the credd dant challenge

kborsden

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A cerdd dant is a traditional Welsh musical-poetic form. It is written in countermelody to the music and reads/sings poetic verse using vocal stresses within the unstressed notes of the music; normally harp music; the language Welsh; usually improv, but if anyone's interested, we'll do it pre-designed in English to any classical instrument.

Any musicians and/or poets out there wanting to put their hand to it?

Step forward.
 
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A. Hamilton

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That's you there, when you were little. singing. right??
:D
It's an intriguing form.
SO, the challenge would be to put words to an exsisting piece of music (in the way decribed?)?
I do this often in my head to classical pieces, but haven't given a lot of thought to the stresses, nor have I written anything down.
But I could give it a go..I'm just a slow producer so hopefully there wil be others meantime.
 

kborsden

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I was thinking we'd write the whole thing on our own, even the classical musical base to be played by a sole instrument.
 
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ddgryphon

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Count me in--I'll have to do some research of my own to see if I actually understand the form--but it sounds just like my kind of thing.
 

A. Hamilton

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Ohh, well it's a great challenge. I haven't written music in a long time and barely at that. I'll be watching, but doubt I'll jump in. (I'm such a wuss)
You could also post the challenge (or link to it) over in Songwriting.
 

ddgryphon

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My understanding it that it is done over an air or simple melody (Think Greensleeves). If I am to understand it correctly it is meant to act as a counter-melody, setting its accents off from the accented portions of the melody.

Do I understand it correctly?
 

Writer???

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For those not musically inclined but perhaps might like to join in:

The unaccented part of music are the upbeats.

If a piece of music is in 4/4 time there are 4 "beats" to a measure. 1 2 3 4
In between those down beats (think of foot tapping floor 1 2 3 4), are the up beats when you "lift" your foot again. (Think 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and) the ands, in this case, would be the up beats, or unaccented portions of the music.

If it helps think: 1 I 2 want 3 to 4 say 1 I 2 love 3 you, or, tap I tap want tap to tap say...etc.

Then of course there are pauses in the vocals where just the music would play, but the thing to remember is, that when there is a vocal sound, it comes on the up beat or series of up beats.

This is a simplistic explanation. What they are attempting is far too difficult for me. I hope I haven't wasted anyone's time.
 

ddgryphon

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I can provide a sound file of a simple air--should we use something known and public domain? Or should I write something for this to start us off and have us each give a go. If I do that I'll do AABA something say 32 measures long to work with--I'm talking a strumed or repeated bass pattern under a very simple melody.

Would that be sufficient?
 

kborsden

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That would be great to start with (something simple you write, I mean), we can always change it later if we can't fit poetic lyrics to it.

Great stuff!
 
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ddgryphon

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I've started something and want to get a feel for it's suitability:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=69398


It is called Air, and it is the song at the top of the list--again, this is a first shot--and very incomplete--just the first A, you can hear it cadence and start a B section, but I decided to see if the idea of what I'm doing is suitable. I need to listen to that video again I think and pay close attention to the Harp.

My initial thoughts are that the bass line is overly busy--I can fix that easily enough when I get home tonight.

Something happened and I ended up stuck at home a bit longer than expected. Try Air #3, it is my second attempt, it is only an partial section, but I need thoughts on tempo and meter (is 3/4 or 4/4 better for this? Do we want to try a slightly off-beat 5/4 or 7/4 meter?) I'm new to this bit, so any suggestions will be helpful.

All right, that's it for now: There's an Air #4 to listen to as well. Please give all three a listen and see if you think any are useful or if I'm completely off track. The Air #4 is in 5/4--I had to see what it would sound like as soon as I said it.

Anyway--I'm late and must be going.
 
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kborsden

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Are we writing an elemental piece, with air as the theme?

Could be a good idea...

Air#3 is the best, a little slower so that the vocals can be dragged or stressed with more refinement and I think we've got a great start.

As for the lyrical content, I'm in two minds of how to write them,
the traditional form would be cynghanedd;

using stress, alliteration and internal rhyme in pre-designated order, there are 4 types:

(1) groes -- All consonants which appear in the first line are repeated in the following line in the exact same order using the structure A/A for the first two lines and continuing to B/B in the following and so forth. No rhyme.​

e.g.
money or passion/ many are pissing

(2) draws -- the same as above but only a few consanents are repeated depending on how the second line is intended to read and with what words. No rhyme.​

(3) sain -- has three sections; the first and second sections rhyme; the consonants of the second section are repeated in the third section.​

e.g
of all my fame/throughout my shame/the rought mishampered man

(4) lusg -- first accented syllable in the line rhymes with the second-to-last syllable of the line, this is a singular section form, each following line is a new section.​

e.g.
wonder of you as I ponder


The syllable count and line length is decided by the melody.



Less traditionally we could create our own form to fit the piece using the vast array of devices available or even combine the traditional forms/styles into one.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would like some feedback on this.

Maybe we should get Tessa involved, man, that girl can be our voice, and God knows she's got a great one!


;)
 
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ddgryphon

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Okay, I'll work out the 2nd one a little slower and complete the various sections so that it fills 32 bars.

As for format, we may have to devise our own, along with everything else, I don't know how complex I can stand to get with rhymes and such.
 

ddgryphon

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Kie:

It is called air, becuase that is the type of piece it is: Ayre/Air/Aire as in Londenderry Aire
 

kborsden

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I hear you, loud and clear.

That's what I was thinking at any rate. Maybe a modern take on the traditional, leaning to it but also away; just hints of the traditional format.

What do you think?

That's a bridge we'll have to decide to cross eventually.
 

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I'm musically illiterate, practically, and might aswell wear the dunce hat when it comes to it. I'll give you all the help I can as to how things sound to my ear, but, unfortunately, without technical jargon.

But the lyrical side of things should come more naturally to me...

What about a theme/concept/story? Any ideas?
 

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I'm way too tired to think meters and stuff right now, but this seems like a great project guys. Love what you're doing. As for the air -I felt the first one was best suited for the task because it's the simplest melody. The others were very pretty, but felt too complete in their own right. It would be hard to put a voice there without having to conform to the melodies already present. There just isn't very much room to play in.

If that makes any sense, I really need my bed now. ^o^

Night.
 

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I hear you, loud and clear.

That's what I was thinking at any rate. Maybe a modern take on the traditional, leaning to it but also away; just hints of the traditional format.

What do you think?

That's a bridge we'll have to decide to cross eventually.

I think that's the way to go.
 

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I'm musically illiterate, practically, and might aswell wear the dunce hat when it comes to it. I'll give you all the help I can as to how things sound to my ear, but, unfortunately, without technical jargon.

But the lyrical side of things should come more naturally to me...

What about a theme/concept/story? Any ideas?

My internet research didn't turn up any specific themes related to the Cerdd Dant--what are your thoughts in that arena?

Since it seems so Pastoral, would nature, in some way, be a fitting theme? Man and nature, appreciation of nature. Should it be something particularly Welsh--which I couldn't even begin to think of.

I've been reading about the Madoc legend--"Madoc founder of Clark County" that points to evidence of a Welsh prince who left his home because of all the in-fighting and came to the new world before all the famous folks we usually talk about. I could bring some general ideas for that to the table.

Freedom is a good general topic as well.

I'm too tired to think--wore myself right out today.

More tomorrow.
 

kborsden

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I like the elemental idea, and nature and Welsh mythology/legend concept.

Maybe not a story, because that would be pretty hard to pull off, but Madoc ap Owain Gwynedd's discovery of america and his return as metaphor for new found freedom and personal discovery with hints of nature (nature is, after all, the embodiment of freedom).

As far as writing metric lyrics goes, you'll have to email me the sheet music, accented notes highlighted, so I can work on it.

If Tessa is to sing, she'd probably like more say in the melody of the poem, so I think posting WIP in this thread while we build it would be a better idea than emailing back and forth.

It's sounding great, Dirk. I'm getting a little excited and more than curious as to what the final product will sound like.
 

kborsden

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Tessa,

both melodies of the cerdd dant should be able to stand alone aswell as compliment each other.

The lyrics should read as a poem, with a natural rhythm and melody without the music and be singable.

It should be four seperable works, poem-acapella-melody-cerdd dant.

This is why I find the more melodic, yet equally simple air#3 the best. Now it's longer and slightly slower, it's a great piece of music to work with.
 
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ddgryphon

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I like the elemental idea, and nature and Welsh mythology/legend concept.

Maybe not a story, because that would be pretty hard to pull off, but Madoc ap Owain Gwynedd's discovery of america and his return as metaphor for new found freedom and personal discovery with hints of nature (nature is, after all, the embodiment of freedom).

As far as writing metric lyrics goes, you'll have to email me the sheet music, accented notes highlighted, so I can work on it.

If Tessa is to sing, she'd probably like more say in the melody of the poem, so I think posting WIP in this thread while we build it would be a better idea than emailing back and forth.

It's sounding great, Dirk. I'm getting a little excited and more than curious as to what the final product will sound like.

I'll do some notations on the beats (strong and weak) and try to post it up here (screen shots will suffice I guess)--We can change keys to suit whatever range our singer offers--I would prefer a clear, plainsong voice to an operatic/art song voice.

Madoc as Metaphor for freedom works for me, have we agreed on a structural approach for the poem? I know Kie offered some traditional approaches, but they seemed a bit, too difficult for me, I suppose. Will I be working out a counter melody based on the poetry/beat analysis of the poem and existing music?

Thanks for the compliment on the music.
 

kborsden

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Will I be working out a counter melody based on the poetry/beat analysis of the poem and existing music?

Best would be to write out the poem in a neat, lean metric form to fit the weak-strong ratio/meter of the music and then through an analytical approach convert this into a melody, we'll need the help of the singer for that.

As for the vocal style, Rivana doesn't have an exceedingly operatic voice anyway, click on one of the links in her sig to hear her. Her voice is a crisp, I'd call it, voice with much purity.

just a thought:
we could call this piece,
cerdd dant at bantiau chan rhyddid {ker'th dant at ban-ti-eye gan hreethe'id}
(cerdd dant to valleys of freedom)

For more instruction on Welsh pronunciation, look here.
 
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