Blacklisting PA Authors?

[jchines]

So over at the Rumor Mill (http://www.speculations.com/index.html?t=102187), it's come up that a small publisher will automatically reject any author who has a book out with Publish America. I know a PA book isn't a valid publishing credit to include in a cover letter, but the publisher in question talks about researching the authors' web sites and rejecting them if they have a PA book listed on their site.

Now I'm as eager to bury PA as a scam as the next person, but this struck me as wrong on a number of levels. Mostly, I have serious problems with punishing the victim, especially a victim who isn't sending their next book to PA, but is instead aiming higher. But the person in question insists that other publishers and agents blacklist PA authors as well ... even if they don't have the courage to announce it.

So I'm curious. Those of you who work as editors or agents, would you blacklist authors who have a book with Publish America? To everyone, have you ever heard of a legitimate publisher or agent doing this?

On the flip side, does anyone know of Publish America authors who have gone on to sell to legitimate publishers despite their PA-tarnished past?

[MMcC]

Well, in a way, if you think about it... the only way an editor or agent looking over a submission would KNOW the author was a former PA victim would be if he or she said so in their materials. In other words, it would have to be a freely offered piece of information.

If I were an editor and somebody submitted a packet to me-- cover letter, samples, etc-- that included PA as a credit, I would slush pile the submission. I know that sounds mean and unfair, but editors have to plow through a LOT of stuff, and an author who was unaware of how bad that looks would not be one I'd want to give any time investment.

I doubt anyone is googling authors to check on them in order to ban them for ANY past associations. But if somebody is clueless enough to submit and list a PA publication? Yeah, they probably DO shrug those people off.

[Fiendish Writer]

I doubt anyone is googling authors to check on them in order to ban them for ANY past associations.

If you follow the link Jim gave, you will see that one publisher *is* googling authors to check for PA in their past.

[veinglory]

Indeed. And the odds are that a PA publication would be indellible on the web unless the author used a pen name for it that they later changed--which might be a wise precaution.

[jchines]

Including PA as a credit in a cover letter would definitely make me cringe, if I were ever crazy enough to become an editor :tongue

But like Fiendish Writer said, this publisher is talking about Googling the author and rejecting anyone who simply includes a PA novel on their web site.

[Unimportant]

The Rumor Mill post read to me like this publisher actively seeks out archived information on Google about old PA books even if the author has got away from PA, moved on, and deleted all mention of the book from his website. While many agents and editors don't want to deal with an author who brags about their PA book, this particular publisher is the only person I've ever heard of who blackballs all ex-PA authors no matter what.

[job]

Could there be some contract problems that might arise from a former association with PA?

[AnnieColleen]

and deleted all mention of the book from his website.

It seemed like the concern was that, if this publisher accepted a new book from an ex-PA author, the new book and the PA book would appear together on the author's website and give the appearance of the publisher condoning PA. The door seemed to be open at least a crack for authors where that wasn't the case (had rights back, didn't have the PA book on the author's website). But it wasn't very clear!

[Saundra Julian]

What an idiot!
Blame PA not the author who got scammed! Geez, the nerve of some "holier than thou" people.

[VGrossack]

Could there be some contract problems that might arise from a former association with PA?

Probably only if you haven't really gotten rid of the contract. I would not worry about having had a PA contract for a book in the past; it's not an advantage, but it doesn't mean that you're blackballed. My book that was with PA in the past is currently with my (reputable) agent; I know that it has been looked at by (very reputable) publishing houses. If they don't take it, it won't be because it was with PA in the past but because it doesn't suit their current needs or desires. But they certainly didn't blackball it because it was previously with PA, or, at least, I've not received any feedback from my agent like this.

On the other hand, when it was with PA there was more than one place that refused to even review it because of the way other PA authors had behaved when receiving unfavorable reviews.

[jchines]

Victoria - if you were trying to market the same book you sold to PA, having it under contract with PA would definitely be a problem. But if you've written a new book and are trying to sell that, I'm still not understanding why an old PA novel should be held against you.

Best of luck getting a better home for your book, by the way!

Annie - the conversation at the Mill is ongoing, and the publisher has clarified his position a bit. You're right, he seems quite worried about the possibility of his books appearing on the same page as a PA novel. But I'm not understanding how that translates into them condoning PA, or how it could hurt them by association. It's possible I'm just clueless and naive when it comes to business, I guess.

[Jersey Chick]

If we're talking about the publisher I think we're talking about - it isn't limited to PA. XLibris and iUniverse were also mentioned.

Personally, I don't think it's a fair policy, even if the author in question doesn't know enough to know a vanity, or self-published, credit isn't a credit at all. I know editors and agents have to go through a lot of slush, but if they are googling archives and the like, that's an awful lot of effort just to reject someone. Just because someone became entangled in the PA web is no reason to hold it against them years later, after they learned the lousy, bitter lesson. Besides, I thought it was about the merit of the writing?

Just my humble opinion :)

[AnnieColleen]

But I'm not understanding how that translates into them condoning PA, or how it could hurt them by association. It's possible I'm just clueless and naive when it comes to business, I guess.


I don't get it either! (But then I know I'm pretty clueless still about business.)

[VGrossack]

Victoria - if you were trying to market the same book you sold to PA, having it under contract with PA would definitely be a problem. But if you've written a new book and are trying to sell that, I'm still not understanding why an old PA novel should be held against you.


It's the same book. But we are out of the PA contract.

And we have new books, too...

[Pagey's_Girl]

If I were an agent/editor, I'd be wary about publishing rights. I'd have to be sure that PA (or any other publisher) couldn't try to say that the rights weren't reverted for whatever reason. Barring that, I'd at least take a look - there's always the chance that it might be something wonderful.

So someone made an honest mistake? We all do. Why punish him or her for it?

[rubarbb]

Glad I found and read this as I am somewhat new to writing. Thanks rubarbb

[Gigi Sahi]

Y'know, a part of me always suspected something like this would happen to ex-PA authors. This is why as an ex-PA author, I no longer write under Gigi Sahi. It's always easier to blame the victim than punish the perpetrator. I always felt that I, along with all other authors who fell for PA's scam, would always be looked down upon, thought less of, by fellow writers - even after getting out of our PA contracts. In the eyes of many, whether they come out and say it or not, ex-PA'ers will always bear the "stain" of stupidity and/or ignorance of the industry for not seeing PA for what it is from the get-go.

I intend to have a writing career, so I had to kiss Gigi Sahi (my real name, btw) goodbye and use a pen name - so no one would know that I was once suckered by PA, and I wouldn't have to spend the rest of my career apologizing, explaining, and feeling embarrassed.

[Gigi Sahi]

I forgot to add that Sahi is my married name. I submit mss under my maiden name, so no one can trace Sahi back to the pen name I now use. Sahi is a pretty odd name in the US, so it tends to stand out.

[Arkie]

While we don't like to blame the PA author because we consider them to be scammed; nevertheless, in 2004, when I began marketing my PA book, I found bookstore managers, and one owner in particularly, soured on PA, not because of the publisher, but because of the deceptive practices of a few PA authors. They had talked the bookstore owner into buying books for a signing, convincing the owner they would buy the leftovers, but went off leaving the owner holding books that she couldn't sell nor return, or they went to the bookstore and placed orders that they never intended to pick up, thinking the book would be placed on a store shelf.

Additionally, there have been PA authors who have attempted to push their PA books or manuscripts of a PA book to legitimate publishers while the book is still under contract to PA. This kind of behavior has been going on since PA's inception, and it is not confined to PA authors, but vanity press authors and those self-published as well. It is not uncommon to read in literary periodicals or "how to" books of authors pushing published books on agents and publishers--being googled and found to have a detrimental sales performance, and quite often a contract in force.

So think of yourself as an agent or acquisition editor placed in a position of being presented with a PA book, vanity or self-published, with all the contingent legal ramifications. How do you think you would react?--particularly when you are being swamped with legitimate manuscripts, and continually adding to a slush pile so large that it has attracted the city Fire Marshal.

[veinglory]

I think it has already been made more than clear that that is not the situation under discussion (a PA book being simultaneously offered to a large press).

Although PA actively encourage authors behaving badly, self-pub in general seems not much better or worse than equivalent small presses for that sort of thing (e.g. the recent 'Short Cut' anthology fraud).

[CaoPaux]

If we're talking about the publisher I think we're talking about - it isn't limited to PA. XLibris and iUniverse were also mentioned.No, it's not Bleak House. And to be clear: Bleak House doesn't say "we won't publish you if you have a book with PA/iU/XLibris". They say "your query doesn't have a snowball's chance if you mention PA/iU/XLibris in it".

The (Lulu-based, but soon to be going directly to Lightning Source) pub we're discussing has specifically stated "no current/active PA authors".

IMHO, if y'all start at the top and work down, you'll have a long way to go before you reach a publisher with any need to be concerned about where a previous book was published.

[James D. Macdonald]

The (Lulu-based, but soon to be going directly to Lightning Source) pub we're discussing has specifically stated "no current/active PA authors".

Why is anyone even worried about those folks? Start at the top and work down; odds are you'll never get to them.

[Alien Enigma]

I'm not a lawyer or anything, but it sounds like discrimination to me. Where's Al and Jesse?

[Gravity]

Of course it's discrimination, Jeff. And there's not a thing wrong with that. It's how commerce works. Every time any of us makes a purchase, we're discriminating. We buy Hondas and not Fords because we find them more reliable. We buy Folgers instead of Maxwell House because we find it makes a better cup of coffee. We buy Porter paint instead of Sherwin Williams because we've found it weathers better. And so on.

And so it is with editors. Folks, I've taught at writers conferences (and am scheduled to do so again this fall). I've rubbed elbows with senior acquisitions editors at some of the major houses. And I'm finding out something: it really does matter the company one keeps. Because PA's rep is growing, and not in a good way. A few years ago the editors were mostly "PA? What's that?" Now it's "Oh, Lord. Yeah, we've heard of them."

Fair? Nope. Reality? Most assuredly.

[Alien Enigma]

Message 539473 by Adventure Books of Seattle (http://www.speculations.com/?t=459128) on 2007-04-27 01:34:47. Feedback: 0 Added note: Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture and make a stand.
PA represents the basest morals in publishing. It is not our fault if dumb-ass authors who didn't do their research got snagged up by them. I'll bet most PA authors did not even use the latest copy of Writers' Market when they subbed their book...and they got burned.

Explain that one, Grav. It was taken from Speculations. There's no need to insult and use profanity against people.

[Gravity]

I don't need to explain what was posted on a site I'm not even part of. I agree that insulting people and using profanity against them is gauche. Okay?

[Alien Enigma]

I reckon I'll let you slide on this one, John. ;) I agree with James. I'm writing a short story collection and I want it to be placed in stores. I wasn't planning on submitting it to a place like Adventure Books. I do believe it's not kosher for a publisher to be as unprofessional as the old chap was.

[Prog]

Most acquiring editors I know have never heard of PA. I wouldn't have known about it if not for reading these boards. If a cover letter says the author has been previously published, the editor will just check sales in Bookscan. If they see there have been next to none, then they'll probably ignore it. (Do PA sales even show up in Bookscan?) For fiction, all editors really care about is the submission on hand. If it's great, and the editor thinks it will sell, it wouldn't matter if the writer's previously only been published on bathroom walls.

Now that I know what PA is, I certainly wouldn't automatically reject an ms based on the writer's history with them. I'd just feel sorry for the writer.

(I'm assuming here that the submission comes via an agent. A writer sending a submission directly to a publisher who doesn't accept unsolicited material, now THAT's a sure-fire way to get automatically rejected. At least by me.)

[DaveKuzminski]

... I do believe it's not kosher for a publisher to be as unprofessional as the old chap was.

Care to provide us with an analysis of PA, then?

[Fiendish Writer]

Why is anyone even worried about those folks? Start at the top and work down; odds are you'll never get to them.

I'm not worried at all. But the publisher on the Rumormill stated that other publishers also blacklist current and ex-PA authors. I wanted to get confirmation that they do not, so I asked here. (And please note, I am NOT talking about mentioning PA in the cover letter. I said that before, but it seems to get lost in the noise.)

Alas, I never did hear directly from any editors or publishers.

[DaveKuzminski]

Alas, I never did hear directly from any editors or publishers.

If they try to answer every question individually, they'd have no time for publishing. That's why they have guidelines.

[Fiendish Writer]

If they try to answer every question individually, they'd have no time for publishing. That's why they have guidelines.

There are editors and publishers who read here. They answer other questions. I had hoped they would answer this one.

It seemed relevant, too, since experts like Uncle Jim and HapiSofi constantly advise PA authors to write another, better book and move on to real publishers. If there *are* other publishers who do "background checks" on authors, including Googling or check forums like this one, it makes moving on harder.

[Marie Pacha]

Prog,

I'm a writer. I've had two books published by Publish America, in 2003 and 2004. And I have currently filed for Arbitration against them.

I've learned a lot about the publishing industry since 2003; things I wish I had been aware of back then. It's a difficult field to find a niche in with so many talented writers eager and ready to be read.

I thought originally that PA would be my stepping stone to a larger, more established publishing company, and a more profitable writing career; but that certainly hasn't been the case so far. I can't write on a full time basis at the present time, but in the near future I hope that will change. And although I haven't had any of my other manuscripts accepted by other publishers I have learned what I need to work on to make them potentially successful.

I am working on a second ghostwriting job, and I regularly sell literary non-fiction essays; maybe not as regularly as I would like, but I started late in life. The credits on my resume are increasing slowly. But I removed PA's credits from my published work, and in the not too distant future will remove those titles from that area as well.

Marie

[roach]

I'm not worried at all. But the publisher on the Rumormill stated that other publishers also blacklist current and ex-PA authors. I wanted to get confirmation that they do not, so I asked here. (And please note, I am NOT talking about mentioning PA in the cover letter. I said that before, but it seems to get lost in the noise.)

Alas, I never did hear directly from any editors or publishers.

I would take anything this specific publisher says about the publishing industry as a whole with a five pound bag of salt.

[ByGrace]

I have written another novel that I'm currently submitting to agents. Meanwhile I am busy writing another book. Someday, I hope to rewrite my novels that PA once had under new titles and submit them. I had my rights reverted.

Should I:

1. Submit my manuscripts under a new name? My books PA had I used my real name.

2. Should my queries be signed under a new name?

3. Can I re-title my other books under a new name and submit them elsewhere?

[Sassenach]

I reckon I'll let you slide on this one, John. ;) I agree with James. I'm writing a short story collection and I want it to be placed in stores. I wasn't planning on submitting it to a place like Adventure Books. I do believe it's not kosher for a publisher to be as unprofessional as the old chap was.


How to you post comments like that with a straight face?

[DaveKuzminski]

Oh, come on, Jeffrey, it shouldn't be that difficult or take that long for a literary fireball to write an analysis of PublishAmerica. Come on, let's hear what you have to say about PA.

[Fiendish Writer]

I would take anything this specific publisher says about the publishing industry as a whole with a five pound bag of salt.

I do. (Take it with lots of salt, that is.)

But it would be helpful if Jim or I could cite publisher and editor back on the other forum. Not to convince *that publisher*--he's happy in his convictions--but to reassure any lurking PA authors who are doing their best to move on.

[roach]

I do. (Take it with lots of salt, that is.)

But it would be helpful if Jim or I could cite publisher and editor back on the other forum. Not to convince *that publisher*--he's happy in his convictions--but to reassure any lurking PA authors who are doing their best to move on.

Well okay then.

How about first off as an ex-publisher I never turned someone down because s/he published with Publish America? And I've never before heard of another publisher blacklisting a writer because s/he published with Publish America.

But if my word isn't credible enough how about we look at another expert in the field, Miss Snark (http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2007/04/i-was-young-i-needed-money.html). Click on the link and read the question and her answer. Granted the question is specifically about something other than Publish America but her answer could be stretched (with very little effort) to mean that one's publishing history isn't going to be held against one.

(I thought Miss Snark dealt with a similar question regarding PA a while back but I can't find the blog entry right now.)

I really do hope no one is taking this guy seriously.

[jchines]

Link seems to be broken, Roach.

Working now - thanks!

[DaveKuzminski]

Miss Snark posted that her site would go dark for this week. It's available, but she won't be posting temporarily.

[jchines]

Thanks, all. So far, I've heard from two editors and read Miss Snark's post, all of which say (or imply, in Miss Snark's case) that they would certainly not blacklist an author who had published with PA. Including PA as a credit in a cover letter isn't going to help you, and it might hurt, but that's very different from blacklisting.

I'm still curious, but at this point, I'm satisfied that Adventure Book's policy is very much non-standard among publishers. (Which is what I assumed, but I was open to being proven wrong.)

[abemorgantis]

Thanks, all. So far, I've heard from two editors and read Miss Snark's post, all of which say (or imply, in Miss Snark's case) that they would certainly not blacklist an author who had published with PA. Including PA as a credit in a cover letter isn't going to help you, and it might hurt, but that's very different from blacklisting.

I'm still curious, but at this point, I'm satisfied that Adventure Book's policy is very much non-standard among publishers. (Which is what I assumed, but I was open to being proven wrong.)

Black listing PA authors is bad, I agree. Now listing it as a previous publishing credit on a query or a CV is bad and should be not be done.

Imagine Miranda Prather if she has to find another job someday. Convicted felon and ran PA. She better hope her job is secure.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Snipped...

On the flip side, does anyone know of Publish America authors who have gone on to sell to legitimate publishers despite their PA-tarnished past?


I can think of a couple on these very boards, if I'm not mistaken, who have been punished published punished through PA and went on to become legitimately-published authors. I believe Gravity is one, and Sparhawk is another.

This, to me, proves that if the writing is good and the writer in question realizes their mistake, their past is not going to stop them from becoming legitimately published.

As for professionalism on the publisher's part? I think if they're more worried about where someone published a previous work, than they are about a writer's dedication to their craft, their professionalism level is pretty darned low. Miss Snark, I believe, used to say, "Good writing trumps all". If that's true, whether or not the writer previously published with PA should be completely irrelevant to whether a work is accepted or rejected.


All in my opinion, of course.

[Tina]

The Rumor Mill post read to me like this publisher actively seeks out archived information on Google about old PA books even if the author has got away from PA, moved on, and deleted all mention of the book from his website. While many agents and editors don't want to deal with an author who brags about their PA book, this particular publisher is the only person I've ever heard of who blackballs all ex-PA authors no matter what.

I wonder if this is actually 'blacklisting,' or rather, simply not considering writers who don't know enough about the industry to steer clear of (or at least not mention) PA.

By now, most agents know the scoop. Sadly, agents and even some publishers DO make a connection between writing skill and publishing savvy, even though that may not be the case. They may assume that if you'd hook up with PA, your book isn't well-written or readable. In a lot of cases that may be the truth, and the good writers get lost in the shuffle.

The good news is that talented, educated writers will move on from PA.

[Tina]

I forgot to add that Sahi is my married name. I submit mss under my maiden name, so no one can trace Sahi back to the pen name I now use. Sahi is a pretty odd name in the US, so it tends to stand out.

My very first impression when I saw your name was that it is beautiful. Great author or actor name.

Only use a pen name if you want to. Don't give PA that kind of power. They don't have it. If someone finds out you wrote a PA book, just say, 'yeah, but now I've moved on and have no ongoing association with them.'

Like a stupid ex, you wonder what you ever saw in them.

[Gravity]

Yep, I was PA-printed in 2001 (when there was very little known about them) and after many emails was finally released a year or so ago. After realizing my PA mistake, in 2002 I wrote another, better book, and managed to snag a good agent. And in summer of 2003 she subsequently sold that next novel--as well as the two sequels--to a solid commercial house.

Let me tell you, the difference between being PA-printed and commercially published is like night and day. I'll never forget what happened in spring of 2004, shortly after that novel was out. I was in my local B&N, nosing around, when something caused me to look up. There, over in the next aisle, a guy had my book pulled off the shelf, and was slowly flipping through it. Bear in mind this was a book that garnered me what Publisher's Weekly calls "a nice advance." I paid not one thin dime for for the privilege, didn't have to beg the store owner to stock it, nor shlep some around with me. The reviews were solid, spot-on, and unsolicited. But that's not the best part. After another moment I saw him pause, smile, and then--wonder of wonders--take it up to the register and buy the thing. I darn near cried, ladies and gents. Granted, I'm still far from a household name. But I'm on my way. And THAT is what being commercially published is all about.

[Tina]

I'm writing a short story collection and I want it to be placed in stores.

Will this be kosher with PA?

Heeheeheehee

[Sparhawk]

Oh, come on, Jeffrey, it shouldn't be that difficult or take that long for a literary fireball to write an analysis of PublishAmerica. Come on, let's hear what you have to say about PA.

<<Crickets chirping in the background>> The silence is deafening. One cannot defend the undefendable nor excuse the inexcusable. There is no defense for Publish America. To answer part of the initial post; I had a book with PA, got my rights back and have another book coming out with another publisher Jan 08. PLUS, my PA book will ALSO be released by this publisher later in 08.

What did it take? A HELL of alot of hard work, many edits and constructive critiques.

[AnneMarble]

So over at the Rumor Mill (http://www.speculations.com/index.html?t=102187), it's come up that a small publisher will automatically reject any author who has a book out with Publish America.
That thread was ... interesting. I saw a lot of claims made, then claims that the claims were back up, and then posters pointing out that they hadn't been. Parts of that thread gave me deja vu for the infamous R*ckoids thread on usenet. (Uncle Jim will know what I mean... And will probably shriek. :))

Oh, well. I'm trying to remember if I heard of Adventure Books of Seattle before this, and I'm not sure. Probably not -- unless I saw them post in an anti-PA thread. And I wonder if that many people have heard of them before this thread. So that means that there are far better markets out there for your novels.

Remember, living well is the best revenge. If you're an ex-PA author who is now aiming at commercial publishers, aim higher than Adventure Books of Seattle. As Uncle Jim always says, start at the top. Try Random House or Tor or somebody else like that. If you succeed, more people will be able to read your book than if you had gone with a small press. :D

[Fiendish Writer]

...the infamous R*ckoids thread...

Nooooooo! I'd nearly suppressed memories of that one!

[Rolling Thunder]

no fantasy, or anything resembling fantasy

Since this is what I prefer to write, ABOS won't even show up as a blip on my future submission radar.

[Ken Schneider]

All the more reason to get a few real credits under your belt.

I have two now, and use them when submitting.

If you can write, and submit your work as you should, someone will see the merit in it, no matter.

[jamiehall]

Rachel Vater just had a post on a similar subject (http://raleva31.livejournal.com/48435.html). It doesn't deal directly with PA, but with the larger topic of POD self-published works.

[icerose]

Yes. If you list PA as a credit, you will get the trash pile, and sometimes a polite explanation as to why you're rejected. One of my rejection letters. The first and only time I used PA as a credit.

"Although your writing shows promise, I'm afraid that with your first experience being Publish America, you'll have too many misconceptions about the industry and I don't have time to set them all straight."

Which to me tells me that authors themselves caused it and not merely PA's own reputation. If those publishers and agents didn't have any trouble with authors who had now steered back on the right course, they wouldn't have such a problem, but like Roundtable Reviews who stopped giving PA books reviews, not because of PA itself, but because of the Author's actions when they recieved their reviews.

In short, we brought this on ourselves. Or at least a minority ruined it for the majority.