Something King Said

Edward G · Mar 25, 2007

In On Writing (which I am currently reading) Stephen King says that he doesn't like to outline a plot, but rather just goes for it from an idea or a character and let's the story develop. The only problem is I really think it shows, negatively speaking, in his work, especially the recent stuff.

Ironically, he says he did plot The Dead Zone, and he really liked that book, and to be quite honest, so did I.

I'm not so sure it's wise to just wing a story. I mean, surely one has to plan a little if they want the twists, the ironies, and then ending to come out right...right?

What do you all think?

scarletpeaches · Mar 25, 2007

I predict this will turn into another flamey, ten-page war of the Outliners versus the Pantsers.

Outlining isn't necessary. Some people do it, some don't. I'm one of those who don't. When it comes to twists and turns, you could also argue that if you plot them down to the last detail, you as the writer know they're coming so it would show in your writing and make it predictable.

I've read a few King books (Desperation, Bag of Bones, Dreamcatcher, On Writing, Rose Madder) and happen to agree with him on this. I don't outline, 'cause I don't want to and I don't need to.

Whatever works, works.

Second thought, that says it all, so lock thread, thanks.

OverTheHills&FarAway · Mar 25, 2007

Depends on the writer, depends on the story. Some story concepts are so "big" you can just jump off and see where it goes. That can be fun. Some stories you want to have things straight before you start, to keep rewrites to a minimum.

Depends. That's about it.

scarletpeaches · Mar 25, 2007

I'm strongly against outlines. For me. I understand other people like them. I feel they're too restrictive. The details, for me, are ironed out during the edit.

That said, I may try outlining at some point for the same reason I do many things - to see if I can.

I'd like to be diplomatic and say there's no right or wrong here, but I rule, so what I say is correct and if you disagree you're a buttmunching wanksplat.

PeeDee · Mar 25, 2007

Here's what I, and Stephen King, both think: Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

THat is to say, if you need to outline, outline. If you don't, don't.

The Dead Zone was a good book. So was Misery, so was Cell, so was The Dark Half, so was Cujo, so was a lot of his books except for Maximum Overdrive.

I don't outline or plot, because I don't like to. Unless, of course, I need to. And then I do.

Easy as that.

emeraldcite · Mar 25, 2007

I think there's another thread on outlining or organic plots. I'd dare say that King does pretty well with organic plots.

If you dig around on other writers' websites, you'll see that some are very successful and swear by an outline and some are very successful with organic plots.

It all depends on what works for you. I think well-planned plots are nice, tight, and fast-paced but sometimes lack spontaneity, whereas organic plots can really "feel out" character and events.

Of course, this isn't a truism, but more a feeling that comes from reading different kinds of books. Sometimes, you can't tell the difference between the two, but I can't say that the way King writes ever did him wrong.

Sage · Mar 25, 2007

I never outline, but I usually have a good idea of where I'm going with the novel. However, I am open to better ideas that present themselves to me while I'm writing, & with an outline I'd probably be less likely to deviate. The fun thing about winging it is when you find out the twists that you've hinted at even before you knew it was coming. I had laid the groundwork perfectly for a twist that didn't occur to me for over half of my last novel, & that was very exciting, especially since everyone who reads the novel says they were surprised, but that it made perfect sense based on information they had in the story.

maestrowork · Mar 25, 2007

GordonJerome said:
I'm not so sure it's wise to just wing a story. I mean, surely one has to plan a little if they want the twists, the ironies, and then ending to come out right...right?

What do you all think?

Not necessarily. It's the age-old debate of outline vs. organic. Do what's right for you as a writer and what works for a story. There are always pros and cons in anything. There's no absolute. If you think outlining works better for you, go for it. For King, organic plotting is better. And you don't need to plan it ahead of time to have the twists and ironies and surprise ending.

I plotted my first book, and later found out that the story changed anyway. With my current WIP, I chose to do it organically, and boy does it have twists and turns that, I hope, is going to surprise and delight my readers just as much as they delighted me. So who knows?

I think it's a silly thing to dismiss one over another. Do what works -- that really is the golden rule.

CheshireCat · Mar 25, 2007

We've talked about this. Recently.

As Scarlet says, the debate can get hot and flamey, and it doesn't matter because you do what works for you.

Period.

Gordon, are you just bored?

scarletpeaches · Mar 25, 2007

Did I just coin a new word? Flamey?

Yay me!

RG570 · Mar 25, 2007

I do both depending ont he situation, and I think "organic" is a dumb term for those who don't outline.

It's not like when you outline, it's contrived and synthetic. It's the same process, just done at a different point. I've had many twists and turns in my outlined novels, and I'd just love to see a double blind test to see if anyone can really tell the difference between outlined and non-outlined novels.

scarletpeaches · Mar 25, 2007

Organic is a term that fits. The novel grows without planning or pre-structuring.

As for the question of does an outline mean your novel is contrived? Well, yes.

con·trive /kənˈtraɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhn-trahyv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -trived, -triv·ing.
–verb (used with object) 1. to plan with ingenuity; devise; invent: The author contrived a clever plot.
2. to bring about or effect by a plan, scheme, or the like; manage: He contrived to gain their votes.
3. to plot (evil, treachery, etc.).
–verb (used without object) 4. to form designs; plan.
5. to plot.

Synthetic? Well all novels are synthetic. Their stories are not real and that's what synthetic means.

ChaosTitan · Mar 25, 2007

I'm experiencing some deja vu here.... :e2hammer:

Sage · Mar 25, 2007

scarletpeaches said:
Did I just coin a new word? Flamey?

Nope, that word's been used, at the very least, in Buffy. Then it was an "extra-flamey" candle.

BTW, the recent conversation on this (outlining, not flamey-ness) can be found here: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56259
To be fair, it's on page 7 of this forum.

scarletpeaches · Mar 25, 2007

pepperlandgirl · Mar 25, 2007

The Dead Zone was a good book. So was Misery, so was Cell, so was The Dark Half, so was Cujo, so was a lot of his books except for Maximum Overdrive.

Maximum Overdrive wasn't a book.

The short story Trucks wasn't too bad. Sort of a silly premise, but I think the underlying theme was scary enough.

As for the issue of the thread--I'm a complete "pantser." My writing partner needs an outline. We've found a compromise that works for us, and more importantly, works for the story. That's the important part--doing what works.

CheshireCat · Mar 25, 2007

scarletpeaches said:
Did I just coin a new word? Flamey?

Yay me!

I like Flamey. Gotta say, though, I think Buffy coined it.

Not absolutely positive, mind you. (I think I'd worry about me if I was absolutely positive about it!)

We'll give you the credit for it tonight. It's a good word.

CheshireCat · Mar 25, 2007

Sage said:
Nope, that word's been used, at the very least, in Buffy. Then it was an "extra-flamey" candle.

BTW, the recent conversation on this (outlining, not flamey-ness) can be found here: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56259
To be fair, it's on page 7 of this forum.

Ha! Thought I remembered.

I've still got a head full of Buffy-speak (she said apologetically).

scarletpeaches · Mar 25, 2007

So I've done knob-jockey and flamey. Two words in one week.

As my real name's Nichola, I think we need a NICKtionary. I'll start a thread soon.

Deleted member 42 · Mar 25, 2007

RG570 said:
I do both depending ont he situation, and I think "organic" is a dumb term for those who don't outline.

Learn to live with organic, if not love it; it's been the accepted term since Samuel Taylor Coleridge used it.

wordmonkey · Mar 25, 2007

scarletpeaches said:
As my real name's Nichola, I think we need a NICKtionary. I'll start a thread soon.

Would that be a Webster's or an Oxford English Nicktionary?

I don't plot because I wanna be surprised by the ending. I hate it when I know how it's all gonna finish by page 50 when I'm reading. And since I'm reading what I'm writing while I'm writing, it's the same thing.

If I can keep myself in the dark until the final scene, I've done well!

RG570 · Mar 25, 2007

scarletpeaches said:
Organic is a term that fits. The novel grows without planning or pre-structuring.

As for the question of does an outline mean your novel is contrived? Well, yes.

con·trive /kənˈtraɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhn-trahyv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -trived, -triv·ing.
–verb (used with object) 1. to plan with ingenuity; devise; invent: The author contrived a clever plot.
2. to bring about or effect by a plan, scheme, or the like; manage: He contrived to gain their votes.
3. to plot (evil, treachery, etc.).
–verb (used without object) 4. to form designs; plan.
5. to plot.

Synthetic? Well all novels are synthetic. Their stories are not real and that's what synthetic means.

If we're going to split hairs on it . . . if all novels are synthetic, organic cannot be used to describe any of them.

scarletpeaches · Mar 25, 2007

Organic = without a plan
Synthetic = fake

All novels are fake, that is, they describe events that didn't really happen. Whether they are organic or not, depends on how the authors work.

Just accept that I rule, therefore you're wrong and owe me some chocolate by way of apology for contradicting me.

Sage · Mar 25, 2007

scarletpeaches said:
Organic = without a plan
Synthetic = fake

All novels are fake, that is, they describe events that didn't really happen. Whether they are organic or not, depends on how the authors work.

Just accept that I rule, therefore you're wrong and owe me some chocolate by way of apology for contradicting me.

Better be organic chocolate

scarletpeaches · Mar 25, 2007

I shall outline my chocolate preferences:

1) Kitkat
2) Aero - must be mint
3) Galaxy
4) Cadbury's white chocolate Dream bar
5) Umm...heck, anything else will do.

Something King Said

Edward G

scarletpeaches

OverTheHills&FarAway

McNifico

scarletpeaches

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

emeraldcite

Art is Resistance

Sage

Our Lady of Parentheticals

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

CheshireCat

Mostly purring. Mostly.

scarletpeaches

RG570

scarletpeaches

ChaosTitan

Around

Sage

Our Lady of Parentheticals

scarletpeaches

pepperlandgirl

American Aquarium Drinker

CheshireCat

Mostly purring. Mostly.

CheshireCat

Mostly purring. Mostly.

scarletpeaches

Deleted member 42

wordmonkey

ook

RG570

scarletpeaches

Sage

Our Lady of Parentheticals

scarletpeaches