Why Magic?

is it a war story if there's no war?

scheherazade says yes and no.

you don't need elves and dwarves for it to be fantasy, it just won't be a particular kind of fantasy.

what do you think are some story elements that needs to be there for it to be fantasy?

The Second Sons trilogy by Jennifer Fallon is a fantasy, it's set on some other world (not in a sci-fi colonisation sense), and it contains no magic at all, from recollection. Also, no mythical creatures, elves, etc. Some of the more secondary characters believe in what might be called magic, but that's it.

So, yes - fantasy can still be fantasy with minimum magic.

Personally, I think the 'fantasyness' of something seems tied to the world - To me, Second Sons feels more like fantasy than urban fantasy usually does. Don't know why.

I don't think magic is necessary for fantasy. You could write a story about someone from a culture of your own invention, with a different worldview and level of technology from your own, and no magic at all--and it would be perfectly legitimate as a work of fantasy.

You could write about a foraging society, living in the middle of a vast savanna. It's not in Africa, or any place on Earth that we can recognize; it's an invented world. They have a social structure and cosmology based on their experiences as nomadic grassland-dwellers, moving with the seasons (and what are those seasons?). They have vague ideas about the world beyond the grassland, but most of it is secondhand information, so they have superstitions about it. They have a religion, and they practice certain rites, and maybe some people have visions, but what they do isn't really magic.

The protagonist is a member of this society, and s/he must undertake a journey to the forest or the ocean--which no one among his or her people has ever seen (or if they've gone to look for it, they've never returned).

You could build this entire fictional universe, set one person's quest within it, and it would be fantasy. Without magic. Without swords, even.

You could even write a fantasy novel about rabbits, who must find a new home after their old warren is destroyed.

As Preyer pointed out, these won't fit into certain genres of fantasy, but what book fits into every genre?

And oh, yes--you can definitely have fantasy without dragons, fairies, gnomes, dwarves, and the like. I'm writing contemporary and urban fantasy that includes none of these creatures.

I'm pretty sure Gormenghast has no magic in it - and that's definitely a fantasy.

I'm pretty sure The Paladin by C.J. Cherryh is classed as fantasy, and it has no magic in it whatsoever. Very good read too!

Or you could just have a fantasy with no magic, but lots of big monsters roaming around the world...

I think this question comes from someone who thinks magic = 'weird shit happening'. In your opinion is a Vampire a magical being?


I think putting magic fanstasy is just like using a medieval setting in fantasy (see another thread that's currently active). It's something a lot of people easily relate to. It's also something you can easily put in because of the great scope of possibilities you have with magic.

Can you have fantasy without magic? Yes. But it's so darn easy to put it in and spice things up with it.

George R.R. Martin's big series started out with no magic in the first book, and it still felt like fantasy to me. It would have continued to feel like that even if he had not brought in mythical elements and a little magic later. Now if he would just magically get the next book out... gggrrrrr

In my opinion, a vampire isn't a "magical being," but certainly qualifies as fantasy. Same goes for werewolves. Maybe also ghosts. I don't think everything supernatural counts as magical. In fact, I'm not sure I'd even consider elves magical.

For me, I guess, when I think magic, I think specifically of the ability to consciously alter natural forces in a supernatural way. And no, I don't think you have to have that for fantasy. I think fantasy is just operating outside what's real, but not in a futuristic/scifi/speculative way. That can include everything from Gormenghast to Alice in Wonderland to the Warriors series.

Fantasy without magic? Sure. But I personally prefer fantasy with magic -- and lots of it. Steven Erikson comes to mind. And I love comparing strengths versus strengths. For instance, I'd like to see Gandalf square off with Thomas Covenant. Or Frodo versus any of Robert Jordan's characters. That kind of thing.

deathwizard said:

Or Frodo versus any of Robert Jordan's characters. That kind of thing.

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In what way? I hope you don't mean in a fight, because Frodo doesn't exactly have a lot to bring to the table there...

Otherwise, I agree with you. I'd love to see Druss the Legend (the David Gemmell character) vs. Conan. Or my gal Rose against either of them. Or a three-way, in a wrestling ring! Could any of them beat the Undertaker at Wrestlemania?!

...oh wait, been there, done that (Smackdown vs. Raw 2007 on the PS2).

I've read what I think is fantasy without magic. There is no magic, but it's not our world, but it's got humans and it's not in the future and has gunpowder level technology or so.

The main difference is that men are very rare and women are plentiful, so the gender roles are reversed. So it's the handsome farmboy who is seduced by the princess, rather than the other way around...normally it's the farmgirl getting seduced by a prince.

Pretty good book.

Frodo whips any of Jordan's characters, even without the ring. (Ha!)

My fantasy has no magic in it. Not that it matters really, the story is character driven not "fantasy appeal, lets build the most complex/magical world" driven.

None of my fantasy stories have magic in them (5 novel-parts and about 20 shorts stories). One has vampires, but the rest are completely devoid of magic/supernatural stuff.

So I hope its okay.

Sure. Fantasy's biggest requirement is that you WORLDBUILD. That can be with or without magic. But magic's an easier way to build the world. It explains so many things . . . well, magically that you otherwise have to put logic and physics behind.

There's "fantasy" and then there's "high fantasty."

High fantasy will always have the magic spells and strange creatures and distant lands.

Cathy C said:

Sure. Fantasy's biggest requirement is that you WORLDBUILD. That can be with or without magic. But magic's an easier way to build the world. It explains so many things . . . well, magically that you otherwise have to put logic and physics behind.

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What I find really interesting is when authors combine magic and physics, paying respect to both. So magic influences the world, but even magic, at some points, obeys the laws of physics (i.e., Newton's 3rd Law, etc.), even when it alters them by allowing people do things like fly.

My mage in my novel doesn't really use his magic that much. One of the antagonists does use magic on a horrific scale, and another character is driven by the desire to possess certain magical knowledge. So instead of having most of my characters actively use magic, I wove into the fabric of my fantasy world and my story. This wasn't intentional--it started out with a lot of magic and that started to fade into the background as the main characters' personalities developed differently.

My current WIP is without magic, is in pre-historic times, and has no fantasy creatures. I consider it fantasy because I crerated the races and empires.

Several books by Guy Guvriel Kay have very little magic in them.

Tri-Injuring Prophet said:

Can fantasy still be fantasy if magic is kept to a minimum? Can a world without magic still be classed as fantasy? What if there are no elves, no dwarves, no dragons? Or would it be historical fantasy?

Finally, are there examples of this?

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Two very fine examples are Maia and Shardik by Richard Adams. The only "magic" is mostly a bunch of smoke and mirrors. It's classed as fantasy because it takes place in no world or culture that anybody on Earth would recognize, and it's definitely not science fiction. There are no elves, no dwarves, no dragons - not even any horses. It sure isn't historical, because Bekla never existed on Earth.

deathwizard said:

Fantasy without magic? Sure. But I personally prefer fantasy with magic -- and lots of it. Steven Erikson comes to mind. And I love comparing strengths versus strengths. For instance, I'd like to see Gandalf square off with Thomas Covenant. Or Frodo versus any of Robert Jordan's characters. That kind of thing.

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Frodo would destroy Rand so utterly. It wouldn't even be funny.