Stories within stories

loquax · Mar 20, 2007

What do you think when characters tell stories in novels? I'm talking about stories with a beginning, middle, and an end, with no overal linkage to the main plot (except for perhaps sharing a similar theme)

It happens a lot in those "sitting round the campfire" moments. I decided to put one into my novel as a way of briefly captivating the reader, slowing the flow, and strengthening the overall theme. It's probably my favourite part of the novel, and for that I feel kinda bad.

Anyone here used it as a device, or inadvertently put something like it in their novel?

Shady Lane · Mar 20, 2007

I really like reading these in novels, but I hate when they last too long. I'm advise against going over a page or two. Otherwise, it's a great plot device.

The Lady · Mar 20, 2007

I'm very easy going in my novel reading. If I like the writer's way with words, Ill be happy to read anything. Having said that, it's better if the story serves a purpose too, like sto how an unexpected soft side to a character, or serve as a warning etc.
I think Tad William s wrote a book, Child of An Ancient City (maybe not exactly that title)Which was all stories around a camp fire and I enjoyed it very much.
Unlike some of his other books which were terribly long winded. Which has nothing to do with your original question.

Pagey's_Girl · Mar 20, 2007

Piers Anthony does that quite well in Firefly. (Just be warned, that book is not for everyone; it touches on some rather disturbing sexual themes.)

TrainofThought · Mar 20, 2007

If the story doesn’t have anything to do with the plot, why do you want to put it in? You can incorporate a story within a story to build character just make sure it is not long, written well and show.

Rob B · Mar 20, 2007

I think it's a great tool to develop a character(s) and/or create insight into others. But you might get more mileage out of it if you can also tie it, however loosely, to your story line--or let it serve as a means to initiate or maintain or advance a thread.

I responded to your question because I wrote a 108,000 novel using this device, and I felt it was strong enough to title the work based on the segment. So, if you like your piece as much as you indicate, I'd certainly
recommend going for it. But I would follow the advice of some of the others and be judicious with your word count. Remember Proust? Bad puppy.

maestrowork · Mar 20, 2007

TrainofThought said:
If the story doesn’t have anything to do with the plot, why do you want to put it in? You can incorporate a story within a story to build character just make sure it is not long, written well and show.

My thought exactly. What is the point of this story within a story?

I would probably keep it short. And it really should have a point in the main story, whether it's to advance the main plot, develop characters or strengthen the theme. If it's just a camp fire story, then I'd say: What?

ChaosTitan · Mar 20, 2007

Going along with Ray and Train, don't use it unless it adds to the main plot. Study others who have done it successfully. Two off the top of my head are Stephen King in his novella "The Body," and Richard Adams in "Watership Down."

<----thinks everyone should read Watership Down at least once in their lifetime

Devil Ledbetter · Mar 20, 2007

chaostitan said:
<----thinks everyone should read Watership Down at least once in their lifetime

Fantastic book. I still think tharn and hrududu should be in regular English usage.

triceretops · Mar 20, 2007

Gak, I tried this in a bar scene and an editor told me that it came off like a "he said, she said, by the way, bob" passage. My agent told me it was a character dump. The AW critter crew said it was useless.

I bow to the powers. Apparently I didn't do right, or it's not all that popular if it doesn't propel the storyline along.

Hint: If you're going to do it, be careful and make sure it is essential and adds, not subtracts from the plot.

Tri

benbradley · Mar 20, 2007

Not that this in any way is an answer to your question, nor does it have much of anything to do with anything, but recursive writing ideas remind me of the comic strip "Sawdust."

ChaosTitan · Mar 20, 2007

Devil Ledbetter said:
Fantastic book. I still think tharn and hrududu should be in regular English usage.

You mean I'm the only one who drives to the store in their hrududu?

Devil Ledbetter · Mar 20, 2007

chaostitan said:
You mean I'm the only one who drives to the store in their hrududu?

I usually get stopped by The Great Hrududu on my way to the store, especially at nigh F'rith.

The_Grand_Duchess · Mar 20, 2007

Pagey's_Girl said:
Piers Anthony does that quite well in Firefly. (Just be warned, that book is not for everyone; it touches on some rather disturbing sexual themes.)

I thought I was the only person who ever read that! I've never met anyone else who has.

Yeah, def not for everyone. But it was very good.

Simon Woodhouse · Mar 20, 2007

I don't mind if the story involves and reveals something about one of the main characters, otherwise I tend to drift off a bit.

Edward G · Mar 20, 2007

loquax said:
I decided to put one into my novel as a way of briefly captivating the reader, slowing the flow, and strengthening the overall theme.

I don't know why anyone would purposely slow the progress of their story. Forward motion is everything to the reader, not continuous slam-bam action, but always, relentlessly moving forward. A story inserted that doesn't connect to the main plot is literary suicide in my opinion. The story just stops at that point. The reader's going to finish the book (hopefully) and want to know how that sidebar story fit in. If it doesn't, they're going to think you don't know your craft. They're going to feel cheated.

blacbird · Mar 20, 2007

loquax said:
What do you think when characters tell stories in novels?

Time-honored technique:

Joseph Conrad, H.G. Wells, among others. It's a technique fully as appropriate for the right story as any particular choice of POV, which generate endless discussion here. All you need to determine is whether it's useful for the story you're writing.

caw

Inkdaub · Mar 20, 2007

I think a story should be like a journey in that a destination is an important aspect but isnt the entire trip. So I would say if you like the story within the story then leave it in. I do agree that if the inner story is too long it can throw off the pacing of the greater story.

Raphee · Mar 21, 2007

I enjoy them if the story or character is interesting and the writing wonderful. Too long or irrelevant to anything in the novel might be a bit tough to pull off.

zornhau · Mar 21, 2007

The "Saragossa Manuscript" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saragossa_Manuscript)
pulls it off, but then it's the main feature. (And the author - afraid of becoming a werewolf - had his family priest bless a silver pistol ball then used it to blow his own brains out.) Ditto the Arabian Nights.

Speaking for myself, it depends on the kind of novel.

In most novels, if you stop off to tell an unlrelated story, I'll stop off to throw your book against the wall and seek out my Fantasy Masterworks edition of Conan.

Is an hour of your novel more engrossing than an hour of a tried and tested tale of yesteryear? You are competing not just for my beer money, but for my scarce reading time.

But if it's a certain sort of milieu novel, and the stories themselves are relevant to the plot, then you may well hook me.

The bigger problem is that oral narratives don't translate well onto paper.

swvaughn · Mar 21, 2007

Wizard and Glass is a campfire story that lasts the whooooole book...

NeuroFizz · Mar 21, 2007

chaostitan said:
don't use it unless it adds to the main plot.

The clipped quote doesn't reflect all of Chaos' thoughts on this, so my comments below don't reflect a disagreement with the entire post.

I'm going to forward a contrary voice here. A story-within-a-story can be a useful tool for more than just characterization, but even if it is limited to that, it has a place. Like others have said, it can't take the reader from the story arc for too long, though. But that minor story can fuel subplots. It can provide insight that gently leads the reader along in the story without directly addressing the main plot. If broken into pieces and sprinkled through the story, it can serve as a means of regulating pace of the story. More importantly, a "sprinkled sub-story" can provide an edge of anticipation in the reader (a little secondary tension) that ultimately ties in with the main story arc. If used effectively, such a tool can add great depth to a story.

CaroGirl · Mar 21, 2007

Loquax, I asked a similar question, and these are the answers I got:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55318&highlight=carogirl

Hope those responses help you.

jodiodi · Mar 21, 2007

I have a story within a story in my currently shopped about novel. It has one of the characters telling another character why this creature wants revenge against him by recounting his first encounter with it and the results. It provides insight into the teller (who, up until then, was seen in an unflattering light) as well as reasoning for a lot of the happenings in the book. I don't know how successful I was with it; since no one's bought it, I suppose, not very.

Saundra Julian · Mar 21, 2007

In one of my m/s, I tell two complete stories at the same time. Both are about the MC... past and present and are set in different eras.

Seems to work. My beta readers (and others) love it! There is no confusion and both stories have unexpected twists that carry the reader's interest to the next chapter.

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