He Writes Like a Girl!

Sohia Rose · Apr 28, 2007

Another post reminded me of something that my husband said. We’re both avid readers: He likes fiction and I will only read memoirs or how-to books.

So, a while ago, he started reading the book, Running With Scissors by Augusten Burroughs. He then slammed the book onto my desk thirty minutes later.

I twisted my lips and gave him an exaggerated stare. “That quick of a read?”

“It’s bullshit!”

“What happened?”

“Tsck. He writes like a girl!”

So I thought, ‘How the hell can he write like a girl… My hubby’s literary knowledge is more well-versed than mine, so let me quit while I’m ahead.’

I thought about it some more. Okay, I’ll go ahead and admit it. I tend to fall for books written by “girls.” In my opinion, the language is different; the level of intimacy is different. The use of language is different. Am I making this up? Or am I just that shallow (ugh, this one is a rhetorical question)?

What do you think? Can authors reveal their sex through their writing? Can a guy write like a girl and vice-versa? If so, is that bad?

Deleted member 42 · Apr 28, 2007

Sohia Rose said:
Okay, I’ll go ahead and admit it. I tend to fall for books written by “girls.” In my opinion, the language is different; the level of intimacy is different. The use of language is different. Am I making this up? Or am I just that shallow (ugh, this one is a rhetorical question)?

No; you're right. There are tendencies in text and in speak to use gender-marked language. In English text, this is largely a matter of word choice and syntax; in other languages there are other cues. Sometimes it's not easy to tell; that is, there are people who are atypical writers for their sex, deliberately or naturally.

A good writer modifies style to suit purpose and audience, and a good fiction writer is sensitive to the way people speak, and creates dialog for characters that suits each individual.

Melanie Nilles · Apr 28, 2007

IMHO, there is a difference. I think women ("girls" is so belittling) focus more on relationships and do get more intimate with their characters. I can tell the difference between a male and female writer most of the time. Women like at least a touch of emotion and men focus more on action. Look at two romances written by each--not necesarily romance novels but romances set in other genres--and you know which was written by a woman and which by a man. It's perhaps more complicated than that, but at the basics it seems to me to be a matter of emotion vs. action on the part of the characters. By "action" I don't mean something that is necessary to moving the story forward, but more in line with the kind of action we think of as part of an "action movie". (blatant sex vs. making love in the example of romance.)

Okay, if I didn't totally write myself into corner, I think I made some sense.

Deleted member 42 · Apr 28, 2007

At the same time, remember a good writer controls style; look at the history of James Tiptree Jr./Alice Sheldon/Racoona Sheldon or Currer Bell.

victoriastrauss · Apr 28, 2007

Medievalist said:
No; you're right. There are tendencies in text and in speak to use gender-marked language. In English text, this is largely a matter of word choice and syntax; in other languages there are other cues.

I find this extremely difficult to accept, both practically and philosophically. In any case, I think that the differences that one can isolate by scientific study are probably not the same as what's perceived by people who think they can recognize whether a writer is male or female simply by reading the writer's prose (it's not a recognition that is ever tested, anyway, since they know who the author is). Often when I see discussions of this subject, the differences people think they see are based on gender stereotypes, or on assumptions about which issues preoccupy which gender, rather than on anything objective.

Some years ago there was a wonderful article in the New York Times magazine debunking gender-based writing assumptions. I can't remember the author or the year--I wish I could find it again, it was very persuasive.

- Victoria

Sohia Rose · Apr 28, 2007

It would take a nice chunk of German Chocolate Cake to get me to read a memoir by a male author. I tried a few times, and the ones I read, I couldn't get pass the cussing and ass scratching (I'm exaggerating, a little).

There were a few male-author books my husband said were a "must read." So I read them, filled with booze, sex, fighting, cussing and just, well, nothing for me. Even though I've read similar books by female authors, but expressed in a different way.

For example, a woman author: I stared at him. His green eyes reminded me of the way things were. That's behind us now.

A male author: ... Her emerald eyes sparkled like wild boar sex under the Tuscan moon. I watched the sweat trickle from her neck and land between sand dunes.

Okay, I just made that up, but you get the idea.

Sohia Rose · Apr 28, 2007

victoriastrauss said:
... Often when I see discussions of this subject, the differences people think they see are based on gender stereotypes, or on assumptions about which issues preoccupy which gender, rather than on anything objective.

- Victoria

I think that's probably what I do. And that's probably what my husband did.

Deleted member 42 · Apr 28, 2007

victoriastrauss said:
I find this extremely difficult to accept, both practically and philosophically. In any case, I think that the differences that one can isolate by scientific study are probably not the same as what's perceived by people who think they can recognize whether a writer is male or female simply by reading the writer's prose (it's not a recognition that is ever tested, anyway, since they know who the author is).

Err, no, it's not a hard science, but it is linguistics. It's useful in legal cases, particularly in terms of anonymous text, and well, I'm pretty good at it -- good enough that I'm paid to look at text for clues about the age, sex, education, class and dialect of an anonymous writer. That said, again, I've had about twenty years of practice at it, and lots of training. Finally, these are tendencies, not absolute rules, and a good writer has control of style.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 28, 2007

Girl

When I notice a real difference between male and females writers, it's almost always in the portrayal of character. Many otherwise excellent female writers do not get their male characters at all accurate, just as many otherwise very good male writers do not get female character accurate.

But I do firmly believe you can often, certainly not always, but pretty darned often, tell the difference in word choice and syntax.

Stereotypes almost always have a basis in fact, else they wouldn't be stereotypes.

I enjoy reading a large number of female writers, I think "writing like a girl" is usually a good thing, but I do see many differences in the way the average female and the average male writer writes.

scarletpeaches · Apr 28, 2007

I just can't believe anyone would think writing like a 'girl' would mean the book was bullshit.

Sohia Rose · Apr 28, 2007

scarletpeaches said:
I just can't believe anyone would think writing like a 'girl' would mean the book was bullshit.

My husband's a HUGE fan of Charles Bukowski. We have every one of his books on our bookshelf, which is overloaded! Do I need to say more?

I did enjoy Bukowski's Post Office. But he writes like a dude.

Sohia Rose · Apr 28, 2007

No need to be sorry aadams73 (I read the post already :tongue

). My husband wouldn't dare tell anyone outside of our home that this is what he said. He'd do the politically correct thing and say, "Oh, well, it depends on the female author." And if he knew I posted this––even though he's anonymous––he'd be a little upset.

I'm using him as an illustration, so you guys (and gals) can get the gist of what's happening here. I could have presented a hypothetical situation, but real life situations tend to be more powerful.

Soccer Mom · Apr 28, 2007

Hmmmm. An interesting topic. I have quite a mix of male and female authors on my shelves, starring both male and female MCs.

I glanced at Soccer Dad's shelves. He reads history, thriller, horror, SF and fantasy (BFF at that). I don't see a SINGLE female author on his shelves. Not one. Rest assured that I'll be quizzing him about it and reporting back. :tongue

Sassee · Apr 28, 2007

I can usually tell the difference between male and female writing without ever looking at the name of the person that wrote it.

Jamesaritchie said:
When I notice a real difference between male and females writers, it's almost always in the portrayal of character. Many otherwise excellent female writers do not get their male characters at all accurate, just as many otherwise very good male writers do not get female character accurate.

And this, unfortunately, is becoming true in my own writing. Occassionally I have to ask one of my guy friends what he'd say or how he'd react to a certain situation, because it's usually different than what I was thinking about writing.

jodiodi · Apr 28, 2007

Wow. I must be incredibly shallow or unobservant. I never notice if a man or woman wrote whatever book i'm reading. I just read because the concept intrigued me and i want to know what happens. If I like the book, ok; if I don't, ok. I don't care who wrote it. Then again, I'm not 'in touch with women's issues', as it were. Every time I see politcal candidates or books or movies or other things supposedly targeting women, I usually find I couldn't possibly care less. Maybe I'm too in touch with my masculine side.

Rob B · Apr 28, 2007

What a provocative topic. For me, this is like a phrenology paper I once read where people were supposed to select the area of the U.S. that others hailed from based on the shape of their heads. I don't need to elaborate on the answers, as they were overwhelmingly stereotypical--and egregiously wrong.

My initial response to a question on this topic is to ask what to do for those who didn't know until years after reading their work that Isak Dinesen was a female, or George Elliott or Flannery O'Connor? From current fare, could one tell that a male wrote THE HOURS?

The answer is probably somewhere in mold of that phrenology study, but I do agree that someone trained in linguistic forensics could certainly recognize trends, much the same as a handwriting expert could correctly distinguish gender--most of the time. However, I don't think it could be considered a definitive science, nor would I expect an expert to commit to that. And this is the rub.

But what a great question, and a topic my wife and I have discussed (notice I didn't say argued) many times during our thirty-two years of marriage.

Chumplet · Apr 28, 2007

This is a very interesting topic. As a former tomboy, I am now curious. Since my first two and a half novels share the POVs of men and women, I'd like to know if random readers think I write like a boy or a girl.

Perhaps we should try a little experiment. Several of us could submit a short piece from a WIP and ask AWers if they think the piece was written by a guy or a gal. We could submit anonymously, and ensure that the piece isn't linked to something we'd already posted in SYW.

Hmmmm?

Sohia Rose · Apr 28, 2007

jodiodi said:
Wow. I must be incredibly shallow or unobservant. I never notice if a man or woman wrote whatever book i'm reading. I just read because the concept intrigued me and i want to know what happens. If I like the book, ok; if I don't, ok. I don't care who wrote it. Then again, I'm not 'in touch with women's issues', as it were. Every time I see politcal candidates or books or movies or other things supposedly targeting women, I usually find I couldn't possibly care less. Maybe I'm too in touch with my masculine side.

And see, that’s just it for me. I could read a sappy, childhood-gone-wrong memoir by a female author over and over. And I do. If they write it, I will come.

Oh, and my hubby’s into Tom Clancy, which I wouldn’t touch with a metal stick while wearing an astronaut’s suit.

My husband just got home. Here’s what went down:

“What’chu doing?” He asked.

“On the writing forum.”

“What are they talking about?”

“Oh, reading books by authors of the opposite sex… Would you read a book by a female author?”

“Sure. What’s wrong with it?” He said coyly.

“What if it was a romance or some sappy, childhood-gone-wrong memoir.”

He paused. “Most certainly not!”

“Why?”

“Because I’m not interested in that.”

You think subject matter has something to do with it? I know I wouldn’t be interested in a male’s memoir about him chasing some skirt! Ugh, or some military men in a submarine fendin' off the Russians.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 28, 2007

Girl

scarletpeaches said:
I just can't believe anyone would think writing like a 'girl' would mean the book was bullshit.

Well, if, for example, what you most enjoy reading are, of, say the "Longarm" westerns, you might well think anything written by a girl is BS. Doesn't mean it is, of course, but a reader truly limited to reading such fiction isn't exactly a good judge of what is and isn't BS.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 28, 2007

Rob B said:
What a provocative topic. For me, this is like a phrenology paper I once read where people were supposed to select the area of the U.S. that others hailed from based on the shape of their heads. I don't need to elaborate on the answers, as they were overwhelmingly stereotypical--and egregiously wrong.

My initial response to a question on this topic is to ask what to do for those who didn't know until years after reading their work that Isak Dinesen was a female, or George Elliott or Flannery O'Connor? From current fare, could one tell that a male wrote THE HOURS?

The answer is probably somewhere in mold of that phrenology study, but I do agree that someone trained in linguistic forensics could certainly recognize trends, much the same as a handwriting expert could correctly distinguish gender--most of the time. However, I don't think it could be considered a definitive science, nor would I expect an expert to commit to that. And this is the rub.

But what a great question, and a topic my wife and I have discussed (notice I didn't say argued) many times during our thirty-two years of marriage.

I don't think phrenology is a good comparison. There really are many differences between men and women, even down to how our brains function, and even without resorting to stereotypes. Sometimes the differences in writing will be very minor, and at other times extreme. some women write remarkably like men, and some men write remarkably like women, but very, very often there are major differences.

Because one or two or twenty women write in a way indistinguishable from the way men write is meaningless.

Deleted member 42 · Apr 28, 2007

Again, it's not an exact science, and good writer's control their style -- but for some very silly fun:
http://bookblog.net/gender/genie.php

Caveats: This is using some really lame criteria, and you really need to use a big chunk of text.

Chumplet · Apr 28, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
Because one or two or twenty women write in a way indistinguishable from the way men write is meaningless.

It's still interesting, whether meaningless or not.

Just Me · Apr 28, 2007

Sohia Rose said:
What do you think? Can authors reveal their sex through their writing? Can a guy write like a girl and vice-versa?

According to the Gender Genie, all of the above is possible. :tongue

I've run different pieces of my writing through the thing, and even though I'm DEFINITELY female (and quite happy with this, I might add), it thinks I'm a guy over half the time. Of course, that works out well for me since I tend to write male main characters.

If so, is that bad?

No, not at all. Viva la difference, I say, since that means there's something for everyone.

~JM.

maestrowork · Apr 28, 2007

I find it sad that the OP's husband would slam down a book because the (male) author writes "like a girl" -- whatever that means. Actually, I don't think Burroughs wrote like a girl at all in Running with Scissors. Maybe the husband was more used to the brash, hard-boiled style of, say, Dean Koontz?

Ah... Tom Clancy -- that explains a lot.

But even if he's right, that Burroughs did write like a girl, so what?

I don't get it.

If he really wants to read someone who writes like girl... try Nicholas Sparks and James Patterson (when he tried to attempt romance -- God help us all). He would probably gouge his eyes out.

maestrowork · Apr 28, 2007

Sohia Rose said:
You think subject matter has something to do with it? I know I wouldn’t be interested in a male’s memoir about him chasing some skirt! Ugh, or some military men in a submarine fendin' off the Russians.

So he probably wouldn't read Memoirs of a Geisha or even Angela Ashes, but he would read a suspense/thriller written by a woman.

So to him, writing like a girl is more about subject matters -- romance, coming-of-age, soul-searching, relationship issues... Something like About A Boy (lad lit) or About Schmidt (late coming of age) would probably mean "write like a girl" to him than any of Nora Roberts' mysteries (as JD Robb).

He Writes Like a Girl!

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