Stronger Writing??

Take the books in your genre that have sold the best, and read them carefully. Take scenes from those books, and compare them to your own. What are the differences?

That should give you some idea of what constitutes "stronger writing" for your type of book.

"Stronger writing" is not an automatic thing. We move from telling the readers to showing them by process of revision. In my own work, I start by telling the story. Then, I go back and rewrite it to make the storyemerge on its own from the scenes.

That is how a stronger story develops from a good but weak start. At least for me.

I second that. And I'd add a thought: Always begin with action, not exposition, which can come later. You may even find that when you're finished with the action, you have less to explain, because you've shown it already. This takes a lot of practice, and I freely admit, beginnings aren't my strong suit.

John's advice is very sound. I would add that your questions about pacing, etc. of the various scenes depend a lot on genre. If you are writing romances, there is room for more description, more emphasis on emotion, etc.; if you are writing thrillers, the faster you can get the reader's blood pumping, the better.

Definitely do a lot of bookstore-browsing before you pay for critiques. IMHO, smart reading is the first and most important step toward good writing.

About getting proper feedback: I know you really shouldn't ask agents or editors for feedback because that isn't what they do. You're just trying to get them to take a project on, yeah? So, it would be like a vacuum cleaner salesman asking you for a detailed list of why you are not interested in his vacuums and what he could do to improve the individual vacuum he's trying to sell to you. See? That just becomes annoying no matter how nicely it is done. I would post in SYW, here. They're extremely helpful. Also, critiquing the work of others can help you see the same flaws in your own. Sometimes you're just too close to see things you may recognize once you've spotted them in someone else's work.

Without having seen any of your work, this line of your post struck me as a possible clue to your problem: "I was hacking some much needed info that binds the reader to the character..." In my experience no amount of information is going to bind anyone to your characters. Instead, people will get attached to your characters as they watch them in action, you know? Someone could tell you a tragic story about themselves, but you probably won't empathize with them until you actually see them cry.

All this is, IMO, of course. I'm no expert, not by a long shot. But, I hope I helped a little, anyway.

One (or several) more thing(s), regarding paying someone for advice . . .

I doubt very much if you'll find a highly successful writer who would advise you for pay. You might befriend someone and get advice for free, but I doubt if you'll get it for money from highly successful writers.

Those who will offer to take your money are probably not to be trusted and I urge you to beware of such offers.

It is essential that you develop the skill to make your own work stronger. That's what I did for the first book, and now I'm doing it for the second.
The only external critical advice I got while writing my book was along the lines of, "that's no good!" "Show them, don't tell them!" and the ever popular, "You can do better that this shit!"

I guess sophisticated criticism isn't necessary. At least, it wasn't for me.

Claudia's suggestion that you tailor the scenes to the type of book is something that frankly never occurred to me, but makes perfect sense. It's a remarkably good and relevant idea. As an Aspergian, I think logically and not emotionally, and you may need more emotion for novel writing. I personally know nothing about writing novels.

Try and see things from a different point of view. The editors I met all remarked on my book's unique perspectives and views of seemingly common things. That was interesting because I had not meant it that way. I guess my view of the world is more unusual that I had previously suspected. Now that I know that, I can say with confidence, the more unique your work, the better the chance it will be noticed.

For example, in my children's stories, the horses are nuclear powered, and the fish carry guns. And my kid grew up to show the neighborhood children how to drop bits of hot dog down the storm drains to feed the dragons, so they stay down there and don't come out to eat the local kids.

There are always children who say, dragons aren't real, but eaten kids tell no tales. And a fed dragon stays out of sight, in his storm drain.

There are different ways to look at anything. We see what looks like a big bird, soaring off in the distance. But, really, how do we KNOW it's a bird? Perhaps it really is a flying lizard. . .

Letting my mind wander resulted in many remarkable creations in my career in the music business. I have no idea where it will lead as an author, but I guess I'll find out.

But don't cross the line from eccentric into weird. Position yourself as an entertainer, not a deviant to be locked in a cage.

I truly wish I had the answers to questions like yours. I could use them myself, as I scour my mind for stories. But I don't have the answers - just possibly intelligent guesses, and even those (at least here) may be too strange to use.

1. Read books in your genre with an eye to construction.
2. Read books on writing.
3. Join a writer's group.
4. Take a creative writing class.

Those are four things you can do that may help you without costing as much as a professional editor/reader.

johnrobison said:

Take the books in your genre that have sold the best, and read them carefully. Take scenes from those books, and compare them to your own. What are the differences?

That should give you some idea of what constitutes "stronger writing" for your type of book.

"Stronger writing" is not an automatic thing. We move from telling the readers to showing them by process of revision. In my own work, I start by telling the story. Then, I go back and rewrite it to make the storyemerge on its own from the scenes.

That is how a stronger story develops from a good but weak start. At least for me.

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That sounds like some good advice. If you don't mind, I think I'm going to put that method into practice. I tend to focus too much on showing the story in the rough draft. If telling is good enough early on, that'll make my life a lot easier.

There's this magic thing that happens between our mouths and our ears. Read your work out loud. Read someone else's work out loud. You will hear a difference.

Also, Janet Burroway's excellent how-to book has chapters on sentence structure that if played with can really boost your writing power.

Good luck.

Melissa,

my brother and I have recently set up a peer-review site for writers. We're both published novelists and, for what it's worth, we can offer '1st glance' feedback on your submitted sample.

It's not exactly a comprehensive critique, and we don't do it for money....but we may well a spot a few of the more obvious issues that can/should be addressed.

The site is here http://www.youwriteonline.co.uk


edited: I should add, your work is visible to all members of the site, so that they can also pass comment. So, if you're wary of preserving a unique idea/plot point, merely send in a sample (max 3000 wds) that typically illustrates your writing style

It seems to me that you are making a basic mistake in what you're looking for. You ask about understanding the publishing world and getting insight therein. May I suggest that instead, you focus on just becoming a better writer. In the feedback you referred to, you mention that you were advised to cut which suggests you have commited the mistake that all writers (in my experience - and I include myself) make at the start.

You had a romance with words. If there was a wonderful way to wax lyrical about "the neon hues reflecting off the dirty puddles in an alleyway, in which futile moats surround overflowing industrial trashcans where the detritus of urban-life seems to be scaling the walls, like pillaging invaders of old;" when you could have said "the alley was grim, dirty and the neon from the street cast everything in an unnatural light."

Sometimes... MOST times, less is more.

There's an old chestnut about screenwriting that says you should start a scene AFTER the action has started and leave BEFORE it's totally wound up. Seemed like insanity to me when I first came across that, but when you understand that, you'll be a better writer.

I think you already got the advice you need, but maybe you should try this. Write a short story. Stay in your novel genre. I'm sure you have ideas, but if not, take one of your characters and give them a mini-adventure that occurs before or after the novel takes place. The one restriction is that you must not use more than 2500 words.

From what you said, I bet you can't do it. It took me some time to work out how to do that. When I finally did work it out, the benefits to my longer pieces were amazing. It also helped me develop my voice. You'll learn how to characterize through dialog rather than through a big set-up. You'll learn to trust your readers to work out the parts you don't spoon-feed them. And best of all, you'll learn to trust yourself to be able to tell your story without spoon-feeding.

You can also post your novel on critters.org, which will provide some great peer review. Some of the feedback will suck and/or be useless, but some will be pure gold. And anything you get multiple comments on, needs attention.

All of the above should be freely ignored if you see fit, and is worth just less than the two cent cover-price.

Another great post, brought to you by those nice primates at writingmonkey.com!

"Starting with action" doesn't mean you have to cut to the chase in every scene. It means making it interesting right off the bat. Why start with paragraphs of the vista and the nice big house when you can start with dialogue or a person? Examine each scene and see what makes it interesting and start from there, and not some exposition or info dump.

It's a common error with a lot of writers -- they believe they have to set things up, like in the movies. They have to have that tracking shot of the village and the people, and the beautiful sunset, before they tell you what's going on with some characters. In novels, we can about what characters do and what happen to them. The settings and expositions should be supportive, and not the main focus.

It doesn't mean it has to be that way ALL THE TIME. There are times when it's good to slow down and see the sceneries. Again, you need to look at the structure of each scene and examine how it's going to be interesting to your readers. Word choice, pace, structure, dialogue, etc. all work together if you want "strong writing."

And yeah, study how the masters do it. Read.

I was hacking some much needed info that binds the reader to the character

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First make the readers care.

MelissaFoster said:

I tried that and in most cases felt as though I was hacking some much needed info that binds the reader to the character, or that each scene was becoming too short.

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I don't think I've ever read a book where I've gone, darn, I wish the author would've provided some more information. The one's where you're left clueless are fantastic, as they give your (the reader's) imagination more room to work.

It's surprising how little information you really need when you read, the situation and the action is often enough.

MelissaFoster said:

Any ideas on how to get proper feedback without being pesty?

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No. Unless they include it in their response to your material, agents are unlikely to provide you with feedback, especially given the volume of work that they receive and review.

One very kind agent suggested that I use less detail, and not start scenes at the beginning, but simply where the action starts - I tried that and in most cases felt as though I was hacking some much needed info that binds the reader to the character, or that each scene was becoming too short.

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What does the reader really need to know? What can be implied through action or dialog? Many times you can work some of this information in little dribs throughout a scene. In other instances, you may just need to be brutal and cut it. (Save the original version and work in a separate file.) Take a break from the piece, then come back and read it with a more objective mind. Do you miss the information that's no longer there?

Cutting out this detail can be hard, but practicing it can also teach you more about your writing, what you really need to build your story, and how to not be so attached to every word you've written that they become grafted to your skin.

Kay_XX said:

It's surprising how little information you really need when you read, the situation and the action is often enough.

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Exactly!

Namatu said:

Exactly!

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Agree. There is a reason why we have imaginations!

A book called "The Forest for the Trees" by Betsy Lerner (former editor and agent) has some good insight. I discovered I was '"the good child"- my writing was safe, and my plots were tame. Her book helped me understand how to make my voice and writing stronger, not so much by offering how-to technical advice, but by helping me to see where I was coming from, and why.

johnrobison said:

I doubt very much if you'll find a highly successful writer who would advise you for pay.

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I'm merely modestly successful, & I would do -- & have done -- it for a penny a word.

Is it worth it? Yep, & then some.

And you could get almost as good for a whole lot cheaper by finding yourself a reader or three who'd be willing to say, "There's one thing I don't get...."

So far the advice has been dead on. I'd only add, you might want to post in the "share your work" section to get some feedback from folks here.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned that. (Either that or I missed it.)

Leesee --

a) If you consider your first ms good enough to submit --
well, you submitted it, after all --
then stop putzing around with it.
Send it out more.
Get some more rejections.

Two rejections is nothing.


b) Start novel two.

c) If you want advice, join a critique group.
You will learn from what other folks have to say.
You will learn when you crit other folks' work.

d) The first million words are for practice.

e) Read the best works in your field of fiction.
Read fiction that is very different from what you write.

f) Do not worry about the industry. Or trends. Or anything except writing well.

g) Write passionately.

One of the hardest things we have to do is to get rid of those beautiful, glorious, fantastic, clever words of ours. But they frequently get in the way of the story.