INDENT FIRST PARAGRAPH?

COOLORANGEFREEZE · Mar 24, 2007

Here is a basic question that has to do with proper writing and basic appearance.

In the first paragraph of every chapter do you indent several spaces in or don't you indent it at all? I think it looks better not indented but with my MS I have indented them to appear "correct".

Elodie-Caroline · Mar 24, 2007

I always use five spaces to indent all paragraphs. But I have to be honest, when there's an ongoing dialogue in my work, I leave a double line space as well as the indent in-between each person talking, otherwise it looks just plain old messy to me.

Elodie

Jamesaritchie · Mar 24, 2007

Indent

COOLORANGEFREEZE said:
Here is a basic question that has to do with proper writing and basic appearance.

In the first paragraph of every chapter do you indent several spaces in or don't you indent it at all? I think it looks better not indented but with my MS I have indented them to appear "correct".

You always indent. A manuscript is not a published book, so you format it for editing, not appearance.

johnzakour · Mar 24, 2007

I agree with JAR.

Will Lavender · Mar 24, 2007

Actually, you do not indent.

After what is commonly referred to as a "block," the next paragraph following the block begins flush to the left margin.

The same rule applies in letter writing. In a common letter format, the structure is:

________________________________
________________________________
________________________________

________________________________
________________________________
________________________________

Same rule applies in any prose. Chapter breaks, section breaks, after "fades" or double-enters -- the next sentence should begin all the way to the left.

However, I'm not sure it truly matters. This is stuff the typesetter or editor will address. But I'm, for some reason, tremendously anal about it.

DeadlyAccurate · Mar 24, 2007

Where are you getting this information, Will? Because I've never, ever heard anyone say a manuscript should look anything other than this way.

johnzakour · Mar 24, 2007

Will Lavender said:
But I'm, for some reason, tremendously anal about it.

Yeah, no good can come from that.... ;-)

I give my manuscript to my publishers in the format shown by DA above.

I leave the rest up to the typesetters...

NTG · Mar 24, 2007

This is one of those evolutions of style that has intrigued (and frustrated) me for a long time. The block style has become a standard, so much so that the e-mail programs I am familiar with don't even want me to indent. If you hit the tab key you get flipped right out of the text editor. So I do a kludge by using spaces. Usually just three.
This Bboard software does the same thing, by the way. But it's even worse. If I put the three spaces in (as I did when I typed this, knowing it was pointless), they just get ignored, and the text still displays flush left at the beginning of a new paragraph. See?
Put me down as an old-timer who prefers indented paragraphs. But it doesn't really matter. The publisher will typeset the book however he/she wants to. And if you're smart, you'll format your manuscript final draft the way she/he asks you to, whether or not it's the way you prefer.
But at least you have the option of formatting your manuscript any darn way you please while you're working on it. :tongue

You can always do a global search-and-replace later.

Jamesaritchie · Mar 24, 2007

Will Lavender said:
Actually, you do not indent.

After what is commonly referred to as a "block," the next paragraph following the block begins flush to the left margin.

The same rule applies in letter writing. In a common letter format, the structure is:

________________________________
________________________________
________________________________

________________________________
________________________________
________________________________

Same rule applies in any prose. Chapter breaks, section breaks, after "fades" or double-enters -- the next sentence should begin all the way to the left.

However, I'm not sure it truly matters. This is stuff the typesetter or editor will address. But I'm, for some reason, tremendously anal about it.

Not for any publisher I've written for, magazine or book, and not for any editor I know. They all want every last paragraph indented in the manuscript.

Seriously, show me any format guidelines anywhere that say not to indent everything.

maestrowork · Mar 24, 2007

Proper, standard manuscript format: indent every paragraph (five spaces), and no extra space between paragraphs.

NTG · Mar 24, 2007

maestrowork said:
Proper, standard manuscript format: indent every paragraph (five spaces), and no extra space between paragraphs.

Sure enough. Must be a Microsoft thing. . .

Q: How many MS engineers does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None. They just change the standard to darkness.

scribbler1382 · Mar 24, 2007

That has to be the longest reach for an opportunity to take a swipe at Microsoft I've ever seen, since nobody was talking about software. I'm impressed.

Siddow · Mar 24, 2007

Will, that's great for a business letter, but I believe the OP was referring to manuscripts. Which are spaced, indented, and ragged on the right just like the link in DA's post.

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 24, 2007

maestrowork said:
Proper, standard manuscript format: indent every paragraph (five spaces), and no extra space between paragraphs.

5 spaces? Can't I use Word's default indent?

And I indent EVERY SINGLE PARAGRAPH. Not just the first one of a chapter. I never heard of only indenting that first paragraph. Nor have I ever heard of block style paragraphs for the whole thing.

The query letter, yes, but not the manuscript.

Will Lavender · Mar 24, 2007

Siddow said:
Will, that's great for a business letter, but I believe the OP was referring to manuscripts. Which are spaced, indented, and ragged on the right just like the link in DA's post.

Interesting point.

I guess we're into a discussion now about the rules of manuscript writing versus the rules of published texts. And I suppose you and others are right: the rules, especially pertaining to margins, are probably different. (Maybe even the word "rule" is a slippery one here.)

Carry on.

NTG · Mar 24, 2007

scribbler1382 said:
That has to be the longest reach for an opportunity to take a swipe at Microsoft I've ever seen, since nobody was talking about software. I'm impressed.

Ah, but I WAS talking about software, a few posts earlier. Software that won't even LET you indent. However, I plead guilty to using Microsoft as a generic whipping boy for computer software. It's just so much fun. . . :tongue

blacbird · Mar 24, 2007

There's no point in the writer worrying about the formatting of published texts. That gets taken care of by the publisher. All the writer needs to be concerned about is the formatting of the submission manuscript. We have an entire sticky thread devoted to that subject, and regarding indentation and margins, there's about a 100% consensus standard: Indent all paragraphs, double-space text but do not separate paragraphs by an extra blank line. Do include an extra line, preferably with a centered symbol, to indicate a scene break. Do not justify the right margin. At least 1" margins all around, 24-25 text lines per standard page. Courier or Times New Roman font. That's pretty much it, for basics.

caw

scarletpeaches · Mar 24, 2007

I never indent the first paragraph of a chapter, or the first after a scene break. All others, yes.

And I never start the first page of a new chapter half way down the page, either.

Wow. Maybe this is why I haven't sold my book yet. And there was me thinking it was just because my book was crap.

scarletpeaches · Mar 24, 2007

DeadlyAccurate said:
Where are you getting this information, Will? Because I've never, ever heard anyone say a manuscript should look anything other than this way.

I'd never heard anyone obsess about double-spacing after a full stop before joining AW.

And yet, I've heard other writers here say it doesn't matter. So even within that link there are variables that simply don't matter as much as people think they do. Even the em-dashes at the end of the document has never arisen with any writer I've spoken to in 'real life' before.

Most of the time it's a matter of preferences on either side of the Atlantic. Some things simply don't matter over here. Or rather, some things matter more than others and if your manuscript's good enough, other, minor matters can be overlooked.

I doubt an agent would turn you down just for using an elongated hyphen instead of '--', and only spacing once after a full stop.

JanDarby · Mar 24, 2007

Depends on whether you're submitting electronically or on paper; and if it's electronically, it depends on whether it's an attachment or in the text of the email.

Anything that goes inside an email (not as an attachment) should be block format, like these posts. Anything that's on paper or is an email attachment that will be printed on paper should be the traditional format, of a tab (or .5") indent for EVERY paragraph. (BTW, it's probably better to use a tab instead of 5 spaces or set the formatting to a 1/2" indent of each paragraph, which will then happen automatically whenever you hit return, if you have any intention of submitting electronically, b/c then it's easy to remove/alter the indents if the publisher doesn't want indents, or wants them a different size.)

And also remember the rule that trumps all others: despite the basic formats, always follow the directions of the person/company you're submitting to, especially if they take electronic submissions and will be using your electronic file directly.

JD

Gillhoughly · Mar 24, 2007

Tired and cranky editor here.

Five spaces on every paragraph, including the ones that start chapters, including the one that starts the book.

I recently got a MS in with a left alignment on the chapter starts and wondered if the writer didn't know any better or was having format problems or thought it just looked nicer that way.

It was an annoying distraction, causing me to question the writer's IQ.

Standard MS formatting is not rocket science.

Strange things like hitting the tab key when needed and dropping down half a page to start the book and each chapter ARE there for a reason.

I corrected the glitch throughout, grumbling because getting the format right is the writer's job. The less work I have to do the more likely I am to look at (and perhaps even ask for) more pieces from you.

Let the work stand out because of your amazing writing, not because you got creative with the format.

scarletpeaches · Mar 24, 2007

And the 10pt recommendation in that link?

That link recommends 10pt, everyone here has said 12pt, so who's right? Is submitting such a dangerous business than one could get knocked back for using the wrong SIZE font now? And what on earth is triple spacing? Is that three clicks of the enter key when you have it set for double? Or is that three clicks of the enter key assuming it's set for single?

And could I really be turned down for only pressing the space bar once? And using a '*' instead of a '#' which is NOT called a pound sign, at least here? A pound sign is: £. In Britain a # is called a hash.

Siddow · Mar 24, 2007

Will Lavender said:
Interesting point.

I guess we're into a discussion now about the rules of manuscript writing versus the rules of published texts. And I suppose you and others are right: the rules, especially pertaining to margins, are probably different. (Maybe even the word "rule" is a slippery one here.)

Carry on.

I haven't read any published novels that used the kind of formatting you showed in your original post. Non-fiction, yes. Fiction? Eh...no. (except the straight right margin. Still don't care for the ragged right margin in a published book.)

johnzakour · Mar 24, 2007

NTG said:
Ah, but I WAS talking about software, a few posts earlier. Software that won't even LET you indent. However, I plead guilty to using Microsoft as a generic whipping boy for computer software. It's just so much fun. . .

I was going to respond saying, "no need to pick on poor Microsoft," but then my system running vista crashed....

Oh DOS!

scribbler1382 · Mar 24, 2007

I think William Shunn is a better resource, but Kent is on the money. The easy part here is William provides templates. Just download'em and use'em. You know, there's so much about writing that's in the subjective gray area of life that when you do get something that can be rock solid, my inclination would be to just accept it and move on to worrying how the editor feels about melodrama. But that's me.

INDENT FIRST PARAGRAPH?

COOLORANGEFREEZE

New kid, be gentle!

Elodie-Caroline

Jamesaritchie

johnzakour

Dangerous with a Keyboard

Will Lavender

Everything is what it seems.

DeadlyAccurate

Absolutely Fazed

johnzakour

Dangerous with a Keyboard

NTG

Jamesaritchie

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

NTG

scribbler1382

Write For You, Edit For The Reader

Siddow

I'm super! Thanks for asking

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

Will Lavender

Everything is what it seems.

NTG

blacbird

scarletpeaches

scarletpeaches

JanDarby

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

scarletpeaches

Siddow

I'm super! Thanks for asking

johnzakour

Dangerous with a Keyboard

scribbler1382

Write For You, Edit For The Reader