Defining a Fairytale?

Dollywagon · May 5, 2007

How would you define a contemporary fairytale?

What components actually make up a fairytale as opposed to any other kind of children's story?

RMS · May 5, 2007

Sorry I can't help but I'd be interested in the answer to this also.

Soccer Mom · May 5, 2007

A fairytale is a traditional story. A contemporary one would be setting one of those traditional stories that everyone knows in a modern setting: For example, Hoodwinked. I would consider that movie a contemporary fairytale.

LBW66 · May 5, 2007

I'm thinking a story needs time to become a fairy tale. You can tell a story of magical and imaginary beings with a contemporary moral, but perhaps would only be classified as fantasy or fiction.

The Grift · May 5, 2007

I think the more important question to ask is what do you hope to evoke in the audience when you call your work a fairy tale? Because, strictly speaking, LBW is probably right and something becomes a fairy tale through time.

For instance, if someone says "a modern fairy tale" it's because a work provokes certain emotions and reactions that a fairy tale might. So what is it you're hoping to do with your audience?

Storyteller5 · May 5, 2007

In addition to the emotions and the time factor, I think a modern fairy tale also borrows elements which are tied to traditionally fairy tales in most people's minds.

TrickyFiction · May 5, 2007

I once spoke to a very knowledgeable professor who told me that fairytales were specific kind of folklore, that they come from a specific region and have specific elements. With that in mind, I don't think you can necessarily write a fairytale. I think you can rewrite one, or you can write a fairtale-like story. But, I think true fairytales have to have evolved naturally in a specific story-telling culture.

Dollywagon · May 5, 2007

I agree with everything everyone has brought up ... but I'm still in a knot.

Perhaps it would help if I explain why I need to know. A publisher I sub to, amongst other things, publishes 'myth, legend and fairytales,' and accepts ms accordingly. Now I've looked at their list, and although some of them are re-worked original fairy tales, others look to be completely new concepts - but, I think, based on a 'moral' foundation.

I have one story that I think would be a good fit for them, but need to confirm that it comes under the 'umbrella' of fairytale before sending it in. If I can actually define the components of what actually makes a fairytale, then I can make comparisions against my own story and decide if it would work for them.
I don't really want to send it in and 'hope' that I've got it right, because it makes me look as if I'm thrashing around in the dark (which I am

)

Trouble is, I now agree with everything everybody has said to one degree or another and I think I am closer away from a 'fit' than I was in the first place

Dollywagon · May 5, 2007

I just found this link
http://www.ni4kids.com/past_editions/whatisafairytale.htm

It may help us all in defining what a fairytale is and if we are actually writing one.

Just off to work it all out ...

Jo · May 5, 2007

That's a great link, Dollywagon. Thanks!

To me, a fairytale is where childhood dreams and wishes can come true. A magical adventure where desires are played out, evil is dealt with (not always to a positive end) and the consequences leave you pondering.

I hope so, anyway, as this is what I've based my stories on.

RainbowDragon · May 6, 2007

Fairy tales were originally an oral tradition, and so, as Robert Bly points out in Iron John (well worth reading cover to cover, by the way), they passed through generations of storyteller's psyches, each changing a detail here, emphasizing a new aspect there, and so became reservoirs of collective knowledge, experience, etc., stored in symbolic form. Once they were written down, the storytelling tradition eventually diminished, as people tend to read books to their children verbatim. It's a finished work, no one messes with it except perhaps the writer.

You can write fairy-talesque works and use conventions and archetypes and all that fun stuff (I do--it's a great way to learn about and hopefully pass on/down your own personal worldview and interpretation of symbols) but I believe I remember Bly maintains in the book (and I agree) that you can't write a genuine fairy tale as in one that passed through many psyches and generations...(unless perhaps you get into storytelling, make up a tale and give it 75-100 years before someone (probably not you) writes it down).

RainbowDragon · May 6, 2007

Dollywagon said:
I don't really want to send it in and 'hope' that I've got it right, because it makes me look as if I'm thrashing around in the dark (which I am )

When I'm unsure in this way I just submit and forget about it. Worst thing that can happen is a rejection, which is what I also expect even when it seems like a good fit to me! That way any acceptances are a pleasant surprise.

TnTexas · May 6, 2007

Dollywagon said:
I agree with everything everyone has brought up ... but I'm still in a knot.

Perhaps it would help if I explain why I need to know. A publisher I sub to, amongst other things, publishes 'myth, legend and fairytales,' and accepts ms accordingly. Now I've looked at their list, and although some of them are re-worked original fairy tales, others look to be completely new concepts - but, I think, based on a 'moral' foundation.

I have one story that I think would be a good fit for them, but need to confirm that it comes under the 'umbrella' of fairytale before sending it in. If I can actually define the components of what actually makes a fairytale, then I can make comparisions against my own story and decide if it would work for them.
I don't really want to send it in and 'hope' that I've got it right, because it makes me look as if I'm thrashing around in the dark (which I am )

Trouble is, I now agree with everything everybody has said to one degree or another and I think I am closer away from a 'fit' than I was in the first place

I think your best bet would be to go to the library and check out as many of the books on their list as you can find. That way you can read some of what they've already published and see for yourself what they consider to be a myth, legend or fairytale. Good luck!

TnTexas · May 6, 2007

RainbowDragon said:
You can write fairy-talesque works and use conventions and archetypes and all that fun stuff (I do--it's a great way to learn about and hopefully pass on/down your own personal worldview and interpretation of symbols) but I believe I remember Bly maintains in the book (and I agree) that you can't write a genuine fairy tale as in one that passed through many psyches and generations...(unless perhaps you get into storytelling, make up a tale and give it 75-100 years before someone (probably not you) writes it down).

I agree with this assessment. I feel the same way about "classics". There's no way you can have an instant classic.

Soccer Mom · May 6, 2007

I think that when most people are talking "modern fairytale" they really mean fable. But it really is sort of an oxymoron just like "instant classic".

Jo · May 6, 2007

Folklore (traditional knowledge) is unwritten. Modern day examples would be Santa/Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny. In Australia, we also have Drop Bears and the Bunyip.

Fables often have a moral.

Fairytales are probably a mix of these, which makes defining them awkward. From WordWeb:
1. A story about fairies; told to amuse children.
2. An interesting but highly implausible story; often told as an excuse.

Disney have made movies of many fairytales; some old and some more recent. E.g. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was written in 1950, but I guess it's debatable whether it's a fairytale or (part of an epic) fantasy. What about The Lion King (1994), which was not based on an already existing story?

Now it's got me thinking. Would Labyrinth (1986) be classified as a fairytale? Ooh, ooh, and there's Shrek (2001), which was a picture book written by William Steig in 1990.

Dollywagon · May 6, 2007

Well, I think everybody has had some sensible input on this one!

I think when it comes to comparing the definition of my own story then I can use the component of 'a lesson learned,' sort of in the Pinocchio stance. The setting in itself isn't a problem - woodland, it could be any era - but there are references made to the modern world.

Yep, I think in this instance I could define it as a contemporary fairy tale. It will probably come bouncing back in the SASE anyway, but at least I know I've given it my best shot.

Thanks for all your efforts!

Soccer Mom · May 7, 2007

Yes, my understanding is that a fable has a morale. A fairytale must include some sort of magical or fantastic element (hence, fairytale).

RainbowDragon · May 7, 2007

Jo~ said:
Disney have made movies of many fairytales; some old and some more recent. E.g. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was written in 1950, but I guess it's debatable whether it's a fairytale or (part of an epic) fantasy. What about The Lion King (1994), which was not based on an already existing story?

Now it's got me thinking. Would Labyrinth (1986) be classified as a fairytale? Ooh, ooh, and there's Shrek (2001), which was a picture book written by William Steig in 1990.

While some may disagree, I would say none of these are fairytales. They were stories made up by one (or a handful) of writers, not passed down from generation to generation (excepting the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, which is older, but was always in print, never a story meant to be told out loud except perhaps for a book on tape

And films like Shrek, where contemporary references abound don't even come close to a fairy tale mood. Though they borrow from the traditional tales in "letter", in spirit they fall flat; fairy tales are serious, and humor in fairy tales is always telling, never frivolous. . .

I'm not saying they don't have good lessons or that they're not good in an of themselves, mind you, I'm just saying they're not genuine fairy tales.

Jo · May 7, 2007

Dollywagon said:
How would you define a contemporary fairytale?

What components actually make up a fairytale as opposed to any other kind of children's story?

I found this article from Wikipedia interesting, especially the Contemporary tales section halfway down the page.

And Shrek, notably:

Shrek is an animated feature based upon William Steig's 1990 fairy tale picture book of the same name.

To me, Shrek is a classic fairytale character (ogre), who lives in a fairytale world (with other classic fairytale characters). Although the story has contemporary twists and humour, it revolves around the classic "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" message.

Many tales travel through time, although they are not timeless (e.g. the damsel in distress doesn't cut it nowadays). Readers (and viewers) of today require more modern tales; something they can relate to. (Weren't all fairytales contemporary in their day?)

Above all, I believe fairytales (characters, setting, story) should be enchanting.

Dollywagon · May 7, 2007

Thanks for the link, Jo.

I haven't had time to read it all and felt my toes curl when I saw that the definition of fairy tales has caused considerable dispute!

Just like me to start a thread like that ...

I do see that for a fairy tale to be 'original' then it would have to be a verbal message of the past that eventually made it into the written word. Also that a fairy tale should carry a learning lesson in there somewhere. They are also allowed to be fabulous in areas that are usually taboo, like talking animals, inanimate objects transforming etc.

Thing is, how many (life) lessons can be learned? When you take a contemporary fairy tale like Shrek, doesn't that somehow have it's foundations in stories such as Beauty and The Beast. Same message, different setting, different characters.

Is a contemporary fairytale simply a message with different scenes and characters wrapped around it?

Dollywagon · May 7, 2007

Just had another thought as well.

Since the original fairy tales developed as a way of teaching children about the darker side of life, isn't it possibly one of the only mediums whereby we can teach children today.

Fairytales allow us to use evil adults, bad parents, crafty monsters, people/objects transforming from one thing to another. Crikey, you can even have sad endings!

So if you take all the elements of a fairy tale, but structure it so it can be understood to a modern child, can't it serve as a warning message, if not in whole but at least in part?

Jo · May 7, 2007

Dollywagon said:
Just had another thought as well.

Since the original fairy tales developed as a way of teaching children about the darker side of life, isn't it possibly one of the only mediums whereby we can teach children today.

Fairytales allow us to use evil adults, bad parents, crafty monsters, people/objects transforming from one thing to another. Crikey, you can even have sad endings!

So if you take all the elements of a fairy tale, but structure it so it can be understood to a modern child, can't it serve as a warning message, if not in whole but at least in part?

That sounds like what I write, although I include stuff for the adults, too. (I don't think fairytales have to be just for the kids.)

Dollywagon said:
Thing is, how many (life) lessons can be learned? <snip> Is a contemporary fairytale simply a message with different scenes and characters wrapped around it?

There are many themes/morals/messages you could base your story on. None of them would be truly original. It's the execution of the story that is. New playmates for the readers to enjoy... Technology to explore... A myriad of global (or universal) settings...

Dollywagon · May 7, 2007

I think I'm really getting into this fairy tale thing.

The components, as well as allowing you to teach a life message, also allow you to do all the things that editors usually say you shouldn't do - it can be dark, you can have obviously devious, wicked adults, animals can (and practically should) speak, children can be punished, inanimate objects can speak and transform, on and on the list goes.

I think the only contemporary author to get away with the above, in settings that I don't think are considered to come into the realms of fairy tales, is possibly Roald Dahl? I read Matilda last week and couldn't believe how deep it was. Not only for an adult reading between the lines, but also for the children following the basic story.

I think I could play nicely with the components of a fairy tale ...

louiscypher · May 8, 2007

Fairytales are what Mothers use when the old faithful gripe water runs out ... you know, the husband!

J

Defining a Fairytale?

Dollywagon

RMS

Soccer Mom

Crypto-fascist

LBW66

The Grift

Tom Swiftly's Favorite Adverb

Storyteller5

Say something...

TrickyFiction

Who?

Dollywagon

Dollywagon

Jo

Travelling the re-write road

RainbowDragon

Perpetuous Revisasaurus

RainbowDragon

Perpetuous Revisasaurus

TnTexas

TnTexas

Soccer Mom

Crypto-fascist

Jo

Travelling the re-write road

Dollywagon

Soccer Mom

Crypto-fascist

RainbowDragon

Perpetuous Revisasaurus

Jo

Travelling the re-write road

Dollywagon

Dollywagon

Jo

Travelling the re-write road

Dollywagon

louiscypher