Cursing. Okay or not okay?

Haggis · Apr 9, 2007

I'm currently working on a story (or rather, it's working on me) that is totally out of my normal genre. It involves a middle school boy and his assigned ghost, who is a bit of a crusty character. He's been known to cuss. Is this acceptable to that market? Should it be toned down or eliminated? Or should I just write this for an adult market? I have zero clues about kids books so I would appreciate any help I can get.

johnrobison · Apr 9, 2007

Well, I don't have any clues about the children's market either, but I gave serious thought to every usage of a cuss word in my adult memoir. There is a significant percentage of our population that does not care to read ho/cunt/fuck/sit/motherfucker and all the others.

Ask yourself this for each passage: How many readers will say, "huh? What's wrong?" if you leave the swears out. And how many will say, "right on, motherfucker!" when you leave them in.

In my opinion, the answer to the above will suggest you use them sparingly.

Rolling Thunder · Apr 9, 2007

You can always edit them out later, Haggis. Besides, an agent or publisher who wants the book bad enough will probably make the suggestion if it's too rough.

Cindyh2k · Apr 9, 2007

I think it would depend on how graphic the cuss word is - Robin Williams said a cuss word in the rated g Disney movie - Aladdin - and there are lots of movies for kids that have cuss words in them now.

Also, there are books in the library at my children's school with the occasional cuss word - though mild ones, like damn, etc........

I would just write them in if that is where the story leads - and then, as everyone else has said, you can always take them out later

Cindy

McDuff · Apr 9, 2007

Depends on the age you're aiming it at. Personally, talking as someone who peppers his adult literature with all the swearing I can think of if it fits the character, I'd be inclined to look for other ways you can make the character "crusty" without having him swear. As cliched as it seems, "gawrshdarn you pesky whippersnapper!" gets across the idea of an old curmudgeon probably better than "goddamn you little fucker!"

Also, it'll give you an excuse to throw in archaic and seldom used words. Have him call someone a "craven lickspittle", I dare you!

Angelinity · Apr 9, 2007

if some cursing fits the character and rounds him up, i wouldn't leave it out just because. i like McDuff's take on this.

jonereb · Apr 10, 2007

As a father of 9 and 10 year olds, I would not allow my kids to read books containing curse words. I'm trying to teach them not to use such language. In fact, I've given up on books that contained an over-use of cursing, especially the F-word. I don't know if it's supposed to be trendy or modern or whatever. But it doesn't appeal to me. MHO.

McDuff · Apr 10, 2007

In general, I use it in dialogue because people swear. I don't tend to have vicars swearing. But, really, most people swear at least a little.

This goes out of the window when you're writing for children, though, because if you make an assumption of good parents you're going to expect them to read what their children are reading, either beforehand or afterwards. I think you'll alienate more parents with anything more than the occasional "damn and blast!" Children don't treat swearing the same way adults, do, either. For them they're not colourful amplifiers, they're taboo words to be whispered and giggled about. Putting them into books for children will more than likely break the flow of the story and appear more gimmicky than anything.

Soccer Mom · Apr 10, 2007

It all depends on the target age, Haggis. If the market is YA: then I say hell yeah. It's all fair game. If the market is MG, swearing is generally a no-no. I say generally, because a minimum of swearing might be deemed acceptable based on the publisher. But schools and such are often very strict about what they will put on their shelves. It can severely limit your MG market.

AND BTW: Yay! We've lured Haggis into the kiddie forum! Hahahahahah! One of us! One of us! :e2teeth:

Jamesaritchie · Apr 10, 2007

Cussing

At best, you're greatly limiting the number of publishers that might take the book, and the number of parents who will allow their kids to read the book, all for something that's completely unnecessary. And good writer can get the point across without using the actual words.

Haggis · Apr 10, 2007

Thanks so much, everyone. You've all been very helpful

My ghost is going to be mighty upset, but I guess he's going to have to tone it down a little.

Melanie Nilles · Apr 10, 2007

There are work-arounds too. As other threads on swearing have mentioned, use curse words sparingly. I'm not the only person who doesn't like reading them in books, much less kids reading them (speaking as a parent). You can get around using actual words many times by just mentioning in narrative that the character uttered an expletive or swore a string that would embarrass a sailer (or pick a professional known for foul language). If it's the POV character swearing, that might be more difficult. But then, I don't write characters who have horribly foul mouths. It's distracting to read, whether it fits the character or not. I returned a book recently because I hated a character who had that trait (and was generally obscene and unlikable).

Reserve writing actual foul words for the most appropriate moments.

FredCharles · Apr 10, 2007

I'm writing an adult fantasy novel. I had curse words all over the first draft. As I continued to edit, I slowly weeded almost 98% of them out of the story. I started to feel that most of the words didn't need to be there and it forced me to be a bit more creative with dialogue.

I love horror movies and violent action films, but as a parent, I would not want my daughter reading books with cursing in them. I have a friend who is an authority on childrens literature and runs an excellent blog on the subject. I will ask her what she thinks.

davids · Apr 10, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
At best, you're greatly limiting the number of publishers that might take the book, and the number of parents who will allow their kids to read the book, all for something that's completely unnecessary. And good writer can get the point across without using the actual words.

The best advice you can get Hagster-it might turn out to be an adult book-the reason- if you need one that I totally agree with James is that it is too easy to use blank cuss words-they are used and at times necessary-but often the use of them is simply fucking lazy. It is difficult enought to get published-simple logic dictates that you increase your chances rather than decrease them-hence the obvious logic of James post

NTG · Apr 10, 2007

Why swear? Why not?

A long time ago, in my college days, a co-worker at the UPS truck wash came up to me out of nowhere and demanded to know "Howcome you never cuss??" I didn't have time to carefully think through an answer, so I just said, "Because I don't need to. Most of the people I know who cuss a whole lot have really limited vocabularies and no imagination."

Since then I've taken the time to think it through more carefully, and I realize now that beyond the question of vocabulary and imagination, most use of swear words is simple verbal aggression. A type-A guy who thinks he's tough, or who thinks he needs to be tough, will swear a lot mostly to establish his ascendancy over his immediate audience. Others around him will swear in order not to be thought less than manly. (Or less than equal to a man, as the case may be).

It's something like taking up smoking, which is still common but used to be almost universal. Kids were eager to smoke because it made them appear to be more grown-up. They used rough language then, and do so even more now, for the same reason.

I would agree with JohnRobison. How many will object if you put the words in, and how many will object if you leave them out? I would also add the question whether you, as an author, want to encourage young people to use even more cheap, contentless swear words as ordinary punctuation marks, or would you prefer to help hold the line against that rising tide of coarseness?

Nathanael

McDuff · Apr 10, 2007

I know some people don't agree, but I actually think there's a certain elegance to the word "fuck". I don't put it into sentences because I can't think of anything else to say. I put it in because it's a word that people use in their daily lives. Not everybody, but lots of people. And, while it has a level of aggression to it, that can be useful in signifying a directness.

"I think we just need to talk about our relationship and how we both see it developing in the future-"

"Fuck this for a game of soldiers. I'm off."

"Fuck" is also, I think, an almost perfect onomatopoeic word for the immediate feeling of stubbing one's toe on a sharp corner. We may not all get from the sensation to the actual vocalisation of the word, but what goes through the mind at that point is the distilled essence of the word "fuck."

Other curse words have personalities and information to them. You call someone a "bastard" and it's different depending on the modifier, they might be a magnificent bastard or a lovable old bastard, or something might be a bastardy thing to do. Similiarly with "bugger," which can be cheerful - jovial even - in certain situations.

In short, I am a staunch defender of the literary and cultural value of all words coarse and vulgar. Just not in children's literature.

Shady Lane · Apr 10, 2007

There's a great thread about this in the YA section.

NTG · Apr 11, 2007

McDuff said:
In short, I am a staunch defender of the literary and cultural value of all words coarse and vulgar. Just not in children's literature.

Why not in children's literature? (I'm thinking out loud here, so to speak.) I suppose for the same reason we don't want children to drive cars. They can't handle it properly until they grow up. But they're getting too much pressure to grow up too fast. Unfortunately, some of them will never "grow up" enough to handle any kind of higher-level language well.

Maybe it's just me, but I think it's ironic that the worst, most vicious, ugliest word in the arsenal is the word for sex. Here our society is supposedly trying to shake off the hangup about that subject, and all that has happened is that it has become the dirtiest word left to throw around. Religious words, once the strongest of all, have become "mild" because few take religion seriously any more. Body functions, which speak of decay and death, still provoke revulsion. But the worst of the worst remains sex.
This is just my personal opinion, but I think that's a shame. Even the Bible doesn't condemn sex as such. Only its mishandling. Unfaithfulness. One of the strongest "colorful metaphors" in the Old Testament is "whoredom". Not the act of sex, but the breaking of faith. The shattering of a solemn covenant. Today, "ho" is just a cheap insult. Nobody really seems to know what the word means any more, they just like the sound of it (although tossed at just the wrong time, it can still cost somebody his job.) Can you imagine a seventh-grader yelling at another seventh-grader at lunch time, screaming, "You filthy, lying, oath breaker!" I can just imagine that kid going home and asking, low and furtively, "Dad. . .what does 'oath' mean?"

FredCharles · Apr 11, 2007

I asked a friend of mine about this. Her name is Jen Robinson and she runs a blog about children's literature. Her reply is below:

"Part of my answer would be that if a person wants to write for children,
they should probably read some children's books, to get a feel for the
genre. This is something that I would strongly recommend. But as far as thespecific question about cussing, you certainly see swearwords in young adultfiction (marketed to kids age 13 and up). In fiction for younger kids, I
don't tend to see very much, usually it would only be if it was really
necessary for the plot for some strong reason. Even in YA fiction, while you see swearing, books will also get criticized for that sometimes. It again depends on whether it's necessary for the plot, or if it's just for shock effect. It sounds to me like what your friend is talking about is at least YA fiction, and could even potentially be adult fiction."

Hope this helps!

giftedrhonda · Apr 11, 2007

To me, cursing is authentic for some characters, as well as some age groups. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer.

I also don't think the cursing needs to be profane (as in, the heavy-duty words), unless it REALLY fits your book.

infinitus_kaze · Apr 12, 2007

Haggis said:
I'm currently working on a story (or rather, it's working on me) that is totally out of my normal genre. It involves a middle school boy and his assigned ghost, who is a bit of a crusty character. He's been known to cuss. Is this acceptable to that market? Should it be toned down or eliminated? Or should I just write this for an adult market? I have zero clues about kids books so I would appreciate any help I can get.

It depends on your age range. If you are truly writing a children's book (under the age of 13) then I would completely remove any swearing and, if it must be there, make reference to it by saying something like, "he said something that would make is mother cry." If it is a book for YA (13 - 18) then it depends on the individual reader and their parents. You can include the curse words, but be careful as to which ones you use in which situation and how often. If you are writing for adults (18+) then there is no problem whatsoever with the amount or type of curse words you use. Adults are capable of deciding for themselves whether or not to read something with swearing.

One thing that I suggest if you still plan to write for children is to go to the library, flea markets, garage sales, bookstores, et cetera, and find as many children's books as you can to read. Writing for children is a delicate craft, much more difficult than writing for teens or adults because you need to not only consider your content, but your vocabulary as well. You need to use words that children are familiar with. It would be best to read as many children's books as you can to get a feel for the style of writing required to gain a child's interest.

I'm currently working on a children's novella as a present for my nieces and nephew (I'm using their names as the characters) and it is kicking my butt. It is by far the hardest thing I've ever had to write and will take me a lot of research and outlining to get right.

janetbellinger · Apr 12, 2007

I wouldn't put any swearing in a children's book. I wouldn't even put it in an adult's book unless there was a very compelling reason to do it. Not to preach but don't we all hear enough swearing and other unsavory words every day in the real world?

Haggis · Apr 12, 2007

Thanks again, everyone. Very good advice here.

infinitus_kaze · Apr 12, 2007

janetbellinger said:
I wouldn't put any swearing in a children's book. I wouldn't even put it in an adult's book unless there was a very compelling reason to do it. Not to preach but don't we all hear enough swearing and other unsavory words every day in the real world?

That is exactly why swearing belongs in some books for certain characters. If you are trying to emulate the real world through your literature than it doesn't make any sense to censor out swearing. Then your literature loses the "real world" aspect. Still, I think cussing should be done with a reason and intent. Pointless cursing for the sake of it wouldn't be something I would recommend, but if you are depicting a gangster character or a bad-tempered character cursing is essential to that character.

NTG · Apr 13, 2007

janetbellinger said:
I wouldn't put any swearing in a children's book. I wouldn't even put it in an adult's book unless there was a very compelling reason to do it. Not to preach but don't we all hear enough swearing and other unsavory words every day in the real world?

I just today heard this on a talk show: A lady, a mom with children, was waiting at a McDonalds, and several teens nearby were using really foul language. She actually asked them politely if they could not use that kind of language in front of her children, and all she got was cussed out for it. Maybe she was lucky she didn't get hit.

That is why I call foul language aggressive language. It's one thing to talk however you want in private, among friends. It's another thing to talk that way in public among people who don't know you. It's not merely impolite. It's verbal aggression, pure and simple, showing total contempt for other people. Just imagine, instead of words, that we were discussing cigarette smoke. [You don't like my f*** smoke? Then just leave the f*** restaurant, b**!]

Fair enough comparison?

That's why I personally prefer to respect young people by demonstrating for them that the kind of language we use actually matters, and polite doesn't necessarily mean weak.

Cursing. Okay or not okay?

Haggis

Evil, undead Chihuahua

johnrobison

A Free Range Aspergian

Rolling Thunder

Cindyh2k

McDuff

Angelinity

absent

jonereb

McDuff

Soccer Mom

Crypto-fascist

Jamesaritchie

Haggis

Evil, undead Chihuahua

Melanie Nilles

What're you looking at?

FredCharles

davids

NTG

McDuff

Shady Lane

my name is hannah

NTG

FredCharles

giftedrhonda

Gifted Goofball

infinitus_kaze

Brutally honest...to a fault

janetbellinger

Haggis

Evil, undead Chihuahua

infinitus_kaze

Brutally honest...to a fault

NTG