Suffering for Your Art

Birol · Apr 6, 2007

Journalists have been known to go to jail for failing to name their sources.

As a writer, whatever type of writer you are, what consequences are you willing to accept in order to tell your story? Would you go to jail? Suffer public ridicule and ostracization? Be shunned by family, friends, or religious organizations? Face death threats from countries or members of belief systems diametrically opposed to your own?

Where do you personally draw the line in your personal accountability and your willingness to just tell a story? How much do you believe in what you write?

KCathy · Apr 6, 2007

I'm pretty sure I'd say no to all those questions in your second paragraph. I mostly write for personal validation and so other people will respect me. I enjoy it a LOT, but if everyone hated me for it and said I stunk, I wouldn't last long.

I did once write an article during which I found some research I knew the magazine's editor wouldn't like. It wasn't quite as anti-what-I-was-writing-about as her magazine typically is. I was strongly tempted to downplay the research, but put it in even though I strongly suspected it would get the article axed. When she rejected the article, the reason given was that my "voice" wasn't strong enough. Since the same magazine later accepted a different article of mine, it would be melodramatic to call that suffering. Also, she might have just rejected it because she thought the writing was weak. Either way, I still felt good about risking the contract on being honest.

What terrified me about that experience was that it really brought home how a journalist's tone, choice of quotes, and emphasis of different facts can completely, seamlessly distort the truth without the writer actually lying or doing anything prosecutable. I can't watch the news without being keenly aware that I know only what they choose to tell me. How scary is THAT?

Shadow_Ferret · Apr 6, 2007

I simply write fiction, stories, entertainment. I'm not expecting any consequences from that. If I do, I think I'd simply quit. Telling a story isn't worth that kind of trouble.

Claudia Gray · Apr 6, 2007

This is why I write about vampires.

benbradley · Apr 6, 2007

I'm on a mailing list for ex-members of a certain organization where we discuss the negative effects of this organization on its members and on society (99.4% of the public who have heard of the organization believe it is a Good Thing). Every once in a while a current member comes to the list, saying how awful we are to be saying such bad things about such a good, benevolent organization that saves so many lives. One such person actually said I was killing people by stating my views (since the organization "saves lives", warning people away from it is effectively "killing them"). I invited her to call the police, but then she admited that the "killing people" remark was perhaps over the top.

I really don't have a problem saying I'm an atheist (quite a despised creature by many, according to polls!) here "on the Internet", and wouldn't have a problem saying I were gay if that were true, but I really hesitate to "come out of the closet" on this issue. There are maybe a dozen authors who were brave enough to do so. Maybe someday I'll follow in their footsteps.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 7, 2007

Birol said:
Journalists have been known to go to jail for failing to name their sources.

As a writer, whatever type of writer you are, what consequences are you willing to accept in order to tell your story? Would you go to jail? Suffer public ridicule and ostracization? Be shunned by family, friends, or religious organizations? Face death threats from countries or members of belief systems diametrically opposed to your own?

Where do you personally draw the line in your personal accountability and your willingness to just tell a story? How much do you believe in what you write?

Anyone who wouldn't face these things is unlikely to ever be a good writer. With luck, a writer will never have to face them, but I believe willingness to do so is a big part of what makes one writer a success, and another a failure.

maestrowork · Apr 7, 2007

I'm not a journalist. For me, writing is my job, not my entire life. I'm not going to risk my own life, or my family, just to tell a story. I'm not that noble.

Julian Black · Apr 7, 2007

benbradley said:
I'm on a mailing list for ex-members of a certain organization where we discuss the negative effects of this organization on its members and on society (99.4% of the public who have heard of the organization believe it is a Good Thing). [...]

...I really hesitate to "come out of the closet" on this issue. There are maybe a dozen authors who were brave enough to do so. Maybe someday I'll follow in their footsteps.

I think I know which organization you're talking about.

At any rate, I wrote a memoir several years ago about my experiences in a self-help group. I went into it seeking help for a specific problem, but the group itself turned out to be very cult-like. Their methods were nothing more than crackpot faith healing. Yet even after I realized that participation in the group was only making me crazier, I had a hard time pulling away from it. It took me over a year to do so, and another couple of years to get over the experience.

The memoir's about 25,000 words--too short for a book, too long for a magazine article. Every once in a while, I think about revising it into a book-length MS and shopping it around. Each time I do that, I stop and ask myself if I'm ready for the kind of attention it could potentially bring, and so far, each time, the answer has been "No." It's not that I can't deal with the hate mail and threats I'd no doubt get from members of that group, but it would take so much energy to do so. And I'd rather spend my time writing my novels and enjoying my life instead of dealing with angry, unbalanced people.

calamity · Apr 7, 2007

As a writer, whatever type of writer you are, what consequences are you willing to accept in order to tell your story? Would you go to jail? Suffer public ridicule and ostracization? Be shunned by family, friends, or religious organizations? Face death threats from countries or members of belief systems diametrically opposed to your own?

In my memoir, IF it gets published and people actually read it, I most likely WILL suffer some public ridicule and ostracization. Not so much by my family, but their friends will definately look at me differently. I've taken all of this into account and I would be a liar if I said it didn't make me nervous, but I'm still going to write it, try and publish it. I think risk is half the energy. When you really start pushing the limits on what can be told, I think it opens up something inside of you, this need to dig really deep and be absolutely fearless about what you might find. At least that has been my experience.

Rolling Thunder · Apr 7, 2007

I got a paper cut while editing. Does that count as suffering?

Sean D. Schaffer · Apr 7, 2007

maestrowork said:
I'm not a journalist. For me, writing is my job, not my entire life. I'm not going to risk my own life, or my family, just to tell a story. I'm not that noble.

Indeed. If my life or family's lives are in danger because of my stories, I think I'd just opt out. I'm not going to endanger my or someone else's life in order to tell a story.

I would, however, be willing to suffer other forms of 'punishment' for my art, such as humiliation -- which I have suffered in some cases -- or religious intolerance of my work.

But to lose my life or to have a family member die because of my work is not an extent I would go to in order to tell a story.

icerose · Apr 7, 2007

Thank goodness for fiction. I'm just here to tell stories.

However, I would never put my family's lives into danger.

Birol · Apr 7, 2007

Julian Black said:
I think I know which organization you're talking about.

I wish I did. I hate not knowing somthing.

Rllgthunder said:
I got a paper cut while editing. Does that count as suffering?

No.

ClaudiaGray said:
This is why I write about vampires.

Explain, please.

Shadow_Ferret said:
I simply write fiction, stories, entertainment. I'm not expecting any consequences from that. If I do, I think I'd simply quit. Telling a story isn't worth that kind of trouble.

icerose said:
Thank goodness for fiction. I'm just here to tell stories.

However, I would never put my family's lives into danger.

But isn't there Truth in fiction? What would happen if you antagonized someone unexpectedly? Would you ask the publisher to pull the story then or issue an apology?

Aprylwriter · Apr 7, 2007

I think all art contains some form of suffering, especially writing and painting, like Vincent Van Gogh and Edgar Allan Poe. Some people write because they suffer; others write for different reasons.

If I had to suffer for my writing-and I have, but not in an extreme way-then I would, as long as it is for a worthy cause. Like trying to end poverty, for example.

I write mostly fiction and poetry, and the only thing I suffer now is the occasional feelings of loneliness and isolation. My family, and even some of my friends, do not understand why I want to be a writer.

Apryl

Parkinsonsd · Apr 8, 2007

A lot of people, writers in the past, writers I know today, believe they wrote well because they suffered. They knew depsondency, dejection, depression, all the good "d" words. Destitute. Drunk. Maybe the drunk comes from being destitute. The point is suffering for your art is believed by many to assist in making better art.

Is journalism art?

mdin · Apr 8, 2007

If I promised a source they would remain anonymous, I would go to jail to protect that. I would probably lose everything doing it, but I would do it.

Luckily I don't ever see myself in that situation. The most suffering I do is living off of 4-5 hours of sleep a night for weeks at a time, but you get used to that after a while.

Tanagra · Apr 8, 2007

Anyone who wouldn't face these things is unlikely to ever be a good writer. With luck, a writer will never have to face them, but I believe willingness to do so is a big part of what makes one writer a success, and another a failure.

While I do agree with this, I don't think we can turn it into a rule. Good books entertain people, great books entertain people and make them think. And, sadly, some people seem to have sworn off thinking.

Maybe it's a matter of cultural differences, but I would die for my writing. Writing is my life. If I could make only one person think, for a second only, about something that I believe matters, well, then I would know I haven't lived for nothing and I would be ready to die.

A lot of people, writers in the past, writers I know today, believe they wrote well because they suffered.

...and not only the writers, but the people around them believe that as well. I don't think it's true, though. I believe those people suffered because they made great art, not made great art because they suffered. When you have a passion like that, you tend to ignore everything else (frivolous things, like eating, or sleeping...) Art is an odd drug.

Is journalism art?

Depends on how it's done... But I'd say yes.

Claudia Gray · Apr 8, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaudiaGray
This is why I write about vampires.

Explain, please.

I mean that nobody's going to assume that I'm reporting fact about vampires, as I'm pretty obviously not pulling from true experiences. My fiction is on the very, very fictional side of fiction. Any of my personal acquaintances who thought that my works were about them would not need apologies; they would need psychiatrists.

To answer the question more seriously: If I had a story that needed to be heard, Woodward and Bernstein style, whether in fiction or nonfiction, I'd like to think that I'd go to the mat for it. The fact is, I don't have a story like that. I do not have a long-lost family secret to divulge, a political scandal to uncover or any philosophical/religious insights to impart. I simply have stories to tell. That's reason enough.

And I don't think suffering makes art great. There have been plenty of great writers who endured a lot in order to bring their works into being, as well as people who turned tremendous adversity into art, and I am sometimes awed by that. But there have also been writers who were born to wealth and privilege whose works were popular and celebrated (Henry James, Edith Wharton), and their work is in no sense inferior because of that. Greatness may make suffering worthwhile, but suffering doesn't make greatness more likely.

Devil Ledbetter · Apr 8, 2007

My novel is sympathetic to late-term abortion, casual marijuana use and atheism. One of the characters slams Oprah (oops, there goes my chance of getting on Oprah's Book Club -- but you know what, it was worth it because it was his truth). Same character thinks the Grateful Dead suck.

So yeah, some people are going to hate me. I'm okay with that.

As far as suffering goes, my novel has a scene where a character is barefoot in an ice storm. Well, we had an ice storm, so I decided to see what that felt like and make my scene as authentic as possible. Walked all the way around my house barefoot on ice. It hurts, people. Worse than you can imagine. It makes your bones ache all the way up to your thighs.

Sassenach · Apr 8, 2007

--

Devil Ledbetter said:
My novel is sympathetic to late-term abortion, casual marijuana use and atheism. One of the characters slams Oprah (oops, there goes my chance of getting on Oprah's Book Club -- but you know what, it was worth it because it was his truth). Same character thinks the Grateful Dead suck.

So yeah, some people are going to hate me. I'm okay with that.

But...you've got the atheist doper abortionist market sewed up!

Devil Ledbetter · Apr 8, 2007

But...you've got the atheist doper abortionist market sewed up!

Hannibal sold. The Vampire Lestat sold. Wasn't just cannibals and vampires buying up those books.

calamity · Apr 8, 2007

I think the whole "suffering for your art" thing is a big cliche. There's a difference between someone suffering because that's what life throws at them and someone who seeks out misery for subject matter. In the former example, the suffering may help the writer because it helps us grow emotionally, gain empathy, and it changes our perspective. But the latter is such a self-conscious choice that I can only imagine self-conscious or somewhat self-deluded work arising from it. Sure, there are some writers who seem to have gone looking for misery -- Simone Weil and Thoreau are two off the top of my head, but what they did (working in a factory and living in the woods) was also part of their obsession, and really, one could argue that they got pleasure from this type of self-inflicted suffering (if you could even call Walden suffering--some wouldn't). Besides that, we ALL suffer. It's the human condition. We really don't have to look very far to hurt--there's enough misery in this world for all of us ten-fold without having to create any new pain for ourselves.

CheshireCat · Apr 8, 2007

maestrowork said:
I'm not a journalist. For me, writing is my job, not my entire life. I'm not going to risk my own life, or my family, just to tell a story. I'm not that noble.

You and me both, Maestro.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how the situations listed would pertain to novelists or writers of fiction at all. A journalist, sure. A non-fiction author with a controversial story to tell is also possible.

But a novelist?

I make up stories for a living. Sometimes the plots or characterizations touch on tricky or disturbing things, but with "Novel" stamped on the cover, why would anyone care?

As for the whole concept of suffering for art, well, I just don't get it. I went through some tough times in the early years, definitely financial hardships because I sure as hell didn't land a seven-figure deal right off the bat, but suffer? Not so much.

Why would anyone believe suffering would produce better storytellers or greater literature? Or would somehow "test" or prove our worthiness to do this work?

That makes no more sense to me than believing it's necessary for a talented storyteller to kill someone in order to write about murder, or fly in a spaceship in order to write about space travel, or sit down to dinner with two elves and a wizard before they can write about fantasy.

Would I still be a writer if suffering physical or emotional hardships in order to do so had been required? I have no idea.

And now I'll go on and read the rest of the thread ...

DamaNegra · Apr 8, 2007

Just one week ago, I was in potential danger of being chucked out of school for not wanting to hide the truth. The whole thing has been covered up, and now it's too late to effectively do something about it. The 'high commands' just passed our complaints away as inventions of our young, twisted minds and let us go.

If I had another chance to make the truth know, would I risk it again? Sure I would. Maybe I'm too noble. Maybe I should care more about myself. I don't know. All I know is that I can't stand watching injustice while doing nothing. Yes, I would be willing to suffer for my art. Not so much to let my dear ones be hurt, but I'm pretty sure that if I saw a chance of them being hurt, I would shun them away instead of quitting.

benbradley · Apr 8, 2007

CheshireCat said:
You and me both, Maestro.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how the situations listed would pertain to novelists or writers of fiction at all. A journalist, sure. A non-fiction author with a controversial story to tell is also possible.

But a novelist?

The name Salman Rushdie and the novel "The Satanic Verses" comes to mind.

Suffering for Your Art

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