New York City vs. Gotham

Button · May 3, 2007

I wondering about the wisdom of using a real city versus a made up city. My current story needs a large city. I'm highly tempted to use New York, as it is perfect and familiar to most American kids, and there are places where my characters can play havoc on.

However, I realize that blowing up parts of New York would seem out of taste, even if this is a fantasy, considering past events. I understand a lot of writers avoid using the city for blowing up buildings or areas of interest.

There are two places I could take this story. One is New York, which is perfect, because it has so many people, plenty of places to use, and most people can identify with particular places, making it easier on me, because my 'world' is already in place. I don't have to explain too much.

However, on the other hand, there will be lots of destruction. It will be fantasy (think Ghostbusters type stuff, sort of) but it might be considered in bad taste. Also, having never been to New York, I'd have to be more careful about getting my places right and making it real. I could also probably not add areas I might need later realistically.

On the other hand, I could use a "Gotham" type city that would be almost like New York, obviously parks, certain buildings and the streets, etc., would all be changed and have different names. I could make it up, create my own map and make it as complicated or less complicated as needed.

I thought that New York might be more of a tender spot, which would be cool for my story, but I don't want to make people mad that I'm destroying stuff.

Any thoughts on using NYC or a Gotham city? Or real or made up cities when it comes to blowing up stuff?

ccarver30 · May 3, 2007

Well, Button, I think you should go with Gotham. Not only is it a sore spot but I think that the description you would use for ANY place you use would be the same and more than likely create the same type of images in someone's (your readers') head.
For example: The traffic was incredibly heavy and many pedestrians skittered out of the way for fear of their lives.
No matter what name (NY or G), the same vision is in my head.
I dunno, that's just my two cents.

maestrowork · May 3, 2007

People blow up New York all the time in fiction. Stephen King set Cell in Boston, a real city. Don't sweat it. If your novel calls for real city setting, then use it. Comic books make up cities for some reasons -- but we all know they are New York or Los Angeles or Chicago.

Tirjasdyn · May 3, 2007

I thought it was in vogue to blow up New York.

Plot Device · May 3, 2007

If it's a fantasy, I'd go with a made-up city, especially if you've never been to New York. Unless there's a compelling reason to make it be New York.

As one warning: I was annoyed as all get-out at just that one scene in the recent remake of King Kong when the hero got on the elevator on the ground floor of the Empire State Building and took that one elevator car all the way to the 102nd floor. Anyone who has ever been to the Empire State Building knows that you need to get off somewhere around the 50th floor and take a second car the rest of the way up. Little details like that make New Yorkers mad. But if you have a made-up city you don't have to do any research.

Setting a fantasy in a real city can either lend to or detract from the fantasy. Mary Poppins takes place in London. Spider-Man takes place in New York. Babe takes place ... no one really knows. By having Babe in an unidentifiable nation (coulda been America, coulda been Australia, coulda been New Zealand, coulda been Canada) it made the story more accessible to all nations. And so a subtle and subconscious shade of universality for all audience-members was attained. But Mary Popins DEFINTELY needed to be London. And Spider-Man DEFINTIELY needed to be New York City, whereas Superman is metropolis, and Batman is Gotham City.

I say that if it isn't critical to any plot elements, go ahead and make it a fantasy city.

Jamesaritchie · May 3, 2007

Gotham

Fictional cities are fun to invent and write about. Much of King's fiction is set in Castle Rock, Maine. John D. MacDonald also gave Travis McGee a fictional home base city in Florida.

The Grift · May 3, 2007

Don't back off from something in your work because you're afraid of a reaction.

That being said, unless there is a reason to have it set in a real city (and there may be many), a made-up one will offer you more freedom to fit the environment to the story and not the other way around. Also, less of a chance of getting things wrong, like Plot Device was talking about.

maestrowork · May 3, 2007

Plot Device said:
By having Babe in an unidentifiable nation (coulda been America, coulda been Australia, coulda been New Zealand, coulda been Canada) it made the story more accessible to all nations. And so a subtle and subconscious shade of universality for all audience-members was attained.

Meanwhile Mary Poppins and Spider-Man are classics. Babe II was a mess.

Yes, Batman has Gotham and Superman has Metropolis -- but like I said, comic books tend to do that, and we all know it's New York anyway.

But back to the OP's question. It seems like he wants to set it in New York but fears that people will react negatively. I'd say go for it if the story calls for New York. It's a bad reason to change it to some made-up place because you're afraid to write it as originally intended.

Rich · May 3, 2007

I'm a New Yorker. The only thing that would offend me is bad writing.

Do it. If you have questions on New York, start a thread. If I see it I'll supply answers--I'm also something of a historian on the New York City Subway System.

Jamesaritchie · May 3, 2007

Reaction

Fear of a negative reaction is a bad reason for using a fictional city. There are, however, many good things about using a fictional setting, and an awful lot of novels have done just this with great success.

If the novel needs a real city, then use one. If it doesn't, then do whatever makes you happiest.

C.bronco · May 3, 2007

I'd suggest a city you have easy access to.

The Grift · May 3, 2007

Rich said:
--I'm also something of a historian on the New York City Subway System.

Good. What year did the last W train come through? I swear I've been waiting on this platform since college...

Sassenach · May 3, 2007

FWIW, the hit TV show "Heroes" has a major plot line about NYC being blown up.

Rich · May 3, 2007

I won't answer that Grif. I will tell you that I spent 33 years at the TA. Went from clerk in the mailroom to two directorships in the areas of Labor relations, project & production planning, and budgeting.

Give me a hard one.

Plot Device · May 3, 2007

Rich said:
I won't answer that Grif. I will tell you that I spent 33 years at the TA. Went from clerk in the mailroom to two directorships in the areas of Labor relations, project & production planning, and budgeting.

Give me a hard one.

Were you part of that BS strike back before Christmas of 2005?? (I coulda smacked every last one of those SOB's)

Rich · May 3, 2007

No, I was already retired, but I was in touch with the principals. I was there for the strikes during the Lindsey and Koch admiinistrations--now they were strikes!

The Grift · May 3, 2007

Actually, I have less of a problem with the Never-Rarely line than I do with the M60 bus outside of Manhattan. Whether or not that thing comes at all is a crap shoot.

That being said, living in a city with public transportation of the caliber of New York's is preferable to those cities without it.

Just so I dont feel guilty for "derailing" the thread, so to speak...

Unless I have a pretty good pre-existing knowledge of a city, I like to make them up. In my mind it's really tough to present a city as well as a native if all youve got is research.

Think about movies. Woddy Allen with NYC, Michael Mann with LA, Scorcese just recently with Boston...they were all able to present the cities as another character. In addition, the characters in those films were very obviously influenced by their city. Are those the same sorts of things you want to present? I would love to be able to so accurately and lovingly present a city, but until then I will probably focus on the characters and plot and allow te reader to place the story where they want.

Rich · May 3, 2007

I've never written a novel but recently I've been screwing around with a romantic comedy(?) with the NYC Subway System as a setting. At first I had planned on it as a memoir, but I was concerned that I'd get into deep shit.

It's true, though. I'm comfortable with the story because I'm familiar with New York.

Plot Device · May 3, 2007

Rich said:
No, I was already retired, but I was in touch with the principals. I was there for the strikes during the Lindsey and Koch admiinistrations--now they were strikes!

I wasn't in New York for those earlier strikes.

*(End of thread derailment )*

Plot Device · May 3, 2007

Rich said:
I've never written a novel but recently I've been screwing around with a romantic comedy(?) with the NYC Subway System as a setting. At first I had planned on it as a memoir, but I was concerned that I'd get into deep shit.

It's true, though. I'm comfortable with the story because I'm familiar with New York.

I'm not a novelist, I'm a scriptwriter, and one of the tricks that is used by movie directors to try and jazz-up a script is to have a boring scene take place in a moving car or on a moving train.

Movement = tension + excitement = increased audience interest

If much of your story invovles riding on the actual trains, that's a huge plus.

Rich · May 3, 2007

I would never have a character ride a subway train longer than is necessary.

Button · May 3, 2007

Hmmm... now I'm more tempted to use a Gotham city.

The subway, Empire State, Central Park and all those other places were part of my original plan though. But I like the idea of making it up, and that I won't have to do so much research on New York. I've never been there and I'd be lost. There's nothing like having visited a city yourself to really get a feel for it.

I would like any kid to identify with the city though, like how Gotham is made up but resembles a real city. Anyone who knows Gotham knows about Wayne Tower. I'd like to use elements like Central Park and the subway, etc. If it's made up, I'll make up the names.

Here's another question, I always assumed Gotham was in America, though now that I think about it, I can never recall if anyone ever actually said. Though I do remember Batman visiting China and other places. Do the made up cities usually elude their exact location?

I am definitely going to need help with subways, despite it being a made up city or not. I want the city to be made up, but that doesn't mean I want subways that do strange things. I want the story to be fantasy, but the location to be realistic.

The Grift · May 3, 2007

It doesnt really matter unless your planning on using DC's Gotham City...which i would say definitely DO NOT do.

Yes, Gotham City is in America. DC even had a map that showed where Gotham, Metropolis, etc all were.

eric11210 · May 3, 2007

I always use New York. Of course, I live in New York City, so I know the city and refer to neighborhoods around the city all the time.

And I do have a story I just wrote with the Brooklyn Bridge being blown up by terrorists. I don't think it's a problem. Then again, maybe I'm just not so bothered in general by it.

However, definitely do not use Gotham or Metropolis as you can get into copyright issues, but I don't think New York is a problem. . .

Eric

eric11210 · May 3, 2007

ButtonTheCat said:
Hmmm... now I'm more tempted to use a Gotham city.

The subway, Empire State, Central Park and all those other places were part of my original plan though. But I like the idea of making it up, and that I won't have to do so much research on New York. I've never been there and I'd be lost. There's nothing like having visited a city yourself to really get a feel for it.

I would like any kid to identify with the city though, like how Gotham is made up but resembles a real city. Anyone who knows Gotham knows about Wayne Tower. I'd like to use elements like Central Park and the subway, etc. If it's made up, I'll make up the names.

Here's another question, I always assumed Gotham was in America, though now that I think about it, I can never recall if anyone ever actually said. Though I do remember Batman visiting China and other places. Do the made up cities usually elude their exact location?

I am definitely going to need help with subways, despite it being a made up city or not. I want the city to be made up, but that doesn't mean I want subways that do strange things. I want the story to be fantasy, but the location to be realistic.

OK, disregard what I said. My reason for setting many of my stories in New York is because I live here and don't need to do research to know where things are. However, if you've never been here, you'll probably make mistakes about the city. Still, I'd just set it in a city you know well. But maybe I'm being lazy about not wanting the extra effort of writing my own city.

Oh, and any questions about the subway, hit me up with a PM. I take the subway every day to work and know it well.

Eric

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