Publish or money?

sambo · Apr 22, 2007

why am i doing this, this writing thing? what are my goals? well, certainly for me, i want to share my unique vision of the world as well as i can with others. if you read my story to its end, then a good part of my task has been successful. many stories, even some from this thread as published in 'famous' outlets, i can not finish. they seem so pointless, crude, empty and trite. what makes these stories 'publishable' seems about as pertinent a question as why people listened to imus-there must be money somewhere i can't see changing hands and values i don't understand at work. certainly i do not see art or very much craft. perhaps they are published only to amuse the masses; e.g. video of cho, again and again. of course, my concept of 'art or craft' may be erroneous or juvenile; maybe so.

well, to the point. i think i can get some acceptances in various online magazines which pay no money. some fiction, some non-fiction, travel stuff, adventure, blahblah. but i want some money for my creative work because somehow i think that is a higher level of 'reward' for my effort and a greater measure of value. i may have it all twisted up in my head. so what are your thoughts?

do you seek money for publications or is your goal simply to get published, period? i know i want recognition, of that no doubt. i appreciate any responses. i am new to this board. thanks for your time.

eric11210 · Apr 22, 2007

I try to seek money. Not because I'm looking to make a living from it, but I feel like the places that don't pay for your work tend to be less prestigious. I don't care how much I get for my work. It could be five dollars, but being able to say I sold a story, that someone paid money for a story I wrote is what makes it feel like I accomplished something.

Eric

infinitus_kaze · Apr 22, 2007

I'm into writing for the purpose of making money. I am a Music major and a creative writing minor at the University of Wyoming and my goal in life is to make enough money from my writing career and music career to live a comfortable life where I can be my own boss and make a living doing it. I want to write, sing, and teach voice lessons for a living. I want to do what I love in life and get paid doing it instead of working a job I detest.

That is my ultimate goal, but until that happens I will work wherever I must for as long as I must. I have another dream to start my own charity foundation, but that is a farfetched dream that can never come to fruition unless I become some millionaire author like Steven King or J.K. Rowling, which I doubt will happen (though no one knows what the future will bring). My dream charity would cost an incredibly large amount of money to set up and keep running.

Anya Smith · Apr 22, 2007

Simply because it's so difficult to break into print, I've submitted to ezines that don't pay or pay only $5-10. The truth is, I want to be paid, the more the better if only because it means success. But deep down what I want is to insure that I'll have a readership for as long as I can write. I have so many books planned and I don't want them to gather mold on my hardrive. I want this so much and willing to work hard to achieve it. All I need now is a little luck.

The Lady · Apr 23, 2007

Both. I'm with you on the pointless, empty and trite stuff you referenced, but then others may not get your work either. There's no harm starting with the small mags and working your way up to something bigger.

writeperch · Apr 23, 2007

There's no harm in submitting first to the top markets. Why wouldn't you submit to the top first? If they buy it ... woohoo!! If not, keep submitting. If you start at the top and work your way down you'll eventually hit those smaller paying markets. Writers who are consistently published have some stories that are bounced over 20 or 30 times before finding a home. And most of them will not settle for a no-pay market. Even if it's their 32nd submission of the story, they're still sending it to paying markets. One professional just sold a story after 31 rejections to a paying market that publishes stuff about card games. His story had a very small bit in it about playing cards. He got 8 cents a word. If you do your research, you'll have no problem sending out your story to its 40th market that still pays decent money. Here's the key to publishing:

1. Write.

2. Submit UNTIL IT SELLS.

3. Repeat.

Kate Thornton · Apr 23, 2007

Money first - I submit to the top markets I think are right for my work. Then I sort of work down.

The only time I don't follow this is when an editor of a small ezine (someone I know - I know several!) asks nice for a freebie. Then I send a reprint or something I have written specifically for them. I do this for a couple of flash venues, one mystery venue and a sci fi zine. I know the editors personally and helped them get started. It's not about the $$ 100% of the time.

But if you wanna be a pro, you need to get paid. That means sending your work (your best work - don't expect to get paid if you haven't done your best) to the markets you think (from their guidelines and sample issues) are the best bets for that particular story. Then turn rejected stories around and send them out to the next venue on your list. Do it until you get a contract & a check.

Momento Mori · Apr 23, 2007

I'm with pretty much everyone else here - money first, then publication credit. I'm working on a novel (aren't we all

) but use short fiction to hone my skills. I've been lucky in that 2 of the 3 rejections for my short stories this year have been personalised, enabling me to take a look at them in a new light and revise before sending to the next on my list.

I enjoy writing short stories and whilst I know that I'm never going to get rich from them (and to date, I'm still to sell one), I know that getting them published in respected outlets will give me vital credits for when I get my novel finished.

MM

Jamesaritchie · Apr 23, 2007

Money

Why do so many think money or publication? They should be the same thing. Unique vision be damned. Who cares about a unique vision? "Unique" alone does not mean something is worth reading, or worth paying for. If you have something to say worth saying, someone should be willing to pay for it.

I would suggest that you capitalize "I," and the first word in each sentence, even when posting on a forum. You never know who might be reading your post, especially on a writer's forum, and a writer gets taken just about as seriously as his use of proper grammar and punctuation.

Toothpaste · Apr 23, 2007

Somehow sometimes people think that if they are getting paid for something they feel passionate about that they are selling out. I look at it the other way. This is something I am passionate about. This is something I have worked darn hard for. This is something I am good at. I deserve to be paid for it.

johnnysannie · Apr 23, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
Why do so many think money or publication? They should be the same thing. Unique vision be damned. Who cares about a unique vision? "Unique" alone does not mean something is worth reading, or worth paying for. If you have something to say worth saying, someone should be willing to pay for it.

QUOTE]

Yes, yes, yes. I write for a living so of course I want money! This seems like just another slant on the old "write for free" type discussions that usually get so heated but art never paid the bills - writing does!

WildScribe · Apr 23, 2007

If I don't get paid, I don't eat. But I write because I love it. I've never had a better job. Now stop distracting me! I have some articles to finish so I can afford dinner!

johnrobison · Apr 23, 2007

One of my dreams has always been to support myself from creative work. Writing and photography are two paths to that, and if I can attain my goal via royalties from my writing, that's great.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 23, 2007

Art

johnnysannie said:
Jamesaritchie said:

Why do so many think money or publication? They should be the same thing. Unique vision be damned. Who cares about a unique vision? "Unique" alone does not mean something is worth reading, or worth paying for. If you have something to say worth saying, someone should be willing to pay for it.

QUOTE]

Yes, yes, yes. I write for a living so of course I want money! This seems like just another slant on the old "write for free" type discussions that usually get so heated but art never paid the bills - writing does!

Click to expand...

Exactly.

kg_crow · Apr 24, 2007

I've seen my name in print very often and it's nice, indeed. But the mark of a professional is the paycheck. We may have different goals for our work, (ego gratification, satisfying hobby, etc), so there's no one correct answer. Writing, it seems to me, is much like rock music: few make it to the very top. The happiest writers are those who love to write, find pleasure in the process and in improving along the way.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 25, 2007

kg_crow said:
The happiest writers are those who love to write, find pleasure in the process and in improving along the way.

I love to write, I find pleasure in writing, and I love improving. But I also want to be paid. No matter why a writer writes, he's still worthy of his hire, and there is no justification for someone who publishes a writer to not pay that writer. Writers who think it's fine not to be paid are fooling themselves. Whether they mind or not, they are being taken advantage of, they aren't going to be read enough to matter, and won't be taken seriously.

Even websites that say they can't pay writers mysteriously find ways to pay their ISP, to pay website hosts, to pay their electric bills, to buy computers, etc. But when it comes to the writers who actually fill the magazine, they suddenly run out of money.

popmuze · Apr 25, 2007

I am of the opinion that it's all these writers who are willing to write for free or for next to nothing who harm the cause of every other writer who
refuses to do so.

The fact that advances for books have not on average gone up since I started (way back before Al Gore invented the internet) is a testament to the hordes of hungry writers willing to accept almost nothing just to see their stuff in print.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 25, 2007

Money

popmuze said:
I am of the opinion that it's all these writers who are willing to write for free or for next to nothing who harm the cause of every other writer who
refuses to do so.

The fact that advances for books have not on average gone up since I started (way back before Al Gore invented the internet) is a testament to the hordes of hungry writers willing to accept almost nothing just to see their stuff in print.

We definitely agree on this. Such writers are being used, pure and simple, but they're so blinded by the possibility of being published that they don't see it, or just don't care.

blacbird · Apr 25, 2007

As neither of these options lies within my sphere of possibilities . . .

caw

scottVee · Apr 26, 2007

Hi. Some interesting coverage of the topic here. Oddly I'm at a point where after some 400 items printed in publications of all shapes & sizes, it's just a drag. I was hoping it would have led to more than this after 20 years, but on a good day it's no different from a local band who has been playing clubs forever and just never hit the "big time" (by whatever definition).

It's a bit disappointing to be under constant financial pressure, so that anything that doesn't pay the bills is relegated to a "dirty little habit" category.

But it's one of those things I do, and a spare $5 or $20 or (rarely) $100 comes across as a random bonus. So it's hard to complain.

Expecting writers to stop working for free is nonsense. Companies latch onto cheap labor to turn out cheap products for people who want things cheap. Compare the demand (from consumers) for cheapness with the demand (from stockholders) for profits, and you get a system with a lot of heads getting chopped. All we can do is focus on the readers we can find, and take our best shot at entertaining them.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 26, 2007

scottVee said:
Expecting writers to stop working for free is nonsense. Companies latch onto cheap labor to turn out cheap products for people who want things cheap. Compare the demand (from consumers) for cheapness with the demand (from stockholders) for profits, and you get a system with a lot of heads getting chopped. All we can do is focus on the readers we can find, and take our best shot at entertaining them.

Writing for free isn't cheap labor, it's slave labor. I don't know any company anywhere, of any type, that doesn't pay employees something. No sane person is going to work any job for free. Minimum wage means everyone must be paid something for their time, stockholders and consumer demand be hanged, but even before minimum wage, workers demanded some pay.

When you expect nothing, when you're willing to work for nothing, then nothing is exactly what you get and what you deserve. When you expect very little, when you're willing to work for very little, then very little is what you receive and deserve. Darn few writers who write for nothing, or for peanuts, ever reach the point where they don't have to write for nothing, or for peanuts.

I know many writers will continue to write for free, or for pitifully tiny amounts, but this doesn't make it right, it doesn't make it smart, and it does hurt all writers everywhere.

The only reason writers have to write for free is because so many are willing to write for free. Too many have bought into the silly promise of "exposure." They forget that exposure works both ways. You can be exposed as something good and worthwhile, or as something not worth your pay. You can be exposed as one of the best, or as one of the worst.

And one thing I learned about companies and stockholders long ago is that they believe quality and money go hand in hand when they're hiring, even if not when they're selling. The best way to land a good writing gig with a large company is often to ask for more than your competition, not less.

Writers usually receive just about as much value as they place on themselves, and far too many writers do not understand that pay is almost always negotiable. An editor usually offers ten bucks because he's pretty sure most writers will just take it and run, which they usually do, not because he can't afford or is unwilling to pay twenty.

Hollywood handled this issue long ago, and it's worked very well. Various writing groups have been trying to handle it with magazines and book publishers for years, and have made many inroads, had many successes, but the effort is undercut by those writers who think they don't deserve more money, or who think, "Oh, I'm being published. How wonderful!"

WildScribe · Apr 26, 2007

scottVee said:
Expecting writers to stop working for free is nonsense. Companies latch onto cheap labor to turn out cheap products for people who want things cheap. Compare the demand (from consumers) for cheapness with the demand (from stockholders) for profits, and you get a system with a lot of heads getting chopped. All we can do is focus on the readers we can find, and take our best shot at entertaining them.

I think I just nearly choked to death on those words. YOU are the reason that it is harder and harder to find great gigs. But guess what? I make at least $300 a week doing content writing despite that. I make way more when I land magazine gigs, which is about monthly, and I NEVER work for free.

I do this full time, for the pay as much as for the love of the words. For goodness sakes, will you STOP ruining it for writers who actually do this as a job?

eric11210 · Apr 26, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
Writing for free isn't cheap labor, it's slave labor. I don't know any company anywhere, of any type, that doesn't pay employees something. No sane person is going to work any job for free.

Interns? Plenty of people work for free in exchange for getting their foot in the door. I think the writers who work for free feel the same way.

Personally, I have yet to submit to a totally unpaid market. I'm willing to submit to markets that make a token payment, but I'm not willing to submit to the totally unpaid ones. I feel like I'd like to be paid because I want to be able to say, yes, I have this number of paid publications. . .

However, I do understand those who write for free. I just don't feel like the completely free writing thing is going to get me anywhere when I try for higher paid jobs. . .

Eric

johnnysannie · Apr 26, 2007

WildScribe said:
I think I just nearly choked to death on those words. YOU are the reason that it is harder and harder to find great gigs. But guess what? I make at least $300 a week doing content writing despite that. I make way more when I land magazine gigs, which is about monthly, and I NEVER work for free.

I do this full time, for the pay as much as for the love of the words. For goodness sakes, will you STOP ruining it for writers who actually do this as a job?

I'm choking right along with you, Wildscribe. I second your motion and hope it makes some difference. Writing is my full time job too and I don't like the work-for-free folk who want to take bread out of my mouth and money out of my bank account!!!!!!

WildScribe · Apr 26, 2007

Writing "internship" is essentially making the rounds of the cheap-assed pubs that only pay a couple of cents a word. But your goal, as with any intern, should always be UP UP UP! I do not settle for crap payments for content anymore, and I am starting to move into slightly better paying paper markets as well. Having your name out there is really not worth your time unless you are compensated.

Publish or money?

sambo

eric11210

infinitus_kaze

Brutally honest...to a fault

Anya Smith

House Dragon

The Lady

Critical Member

writeperch

just write

Kate Thornton

Still Happy to be Here. Or Anywhere

Momento Mori

Tired and Disillusioned

Jamesaritchie

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

johnnysannie

WildScribe

Slave to the Wordcount

johnrobison

A Free Range Aspergian

Jamesaritchie

kg_crow

Please hold your applause

Jamesaritchie

popmuze

Last of a Dying Breed

Jamesaritchie

blacbird

scottVee

Jamesaritchie

WildScribe

Slave to the Wordcount

eric11210

johnnysannie

WildScribe

Slave to the Wordcount