Desire > Talent?

Yours is a loaded post if I ever read one, temerity.

Let me ask you this: Say I have the talent to write, yet no desire to see it through. You, on the other hand, have the desire to write and are willing to take the time to hone your craft.

In the long run, who would you say will be the more successful writer?

I'd have to say that you've summed it up quite nicely, Silver King.

Personally, I think the word "talent" is misleading. I don't really believe that anyone is born with the ability to write a good story. To me, writing is a skill that must be learned, like any other skill.

That's a tough question. If I devoted the rest of my life to learning how to hit a baseball, I'd still be flailing around in the batting cage at age 75. Yet, there are guys that can roll out of bed hungover on Christmas Day and hit a fastball 500 feet. Although writing isn't very physical, I'd say the same holds true. I could write for a hundred years and never get published, but there are writers out there who could write a bestseller with both hands and their cerebral cortex tied behind their back. However, if they don't bother to write things down and send them to publishers, they'll never see their work in print. Seems to be some magical combination of talent, luck and hard work. If the talent's there, but you don't put any effort into it, it's all for naught.

Interesting you should ask his question Temerity. Ive just finished reading On Writing by Steven King and he sure doesn't mince his words. This is what he says:

"while it is impossible to make a competent writer out of a bad writer, and while it is equally impossible to make a great writer out of a good one, it is possible, with lots of hard work, dedication, and timely help, to make a good writer out of a merely competent one".

By great writer he means Shakespeare -and the like- who are geniuses. So, if you take what he says you can believe, with hard work and persistance, there's an opportunity for you to become a damn good writer. I'd settle for that! If you haven't already read this book-do. BTW, you're 16 with a whole lotta talent from what I could see from your post in SYW. Dont doubt yourself one bit.

Talent, desire, and a thick skin. That's most of what you need. Also one or more of the following: youth (it takes forever), physical attractiveness (for that all important author photo), loquaciousness (useful on the book circuit), a nice inheritance (to tide you over ten or twenty years of no income), an uncle who works at Simon & Schuster, and a MFA from a college in Iowa (or equivalent, eg, a residence program at a Federal Prison--preferably death row).

Talent/desire

There is no way to know whether you can succeed except by trying long and hard. Talent is real. No one is born knowing how to write a story, but no one is born knowing anything. This in no way means you have what it takes to be a writer, anymore than you have what it takes to be a theoretical mathematician.

I wish desire alone could do the job. If it could, I know several dozen people who would have been published long, long ago. There are those, even some pros, who say anyone can learn to write publishable fiction. It's nonsense.

I've been around a bunch of creative writing programs, from ordinary, run of the mill college courses, to MFA programs, to workshops, to seminars, to you name it. I've met any number of writers who had ten times the desire I have, but who never could write worth a darn.

The two extremes are a man and a women I met more than two decades ago. Both have high IQs, both are well-read and articulate. Both have taken several college level creative writing classes, both have been through a number of high end workshops, and have gone to numerous seminars, both have had at least two pro writers try to help them, and both have spent close to twenty years writing almost every day.

The woman has now written twelve novels, and the last one was worse than the first. The man has written eight novels, and I can't see any signs of improvement at all. Something inside their brains just does not work in a way that lets them understand what a publishable story is, or even what good writing is.

I can't tell you how many other writers I've met who have read daily and written daily for years, but who simply lack the understanding of how to write well. They just don't get it, even after years and years of effort, years and years of doing all the right things.

The simple truth is that workshops, college creative writing classes, and MFA programs all over the country are filled with people who have desire coming out their ears, but who lack the talent to make this desire meaningful.

And as an editor, I see the same writer show up in the slush time after time after time, often for years on end, and they never get any better. There's a plateau that marks the limit of their ability, and once they reach it, that's it.

I'm not sure what talent is, but it's real, and not everyone has a talent for writing, just as not everyone has a talent for painting, math, or anything else.

Desire is a good thing, but I know a bunch of successful writers who never had much desire. I'm one of them. I never wanted to be a writer, but I did want some money, so I sat down and write a short story. It sold. I wrote two more, and they sold. I wrote a novel in three weeks, and it sold. This is just how it worked for me. I could name quite a few other writers who had no more trouble than I did.

Desire really is a great thing, but desire alone just leads to frustration unless you have the talent to back it up.

But the good news is that quite a few people do have the talent, and if they have any desire at all, they'll succeed. And the only possible way to know whether you have the talent is to try, and to keep on trying until you can't stand to try another day. Of course, if you really do have the desire, trying won't be a problem.

I went over and checked out your writing in SYW. Seems to me, if you're writing like that at only sixteen and you combine that with writing two hours every day, and learning from everyone and everywhere you can, you have, with lots of hard work, a great chance of maturing into a publishable writer.

Having no plots could be a problem. Read Joseph Campbell's ' The Hero With A Thousand Faces, or Christopher Volger's "The Writer's Journey".

Both deal with plotting. Depending on your intelligence levels, The Writer's Journey is a more accessible read, although lots of people say it's dumbing down the first mentioned book. I have no such prejudices. Both books are good. Some people will scream in outrage at the mention of either book but most stories in the world can be shown to fall into the plot device they outline, and here's the crux. They don't think up plots for you. You still have to work one out yourself, but at least you'll be armed with better knowledge of how plots work.


James, If you come back to read, I'd love to know what in your opinion was the fault with those two people's writing. Was it too much tell or poor characterisation? Was it lack of conflict? No story? Could you put your finger on it? I'm intrigued.

The Lady said:

James, If you come back to read, I'd love to know what in your opinion was the fault with those two people's writing. Was it too much tell or poor characterisation? Was it lack of conflict? No story? Could you put your finger on it? I'm intrigued.

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Well, the problem was neither did anything well, so there was no one area we could point to and work with. Even after years, decades, of effort, both writers still wrote horribly. They did everything wrong from show versus tell, to developing character, to flat writing, to poor description, to lack of story, etc.

We tried working on one thing at a time, but it didn't help. It was frustrating because both wanted so much to be good writers, but neither ever progressed past the point of the average slush pile reject.

Most writers do something well, even if they never do quite reach the level where they're in the top one percent or so of those good enough to sell a novel. But I've seen a lot of writer filled with desire who just never do catch on to any aspect of good writing, and I have no idea why.

Sometimes I think talent is no more and no less than the ability to have the stories we read or hear or see go in our eyes and ears, and then come back out through our fingertips with some of us attached. With a fair number of wannabe writers, this just doesn't happen. No matter how many stories they read or hear or watch, there's some sort of barrier that prevents these stories from coming back out on the page.

I suspect talent is just understanding story structure, characterization, dialogue, story, etc. in some instinctive way through the stories we read and see and hear. Craft is simply where we learn polish this already existing instinct.

We understand storytelling, just as another might understand painting, or another might understand math.

Few would argue that desire alone will make one a great painter, or a great mathematician, or a great philosopher, or a great physicist, but because we all learn to "write" in grade school, many seem to feel that being able to write sentences means being able to write good fiction, if you just have enough desire. I haven't seen anything that tells me this is true.

My advice, for what it is worth, would be to strive to be a professional writer if that is what excites you--but have a back up plan.

Back up

veinglory said:

My advice, for what it is worth, would be to strive to be a professional writer if that is what excites you--but have a back up plan.

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I agree. What is it they say? The best major a writer can take is one that gives him a paying job when he graduates? I've always thought journalism is a great major for a writer. You learn much about writing, there's time to take creative writing courses on the side, and you get a paying job when you graduate.

You'll need both desire and talent, ultimately. But desire helps drive you to make the most of the talent you have.

Jamesaritchie said:

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Few would argue that desire alone will make one a great painter, or a great mathematician, or a great philosopher, or a great physicist, but because we all learn to "write" in grade school, many seem to feel that being able to write sentences means being able to write good fiction, if you just have enough desire. I haven't seen anything that tells me this is true.

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Thanks for replying James. Your post was very informative and thought provoking. You would think that desire would follow talent though. We did some painting in school and I never had either talent or interest in it. I learned how to ride a horse and while I knew I'd never represent my country in the Olympics, I still enjoyed my little competencies. I learned the guitar and while I picked it up real quickly and got praised by my teachers, knew for myself that there was a wall there that was always going to keep me mediocre, so I lost interest.

I'm hoping I'm on the right track with my writing. I'm getting some encouraging feedback from the right places. It just seems strange to me when you can't trust your instincts to lead you in the right direction.

BTW, I would so love to interview those two people and discover what makes them tick. Have they no perspective on their work at all, that they can't see that it doesn't measure up to the standard of books they enjoy? Their story seems fascinating. Perhaps somebody will write about them someday.

I'm totally with JAR on this topic.

The only caveat I'd offer is that there's a crying need in this world for "good enough" writers, because gods know there's plenty of published examples of "not very good" out there.

But in the trades, there's sound reason for dividing Apprentice from Journeyman from Master. Not every prolific writer is a Master, & may be satisfied as an eternal Journeyman. (IMO, this describes Pynchon perfectly, except for the "satisfied" part.) And there's plenty of times where I'll slog through an Apprentice's novel because there's gems littering the text; I just don't fool myself that this makes the writer a Master.

A Journeyman or even an Apprentice might end up with a decent trade, especially if that's all there is to be had in the area. Hanging out one's shingle, though, & even having a steady income, doesn't make one a Master.

What everyone seems to be calling "talent" here, I would prefer to call "aptitude." It doesn't suggest that you're born with it, which is the point. Certainly, desire is not nearly enough.

My brother is smart enough to write, but he never acquired the aptitude for it (or the desire for that matter). Although I don't believe that we're born with it, I do think the aptitude is something we acquire when we're young.

I didn't go looking for this but I found this article while following a link. This comment is by Marvin Kayne editor at Lovecraft's Magazine of Horror. It seemed to touch on what is being discussed.

The rest of the article is at http://www.abyssandapex.com/200704-editorial.html It's a good read.



http://www.abyssandapex.com/200704-...://www.abyssandapex.com/200704-editorial.html

To me it's not talent, it's psychological need. If you need to write you will somehow make yourself better and become professional, it takes longer. One woman, died a number of years ago, Jean Schriver, she had a World Horror best first novel nominee, she died at 45 of cancer. Her stuff was like, oh, this woman will never write, terrible style— yet the desire to be a writer was so strong, I finally one week said, "Here's Strunk and White, my gift, read it before you give me anything else." The next week she brought in a submission that was 900% better than anything I'd received. "How did you do that?" "First thing is I reread your goddamn book three times." http://www.abyssandapex.com/200704-...://www.abyssandapex.com/200704-editorial.html

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http://www.abyssandapex.com/200704-...://www.abyssandapex.com/200704-editorial.html

Michael said:

What everyone seems to be calling "talent" here, I would prefer to call "aptitude." It doesn't suggest that you're born with it, which is the point. Certainly, desire is not nearly enough.

My brother is smart enough to write, but he never acquired the aptitude for it (or the desire for that matter). Although I don't believe that we're born with it, I do think the aptitude is something we acquire when we're young.

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I don't know whether you're born with it, but I know that if you do not have it, you cannot acquire it.

I don't see any reason to think we aren't born with talent. It's a fact that we're born with a brain capable of learning some things and not others, depending on the luck of the genetic draw. All brains are not equal in ways far more complex than simple IQ. Not all people can learn to do all things well. They simply can't. Desire will not do the trick. Hard work will not do the trick. Teaching and instruction will not do the trick. What else is there? How can a person possible "acquire" talent/aptitude when none of this methods work in the great majority of cases? What other method is there for acquiring talent/aptitude, and if it can be acquired, then why do so many fail to do so despite more desire and effort than one could ask?

If talent/aptitude can be acquired, I'd sure love to see anything that suggests this.

Anthony Ravenscroft said:

I'm totally with JAR on this topic.

The only caveat I'd offer is that there's a crying need in this world for "good enough" writers, because gods know there's plenty of published examples of "not very good" out there.

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I don't believe this at all. Those "not very good" published writers are light years ahead of almost anything I see in slush piles, or even in MFA programs. Some published writers may not be very good when compared to the really great writers out thee, but they still look like Shakespeare when compared to most who try to be writers.

Talent

The Lady said:

I didn't go looking for this but I found this article while following a link. This comment is by Marvin Kayne editor at Lovecraft's Magazine of Horror. It seemed to touch on what is being discussed.

The rest of the article is at http://www.abyssandapex.com/200704-editorial.html It's a good read.

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The trouble I have with this is that the woman should have read Strunk & White early on. The writers I'm talking about have already done everything imaginable to become writers, including reading Strunk & White, and hundreds of other books, over and over.

Jamesaritchie said:

I don't know whether you're born with it, but I know that if you do not have it, you cannot acquire it.

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I wouldn't say that. If people are having trouble learning to write, it's most likely because they didn't start early enough in life. What I'm talking about is between the years of 5 and 12. This is the same age range that is most beneficial for learning foreign languages.

Jamesaritchie said:

I don't see any reason to think we aren't born with talent. It's a fact that we're born with a brain capable of learning some things and not others, depending on the luck of the genetic draw.

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To me, this sounds like another way of saying "some people are better than others"--to paraphrase George Orwell.

Jamesaritchie said:

All brains are not equal in ways far more complex than simple IQ. Not all people can learn to do all things well. They simply can't. Desire will not do the trick. Hard work will not do the trick. Teaching and instruction will not do the trick.

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Of course they're not. There are definitely mitigating circumstances that may prevent us from learning. However, in the abscence of such circumstances, there's little reason a person can't learn to write. If I had acquired the aptitude to build houses when I was young, I have no doubt that - had I applied myself - I could have learned to do so quite well. But I had the inclination to write instead.

Jamesaritchie said:

What else is there? How can a person possible "acquire" talent/aptitude when none of this methods work in the great majority of cases? What other method is there for acquiring talent/aptitude, and if it can be acquired, then why do so many fail to do so despite more desire and effort than one could ask?

If talent/aptitude can be acquired, I'd sure love to see anything that suggests this.

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As I suggested above, the aptitude would be acquired during the early years in a person's life, the same as language and communication skills. Therefore, if that person does not acquire it by the adolescent years, then they probably won't - although I do expect there to be exceptions.

Jamesaritchie said:

I don't know whether you're born with it, but I know that if you do not have it, you cannot acquire it.

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The only way to judge would be accomplishment, wouldn't it? So if you accomplish X, you prove that you have the talent to accomplish X. If you don't accomplish X, as far as anyone can tell, you don't have the talent to accomplish X. Everything else is pure conjecture, seems to me.

caw

Huh. Maybe. But you could probably be a genuis and still not get published.

Anyway, I had a look at your work in SYA, Temerity, and I have to agree with The Lady. Whether or not you're born with it, you've got it.

Michael said:

Huh. Maybe. But you could probably be a genuis and still not get published.

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In that case, who would know? Tree falling in the forest, nobody there to hear it, and all that . . .

caw

can you 'feel', 'live' and 'tell' what you write?

then you've got some talent.

the rest is 'desire'.

sixteen is the best time to choose your direction. what you choose now will define you. hope you choose to write.