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jst5150 · Apr 9, 2007

.. this topic.

My WIP is about 49,000 words. And I'm fairly happy with it. So are three beta readers I bounced it off. It's solid. And it's pretty good. However, all the great advice from this board and elsewhere is that I need about 80,000 words to sell the thing. That said, I'm willing to bulk up, but need some suggestions (that I may have forgotten from Uncle Jim's thread or otherwise).

As I continue to edit this last go-round, I'm finding strings of things to insert. However, not the 23,000 or so words necessary to get the thing from the prep facility onto the launch pad. So, here I am, arms wide and willing to listen.

Genre: Action/Thriller (A period piece, set in time periods from 1923 to 1963)

Whatever constructive, positive suggestions you'll offer, I'd appreciate (and rep the heck out of). Many thanks!

Ready? Go!

v/r, jt

Ol' Fashioned Girl · Apr 9, 2007

Have you asked your betas if there's any place where they had questions? Wanted to know more? Wondered what happened before or after a scene?

maestrowork · Apr 9, 2007

Add a few subplots, characterization. Beef up the dialogue. Add some descriptions. Voila! Before you knew it, it's at 80,000 words and change.

Claudia Gray · Apr 9, 2007

Although shorter books can sell and be successful, something closer to 80K is generally the yardstick for adult fiction -- and I would think thrillers are one of the genres where it would be hardest to sell a shorter book. I think Ol' Fashioned Girl's advice is sound, in terms of thinking about how you might expand.

Will Lavender · Apr 9, 2007

That's a ton of words.

Only suggestion I have off the top of my head is give a few chapters to somebody else. Maybe there's a villain/secondary MC/love interest who could maybe share the perspective for awhile.

TheIT · Apr 9, 2007

Which word count method are you using? If you're going by the MS Word count, the whitespace word count might be higher.

Spiny Norman · Apr 9, 2007

What's the least acceptable bottom length for adult fiction? I ask because mine is in the 78-82k range... Because it's changed considerably.

...and because it looks like I'm going to be making cuts.

jst5150 · Apr 9, 2007

I'm using the 250 words/page standard. And I figured wrong. It's actually closer to 64,000 words. So. perhaps not so far to go. But keep the suggestions coming! Many thanks.

jt

NeuroFizz · Apr 9, 2007

One way Ray mentioned is to add subplots, and if you do, you must weave them into the main story arc (pretty obvious stuff). There is another tack you can take, though. Find your primary theme or themes and see if there is another theme that's hiding in the story that could be fleshed out. This could require significant work (new scenes and maybe even new characters), but it could translate into manuscript bulk that would increase the depth of the story. Of these two factors (bulk and depth) the second one is the only decent justification for going this way (in my opinion).

Will Lavender · Apr 9, 2007

Spiny Norman said:
What's the least acceptable bottom length for adult fiction? I ask because mine is in the 78-82k range... Because it's changed considerably.

...and because it looks like I'm going to be making cuts.

My contract says 80K. I'd say that's where most publishers want you to aim.

Your agent can actually negotiate this, so I doubt if there's really a true "bottom length." But to be safe, I don't think I would send out a novel that was less than 70K.

jst5150 · Apr 9, 2007

I've got a fairly tangible and relavent sub-plot already (one I think you'd all like). So, I probably need to beef that up, too.

jst5150 · Apr 9, 2007

Spiny Norman said:
What's the least acceptable bottom length for adult fiction? I ask because mine is in the 78-82k range... Because it's changed considerably.

...and because it looks like I'm going to be making cuts.

Best advice from sage members of this board and elsewhere is 80K. That's my milestone. More is gravy.

Besides, I'm a journalist by nature. I'm proud to get past anything that's not skeleton.

jt

maestrowork · Apr 9, 2007

Another way to beef it up is introduce another character. A minor put pivotal character relevant to your main plot or subplot. Simply by adding another character arc you can add some substantial complexity and material to your story.

p.s. my book is at 75,000. Not a big deviation from 80,000.

BiggerBoat · Apr 9, 2007

A low (or high) word count is one of those things that a manuscript has to overcome. It's a tally in the "negative" column from the perspective of agents and publishers. Is there something you can integrate into your story that would deepen/richen it while adding more words?

Sometimes, though, I think short novels are the length they need to be. I read "Chasing the Dead" last night by Joe Schreiber. It's probably around 50 or 55k. It takes place over the span of one night, it's meant to be propulsive, and it's the length it needs to be. A longer book would probably be a different story. I'm not sure if the author had some trouble based on the length, but he's written other manuscripts (including a big, fat fantasy opus), and this is the one that got published.

ccarver30 · Apr 9, 2007

I am having a similar problem with my 53K novel. However, I am finding little nuances that are allowing me to add some new scenes.
For instance, I had my main female character run in to (literally) my main male character. It was obvious why she was in the scene, but not why HE was there and I wanted to make it a little strong than just "chance".
Good luck!!!

JPLangsdorf · Apr 9, 2007

Since we're on the topic of word count, what's the 'standard' upper limit? Beyond what point do editors begin to say 'that's a bit too big'?

I have a ridiculously large novel I've been thinking about breaking down into two or three smaller stories, to try and sell it that way. Any advice in that regard?

alaskamatt17 · Apr 9, 2007

JPLangsdorf, I've seen 120,000 as the upper limit on a lot of publishers' guidelines. Keep in mind that the only publishers whose guidelines I've looked at are those interested in SF and fantasy, which for some reason seem to tend toward the long end of the spectrum.

The best thing to do is read your target market's guidelines. Finding guidelines on the web is pretty easy, and it's a smart thing to do before you start firing off your submissions.

I have the same dilemma as you. The first draft of my Orion's Key saga ran 1,800 double-spaced pages. I'm currently re-writing it with the hopes of pulling that number down to <800. Splitting it into multiple volumes didn't work for me, but I think that's more of a case-by-case judgment. What didn't work for me might work for you.

JPLangsdorf · Apr 9, 2007

Holy damn - 1,800 pages? What is that, 450,000 words? Mine's currently about half that. But that still puts it a little past 200,000 words. I'm in a fantasy-esque genre, so those guidelines are probably solid, but I'll check - thanks.

The multiple volume question came up for me because I realized there's tons of things I can add to my story. I wanted to do a lot more with it than I ultimately did, and it still wound up big. If I split it I could sort things out a little.

Then again, this was my first completed work, so it may just dive into the scratch pile for a while. I'm already about 20,000 words into another novel in a slightly different genre. But that's off-topic. Point is, it's been a learning experience.

Sage · Apr 9, 2007

jst5150 said:
Best advice from sage members of this board and elsewhere is 80K. That's my milestone. More is gravy.

What happened to "less is better for unpublished authors"? I swear that everyone used to say that 80K was a good upper limit, unless it was fantasy (& then it was around 100K). Now it's the lower limit?

jst5150 · Apr 9, 2007

JPLangsdorf said:
Since we're on the topic of word count, what's the 'standard' upper limit? Beyond what point do editors begin to say 'that's a bit too big'?

I have a ridiculously large novel I've been thinking about breaking down into two or three smaller stories, to try and sell it that way. Any advice in that regard?

again, quoting AW sages, and not "they," AW sages have said a couple of things. If you've got 300K words, then that's three books. The advice, I suppose was to break the book up.

jt

Judg · Apr 9, 2007

Jst, you might try writing an "outline" (it can be very informal) of the story from the perspective of the antagonist and of some secondary characters. It might give you some ideas of where things could use some fleshing out in ways that would strengthen the story.

herdon · Apr 9, 2007

A specific word count depends more on genre and the actual story than anything else. For example, most sci-fi/fantasy publishers are going to be thinking along the 80k+ lines but they'd easily accept a 60k comedy.

You could also look for publishers that take shorter works. Some electronic publishers will publish stories of novella length.

alaskamatt17 · Apr 9, 2007

JPLangsdorf said:
Holy damn - 1,800 pages? What is that, 450,000 words?

Yeah, that's about what it was. I split it into three parts, 120,000, 180,000, and 160,000 words, respectively, but it didn't really work as a series (I ended up having to add in unnecessary climactic battles at the ends of the first two parts). I think my problem was cramming too many viewpoint characters into one story. Every time a character started getting really interesting, I would make him or her a viewpoint character; by the end I had 7 different threads all running simultaneously in different parts of the world, with different ties to the central character's story arc. In the rewrite, I'm going to kill off 3 of those characters to keep the story tighter. It still leaves me with 4 distinct storylines, but I think all 4 of them will be interesting all the way through.

For those of you who struggle with meeting the lower word limit, a good way to rack up the words is to start following new characters. I swear, wondering, "Ooh, what's he doing?" is the bane of my existence.

Vomaxx · Apr 9, 2007

Perhaps your main character could stutter?

blacbird · Apr 9, 2007

No matter what you do, don't bet your house on selling the thing.

Length isn't all that matters.

(I had a bad day, rejection central, yet again, sorry).

caw

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