it - a real book, with cover art, a blurb, and pages you can flip through and inhale their scent...

That's success. For me, anyway.

JoNightshade · May 11, 2007

blacbird said:
Wears thin after a while if nobody else is appreciative.

caw

I respectfully beg to differ. I wrote a novel when I was 16 that is probably never going to be published. I don't even let anyone outside of my immediate family read it. But about once a year I pull it out, dust it off, and read the whole thing straight through. And I still love it. I love my characters and I love to look back through my own eyes and see how innocently I looked at the world back then.

And to be honest, I would continue to write even if nobody else in the world cared. I write for my own pleasure, first and foremost. If I don't do that, it's not a calling or a passion... it's just a job. Sure, it's fun when other people like your stuff, and it would be even better to be able to do it for a living, but I think ultimately your motivation has to come from within.

Scrawler · May 11, 2007

Being able to make a living and support myself at it.
I may not have a novel published, (yet) but I've got boxes full of brochures, press releases, articles, short stories, ad copy, catalogs, web articles, menus, business plans, programs etc. etc. that represent 20 years of successful writing.

joyce · May 11, 2007

The greatest feeling of success I presently feel is knowing after twenty odd years of trying.....I finally finished a manuscript. I'm now on the ole agent search, have a couple of fulls out but have heard nothing. It would be wonderful to see my name in print. But I feel great knowing I finally completed the thing, polished it up, and it's now being submitted to various agencys. That was dream number one....and it's great knowing I've at least obtained that.

veinglory · May 11, 2007

1) -- caveat--with a respectable press, 3) and 5)aiming for 3c a word within 2 years.

Chumplet · May 11, 2007

I suppose it's a sliding rule. You feel a tingle of success when you finish writing, then it increases when you have your work accepted by an agent and/or publisher, then when you hold it in your hot little hands, then when you realize other people actually like it and are buying it. That fat cheque can't hurt, either.

blacbird · May 11, 2007

JoNightshade said:
I would continue to write even if nobody else in the world cared. I write for my own pleasure, first and foremost.

Isn't that what diaries and journals are for? If it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about your work, why go through all the craft'n'stuff necessary to fashion a piece of writing for an external audience? What's the point?

I'm not saying you don't write to please yourself, too. That would be idiocy. But it doesn't feel to me like a measure of success (or at least like a very significant one) just to string X number of words together, if nobody else is ever going to read any of them. Might be therapy, maybe. But I've done plenty of such therapy, and none of it feels like a "measure of success."

caw

JoNightshade · May 11, 2007

blacbird said:
Isn't that what diaries and journals are for? If it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about your work, why go through all the craft'n'stuff necessary to fashion a piece of writing for an external audience? What's the point?

caw

Because that is also rewarding. I didn't say it wasn't. It's just not the MOST important thing.

Incidentally, you speak of journals and diaries as if they don't also qualify as legitimate "writing." They are simply biographical-- no less worthy than fiction. Think of Samuel Pepys or James Boswell or Anne Frank! As it happens, I just don't enjoy writing about myself. I enjoy writing about imaginary people. I do it simply because I love doing it. And if I can create something that others will also love (and pay money for!) then I've gotten even more satisfaction and enjoyment out of the effort. That's why I go the extra mile.

And as far as learning the craft-- I also get satisfaction out of doing something well. I like to do justice to my characters. I feel they deserve it.

blacbird · May 11, 2007

JoNightshade said:
Because that is also rewarding. I didn't say it wasn't. It's just not the MOST important thing.

Incidentally, you speak of journals and diaries as if they don't also qualify as legitimate "writing." They are simply biographical-- no less worthy than fiction. Think of Samuel Pepys or James Boswell or Anne Frank! As it happens, I just don't enjoy writing about myself. I enjoy writing about imaginary people. I do it simply because I love doing it. And if I can create something that others will also love (and pay money for!) then I've gotten even more satisfaction and enjoyment out of the effort. That's why I go the extra mile.

And as far as learning the craft-- I also get satisfaction out of doing something well. I like to do justice to my characters. I feel they deserve it.

Good answer. I don't get any satisfaction out of journaling, either, for the same reason. And I do do the craft stuff, out of desperation more than any other reason, I suspect. Some nights, with the aid of a wee dram of Talisker, I can imagine for a few minutes an external audience that appreciates the effort.

Unfortunately, reality always lurks, restless and hungry, in the shadows in the corners of the room.

caw

swvaughn · May 11, 2007

I wrote a bunch of books and I'm going to write some more.

Success!

Penguin Queen · May 11, 2007

Chumplet said:
I suppose it's a sliding rule. You feel a tingle of success when you finish writing, then it increases when you have your work accepted by an agent and/or publisher, then when you hold it in your hot little hands, then when you realize other people actually like it and are buying it. That fat cheque can't hurt, either.

I like this.

I'm two weeks and 12.5 hours away from holding The Book in my hot litte etc. Not that I'm counting, or anything.
'Twill be my first. I still cant believe it.
It's ascending steps - you build each planned success on the basis of the previous. And hope like hell that you dont fall too soon.

JoNightshade · May 11, 2007

blacbird said:
Good answer. I don't get any satisfaction out of journaling, either, for the same reason. And I do do the craft stuff, out of desperation more than any other reason, I suspect. Some nights, with the aid of a wee dram of Talisker, I can imagine for a few minutes an external audience that appreciates the effort.

Unfortunately, reality always lurks, restless and hungry, in the shadows in the corners of the room.

caw

So apparently I'm just capable of being my own number one fan. Yay me!

That said, I do have to admit that I am EXTREMELY paranoid about sharing stuff with other people. Whenever I give an unpublished story to someone else to read, I can't be in the same room and most of the time I end up shutting myself in the bathroom trying not to be sick. So if I wasn't doing it for myself, I'd really be screwed.

Jamesaritchie · May 11, 2007

Success

For me, it's about doing something I love, AND doing it well enough to be paid for it. I don't think doing anything poorly can be considered success, and it always amazes me that so many seem frightened by the word "failure."

We all fail, else we aren't trying enough things, and trying to label failure as success just makes it a hundred times harder to succeed at the next thing we try.

I know some say the only failure is not trying, but that's just dumb. Try jumping the Grand Canyon, then come tell me how successful you were because you tried.

But as they say, Success is easy. Just set goals so low you can't fail.

rugcat · May 11, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
For me, it's about doing something I love, AND doing it well enough to be paid for it.

Very well put. (Because it's exactly the way I see it.)

But let's not forget CES. (Creeping expectations syndrome) It goes something like this:

First, it's if I can actually finish an entire novel I'll consider it an accomplishment. Then, if I could just write something I consider good, I'd be satisfied. If I could just get a reputable agent, any agent, I'd be ecstatic. If I'd only landed one of the top agents, I'd be in heaven. If my agent could only sell my book, life would be complete. If I could only have got some reviews, I'd be a lot happier--if only I'd sold it to a major publisher, that would have happened, and I'd consider myself a real success. If only the reviews had been better. If only I'd sold more copies, like that complete hack on the bestseller list. If only I'd gotten a better deal, like that woman I read about.

If only I had a good idea for another book.

CheshireCat · May 11, 2007

Chumplet said:
I suppose it's a sliding rule. You feel a tingle of success when you finish writing, then it increases when you have your work accepted by an agent and/or publisher, then when you hold it in your hot little hands, then when you realize other people actually like it and are buying it. That fat cheque can't hurt, either.

Yes, the goalposts keep moving, believe me.

chartreuse · May 11, 2007

Scrawler said:
Being able to make a living and support myself at it.

I kind of agree with this - even though it shouldn't be about that, as long as I have to work a day job it's never going to feel like I've "made it."

However, there is another type of success that I crave, and that's writing a book that gets people thinking, and even generates some controversy. I think I'd rather honestly have that than a generic bestseller that everybody reads but then forgets about five minutes after they read it.

julief · May 11, 2007

Codger said:
I'm just curious as to what you folks think about writing success. I imagine that each of us have our own indicators and metrics.

So what's your measure of a writer's success?

1. Seeing one's name in print?
2. Placement on a bestseller list?
3. Number of books sold?
4. Royalty $$$ ?
5. Awards? (which ones?)

Number 3 would likely spin my personal propeller most, followed closely by 4.

All of the above, Codger.

My order would be:

Finish novel
Attain Agent
Become Published
Get very good reviews
Sell many many many copies and reach best seller status
Make much moolah
Receive awards for positively reviewed, best seller book
Begin next book
Repeat

Hey, I'd be happy if I only get half of that.

Novelhistorian · May 11, 2007

I'm with you, Nightshade. Does a writer write only for the result? Or is it the process? If you don't love the process and await only the rave reviews and fat check, what do you have to show for yourself at the end of each day? I agree with other posters who say that if you have no validation from the outside world, enthusiasm for the work is hard to sustain. But I'd argue that the pride in and love for the work are a necessary condition of success. They may not be sufficient--anyone who's slaved away for years, trying unsuccessfully to publish, knows how that frustration can eat at you. But absent that love for the work, I don't know what the money would do, whether that alone would be enough.

blacbird · May 11, 2007

Novelhistorian said:
I'm with you, Nightshade. Does a writer write only for the result? Or is it the process? If you don't love the process and await only the rave reviews and fat check, what do you have to show for yourself at the end of each day? I agree with other posters who say that if you have no validation from the outside world, enthusiasm for the work is hard to sustain. But I'd argue that the pride in and love for the work are a necessary condition of success. They may not be sufficient--anyone who's slaved away for years, trying unsuccessfully to publish, knows how that frustration can eat at you. But absent that love for the work, I don't know what the money would do, whether that alone would be enough.

No one would do this only for the material result. That way lies madness. But absent even the most minute material result, definable at the minimum level by an acceptance of something for respectable publication, even if not being paid money for it, it becomes a depressing pursuit. Made more so by the attitude expressed often in these forums by the successful and well-paid that to publish anything without monetary compensation is somehow immoral, unethical and downright evil.

caw

Measures of writing success

Codger

blacbird

JoNightshade

has finally arrived

blacbird

Will Lavender

Everything is what it seems.

NowCutThatOut!

Mr. E

JoNightshade

has finally arrived

Scrawler

Bored fanatic

joyce

I'm really shy...

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Chumplet

This hat is getting too hot

blacbird

JoNightshade

has finally arrived

blacbird

swvaughn

adrift

Penguin Queen

Break the rules.

JoNightshade

has finally arrived

Jamesaritchie

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

CheshireCat

Mostly purring. Mostly.

chartreuse

julief

Hardly here

Novelhistorian

blacbird