Americans Writing about England?

[ned]

After the WIP time and place thread, I noted dozens of writers who placed their novels in England. One groups is predominantly prehistoric (or some era I know nothing about), while the other is spread across post-Napoleonic through Victorian.

Why the fascination with England? I've seen that some writer's conferences even offer sessions on Americans writing about England. I've been lucky to have lived there for many years.

I'm as guitly as you all. Everything I've written begins or ends up in England and all take place between 1799 and 1820. My current MC is a French emigre ala Tale of Two Cities, but not quite so precious. (Face it, Charles Darnay had no charisma. Actually, he had no personality whatever. Sidney Carton made the book!)

My other characters are naval anti-heroes in service after the Peace of Amiens.

I'd lke to hear from other England writers. What's your fascination, your inspiration, your passion, and why does it center on England?

For me, its a love of history in general, Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars in particular. This also encompasses "Regency," of course, so Regency writers reply as well! It would be really fun to share research where possible. There are so many kinds of historical novels, from the action/adventure to the romance (modern definition), war stories, and stories about quiet village life well away from towns or cities.

But why England? Explain yourselves!

[PattiTheWicked]

For me, it's a combination of things. I like writing stories set in England and Scotland, because (a) it's where my family is from and (b) I enjoy READING stories set there and (c) I've done a buttload of research on events that took place in England and (d) I think English history is fascinating.

That's not to say American history isn't equally interesting, but there certainly isn't as much of it.

I mean, can you imagine Jane Austen setting Pride and Prejudice in a farm town in Ohio? It's just not the same. I'm working on a story about Hadrian's Wall. There's only one place it could be set :)

Perhaps we don't even have a choice, in some cases. Maybe the story itself is what determines the setting? I mean, you could say, "I'm going to write a mystery novel," and it could be set anywhere... but if you say "I'm going to write a mystery novel and the main character is the daughter of a clergyman who happens to be married to the son of an MP and it turns out the killer is King Edward's butler".... well, then, you've pretty much got your locale determined for you.

[Jenan Mac]

Good point. The setting IS a character, to a certain degree.
My last two WsIP have been set in the same place (piedmont NC, rather than England), but in multiple times. And there simply weren't an abundance of Scots and English colonists in, say, 18th century Tampa. If I'd stuck my people there, it would have been a whole 'nother book entirely-- and vaguely strange, to boot.

[Diviner]

I'm with Patti, at least part way, but more than that, my series of historicals, tracing one family, starts in England, so of course I had to set the first one there. In the U.S., particularly on the frontier, the major issue was survival. The education, prejudices, and power struggles in the old country offer more room for exploration of subtleties. The more research I did, the richer I found the conflicts and issues in Britain. I expect to find the conflicts in the U.S less complex, especially because my series deals with the westward movement. But I have not done much research yet except to study family genealogies and read a few old books.

[scarletpeaches]

Inevitably I feel I should step in and point out that England is not the island - that's Britain, which is made up of three separate countries and as a Scot I feel obligated to point out that 'English' and 'British' are not interchangeable.

[Marlys]

My first two romances are Regencies, set in England. I love the genre, and wanted to contribute to it.

My WIP--which if all goes well should be my third published--is set during the same time period, but takes place in Austria (Congress of Vienna) and France. Still a romance, but there's room for a bit of intrigue.

[Diviner]

Inevitably I feel I should step in and point out that England is not the island - that's Britain, which is made up of three separate countries and as a Scot I feel obligated to point out that 'English' and 'British' are not interchangeable.

My research says that the concept "Britain" lapsed after the Romans left and was not used again until the reign of James I, King of Scotland as James VI before he acceded the throne of England in 1603-- thus my use of both terms. No, the terms are not interchangeable, but my use is quite specific, if that is what you are referring to.

I haven't researched the use of UK, so I do not offer that into this discussion.

[pdr]

you do need to be careful in your use of the terms England and English.

Scotland, Wales and Ireland had (and still have) separate identities and fought to keep them.

Great Britain, the Commonwealth, the British Empire or the United Kingdom are useful terms to remember and use. But Cardiff is in Wales and Edinburgh is in Scotland. And King George 111 was not the English King but King of the United Kingdoms of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales (always written in that same alphabetical order.)

Scarlet lives in Scotland, she's Scottish first, a citizen of the UK second.
My friend in Northern Ireland is Irish first and a citizen of the UK second.
My relatives in Yorkshire are English first and citizens of the UK second.
It's important to them for their identity.

[scarletpeaches]

Britain as a kingdom (i.e. ruled by one monarch) might not have existed, so to speak, until 1603 and the subsequent Act of Union (17--??) but as a concept, it's only ever been used to describe the island consisting of England, Scotland and Wales. It's never properly been used to describe England alone.

Likewise, if you ever dared ask a Scot or Welshman where in England they were from...let's just say I hope you've got your running shoes on...;)

[C.bronco]

I've never written one, but my guess would be that it is another country on another continent, which makes it exotic (more so than New Jersey), AND you speak English, which is very convenient for us in the USA.
Likewise, setting a story in England allows us American folk to use phrases such as "old chap," which we never get to use around here.
In an aside, my paternal ancestors are from the Scottish lowlands. I'd love to visit one day.

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

I've always been fascinated by Tudor England. Why? Who knows! :) I can't explain it any more than I can explain my fascination for the Titanic, Egypt or mythology. I just do. It's like liking chocolate and not liking liver. I just accept it and go on. :D

[Puma]

Or could it be that American History has been given short shrift by our educational institutions (and to some extent our writers and publishers)? Yes, American History is shorter, but 400, 500, even 1000 years (Leif Erickson) is plenty of time to have a lot of material to write about. Look at the period of the French Revolution and Napoleonic France - what was happening in the Americas (collectively, not just the states) in the same time period? How much has been written about America in comparison to France? Novels written about the French Revolution don't stray far from Paris - but are novels written about Philadelphia in the same time period looked at with equal enthusiasm or are they classified as too regional to be of wide interest? There's a lot of American History that's not well represented in literature; there are a lot of fascinating stories that have never been told. I'd like to see more writers working on topics in American History. Puma

[ned]

It looks as though most writers who place stories in the UK are fond of the combination of History with a capital H and romance (in the traditional sense and the modern sense.)

I tend to choose England because
1. I know the country
2. I'm a history geek
3. I love good stories and since no one wrote the story I wanted to read, I decided to write it myself

The more I research, the more stories I find, always in the most unlikely places.

What inspired each of your main characters? For me, it was a mention by a famous sea captain during the 1790s of a French emigre nobleman he had taken on board to tutor his midshipmen sons. He never names the man, but mentions him frequently as his son's companion and his own good friend.

I just couldn't leave it alone.

[SpookyWriter]

Inevitably I feel I should step in and point out that England is not the island - that's Britain, which is made up of three separate countries and as a Scot I feel obligated to point out that 'English' and 'British' are not interchangeable.Ah, and my peach friend, just what is the difference between a Brit and Englander? There is a historical separation or definition that most folks don't know about.

[SpookyWriter]

It looks as though most writers who place stories in the UK are fond of the combination of History with a capital H and romance (in the traditional sense and the modern sense.)

I tend to choose England because
1. I know the country
2. I'm a history geek
3. I love good stories and since no one wrote the story I wanted to read, I decided to write it myself

The more I research, the more stories I find, always in the most unlikely places.

What inspired each of your main characters? For me, it was a mention by a famous sea captain during the 1790s of a French emigre nobleman he had taken on board to tutor his midshipmen sons. He never names the man, but mentions him frequently as his son's companion and his own good friend.

I just couldn't leave it alone.I have to ask. How do you know the country? Have you ever set foot on English soil or lived there? If your knowledge comes from books or other media sources then I can say it's impossible to support "I know the country" position.

Just curious.

Cheers

[scarletpeaches]

Ah, and my peach friend, just what is the difference between a Brit and Englander? There is a historical separation or definition that most folks don't know about.

If you're from England, you're English.

But to describe someone as 'British' means they could be from England, Scotland or Wales. Britain is a group name for these three countries. It's not a country itself, just a collective name, hence the annoyance from Scots and the Welsh when others use 'English' and 'British' as if they mean the same thing. They don't.

[funidream]

Books like COLD MOUNTAIN and television series like DEADWOOD are very popular. I just got a two-book deal from Penguin for novels with an American focus. My finished book, UPLAND (on the shelves in Spring 2008) is set on the frontier in colonial Virginia. The second book, (as yet untitled and unwritten) is the first of a three book series set during the American Revolution.

UPLAND was inspired by an ancestor of my husbands - a longhunter - I "found" him doing a geneological research. I am fascinated by all history, but as an immigrant kid (my parents immigrated here in 1951) I always had an affinity for American history in particular.

funidream (the funny dream was that one day I would be published!)

[SpookyWriter]

If you're from England, you're English.

But to describe someone as 'British' means they could be from England, Scotland or Wales. Britain is a group name for these three countries. It's not a country itself, just a collective name, hence the annoyance from Scots and the Welsh when others use 'English' and 'British' as if they mean the same thing. They don't.Actually I am from England. Born there and lived on and off for several years. My dad is Scot and my mom is Irish. I hold and use my British passport when living in the EU or England.

So, you are partially right. The term British includes the territories and common wealths of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. I can site the reference, but that's not necessary.

I agree with your statement that Scots are not Brits. Believe me, I have a Scot/Irish temper. Plus, I can drink any Brit under the table on a bad night. :D

[scarletpeaches]

Oh, I never said Scots aren't Brits. They (we) are. But British doesn't necessarily mean English.

Confused yet?

And I'm half-Italian, therefore I rule. :D

[scarletpeaches]

...So, you are partially right. The term British includes the territories and common wealths of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. I can site the reference, but that's not necessary...

Britain doesn't include 'UK' territories. The UK is the United Kingdom of Britain, the islands, the Commonwealth, blah blah blah...

[ned]

I have to ask. How do you know the country? Have you ever set foot on English soil or lived there? If your knowledge comes from books or other media sources then I can say it's impossible to support "I know the country" position.

Just curious.

Cheers


We lived there for about ten years, between 1984 and 1996, with a short time back in the U.S. between. When I first went, I knew nothing of History. Changing schools frequently, I somehow missed it. Sure, we had to learn the cliches of American History, but when I went to school, America was the only country with any history worth learning!

It was so sad, I missed so much. Living in England showed me that America was the new kid on the block and that we weren't even old enough to have furniture one could properly call antique. It was just used furniture.

We fell in love with England while living in a small town outside Oxford called Wigginton. There were more horses than people there, and one was considered "new" until one had grandparents buried in the churchyard. Our house was "The Old Reading Room," and my son was born there. I had sheep in my back garden and the whole village was strewn with daffs in the spring, dozens of varieties planted all around the green. At Halloween, the gardener across the way would bring us pumpkins to carve, great yellow/white gourds with dark orange insides. One was so big, my son fit inside. ... I could go on for a decade, so I'll shut up.

In the end, our time there inspired a love of history that I'd never had before. There's a feeling there, that we don't have here. There will always be an England!

[SpookyWriter]

Oh, I never said Scots aren't Brits. They (we) are. But British doesn't necessarily mean English.

Confused yet?

And I'm half-Italian, therefore I rule. :DNot according to Mussolini. But you make be a half cooked Scot who likes to suck up her noodles proper. :D

[SpookyWriter]

We lived there for about ten years, between 1984 and 1996, with a short time back in the U.S. between. When I first went, I knew nothing of History. Changing schools frequently, I somehow missed it. Sure, we had to learn the cliches of American History, but when I went to school, America was the only country with any history worth learning!

It was so sad, I missed so much. Living in England showed me that America was the new kid on the block and that we weren't even old enough to have furniture one could properly call antique. It was just used furniture.

We fell in love with England while living in a small town outside Oxford called Wigginton. There were more horses than people there, and one was considered "new" until one had grandparents buried in the churchyard. Our house was "The Old Reading Room," and my son was born there. I had sheep in my back garden and the whole village was strewn with daffs in the spring, dozens of varieties planted all around the green. At Halloween, the gardener across the way would bring us pumpkins to carve, great yellow/white gourds with dark orange insides. One was so big, my son fit inside. ... I could go on for a decade, so I'll shut up.

In the end, our time there inspired a love of history that I'd never had before. There's a feeling there, that we don't have here. There will always be an England!
Ned, that was lovely. Thanks for sharing those memories. I think you have a love for England and at some point will return. Please do share your memories because they brought me back to where I was born and lived. Again, thanks.

Cheers

[scarletpeaches]

Being half-Italian means you don't want to mess with me...but you might as well, 'cause I'm too drunk to fight back. :D

[SpookyWriter]

Being half-Italian means you don't want to mess with me...but you might as well, 'cause I'm too drunk to fight back. :DI ain't never met a Scot who didn't like a good fight. Your Italian half is starting to show. Hahhaaa...

P.S. If you're pissed before ten then you're a Brit, else you're a true Scot.

[waylander]

If you're from England, you're English.

But to describe someone as 'British' means they could be from England, Scotland or Wales. Britain is a group name for these three countries. It's not a country itself, just a collective name, hence the annoyance from Scots and the Welsh when others use 'English' and 'British' as if they mean the same thing. They don't.

Yeah but no.
If you're from England then you identify more closely with the region you come from. Yorkshire, Lancashire, Newcastle etc and you quite possibly have an accent that reflects that origin.
I'm from Hampshire (with no H)

[Carmy]

Likewise, if you ever dared ask a Scot or Welshman where in England they were from...let's just say I hope you've got your running shoes on...

Listen to Peaches!

Please, American writers, even if you haven't been to Britain at least check what the reality is and the terminology. It isn't a small America. For example, if your character is British, she wouldn't carry a pocketbook.

Check this site: http://www.davidappleyard.com/english/britishglossary/H.htm

[ned]

Wow, Carmy, thanks for that link, it's great. Some is a little outdated, I thought, but overall it's fun. Did you know that the U.S. military gives its people a similar list when they get orders for England? Nice of them, I think.

Just thought I'd let other Americans know, at the Historical Fiction Writer's Conference in NY this June (with Bernard Cornwell, no less) there's a section on Americans Writing about Britain. Or England. One of the two. I thought it was a great thing to offer, along with all the regular stuff.


Here's another question for anyone who writes English Historical:

Has anyone got a good slang dictionary for Regency? Or heard of one? I know Tom and Jerry or Life in London has a glossary at the end, but I've never seen more than a few excerpts from it.

For me, writing about the Napoleonic Wars also means Regency, and a huge part of Regency is the language. I'm amazed sometimes to find out that we're still using many of the phrases they invented (like Prime Article, etc.), but some have disappeared along with the things they referred to. I'd really like to get my hands on a good dictionary of these terms, if anyone can help.

[pdr]

Sticky of Resources there are a couple of Regency websites. It's a very popular period thanks to Georgette Heyer.

One of them gives details of a book I have in NZ which covers Regency slang and expressions.

[Captain Scarf]

It's an odd system. The official international name of this fair land is:

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Great Britain = England, Wales (conquered in the 1300s) and Scotland (United with England (Wales was treated as a province of England) under James I.

The Union Flag (Or 'Jack' if you believe the name to be derived from 'Jacabus' (James I of England, VI Scotland) is composed of:

The Cross of St George - Red cross on white background. (England).

The Cross of St Andrew - Diagonal White cross on blue background. (Scotland).

The Cross of St Patrick - Diagonal Red Cross on white background. (Ireland).

Wales is not represented. The Welsh Dragon was not officially recognised until 1959 although was in use before.

[Carmy]

You're welcome, Ned. I check the dictionary often because I've been in North America a while and I forget which word belongs to which country.

If you Google Slang Dictionary, you'll find several listed.

The Rgenecy period also had terminology like "the Ton". Good luck with it. Reading Georgette Heyer would show you some of the ones in use at the time.

[Carmy]

Captain Scarf -- the Red Dragon was on Henry 7th's banner, 1485 - 1509.

[ned]

You're welcome, Ned. I check the dictionary often because I've been in North America a while and I forget which word belongs to which country.

If you Google Slang Dictionary, you'll find several listed.

The Rgenecy period also had terminology like "the Ton". Good luck with it. Reading Georgette Heyer would show you some of the ones in use at the time.


Thanks again, to you and to pdr (doesn't that stand for Physician's Desk Reference?) for the additional resources.

I'm fairly familiar with the usual Georgian/Regency phrases, the kind that show up in most novels set in the period. Bernard Cornwell's novels are a brilliant resource as well, since his research is so impeccable. I just hoped for more of the underworld language, such as those surrounding the practice of stealing bodies for anatomy schools (resurrection men, of course. Dickens mentions them, too, I think.) This is just an example of what I'm hunting for. I'll wander through the pages you both mentioned and see if I can see anything new.

Thanks again,

[PastMidnight]

Ned, have you read Donald Low's The Regency Underworld?

[ned]

Ned, have you read Donald Low's The Regency Underworld?


I got it at a used book store about six months ago, and have read it through three times! It's fabulous. Thanks for bringing it up: anyone who 'does' this period will really enjoy this one.

[ned]

Sticky of Resources there are a couple of Regency websites. It's a very popular period thanks to Georgette Heyer.

One of them gives details of a book I have in NZ which covers Regency slang and expressions.


I'm lost. I really couldn't find it. Can you give me a map??

[ccarver30]

It's the accent.

[ccarver30]

Ooh, I like that site! Horseback riding = pony trekking I LOVE THAT

[Anne Lyle]

Ah, but 'pony-trekking' can't be used interchangeably with 'horseback riding'. Pony-trekking refers to going out for a day's ride, generally with a group of riders and in what passes for wilderness in these crowded isles (e.g. the Brecon Beacons in Wales). The horses are usually smallish and hardy - in other words, ponies - of quiet temperament, suitable for non-expert riders.

If you head down to your local stables for lessons, or go for an hour or so's ride round the local woods and fields, and describe it as 'pony-trekking', you'll get some very funny looks! Non-trekking is usually just referred to as 'riding' - nobody except a townie would bother to add the qualifier 'horse' :)

[pdr]

Americans always say horse back riding. Drives me nuts.

[ccarver30]

Americans always say horse back riding. Drives me nuts.

LOL That's funny.

Bullocks!

[KimberlyInMichigan]

Britain is England, Scotland and Wales. The UK is those three plus Northern Ireland. The Commonwealth countries are not included in the UK.

[scarletpeaches]

Technically it is. "The united kingdom of Great Britain and the Commonwealth."

[akiwiguy]

Likewise, if you ever dared ask a Scot or Welshman where in England they were from...let's just say I hope you've got your running shoes on...;)

Recently I was having a few beers after a round of golf, and my usual English golfing partner was at the table, as was a younger Scottish guy I've ocassionally played with.

Anyway, they got into a bit of light-hearted banter along Nationalistic lines, fun really, involving barbs about Coloden etc, but I definitely noticed an underlying feeling that wasn't altogether so jovial, especially on the part of the Scot.

I could tell that my English friend was a bit irritated later, and he made a sarcastic comment or two after the other was gone. It may not have been typical, but in any event I was quite intrigued as I observed it.

[pdr]

plain rude, when Britain is meant to be a close ally of the US, for Americans not to know that a person from Glasgow is a Scot and one from Cardiff is Welsh. And this lack of any knowledge of the Commonwealth and what it means to a couple of billion people is rather sad.

But it's the same for American knowledge of New Zealand. My company managers' group challenged me last night because I had told them the previous week that at an international formal business meeting it was more polite at the first formal social meeting to talk with the wives about children rather than say 'kids'

They came back to me this week with the following information from a twenty something American who is the JET in one of their daughters' high schools. He told my manager that: 'Everyone uses the word kids. Your teacher is a New Zealander and they have millions of sheep and so they don't like to use the word kid because it means baby sheep.'

I found that rather sad. A JET has to have a Bachelor's degree.

[scarletpeaches]

...light-hearted banter along Nationalistic lines, fun really, involving barbs about Coloden etc, but I definitely noticed an underlying feeling that wasn't altogether so jovial, especially on the part of the Scot.

I could tell that my English friend was a bit irritated later, and he made a sarcastic comment or two after the other was gone...

The Scot was probably irritated at any perceived patronising attitude from the Englishman. It happens a lot. "Our government supports you; you're just hanging on our coat tails." I mean, the English person involved did make some sarcastic comments afterwards as you said, so obviously wasn't above a little sniping himself.

PS: Culloden. ;)

[akiwiguy]

But it's the same for American knowledge of New Zealand.


I've always accepted that a bit because realistically NZ is a pretty small country at the bottom of the globe. It has changed a lot... I've noticed for example that most people on here wouldn't question where I'm from. Twenty years ago I could bet that ninety percent wouldn't have heard of the country (OK, being writers that might not quite be right, but in general).

There's a funny off-shoot of being from a small isolated country... I believe statistically Kiwis are the most travelled people in the world. And I think because of our isolation we're forced to take a reasonable interest in what's happening in the rest of the world. Almost anyone with reasonable intelligence who I know would have some knowledge of, and opinion of, say current politics and events around the globe. It's unavoidable.

And some of those opinions I think are perhaps to some extent biased because of that isolation. I would almost never encounter a Kiwi who would, for example, have a very favourable opinion of certain American foreign policies. But I've often thought that it is quite easy to have some opinions when you're a small country that is pretty much removed from everything. And I've had a view for ages that NZ does have its own looming threat, and a documentary I saw the other night supports that view, that if militants in the Phillipines gain power then NZ (and Australia) is almost certainly going to become a terrorist target.

Our current status so far as US governament is concerned is interesting, as expressed by Bush recently we are a "friend, but not an ally". That all revolves around our anti-nuclear stance that states that vessels carrying nuclear weapons are not allowed in our waters, nor if they refuse to disclose their nuclear capability. And I believe it is now known that when the Greenpeace vessel Rainbow Warrior ws bombed by French operatives in Auckland, US intelligence knew in advance that it was going to happen but withheld the information because of that nuclear policy. So we live in our own odd little world politically down-under.

But in general I've never been surprised that other nationalities don't know a lot about the country, simply because of our size. But I did raise an eyebrow a few years ago when I was chatting to a reasonably intelligent person on the web and mentioned that we have Christmas in summer. When they replied "What, you have Christmas in June?" I nearly fell of my seat. :D

[akiwiguy]

The Scot was probably irritated at any perceived patronising attitude from the Englishman. It happens a lot. "Our government supports you; you're just hanging on our coat tails." I mean, the English person involved did make some sarcastic comments afterwards as you said, so obviously wasn't above a little sniping himself.

PS: Culloden. ;)

Oh yes, I was pretty impartial in my observations... I was simply intrigued and not at all sure what to make of it. Incidentally, intelligent and likeable as the English guy is, he can tend to have a patronising view in other respects. I have seen him explaining to Maoris at our table how "their haka is nice and should be preserved, but the whole thing about compensation for land swiped by the Crown a hundred years ago should be laid to rest..." etc, and I've sat there thinking, "Shit mate, it is a rather more complicated issue than that!"

[scarletpeaches]

Scots as well as other nationalities do tend to feel their hackles rise at old-fashioned colonialism/imperialism. ;)

And I'm like, "The empire's over mate, let it go..." :D

Perhaps your friend offended the Maoris to their face but slagged off the Scot behind his back as the Scot was more likely to do him damage...woe betide someone who crosses a Scot, especially if he's bevvied up. :ROFL:

[akiwiguy]

And I'm like, "The empire's over mate, let it go..." :D


I actually tell him "You're the colony now mate." Just the piss-taking Kiwi sort of humour.

A little anecdote concerning the land issues here...

Around the other side of the mountain is a Maori pa, "Parihaka". I had a book (until I lent it) called "Go Ask That Mountain" about its history which is fascinating. There were two Maori prophets who led their people with a policy of passive-resistance. As land was gradually confiscated, they would all sneak out at night and plough up the settlers' crops etc. Eventually the men were all led away to imprisonment in the South Island.

Anyway, a few years ago the government proposed a one-off payment as settlement for all land. There was then a series of "huis" (meetings) at various marae (meeting places) around the country. And I was allowed to attend the one at Parihaka. I was assured by Maori elders that "this is history in the making, and its almost unheard of for a pakeha (white man) to simply walk in an watch this". Well, it was an eye-opening experience.

After the welcomes etc, where as the elders walk in and you hongi (a kind of spritual pressing together of noses) etc, it commenced with a waiata (song) that was like a spine-tingling chant that reverberated through the whole meeting house, and was eerie, continuing for some minutes.

Then as the debate commenced, it was the first time I've had to understand a whole ocassion purely by body langauge since only Maori was spoken all night. A certain old elder would for example pace around thumping his carved walking stick on the floor, then be challenged and a heated debate would ensue... gradually it became apparent who the real political activists were and so on. But there is a quite exact protocol to everything on marae, and it is quite offensive to breach it. The interesting thing was, that I could fairly well follow the exact nature of what was happening without understanding a word of what was being said, it was so passionate.

Anyway, as with all huis around the country the settlement offer was rejected, but the off shoot of all this was that for the first time in my life I truly realised that night that there were two very distictive cultures in the country. I mean, I'd always just viewed Maori friends as one of the boys, but that night I realised that away from the essentially European life we live, there was a totally different culture that had been native to the country.

[Sassenach]

plain rude, when Britain is meant to be a close ally of the US, for Americans not to know that a person from Glasgow is a Scot and one from Cardiff is Welsh. And this lack of any knowledge of the Commonwealth and what it means to a couple of billion people is rather sad.


Most people tend to be rather provincial and not know much about other countries. Would the average Glaswegian know a person from Raleigh is from North Carolina and a person from Charleston is from South Carolina?

[scarletpeaches]

They would know their nationality, that's for sure, which is what we're talking about.

[Sassenach]

They would know their nationality, that's for sure, which is what we're talking about.

True, my mistake. [But the whole UK/Great Britain/British/British Isles thing is just so complicated!]

[pdr]

I have to say it's most Americans who are provincial or down right xenophobic.

I've lived and worked in many different countries and the norm for most people I've met is a healthy curiosity and interest in the great world outside their own country.

And really, there is nothing unduly difficult about the UK or other European countries and their naming systems. It only takes a little research to get it right, and surely it's better to do that than shout off one's ignorance to the world and upset people at the same time.

[Sassenach]

pdr:

For Christ's sake, get a sense of humor. I lived and worked in other countries myself and think you're full of hot air.

[Inky]

The Scot was probably irritated at any perceived patronising attitude from the Englishman. It happens a lot. "Our government supports you; you're just hanging on our coat tails." I mean, the English person involved did make some sarcastic comments afterwards as you said, so obviously wasn't above a little sniping himself.

PS: Culloden. ;)

Thanks. Was gonna say that..but uh...you know the whole ordeal with me and the stork dropping me off in the wrong country...

Once upon a time, England was omni-potent; they owned everything. It's the WAY they went about this 'ownership' that still burns people to this day. Example: if ever in Scotland and you see sheep grazing....look again. Read up on Highland Clearances....

I need tea. I feel a flounce coming on. Please forgive me. This is why I stick with the humorous threads. I'm too passionate about the wrongs done to entire societies; generations wiped out; languages nearly extinct for the sake of domination; cultures lost...

[Inky]

Scots as well as other nationalities do tend to feel their hackles rise at old-fashioned colonialism/imperialism. ;)

And I'm like, "The empire's over mate, let it go..." :D

Perhaps your friend offended the Maoris to their face but slagged off the Scot behind his back as the Scot was more likely to do him damage...woe betide someone who crosses a Scot, especially if he's bevvied up. :ROFL:
Here here! Sorry. Watched a bit of Parliment while in Scotland the other day...it takes me a week or two to remember I'm a bloody Yank--NOT MY FAULT..IT WAS THAT STORK, MAN, HE JUST HAAAD TO STOP OFF IN CALI....

[Inky]

Wow, Carmy, thanks for that link, it's great. Some is a little outdated, I thought, but overall it's fun. Did you know that the U.S. military gives its people a similar list when they get orders for England? Nice of them, I think.

Just thought I'd let other Americans know, at the Historical Fiction Writer's Conference in NY this June (with Bernard Cornwell, no less) there's a section on Americans Writing about Britain. Or England. One of the two. I thought it was a great thing to offer, along with all the regular stuff.


Here's another question for anyone who writes English Historical:

Has anyone got a good slang dictionary for Regency? Or heard of one? I know Tom and Jerry or Life in London has a glossary at the end, but I've never seen more than a few excerpts from it.

For me, writing about the Napoleonic Wars also means Regency, and a huge part of Regency is the language. I'm amazed sometimes to find out that we're still using many of the phrases they invented (like Prime Article, etc.), but some have disappeared along with the things they referred to. I'd really like to get my hands on a good dictionary of these terms, if anyone can help.

Yeah, even me, as Scotland Hip as I am...in my own writing, I'd said he jumped on the horses backside....go ahead, Peaches....snicker....
Thank Zeus I had a friend in Scotland as one of my 'readers'. With my wicked humor, she thought I'd made the blunder on purpose. When she explained, I laughed and laughed...then deleted the scene--but did use it in a humorous context later.
You see...backside, in Scotland/England, means: arse/ass.
Why would I have the laird jumping on the horses arse? See why the scene had to go?
So, no matter how savvy you are...double check...and then check again.

Oh. Ned. Sorry. Check with Writer's Digest Books. I could have sworn they had a book on the terms/words for that era. If not, check The History Book Club.
I know I've seen what you're looking for. If not those two places, feel free to PM me, and I'll search through my arsenal of notes.

karey

[scarletpeaches]

Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Probably would've been more appropriate if he'd jumped on a sheep's backside...all those lonely Highland winters with no good women to keep him company...

[johnnysannie]

Most people tend to be rather provincial and not know much about other countries. Would the average Glaswegian know a person from Raleigh is from North Carolina and a person from Charleston is from South Carolina?

Please! Far too many AMERICANS wouldn't get that question right! I am often appalled at what a poor grasp of geography some Americans have. Last week, one of my brother's co-workers went to Shreveport (which for those who do not know is in Louisiana) and another co-worker said she had gone to Shreveport, Alabama. When my brother corrected her, the reply was "Well, whatever! Alabama, Louisiana, what's the diff?"

[Inky]

Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Probably would've been more appropriate if he'd jumped on a sheep's backside...all those lonely Highland winters with no good women to keep him company...
Huh. Heard that happens in Montana too, though they're pimped on street corners by cowboys looking to make a quick buck.

You know, Scarlet, I've a wicked feeling you and I....drinking....I've yet to enter a pub....when I'm in Dundee....me thinks you and I shall go gallivanting....stir up the locals....hehehehe

[scarletpeaches]

I fear for the locals if that ever happens, inked. :D

[Inky]

I fear for the locals if that ever happens, inked. :D

Aye, lass, and can ye' picture it if a hapless Scotsman waltzes in...wearin' a kilt? Thar may be no wind in that pub...but I'll just pucker up, bend over & start blowin'....you know....so I can see under the kilt....think they'll know I'm not a local?:D

[scarletpeaches]

They'll know, because a) A Dundonian would wear mirrored toecaps and b) Dundonian men are all mingers anyway. :D

BUT - my dad works in a kilt shop so I could take you in there to get your juices flowing, then we can pop into the registry office and gatecrash a wedding; there's bound to be a kilt or two there...

[Inky]

They'll know, because a) A Dundonian would wear mirrored toecaps and b) Dundonian men are all mingers anyway. :D

BUT - my dad works in a kilt shop so I could take you in there to get your juices flowing, then we can pop into the registry office and gatecrash a wedding; there's bound to be a kilt or two there...

Oooooh! A kilt shop. I'll hold the pins! We caught a wedding at the abby up at Edinburgh Castle--I just made that sound totally crass, not my intent--it was....it was...okay, I cried. And my daughter? Oh, she's been bitten by the Scottish Bug. If he can't wear a kilt, mom, then I can't wear his last name.
Love that girl. They're looking forward to spending all next summer up in the Highlands. We'll be looking for you!

ps
she gets really torked when she hears someone referring to it as a skirt. yep. she's ruined. she'll fit right in.

[Inky]

They'll know, because a) A Dundonian would wear mirrored toecaps and b) Dundonian men are all mingers anyway. :D

BUT - my dad works in a kilt shop so I could take you in there to get your juices flowing, then we can pop into the registry office and gatecrash a wedding; there's bound to be a kilt or two there...

Oh, forgot to tell you: you'll laugh for sure. In Edinburgh, my husband started shopping for a kilt. God help me. He even used the expression: bugger off.
I gasped.
Groaned.
Then burst into major laughter. It was just so wrong. Thank God he said it in private. He was in the middle of practicing a brogue.
I practiced loading my gun.

[Anthony Ravenscroft]

It's all a matter of writing for the audience. A writer who claims to be trying to educate the reader, & who cannot stick to bald fact, should be pilloried. Literally. But a writer who merely wants to whomp out a piece of airport fiction only has to manage verisimilitude -- as-if-real.

To be fair, I don't think the latter ought be labelled "historical fiction" any more than day-old pork should be marked KOSHER FOR PASSOVER.

Remember, this is the nation where perhaps seven times out of ten, if you mention a trip to New Mexico, they'll ask what immunizations are required. Not the shiniest pennies in the fountain.

[Inky]

It's all a matter of writing for the audience. A writer who claims to be trying to educate the reader, & who cannot stick to bald fact, should be pilloried. Literally. But a writer who merely wants to whomp out a piece of airport fiction only has to manage verisimilitude -- as-if-real.

To be fair, I don't think the latter ought be labelled "historical fiction" any more than day-old pork should be marked KOSHER FOR PASSOVER.

Remember, this is the nation where perhaps seven times out of ten, if you mention a trip to New Mexico, they'll ask what immunizations are required. Not the shiniest pennies in the fountain.
Is that your real name? My God! What a GREAT name!!!!
Oh...kinda did the immunization thing, huh? Actually your post proved interesting on several different levels.

[pdr]

Now what is that AW thing about being polite to fellow writers?
Better look it up, Sassenach.

[PastMidnight]

I've been following this thread, but I just wanted to say that I didn't read the initial posts the way that many of you did. I didn't assume that Ned and some of the other earlier posters were making an error by saying 'England,' but rather was really talking about England. When I read books which are written by Americans but set in places other than America, I certainly read more set in England than in Scotland or Wales. Although the caution about using 'Britain' and 'England' interchangably is important, it may have not been warranted here.

Although the ensuing discussion was interesting, the original question is one that sort of got passed over. Can we broaden it to ask about people who write about places that they don't live?

Personally, I haven't written anything set in a country that I haven't lived, but I've certainly had stories set in different cities and parts of the country. However none of it rings true to me until I've at least visited those places and stayed long enough to really get a feel for, not just the setting, but the attitudes. I think that, in my case at least, I tend to take for granted the specific city or part of the country that I live in. It's where I spend every day and begins to seem a bit unexciting as a setting.

[lkp]

Anyone who is writing historical fiction is writing about a place in which they do not live. The past is another country.

[Sassenach]

Now what is that AW thing about being polite to fellow writers?
Better look it up, Sassenach.

It's actually "respect" your fellow writers. I fully respect your right to be humorless.

[Inky]

....looks like a butterfly...stings like a bee....

[Inky]

Anyone who is writing historical fiction is writing about a place in which they do not live. The past is another country.

ooooooooh....I DO like that....keen concept....

[pdr]

Dear me. Even ruder.
Perhaps for the benefit of us all you could point out your stunningly humourous comments, which you claim I have failed to appreciate.

Or perhaps you could be honest and simply admit that you were rude because I made negative comments about Americans.

[Inky]

...on a board started in America no less. Wow. What a concept.

[poetinahat]

Dear me. Even ruder.
Perhaps for the benefit of us all you could point out your stunningly humourous comments, which you claim I have failed to appreciate.

Or perhaps you could be honest and simply admit that you were rude because I made negative comments about Americans.
Negative, and overly extremely general:

"Most Americans are provincial" -- maybe, but, well, does that really set them all that far apart from most others?
"or downright xenophobic" -- Um, that doesn't sit well, not at all.

In any case, broad generalisations -- the negative ones, at least -- are bound to rankle.

[Inky]

Now wait just a bloody moment! I had to look up Xenophobic because even in the blue-blood high snobbery society I was born into, it's not a word one uses every day over tea.
We just simply call it what it is and save the fancy words for riff raff attempting culture: racist. Doesn't matter how you dress it up.

If you're going to jump on an American started board, regardless of how worldly its members, regardless how many thousands tune in and participate from around the world (which says waaaay much for Jenna & Mac--you go girls), you should practice that which you accuse others of not possessing: cooth.

Xenophobe...who says that anyway?

As for the dirty accusation that we hate foreigners....um....in light of recent history, it's not so much a hate issue as to being more of a terrified issue.

Excuse me while I go study up on more culture before I insult....oh..why yes...I will take a side of guinee...oooh AND it comes with tea...

Oh....and so we're REAL savvy, I'm an Aussie/Brit/Scots/German/American, so you've insulted me five times over.

If you find Americans so beneath you, then get the fuck out of our waters!

[Cassiopeia]

*comes into the thread, blinks* Did TIO get relocated? Wow. Well, I can certainly see where inked is coming from...being an American myself.

I think I am going to have to comment.

Let's see, slanderous things have been said about me and my countrymen. Hmm, first *thinks where to begin* Oh yes,

pdr...have you been the United States? Have you looked at a map of it recently? You do realize how massive this country is right? We have fifty states to contend with and learning about all of them boggles the mind. On top of that you want us to memorize the entire rest of the world? :D

I will admit that some Americans while traveling abroad aren't necessarily the best representation of our country and it's values and assets but then that can be said of any citizen from any country on this planet. I cringe when I see them in their little safari outfits at the Johannesburg airport bellowing out things and being rude, :mad: but have you ever noticed it is the obnoxious ones who get all the attention while the polite helpful ones such as myself are helping an elderly woman to get her luggage off the baggage claims platform? *just a personal moment for me, excuse me while I reminisce.* ;) Comes back to the discussion...okay so where was I? Ah..okay---

Now, I, for one have lived overseas in South Africa off and on for the last ten years. I have traveled quite often to London. I have been to Amsterdam. I have lived in Hawaii and though it is the US technically it is a culture all of it's own. Heck, I am from South Dakota originally, lived in a few different states and I can promise you, I don't understand a Texan any better than I do someone from India. :Huh: This country is so vast that there is no way you can say Americans are....*fill in the blank* Because as sure as :guns: shooting you are gonna be wrong about it.

With all of my experiences in traveling and I have met people from just about every walk of life while studying at the University of Cape Town and I would never deign to make such a sweeping statement as you just did. :eek:

Do I think Americans aren't as clued up as the rest of the world on other countries? :Shrug: Yes, some are not as clued up but some would put anyone to shame with their knowledge and understanding of the world's various cultures.

Do I think the rest of the world knows more about us than we do them...uh yeah..:Lecture: about that..OH HECK NO! I have had numerous conversations with people in other countries who are shocked to find out that what they "thought" they knew about the US, they don't know.

I have found some exception to that. :snoopy: In particular a history teacher from the UK I know actually understands and can talk to me knowledgeably about the constitution of the United States without bias or ranker and I can only say it is a pleasure.

You might want to contemplate that :poke: pointing a finger at Americans and accusing us of Xenophobia is a bit telling and projecting. We are an amiable lot and God love us, we don't mean any harm. Well most of us that is. So before you go alienating the members of this forum who ARE Americans, you might want to save the American-bashing for some place else.

With all due respect,:( it just is down right rude to be talking like that when it is an American who pays for this server and the forum and gives you the opportunity to learn. Not to mention the vast number of excellent people who willingly on a day to day basis offer you support and help. It is just bad form.

And on one final note...this isn't to mean you are a bad person...you just made a bad choice in posting like that. ;)

[akiwiguy]

I've always felt that I'm like every other person of any other race or nationality... I'm somewhere on a continuum of ignorance of other people groups. There are so many factors that influence, often distort our perceptions. Do I seriously think that if I visited a small Southern town I'd be rogered by a bunch of banjo-wielding hicks. No, but on the other hand it is odd how images endure, be it from fiction, biased news coverage, whatever.

I've had in the back of my mind over the last couple of days something related to a post I made somewhere up there describing my own feeling, that it was not until I was into my thirties that I even began to grasp the fact that there is a whole other, Maori, culture that is in reality totally distinct from my own. I'd really just thought that Maori had somehow assimilated into a European culture, end of story. Now, to be blunt it's an example of straight out "institutionalised" racism. That doesn't make me feel that I'm a particularly bad person, it simply means that, along with umptey-dozen other and often more subtle influences, it's rather difficult to have an accurate perception of some things when even the history taught to you as a child was by and large... crap.

Now I'm talking here about ignorance about my own province of a hundred and something thousand, in a country of only four million! If I've spent half my life in a fog concerning that one, then how wrong might I be about some of my other assumptions?

The point I'm trying to make is that I doubt that this is very different in most countries. And we all have a choice as to the degree we'll try and free ourselves from that ignorance. The idea that, say, Americans are more xenophobic, or racist, or whatever doesn't rest comfortably with me when I can look at enough examples right on my own doorstep. Part of the human condition isn't it?

Oh, a final disclaimer: All of my relationships with sheep are of an entirely platonic nature.

[scarletpeaches]

Negative, and overly extremely general:

"Most Americans are provincial" -- maybe, but, well, does that really set them all that far apart from most others?
"or downright xenophobic" -- Um, that doesn't sit well, not at all.

In any case, broad generalisations -- the negative ones, at least -- are bound to rankle.

But you had the good sense to Aussiefy yourself.

Nichola, got a thing for men from Oz. :D

[Rolling Thunder]

The perception that most Americans are xenophobic is based on what the various medias choose to report, coloring the attitude to a narrow degree. We're a nation of immigrants, from all over the world, and the typical pastime of average Americans is discussing their roots.

For instance, my conception of New Zealanders and Brits are based on what I see on TV. Let's face it, that's where most people get their initial information. Right or wrong.

[Inky]

RT:
New Zealanders are those gorgeous, hysterically warped/funny group of talented people that transformed themselves into Orcs. And love to bash their forehead against yours. It's a greeting. If you're bashed, you're in. Bring Motrin.

Brits have great tea.

Scots have shortbread.

*tries to keep straight face, fails. Runs...laughing hysterically from Akiwiguy, Scarlet, and BM....*

[scarletpeaches]

And the water of life! Don't forget the water of life!

[Inky]

And the water of life! Don't forget the water of life!
Aye. What the bloody hell was I thinkin'? The water of life. And kilts. Delicious men in kilts. Makes me homesick...er...for the water, man, swear...the water!

[akiwiguy]

Delicious men in kilts. Makes me homesick...er...for the water, man, swear...the water!


Irish woman for me, I tell ya, that accent. Except I hasten to add when they are one of the most beautiful women on God's earth and happen to be your family doctor, which actually was the case for me a few years back. Amazing how it was so NOT like my wildest medical probing roleplay fantasies. More like a desperate scramble in my mind, "think of something disgusting... having it off with our Prime Minister... oh jeeez, even that's not working... think, think...".

I mean to say, "Take off your clothes and jump up on the bed" in an Irish accent? Pheeew!

[Inky]

I had that problem recently with an OBGYN. At the last minute, they switched doctors on me--I'm talking LAST MINUTE...like..sitting in the room, wrapped in paper-towel, last minute.
Got a visual?
Good.
In walks Adonis.
"Unless you're about to provide dinner and a movie, these legs aren't opening, little doctor man, OUT!"

He laughed. Tried to reassure me. I told him the only way this would continue was if he were naked too. The assistant blushed.
The doctor left.
Chicken shit.

Ah well. Can't seem to get anyone in here anymore...

[Inky]

Glad to have been of service.

[Cassiopeia]

To this one can only say that "One is always happy to be of service."

[Inky]

Come on, Cass, sing it with me:

Oh I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Weeeeeiner,
For that is what I'd truly like to be,
'Cause if I were on Oscar Meyer Weeeeiner,
then everyone would be in love with me!

ONE MORE TIME...

:banana: :Jump: :banana: :Guitar: :Guitar: :PartySmil :PartySmil

[Cassiopeia]

Sings with Inked!

Oh I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Weeeeeiner,
For that is what I'd truly like to be,
'Cause if I were on Oscar Meyer Weeeeiner,
then everyone would be in love with me!


You mean they aren't already? :D

[Inky]

:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

Wonder how many others will sing our 'kumbaya song'?

[Anthony Ravenscroft]

The United States has -- according to the Fair & Balanced Non-Liberal Media, at least -- spent the past 6 years standing arm-in-arm except for a few disloyal voices such as mine.

Therefore, I'd contend that saying "all Americans are seen around the world as closed-minded xenophobic dolts" (a) is perfectly in keeping with what the Righties have been claiming & (b) is perfectly in keeping with what us few Lefties have been saying.

[Cassiopeia]

The United States has -- according to the Fair & Balanced Non-Liberal Media, at least -- spent the past 6 years standing arm-in-arm except for a few disloyal voices such as mine.

Therefore, I'd contend that saying "all Americans are seen around the world as closed-minded xenophobic dolts" (a) is perfectly in keeping with what the Righties have been claiming & (b) is perfectly in keeping with what us few Lefties have been saying.Now there's a shock.

[poetinahat]

The United States has -- according to the Fair & Balanced Non-Liberal Media, at least -- spent the past 6 years standing arm-in-arm except for a few disloyal voices such as mine.

Therefore, I'd contend that saying "all Americans are seen around the world as closed-minded xenophobic dolts" (a) is perfectly in keeping with what the Righties have been claiming & (b) is perfectly in keeping with what us few Lefties have been saying.
The operative phrase being "seen as".

[Parkinsonsd]

I think there's some validity to the statement that Americans are seen as xenophobic. I also think there's some validity to the statement that Americans are xenophobic, especially lately.

Mostly right now we are scared of foreign terrorists coming in and bombing us, we're scared of foreign workers coming in and stealing jobs, we're scared of foreign people coming in and trying to change the "American way of life", trying to change the language we speak and whatever other values we believe are important.

Not all Americans, and not to the extreme portrayed, but we do have these concerns. Whether they are valid fears on our part is something else entirely.

[Manat]

Anyone who is writing historical fiction is writing about a place in which they do not live. The past is another country.


I think this is an important point to what was a very interesting question. I live in Canada, and have written two historicals. One takes place in London, Paris, Cornwall, the Mediterranean, Algiers, and other North African locales. The other is centered in London and the Highlands. My main character and a secondary character in the first book (available from Medallion in 2008) are both French mercenaries. I was fortunate enought to visit Paris, London and Ireland, but I've never had the pleasure of sailing the Barbary Coast.

I went to Paris after I had written about the city in my book, and seeing Versailles and Le Cafe Procope and other places I had described through research, brought them to life for me for in a wonderful way that I am sure will help me with other books, but I have to say that I was relieved to find that the Paris and London I described through research and imagination were very much as I had envisioned them, and when I got home I didn't change a word.

I think visiting a locale in person can certainly be a great help, but you can't visit the past, and depending on which era you're writing about the place you visit today may have little in common with the place you're writing about then. To give an example, how different physically is the London I saw, from the one I write about prior to the great fire in the reign of Charles II?

One of the things I like to do is read first hand accounts of the places and times I'm writing about if I can find them. The diaries of Evelyn and Pepys, a wonderful book of letters home from young gentlemen on the Grand Tour etc. I found a great book (nonfiction) that has an 18th century German visitor to London describing the marvels of the city. He's obviouly breathless and awestruck and I figure that his account is as close as I might get to being there myself.

I think, despite the little bit of griping that goes on at times, Americans, Scotts, Irish, Welsh, Canadians, Aussies etc. all share significant cultural roots and share a common language. We also share many common traditions and forms in myth and story telling and it's not a big surprise that many of us reach back into those roots to tell our stories. As a Canadian from Quebec there is also a strong connection to France for me. When I write stories that happen in these countries and places I am reasonably comfortable that with sufficient research I can place myself, my characters, and hopefully my readers there.

Writing about the Algerian corsairs and the wars in North Africa was very different. Despite my research I did not feel culturally atuned in a way that would let me write from the perspective of a Muslim character and I wrote from the persepective of my Europeans, as strangers in a strange land.

[Augie March]

I found a great book (nonfiction) that has an 18th century German visitor to London describing the marvels of the city. He's obviouly breathless and awestruck and I figure that his account is as close as I might get to being there myself.

This sounds really interesting, Manat. What was the name of the book?

[Manat]

This sounds really interesting, Manat. What was the name of the book?

That particular book might be a little hard to find. I was lucky enough to come across it in a used bookstore. It's called European Society in the Eighteenth Century, edited by Robert and Elborg Forster, published by Harper and Row, 1969. It looks at social history (mainly of England and France, though Germany, Italy and Russia are there as well) though documents organized by theme such as travel, guilds, agriculture, aristocracy etc. The documents include contemporary letters, essays, diaries and journals marriage contracts and negotiations and wills etc. It's really a fascinating read.

If you're interested and can't find it anywhere you might want to try alibris used books. I've found some great things there, including a 400 year old account of the Earl of Rochester's deathbed conversations with the cleric Burnet, written by Burnet. It wasn't cheap but what a treasure!

Almost forgot, welcome to the group!

[Augie March]

That particular book might be a little hard to find. I was lucky enough to come across it in a used bookstore. It's called European Society in the Eighteenth Century, edited by Robert and Elborg Forster, published by Harper and Row, 1969. It looks at social history (mainly of England and France, though Germany, Italy and Russia are there as well) though documents organized by theme such as travel, guilds, agriculture, aristocracy etc. The documents include contemporary letters, essays, diaries and journals marriage contracts and negotiations and wills etc. It's really a fascinating read.

If you're interested and can't find it anywhere you might want to try alibris used books. I've found some great things there, including a 400 year old account of the Earl of Rochester's deathbed conversations with the cleric Burnet, written by Burnet. It wasn't cheap but what a treasure!

Almost forgot, welcome to the group!

Thanks for that, very interesting. I've managed to track some copies down on Amazon used and new (thank heavens for the internet) so I look forward to getting it delivered.

The Burnet sounds very interesting. I've read parts of Rochester's conversations in Graham Greene's "Lord Rochester's Monkey" but the full text must be a real treasure.

Oh, and cheers for the welcome! :)