God

seun · Mar 20, 2007

You know the bloke. Nice beard, helps old ladies across the road, loves his old mum. That sort of thing.

Anyway, the issue of referring to God as He or You rather than he or you - is this just tradition or does it have a basis?

I ask because God features (in a small way) in my WIP and although I'm treating the story informally, I'd still like to get things right.

veinglory · Mar 20, 2007

Capitalising God is a standard, it would look odd if you didn't.

ChaosTitan · Mar 20, 2007

Tradition and respect, I think. You use "He" instead of "he" for the same reason it's "God" and not "god."

seun · Mar 20, 2007

Thanks for the replies. I thought it might come down to tradition/respect. My characters would definitely see it as such.

veinglory · Mar 20, 2007

It is also encoded in most style guides so even those not from the tradition or feeling the respect will do it unless *really* trying to make a point.

Amiton · Mar 20, 2007

Offhand, I would say that there is no formal grammatical rule that's being followed by capitalizing pronouns. What I think they're going for in theological writings is that we're talking about THE big cheese. He is the He. Thus from a divine perspective it's almost like a proper noun. Again, from a non-theological grammar stance, the judeo-christian deity is just like any of the other small-g ones.

Amiton.

Deleted member 42 · Mar 20, 2007

It's a manuscript tradition, inspired by respect, that was carried over into print -- and it is suggested as good practice by many style guides.

Southern_girl29 · Mar 20, 2007

Here is what the AP Style Book says, and it is what we follow at the newspaper. Capitalize God in references to the deity of all monotheistic religions. Capitalize all noun references to the deity: God the Father, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, etc. Lowercase personal pronounces: he, him, thee, thou.

Lowercase gods and goddesses in references to deities of polytheistic religions. Lowercase god, gods and goddesses in reference to false gods: He made money his god.

I'm actually glad I looked that up, because I didn't know for sure on the pronouns.

Devil Ledbetter · Mar 20, 2007

Southern_girl29 said:
Lowercase gods and goddesses in references to deities of polytheistic religions. Lowercase god, gods and goddesses in reference to false gods: He made money his god.

Then if a book is written from an atheistic worldview, or the POV character or narrator is an atheist (as in, believes all gods are false gods, including that of the monotheistic religions) then god should be lowercase?

DL

Southern_girl29 · Mar 20, 2007

Devil Ledbetter said:
Then if a book is written from an atheistic worldview, or the POV character or narrator is an atheist (as in, believes all gods are false gods, including that of the monotheistic religions) then god should be lowercase?

DL

Good question. I think that would be the case. Of course, AP style is what newspapers follow, not necessarily books, so the answer may be different.

Devil Ledbetter · Mar 20, 2007

He looked, but what he saw was no baby. It was an angry god flipping him the bird.

In this context, is the treatment of "god" correct?

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Yet it also felt right to put the word in upper case in this context, although it is in the very same scene.

Her eyes were squeezed shut. He felt like they were together on a sickening carnival ride, waiting for it to end. That must be what God is like, he thought, some greasy-haired, stoned-out carnie getting his kicks making unsuspecting townies get sick on his wild ride.

Southern_girl29 · Mar 20, 2007

Devil Ledbetter said:
In this context, is the treatment of "god" correct?

Yet it also felt right to put the word in upper case in this context, although it is in the very same scene.

I believe that would be correct.

veinglory · Mar 20, 2007

Devil Ledbetter said:
Then if a book is written from an atheistic worldview, or the POV character or narrator is an atheist (as in, believes all gods are false gods, including that of the monotheistic religions) then god should be lowercase?

DL

No. Unless you decide to try and make that point against normal conventions--in which case good luck to you

I have done my best to get editors to capitalise pagan gods when the POV character is pagan--with mixed success.

Southern_girl29 · Mar 20, 2007

Devil Ledbetter said:
In this context, is the treatment of "god" correct?

Yet it also felt right to put the word in upper case in this context, although it is in the very same scene.

This is my take on it, but I could be wrong. In the first instance, it seems as though you would mean a deity from a polytheistic religion because "an angry god" implies that there is more than one.

In the second example, though, I take it to mean "The God" as in a monoetheistic religion. I hope this makes sense.

Devil Ledbetter · Mar 20, 2007

Southern_girl29 said:
This is my take on it, but I could be wrong. In the first instance, it seems as though you would mean a deity from a polytheistic religion because "an angry god" implies that there is more than one.

In the second example, though, I take it to mean "The God" as in a monoetheistic religion. I hope this makes sense.

It does make sense. I went with what felt correct to me in each instance.

You can probably tell my book won't be making the Oprah Book Club Novels of Divine Inspiration and Faith list.

virtue_summer · Mar 20, 2007

The first quote says "an angry god." This implies more than one. It's the same kind of usage as if I were to say "He became a father." or "He talked to his father." It's not capitalized.

The second quote is using God as a name. It's the same as if I were to say "Father, I'd like to talk to you." or "Father gave me his car." Names are capitalized.

That's my take on it, anyway. I don't think it has anything to do with polytheistic or monotheistic except that in a polytheistic religion god would automatically become a category, the individual gods being referred to by their names (as in Zeus or Aphrodite.) Anything else would be confusing.

RumpleTumbler · Mar 20, 2007

I use He rather than he. I also don't capitalize satan.

RG570 · Mar 20, 2007

I do not capitalize god, and never will. Of course, if a publisher insists, I will have no choice. But I'd make a bit of noise about it.

It's an easy thing to fix, probably takes about two seconds so I don't see how it's a big deal either way.

Devil Ledbetter · Mar 20, 2007

While we're at it, what about:

until she was convulsing and moaning god, god, god, to the constellations.

and

“That bad, huh? Because you seemed really into it. Nobody ever called me god before.”

DL

seun · Mar 20, 2007

RumpleTumbler said:
I use He rather than he. I also don't capitalize satan.

Why not? It's a name.

Devil Ledbetter · Mar 20, 2007

seun said:
Why not? It's a name.

I agree. As far as I know, there is only one (fictional) Satan, but gods are legion.

DL

RumpleTumbler · Mar 20, 2007

seun said:
Why not? It's a name.

Out of disrespect.

Devil Ledbetter · Mar 20, 2007

RumpleTumbler said:
Out of disrespect.

So, hurting Satan's feelings is more important than being grammatically correct?

Okaaaaaay.

*Slowly backs away*

RumpleTumbler · Mar 20, 2007

Devil Ledbetter said:
So, hurting Satan's feelings is more important than being grammatically correct?

Okaaaaaay.

*Slowly backs away*

I don't imagine if there is a satan that it hurts his feelings. It's one of those things like lowering a pedophile into a pot of boiling oil wouldn't reform him but it might make me feel better.

veinglory · Mar 20, 2007

Generally I think the main point it to use something that won't look odd to the reader. I think a small s Satan would simply leave a lot of readers thinking a lot about satan.

I am not the godly type but I give the J-D God his capital because that's what we do. So long as it doesn't jar with the mythos of the story.

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