Just Go With the Flow

Azure Skye · Apr 2, 2007

The concept of "flow" has been on my mind a lot lately. When I look at my ms I stop and ask myself, what exactly is this flow I've heard so much about? And do I do it? Sometimes I see spots and I'll nod my head in approval and others...meh. Then I wonder, how did I do it in this scene but can't seem to do it with that scene?

What exactly is flow? I'm thinking that since I'm asking this question that I either don't have the knack for writing that flows or I'm not grasping a concept that I might be able to fix.

When you write a scene/paragraph/whatever how do you get it to flow? What things do you make an effort to do? What do you avoid? How does one create prose that flows like water?

victoriastrauss · Apr 2, 2007

Azura Skye said:
What exactly is flow? I'm thinking that since I'm asking this question that I either don't have the knack for writing that flows or I'm not grasping a concept that I might be able to fix.

If so, you aren't alone. I have no clue either (in real life, that is; I know what "flow" the buzzword means). I suspect it's one of those things, like block, that some people experience, or believe they experience, and others don't.

- Victoria

PeeDee · Apr 2, 2007

I don't generally try to get my dialog to flow or anything, in that in real life, our conversations largely fail to flow. I'd rather have:

"So the basking shark, which is some sixty meters long, just swims along with its mouth open...!"

"Wild!"

"I know. But anyway, about Tony. What are we gonna do, Johnny? We let him go to the cops, we're screwed."

"Feed him to a basking shark?"

"Funny. Want a drink?"

"Sure. Make it strong. We're gonna have to kill Tony."

...

I dont' worry about it, though. I'm not sure why anyone would think it doesn't exist, but I'm sure someone does. It does exist. It's how your reader goes through a scene, and then goes into the next scene without getting jarred out of the story. Like good punctuation, it's invisible when it's done right, and visible when it screws up your reader.

I say don't worry about it. Odds are, if you look at two scenes and don't think "They flow so well together," then it's fine. It's invisible. If your jump from one scene to another seems bizarre and weird...then you have a problem. Make it more natural and you're fine.

(how do you make it more natural? I suspect it's instinctive. You re-write it until the voice in your head stops saying "That doesn't make sense.")

MidnightMuse · Apr 2, 2007

I always took "flow" to mean your story moves along nicely, with no jarring parts that either stop, fall flat, make no sense or take the reader right out of the whole thing. Something you can pick up, read straight through, and never feel you had to read your way over a speed-bump to get back to the good bits. :Shrug:

Birol · Apr 2, 2007

I'm mostly with Midnight Muse. "Flow" of the story is part of the rhythm, I think, but whereas rhythm refers to the individual words and how they react and interact together, flow is more about the overall picture. The flow -- and bear with me as I think this through -- is the course the river follows from the lake where it originates to the ocean whereas the rhythm is the waves rocking against the shore.

PeeDee · Apr 2, 2007

Rhythm is how the song works, by itself.

Flow is how the album fits together.

Birol · Apr 2, 2007

You said it so much better than I did, Pete!

Azure Skye · Apr 2, 2007

PeeDee said:
Rhythm is how the song works, by itself.

Flow is how the album fits together.

Azure Skye · Apr 2, 2007

So now that we have what flow is, how do you create it? Or is this one of those things that sort of happen without you being aware of it.

Maybe I need to quit over analyzing my work. You do realize that "anal" is part of analyzing. That's anal retentive for all of those who were thinking other things. You know who you are.

Stew21 · Apr 2, 2007

I'm not exactly sure how to go about "getting flow", Azura, but I do know that when I over analyze work, I have a tendency to kill all good. I can hack up the most innocent of words. I can make them stale and useless in attempts at correcting rhythm and flow.
perhaps one of the best ways to go about it is to write a quick something else. I do that sometimes in here in the 5 minutes with a blank screen thread in games and prompts forum. I let loose on something inconsequential and let it open me up a bit so I can hit the work in progress all warmed up. I also do that with poetry. I can kill poetry with too many edits too. If I have been at one for too long I leave it alone (sometimes for weeks) and go back to it. Other times I write several impromptu pieces between edits to get warmed up and get fresh eyes then go back.
Take some warm up swings away from the plate and step back in the box. See if that helps and try not to over analyze your work. I know, at least for me it is a real killer!

heatheringemar · Apr 2, 2007

"Flow," when used in reference to a MS., is an evil word.

My creative writing professor told me so. :tongue

Stew21 · Apr 2, 2007

firefingers said:
"Flow," when used in reference to a MS., is an evil word.

My creative writing professor told me so.

did your professor qualify that statement? I'd be curious what s/he meant.

pconsidine · Apr 2, 2007

In my mind, thinking about "flow" is a guaranteed way to never achieve it. I think of it as one of those things that sets natural-born storytellers apart and it's not limited to writing. I'm sure everyone knows at least one person whose stories about their wild weekend in Cabo or the old lady who cut them off in traffic that morning are endlessly entertaining to listen to. That's flow.

From a writing perspective, what I consider "flow" is an organic thing that comes naturally when you're writing with confidence about characters you know intimately. A pretty tall order in itself, but still something that can be done repeatedly.

heatheringemar · Apr 2, 2007

Stew21 said:
did your professor qualify that statement? I'd be curious what s/he meant.

In that particular lecture, she was driving at being technical. "Flow" is vague (as evidenced by the first post in this thread). There are better, more precise terms to pinpoint what you are looking for in prose when you refer to "flow."

Having a story with great "flow" could mean any number of things. It could mean the voice is solid and matches throughout. It could refer to the particular style of the piece. It could mean conformity of the characters, events, and setting. It could even mean that the structure is highly polished, or it could refer to the type of vocabulary/word choice. The emotional feel of the piece, the tone, etc. etc.

She was trying to get us to think about those things as individual parts to the whole, and in doing so, getting us to be mindful of the craft.

Stew21 · Apr 2, 2007

KTC said:
I see it as organic too...something that cannot be faked. It either exists in the work or it doesn't. To purposely manufacture it is futile...the reader would see the effort.

agreed, which is why I hack it to hell when I try to fix it.

KTC · Apr 2, 2007

Your knife is very sharp though. You slay your darlings well.

Stew21 · Apr 2, 2007

firefingers said:
In that particular lecture, she was driving at being technical. "Flow" is vague (as evidenced by the first post in this thread). There are better, more precise terms to pinpoint what you are looking for in prose when you refer to "flow."

Having a story with great "flow" could mean any number of things. It could mean the voice is solid and matches throughout. It could refer to the particular style of the piece. It could mean conformity of the characters, events, and setting. It could even mean that the structure is highly polished, or it could refer to the type of vocabulary/word choice. The emotional feel of the piece, the tone, etc. etc.

She was trying to get us to think about those things as individual parts to the whole, and in doing so, getting us to be mindful of the craft.

This is really insightful.Thanks for taking the time to answer so thoroughly (I see you paid attention in class that day.)

What's most interesting about this, is that it looks like the prof was saying there are actual "measurable and quanifiable" things to focus on that can be controlled (therefore practiced? perfected? graded?) and I see the point. it is a technician's point of view. I know some poets like that, true technicians of the craft. I tend toward more organic. so that unquantifiable flow is something I strive for as though it was "real". I suppose that is where the creative element comes to the writing? I like that "certain something factor" in writing that makes it work. I don't want to know what put it there so I can do it again. I want it to be created there. I like the music of words put together and a solid metaphor to make it clear and unique. I like a paragraph that takes my breath away and a story that stays with me as though I knew its characters as well as dear friends. Sure it can be achieved through measurable quantifiable means, some of those things can be measured, studied, perfected, but I rather like walking into it, and feeling awe when it is there.

Trish

TheIT · Apr 2, 2007

In the novel draft I just finished (boy, that still feels good to say

), writing the beginning was like pulling teeth. I kept stumbling forward, scene after scene with vague ideas of where the story was heading, with some sections being relatively easy to write and other sections not so easy. About two thirds of the way through, I finally figured out what the ending should be. After that, I just wrote. I hit a few more stumbling blocks but those were comparatively easy to sort out.

It was like hitting critical mass. The weight of the characters, events, and ideas in the beginning of the story kept my pen moving. When I look at my notebooks I see continuous handwritten text with very few strike outs and arrows. I didn't always know what was going to happen three scenes away, but if I could get through the current scene, the next came into focus, and so on. Each new scene pulled the story forward and flowed out of what had been written before.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 2, 2007

Flow

Flow is no mystery. It means only that the story moves along at a good pace, that the writing itself isn't choppy, and that one thing leads to another with seamless transitions.

How do you create it? You read the story, some have to read it aloud, and if you have a good ear, the places where it doesn't flow will growl. You keep rewriting these places until they purr.

victoriastrauss · Apr 2, 2007

Ah. Y'all are talking about pace.

Where I've seen "flow" used, it's to indicate that apparently blissful state you get into when writing when you don't remember the outside world exists, time stops, and angels sing in your ear. Well, maybe not the last one. I can't say I've ever encountered "flow" used in the sense that you all are discussing.

- Victoria

scarletpeaches · Apr 2, 2007

Being in 'flow' is just a fancy way of saying you're in the zone. (Ask the hypnotherapists and psychologists).

I've experienced this a couple of times. I can't predict when it'll happen, but strangely enough, it only ever happens after I sit my arse down and...start writing!

Jamesaritchie · Apr 2, 2007

firefingers said:
In that particular lecture, she was driving at being technical. "Flow" is vague (as evidenced by the first post in this thread). There are better, more precise terms to pinpoint what you are looking for in prose when you refer to "flow."

Having a story with great "flow" could mean any number of things. It could mean the voice is solid and matches throughout. It could refer to the particular style of the piece. It could mean conformity of the characters, events, and setting. It could even mean that the structure is highly polished, or it could refer to the type of vocabulary/word choice. The emotional feel of the piece, the tone, etc. etc.

She was trying to get us to think about those things as individual parts to the whole, and in doing so, getting us to be mindful of the craft.

Not to disagree too much, but I don't think there's anything at all vague about flow, or a better word for it. Flow problems can be caused by several things, but flow is the best possible word for the problem caused. Guess we just had different professors with different opinions.

But flow, at least the way I've been taught, is specific, easily defined, and usually fairly easy to spot and to fix. Flow is a problem for the ear, not the eye.

Birol · Apr 2, 2007

victoriastrauss said:
Where I've seen "flow" used, it's to indicate that apparently blissful state you get into when writing when you don't remember the outside world exists, time stops, and angels sing in your ear. Well, maybe not the last one.

I've always heard "zone" or "zoning" described for that state. I have a love-hate relationship with it. You lose track of time, your sleep schedule goes to plot, you forget to eat, until you're so worn down you can't even think in a straight line. Make no mistake, Victoria, the only angels involved are of the fallen variety.

heatheringemar · Apr 2, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
Not to disagree too much, but I don't think there's anything at all vague about flow, or a better word for it. Flow problems can be caused by several things, but flow is the best possible word for the problem caused. Guess we just had different professors with different opinions.

That's a very good point to make. Everyone has a different word for the same thing, or different meanings for the same word!

maestrowork · Apr 2, 2007

I have no idea what flow is, but my feeling is that it's a combination of things -- how it sounds (rhythm, etc.), pace, and plot movement. I think the biggest problem is plot movement -- something just stops the plot in its track. Here's a good flow that involves a flashback:

He does something, and then he ponders. Years ago he did that, too, but he learned. So he thinks about it some more and realizes the mistakes he's made, and he changes his action.

There's a logical plot movement and the story flows well from one point to another, even with a flashback stuck in the middle. The plot never really stops. It flows through.

Now, look at the following "flow":

He does something. Years ago his mother said something mean to him and he went to school by himself, and something awful happened. All the other kids didn't like him. He realizes the mistakes he's made, and he changes his action.

Here, suddenly the current plot stops, and the flashback takes over, but they doesn't flow well together. It's as if there's rock in the middle of the story. Eventually the plot moves again, but the flow has been disrupted.

Pace, rhythm, dialogue, etc. all contribute to flow, but I think plot movement is the biggest problem. When you have scenes, or scene without a scene, that jumps around or abruptly, you stop the story from flowing.

Just Go With the Flow

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