Condensed PublishAmerica Thread II

[DaveKuzminski]

According to one source, PublishAmerica rejects 80% of the submissions they receive. Since they claim to have published manuscripts from over 4,000 authors, that logically means that they have rejected as many as 16,000 manuscripts.

In order to test that claim, P&E is asking writers whose manuscripts were rejected by PublishAmerica to contact P&E at prededitors@att.net so that we can gather the necessary evidence. Writers who do respond to this request can expect their identities and manuscript titles to remain totally confidential as journalistic resources.

Thank you,
Dave Kuzminski, Editor
Preditors & Editors ™

Edited to fix email address.

[Ed Williams 3]

...holding your breath on this one.

[SavannahL]

I have nothing to do with PA and have had the good fortune not to get tangled up with them. However, I've read all the threads on this board and they're obviously of (nearly) the same ilk as Poetry.com.

Which got me to thinking....

How about a bunch of us getting together and assembling an "anthology" of short stories and submitting it to PA? I'm talking baaaad stories. Stories that should never see the light of day. Sort of a la what Dave Barry did in submitting horrible poems to the International Library of Poetry.

This jape would serve three purposes: 1) test whether or not PA truly ever rejects a manuscript; 2) waste PA's time and resources; 3) give all of the contributors a good belly laugh.

I will probably live to regret suggesting the idea, but it sounds fun, to me. Anyone else game?

[emeraldcite]

if you want to waste a company's resources, do a search on google. if they have a sidebar ad, click it. the company has to pay google for each click-through kicked up by the ad...

[Ed Williams 3]

...and I'll bet ten to one that PA will take whatever we send in. Then Dave could start a "lending library" on his Preditors and Editors site, so that when people write in asking him if PA is a legitimate publisher he could just loan them a copy of our newly minted PA book and then ask them to draw their own conclusions.

Savannah, I like your idea and I'm game. If others are, it shouldn't take but 6-10 stories to have enough for a PA submission. Between you and I, though, we'd have to use phony names if we do this as we wouldn't want our literary careers ruined with the PA "taint" added to our publishing credits.

[DaveKuzminski]

So far, I've learned of two. That's a far cry from the 80% I understand they claim to reject (based upon their other claim of having published work from over 4,000 authors.

[James D Macdonald]

The individual authors would have to give up their copyrights, and assign them, in writing, to whoever the person who submits the work turns out to be.

Rather than an anthology, this ought to be put together like <a href="http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/stranger.html" target="_new">Naked Came the Stranger</a>.

It still wouldn't prove anything, (like Stranger didn't prove anything) but it might be fun.

You'd need to have someone in charge of making this work (the person assigning chapters, enforcing deadlines, and putting it together), someone to submit it (that'd be someone that PA has never heard of, and you know that they read these boards). You'd have to get a group of people who you know, face to face, who aren't PA plants, and who know how to keep their mouths shut.

[FEMazur]

Let's see if I understand something here, Dave Kuzminski. You're giving your personal assurance to those who respond that you will not disclose their names and the titles of their work to others. And yet on another thread at the water cooler, Canada James has asked you to remove his name as a source, all of which you posted without his permission and likely as a 'dirty Nixon-style trick.' Well, won't those serious writers just be reporting to you one after the other because of your solid trustworthiness?

[DaveKuzminski]

Someone gives me information. I can't thank them publicly without someone stating that it's a Nixon-trick? Yet at the same time, I'm being attacked as unreliable for maintaining confidentiality for those to whom it's promised?

FIRST of all, you're talking apples and oranges. Individuals who have asked not to be acknowledged have not been listed ever in P&E's thank you column. Get this straight. Canada James did not ask me any time prior to his request in this topic. Why else do you think I asked about whether he wanted acknowledgement should he give me other information later on? He went ahead and made one of his typical remarks in response and I'm supposed to be nice? I pointed out exactly what that would be or do I have to explain that as well? He made his decision long before he researched anything on P&E. Otherwise, I believe he would have seen enough to cause him to exercise greater caution. Instead, he made a financial decision based upon how much it would cost him to have the books published by PublishAmerica compared to his experience with his previous book. If anyone who really cares researches enough of Canada James' remarks, that comes out as part of his reason. If nothing else, he made a rational decision in doing that part of the equation, but I don't believe that he anticipated the difficulty in getting his work into enough book stores where it would make a real difference. He's still stuck with nearly the same amount of book stores as he could reach before. He knows that, but it's not likely that he'll admit it because he'd have to admit that he was wrong.

ALSO, for your information, hundreds of writers have written to me offering information while asking that they not be identified or thanked. P&E and I always followed through with their wishes in every instance. No writer's confidentiality has ever been broken by P&E and myself in its nearly eight years of operation.

And one last thing should be mentioned. You don't need permission to thank someone. However, like I stated, P&E doesn't list the names of those who ask not to be listed. Yes, I could have responded sooner to him, but I was on jury duty for one day sending a young man to prison for four years.

[RebelWriter]

Savannah, good idea. I think I can come up with a real stinker. Must be truely bad. Stories that don't end right, make no sense. One you truely don't want your name on. I am in. Need to know who to send the stories too. I will give up my rights to it. Certainly. But who ever does it, should ask for extra copies in the contract so we can all have one. To remember our worst work, and PAs blunder.

[Ed Williams 3]

...from my first book that was culled out by the editor. It is absolutely awful, and that's me being kind about it. Savannah, I will gladly send it to you and revoke any rights that I have to it. One thing that could potentially be wild about this - if we do this, and the word gets out, the damn book might actually sell on account of "what it is." Sort of the same karma that made "Plan 9 From Outer Space" an extremely popular movie.

The more I think about it, the better this idea becomes...

[emeraldcite]

and make any more money for PA? hmmm...wouldn't that just justify their cause?

[FEMazur]

Come on now. Show some risk to your personal vanity. Send them what you consider to be your very best stories.

[James D Macdonald]

Why should I send my very best stories to PA, when a traditional publisher would pay me significant money and get me significant numbers of readers?

I'd have to be nuts in the head to go with an installment-plan vanity press.

(If anyone wants to see how low PublishAmerica's standards are, lots of PA authors have posted <a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=PublishAmerica+sample+chapter" target="_new">sample chapters</a>.)

[Ed Williams 3]

...it's a matter of adding something to my literary resume that will trash it beyond repair. Over the past three months or so, I've attended the Southern Festival of the Book, the Atlanta Literary Festival, the St. Petersburg Festival of Reading, and SEBA. These festivals are attended/populated by people representing libraries, media outlets, and other entities crucial to one's writing success. To a "T" they considered Publish America a joke, just a new age variant to the age old vanity press situation. I would just as soon run manuscripts off my printer, bind them, and sell them myself as go with Publish America, and that's being kind about it.

[HConn]

(If anyone wants to see how low PublishAmerica's standards are, lots of PA authors have posted sample chapters.)

Ouch. I only read the top three, but they were ungood. Especially the first.

[James D Macdonald]

I don't mean to imply that the PA authors who posted sample chapters are bad people, or even bad writers, and they're certainly proud of their books.

Some of the books are probably good.

But ... most of them aren't ready to be published, and certainly aren't ready to be published unedited.

[FM St George]

gee, ya think?

*laughs*

I remember a post I responded to on the PA forums right before I was banned (possibly the reason why) where one of their victims met a reviewer and tried to ask for a review of her PA book. He declined, explaining why he wouldn't ever review a PA book. In fact, he even offered her a chance to attend a writing clinic he held at his own bookstore - granted, it may have been the tip of another scam but it was offered in good intentions. Of course, she launched into a scathing rant about how unfair the publishing world was and how 'orrible it was that PA authors were being ignored. She also mentioned that said man had actually gone to her site and read an excerpt to boot, so how dare he take the attitude that she was in need of his assistance!

I then went to her site and read the sample chapter - to say it was horrible would be an understatement. I took her to task, explaining that her customers would be reading this off her website as well, and if it wasn't a decent read (spelling - ijiot?) and so forth that she wasn't going to sell a thing. The rest of the board jumped in, explaining that it was the usual conspiracy against PA authors and so forth and how dare this man suggest that her work was anything less than perfect.

it's a sad, sad commentary on the world when everyone feels they have the RIGHT to be published and fawned over by every reviewer and bookstore owner from here to Haiti... especially by PA!

[finerthingsinlife]

Said he managed to get two of his rejected...go figure

[HapiSofi]

FEMazur and finerthingsinlife, latest two PA sockpuppets.

[Lori Basiewicz]

Hapi, I don't think finerthingsinlife is a PA-puppet. I think he is Marky back to his old routine. Jenna banned him a few weeks ago, but he can't seem to stay away.

[HapiSofi]

Eh, you're probably right.

[James D Macdonald]

No, I don't agree. I'm convinced Finerthings and Marky are two different people.

[absolutewrite]

Yes, please ease up. Finer and Marky are two different people, and I'm not sure why that comment by Finer drew a bad response... any of us could have made that same comment-- Marky did repeatedly mention that he had manuscripts rejected by PA. And Finer has clearly stated that he/she doesn't approve of PA's tactics of "trading on dreams" before.

[FEMazur]

HapiSofi, one more unimaginative, thoughtless, mediocre writer. Poke your fun at me when you can write as well. Until then, read something other than the ordinary pap and exercise your brain.

Also, just for the record, I don't stump for any business, publishers included. Who are you stumping for?

[Lori Basiewicz]

I apologize for my comment and assumption that Marky and Finer were one and the same.

[James D Macdonald]

I'm certain that the reason Marky's manuscripts were rejected by PA was that by then he'd made himself more trouble to them than the average author they print. There are only so many hours in a day; they have more manuscripts sitting on their desks than they can pour into their templates with the staff they have. Why print a second book by someone who's given you trouble already? It isn't going to sell better (or worse) than any other manuscript they have on hand.

[James D Macdonald]

FEMazur, where can I read some of your works? Hapi, same question.

Private email if you like.

[XThe NavigatorX]

FE posted on the announcements board about his books. Here's a link to an excerpt of one.

www.amazon.com/exec/obido...vi=excerpt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1588515710/104-1837705-0694330?v=glance&vi=excerpt)

[James D Macdonald]

Thanks, X.

[FEMazur]

Here's another:

www.funeralassociates.com...vocate.htm (http://www.funeralassociates.com/child_advocate.htm)

[HapiSofi]

James D. Macdonald, I'm afraid I'm going to have to apologize for not referring you to other specimens of my writing.

In the discussions on this board, I've never once claimed to be anyone I'm not. Still, by now it will have occurred to most of you that "HapiSofi" isn't my real name. I have a perfectly good real name, but if I used it here, I'd be far more limited in my ability to say useful things about writing and publishing. I can't refer you to more of my writing without outing myself.

Since I'm not giving further specifics, I don't necessarily expect you all to believe the claims I'm about to make, but I've written an award-nominated nonfiction book that's about to be published in its third edition by a small but entirely respectable publisher, and my online journalism is read by about 30,000 readers a month.

[Canada James]

Please see the Take It Outside Board to see my defense of this (again) blatant attack on me by Mr. K.

Canada James

[rtilryarms]

Hapi,

I don't have a problem with anonymous postings. That is the nature of the Web.
I also believe in the privilege of building credibility based on our fellow Board participants not on overblown resumes. I have seen the comers and goers shoving their perception of their perfect selves down our throats. So you only have to impress us with the here and now of the subjects at hand.
I admit that it is impressive to be on the third printing of a book and the readership of 30,000, very nice!

Say, unless you are on your third appeal and the 30,000 readers are because you write the prison menu……….

rt

[Canada James]

"In the discussions on this board, I've never once claimed to be anyone I'm not. Still, by now it will have occurred to most of you that "HapiSofi" isn't my real name. I have a perfectly good real name, but if I used it here, I'd be far more limited in my ability to say useful things about writing and publishing. I can't refer you to more of my writing without outing myself."

James Mac. won't divulge any information on this board than you want him to. He doesn't feel that because your name appears in print elsewhere on the web that you aren't entitled to anonymity where you want it.

"I don't necessarily expect you all to believe the claims I'm about to make, but I've written an award-nominated nonfiction book that's about to be published in its third edition by a small but entirely respectable publisher, and my online journalism is read by about 30,000 readers a month."

If it's the truth it won't need me to believe you. But personally, I'm sceptical. No offence. However, let a trusted third-party verify you (James Mac.) and I'll certainly trust him. He has earned it.

Canada James

[finerthingsinlife]

Finerthings & Marky are not (and have never been) the same person--unless Marky truly was schizophrenic. James and Jen, I applaud you for having a well-developed grasp of what should have been straight forward logic.

I choose to remain anonymous to avoid the nastiness I have seen in this forum. :b lack eye

For background however, I am male, have two books coming out in 2005 from a e/trade publisher (who is so small, that I am guessing that even I could afford to carpet their office). I have a submission in with PA currently--and the reason for that is the book is so obscure and dark (imagine Stephen King writing while on morphine after his accident and that is still too light) that I do not think there is a commercial market for it, but I still want a nice copy for the records.:evil

So I am a new chum--hardly term myself a writer yet--but I am trying!

The reason I got a little acidic on the whole PA thing was I was getting a bit jaundiced by seeing it dominating every forum. Perhaps the wonderful Jen (who is gorgeous as well as talented--stand back all and smell the roses sometimes or 'there are more things than are dreamed off in your philosophy Horatio') may want to establish a new forum just for PA comments. That way all the aggressive hippos could happily wallow in the mud without getting the rest of us wet.

Seriously, I don't mind the debate but when we see writers directly trying to hurt each other (or each other's reputation) that is sad. To the person (only for example) who is running round banging every PA author with a bad review on Amazon--that is truly pathetic. Attack the publisher, don't blame the poor sod who fell for the pitch.

To the experts in our dysfunctional little family, I thank you for the information--it does help. To those who just want to spew bile--as we say where I come from, go for your life!

Please let's shoot the bad guys, but try and not hurt as many innocent bystanders as we can. And now as one of our wittier contributors has signed off before...'now back to the regular programming.'
:eek

[James D Macdonald]

"...the reason for that is the book is so obscure and dark (imagine Stephen King writing while on morphine after his accident and that is still too light) that I do not think there is a commercial market for it ..."

Don't reject your own work. That's the editor's job. How do you know it isn't commercially publishable if you don't let a commercial publisher see it?

[Dragon Chow]

I read in another message board that PA books are eligible for Writer's Digest magazine's SELF-PUBLISHED Book Award contest. I e-mailed Writer's Digest and they confirmed it. :rollin

Anyway, although the deadline has passed, the lady I e-mailed said if the entry arrived by Jan. 5, they'd still accept it. So, if any PA authors (I'm not) are interested, here's a chance to win an award. ;)

DC

P.S. This is my first post, but I've been lurking here forever. Coming out of lurk to say hi :)

[emeraldcite]

but, by winning and accepting an award of that nature, an author would admit that PA is a self-publisher. i'm betting they wouldn't list that award on their website..or if they they do, they'd say that such-and-such an author won a best book award from WD.

[absolutewrite]

Wow, interesting, DC! And welcome. Glad you came out of lurkdom.

[FEMazur]

Jenna--

As Editor-in-Chief of this site, I expect more objectivity in your response to posts: "Wow...." doesn't do it.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that you're a fan of all that propaganda Fox shovels out each day as news.

Here's what Dragon Chow should have written for starters (the names and sites are fictitious):

"On allthereistolifechat.com under a thread entitled 'Awards' and in a post by 'StoppedUp,' I read where PA books can be entered into a Writer's Digest Self-Publishing Contest. I wrote WD to inquire if this were true and received the following e-mail on December ??, 2003, from Ms. Walmsley. She stated the following, and I quote: "yada, yada, yada, etc."

My own e-mail to confirm or deny this was answered with an autoreply stating the person would be out of the office until after the new year.

[CWGranny]

Jenna is aware that this site doesn't service the general PA author pool, thus -- wow -- and -- interesting -- are about all anyone passing by are going to respond. Those who find it worth more than wow can (as you did) email themselves. If they find the answer is not readily available (as you did) -- the INTERESTED party could ask DC if she/he can offer more information and sources.

So...the appropriate response would have been to ask for more information of DC if you were interested -- not berate or insult Jenna for not interrogating someone bringing for information of only mild interest to the general readership of this board. The board for berating and insulting is labelled "Take it Outside" -- this is one of the boards that's meant for the professionals and grown-ups.

Gran

[Dragon Chow]

Yeah, I got the same (out of office) reply at first, then another person (an assistant editor) came back with a reply. I'd be happy to forward that e-mail to you and anyone else who wants it. I didn't post it here, because, although I got her permission to forward the e-mail, I wasn't sure if it'd be appropriate to post it in a public forum like this.

DC

[absolutewrite]

Thanks, Granny. FEM: because I'm the editor, you expect "objectivity" on all posts? Huh? First of all, "wow" and "interesting" don't express any opinion at all aside from "I find that interesting," and second, if I had an opinion, I'd be happy to express it. My function on this board is not investigative journalist, disinterested third party, nor judge.

Further, FEM, I do NOT want people quoting letters from WD or anywhere else without the writer's permission. You want to investigate? Feel free.

*Disclaimer: All of Jenna's posts from here on in are subjective. If you don't like that, feel free to avert your eyes.

[Zunus]

I have a personal interest in PA. Not positive or negative but I was wondering what you all have against it and why?

I am not affiliated with PA in anyway. I'm just curious as a former employee of a person who works with PA.

[James D Macdonald]

What do we have against them?

PA is a vanity press that lies about itself, pretending to be a legitimate press.

Whatever business they're in, regardless of what they tell the people they've suckered, they aren't in the business of selling books to the general public. They're in the business of selling unedited slush, at full price, to their own authors.

[HapiSofi]

Jim Macdonald, will you vouch for me?

[James D Macdonald]

HapiSofi, although not best known as an author, is a publishing professional who has in fact been traditionally published.

[absolutewrite]

Hi Zunus,

James M. put it quite succinctly. I would add that the main reason I oppose them is that they break writers' hearts. Not-particularly-publishing-savvy writers believe PA's claims that their books will appear in bookstores, get requested by celebrities, and be treated as traditionally published. They believe that PA is "taking a chance on them" and "believing in them." And PA has tried to build up a cult-like mentality that everyone in the world (especially traditionally-published authors), aside from the valiant PA, are part of a vast conspiracy to keep unpublished writers down.

If you want more, there are literally hundreds of posts about PA on both this board and the Take it Outside board (further down the page on the list of forums).

[emeraldcite]

not to mention, check the PA boards as well, and see the excitement over the famous "dollar" that everyone gets in the mail.

[SRHowen]

is allow them to take office stuff etc., off their taxes. LOL

[HapiSofi]

I second Jenna's observation: PA breaks writers' hearts. There's nothing like an author for believing that whatever happens is their fault. That's PA's ace in the hole.

[James D Macdonald]

The problem with PublishAmerica is that they'll publish a good book as fast as they'll publish a bad one. The good author will get exactly the same sales (numbered in the scant dozens), the lack of reviews anywhere higher on the food chain than the Midwest Book Review, the bookstore managers saying "No" when they come by to ask to have their books stocked. That good author will be just as heartbroken, will blame herself just as much, and will be discouraged from trying again.

While the scamming bad authors who get published by PA get is a pity, what happens to good authors is a tragedy.

[AnneMarble]

James D Macdonald wrote:
>The good author will get exactly the same sales
>(numbered in the scant dozens), the lack of reviews
>anywhere higher on the food chain than the Midwest
>Book Review,

OK, after reading that post, I have to ask... What's the deal with Midwest Book Review?

I've seen Midwest Book Reviews cited as editorial reviews on Amazon.com and wondered about them. The reviews seemed rather... positive, to say the least. :lol

When I found the Midwest Book Review web site, it had a whole page for reviews of small press, self-published, and POD books -- including outright vanity publishers. The ones I glanced at were short and positive. Very positive. Are the reviews in the actual publication better than the ones on the web site?

[FM St George]

I can't speak for MBR, but I can relate to the problem of having nothing but glowing reviews...

it's a sort of masturbatory circle at PA with everyone reviewing each other's books with nary a negative comment to be made and all reviews to be crossposted to Amazon with references BACK to the reviewer's book... there was a brave person who dared to ask what to do if he/she didn't like the PA book and the response came back loud and clear: keep your mouth shut and keep on saying positive things!

it's hard to take ANY reviews on Amazon.com or other book sites seriously these days because of this vicious cycle that just keeps on going... and the funny thing is that the PA authors feel no shame for doing the circle jerk with each other to promote their book... I'd be embarassed as heck to have nothing but glowing reviews and not a single word of "well, maybe it could have been better..."

but that's part of the PA way of thinking - ANY writing is GOOD writing and how DARE you mention grammar, spelling or basic storyline plotting... 'cause then you're part of the System and stomping down on the poor writer who's just trying to get ahead!

:D

[Ed Williams 3]

In the last couple of days I noticed one of the less than soft spoken "PA Authors" receive a bad review on Amazon. The review seemed to be sincere - it went into detail about how the reviewer liked the premise of the book, but went on to say that the work had so many editing problems that it was not enjoyable for them to read. To me, it seemed to be a mature, well-thought out review. Man, on the PA site, the author of focus screamed bloody murder, had the post deleted, and then had the gaul to say that he/she did it, "not for themselves, but because it defamed PA." Jesus, I'm really starting to believe that PA actually is a cult, any knowledgeable writer knows that bad reviews are going to happen, and, if anything, they can make the work a tad more realistic and believable to others. If these "PA Authors" are serious about being professional writers, they need a massive attitude change towards their handling of criticism - right now, the chips on their shoulders are so big that Paul Bunyon couldn't knock them off.

[XThe NavigatorX]

Man, I looked for the PA thread in question, and it didn't take long to find it. www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/1870.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/1870.htm)



When I'm window shopping on Amazon for books, I always check out the sales rank/review ratio. If the book came out a year ago, is ranked 1,000,000-something but has twenty 5 star reviews, I get pretty suspicious. But if the book has nothing but good reviews and is consistently ranked under 100,000, I tend to put more stock into the reader reviews. I think Amazon should implement something that gives a special icon to reviewers who have actually purchased the book through them.

[FM St George]

"I think Amazon should implement something that gives a special icon to reviewers who have actually purchased the book through them. "

I'd love to see this actually implemented... but I fear that it would fall on deaf ears since PA has this Lending Library that allows you to borrow PA books... and, of course, write glowing reviews...

having said THAT, I've left only a single review on Amazon and that was for "Amata Means Beloved"; a wonderful POD that I was referred to from another board. I liked it and enjoyed it and posted my review - but if I slap up another twenty on PA books (this one, thankfully, was NOT!) I'd not be surprised if I were seen as a PA shill and without any credibility whatsoever...

[vstrauss]

The Midwest Book Review has been around since (I think) the mid-1970's. My impression is that originally it was a fairly respectable review venue aimed at libraries, with the reviews written by librarians and teachers. I can remember seeing its reviews quoted on dust jackets. It now seems to be focused mainly on self-pubbed and small-press-pubbed books, with reviews written by volunteers, many of them self-pubbed authors. Kind of a closed circle.

- Victoria
www.victoriastrauss.com (http://www.victoriastrauss.com)
www.writerbeware.com (http://www.writerbeware.com)

[AnneMarble]

Victoria wrote...
The Midwest Book Review has been around since (I think) the mid-1970's. My impression is that originally it was a fairly respectable review venue aimed at libraries, with the reviews written by librarians and teachers. I can remember seeing its reviews quoted on dust jackets.

Thanks. :) That explains a lot. I think I've seen their older reviews quoted on book jackets, too.

It now seems to be focused mainly on self-pubbed and small-press-pubbed books, with reviews written by volunteers, many of them self-pubbed authors. Kind of a closed circle.

Wow. That sounds like the same circles that write Amazon reviews for some fellow self-pubbed authors' books. Although some of those circles are so closed there is just one person inside the circle. ;) (Last year, a self-pubbed fantasy author was suspected of not only doing his own reader reviews but giving bad reviews to other authors.)

By the way, you haven't lived until you've read a usenet thread of several people reviewing/arguing about a self-pubbed author's fantasy novel ... and then realized they were all posting from the exact same IP address. What an amazing coincidence that all those people shared a computer, even the angry feminist who was flaming him. They must have some interesting family dinners. :tongue The weird thing is that the thread was more entertaining than his excerpt. If he had put as much effort into his books as he did into that thread, he would have a Locus best-seller.

[DaveKuzminski]

In conjunction with our fact gathering concerning rejections, P&E would also like to appeal to authors who were published by PublishAmerica and subsequently banned from using their forum to contact P&E so that we can tally just how many authors have been banned by PublishAmerica which claims that none of their authors have been banned. As with our other request, your identity will remain confidential should you respond to this.

[dgkgoldberg]

this makes me sad, horridly sad

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/8709.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/8709.htm)

here we have a thread where publishing success is equated with beating your relatives into buying your book.

damn, i am only small press published but at least they gave me enopugh copies to fling at aunt rose so she didn't have to give up her blood pressure medicine to have a book of mine to ignore.

this makes me really sad.

these folks equate hustling their relatives to buy a book with the activities of a writer ---
it really is getting to me

[MrsCogan]

If you do a search on "PublishAmerica sample chapter." My book is the 2nd one to come up. (Someone said they read the first three--that would include mine--and said they were "ungood." OUCH!)

About a year and a half ago a friend of mine told me there was this publisher that was really open to new authors. I went to Preditors & Editors and they just said PA was "a small press, some problems with the contract." I had an agent and she agreed to negotiate the contract for me, so that wasn't a problem. I did a search on the name and just got the PA website and nothing else. I read every page of the PA website looking for a scam--someplace where they ask *me* for money. I'm a strong believer in the idea of money flowing *to* the author, not vice versa. They were very clear that they pay the author and would not ask me for a cent and they never have.

I had this hybrid novel that had been around everywhere. Romance readers don't like it because it's too edgy and dark. Action/adventure readers won't touch it with a barge pole because the first two chapters read like a romance. I know I'm highly biased but I think it's a terriffic book and deserves some kind of audience.

So I consigned my soul to the deep and shipped it off to them. It took them 3 weeks to send me an acceptance letter. At first I was excited. Later I began to find out all the stuff you guys talk about: they don't turn anybody down, they give zero author support, sales are on the author's own back and they don't even e-mail easy pointers or any kind of advice or information about how to do a book signing or what goes into a press kit. The books are expensive and hard to sell. Most reviewers won't touch them. Other authors will sneer at you and point and laugh.

Other than those drawbacks, though, it's been a positive experience. I believe the sale of my second book (to a legitimate small press) was partly influenced by the PA book. I now know a *huge* amount about how to sell a book and I'm still learning. I now understand the publishing world and what to look for in contracts. When my second book goes into production, I'll know what to do and when to do it and I'll even have a small cadre of fans eager to read it because they read and liked my first book. (Yeah, I've even sold a few to total strangers.)

I feel like the sale to PA broke up the ice. It put one of my feet on the bottom rung of the ladder. I'm very--painfully--aware that only my writing skills will get me up further rungs.

So though PA isn't Putnam, I don't have any regrets.

Susan Brassfield Cogan

[XThe NavigatorX]

If it makes you feel better, the first three that came up before were different for me back then.

I'm glad you posted. It's good to see balance to the conversation.

[emeraldcite]

I believe the sale of my second book (to a legitimate small press) was partly influenced by the PA book.

congrats on the sale! the system worked for you, but i believe that others are not aware of how the PA system functions.

PA is not necessarily a bad road to travel if you know how to use it; however, PA does try to pass themselves off as a 'traditional publisher' based on their nominal one dollar advance.

[aka eraser]

You made lemonade out of your lemon. That's a good thing.

I wish you continued success. :)

[James D Macdonald]

Many authors make their first sales with their second books. Rather than send a first novel that's made the rounds to a vanity press (and lose the rights to it for seven years in this case), I'd advise putting it in a desk drawer, selling a different book, then seeing if the first book became salable after you had a track record.

After all, the next thing to do when you're submitting your novel is start work on a new book.

[Canada James]

"HapiSofi, although not best known as an author, is a publishing professional who has in fact been traditionally published."

As I said before, if James M. vouches for him I'll swallow it hook, line and sinker.

emeraldcite:
"not to mention, check the PA boards as well, and see the excitement over the famous "dollar" that everyone gets in the mail."

I spent mine. Hey, at the time it was 1.45 Canadian!

FM:
"but that's part of the PA way of thinking - ANY writing is GOOD writing and how DARE you mention grammar, spelling or basic storyline plotting..."

I made the mistake of mentioning that on the PA board once.

Ed:
"In the last couple of days I noticed one of the less than soft spoken "PA Authors" receive a bad review on Amazon."

I had my first bad review today. The writer mentioned that my story was exciting and fun, but there were a few (and only a few) editing problems that "took her out of the story."
Luckily I have the advice of a trusted author to turn to and I just remind myself that she isn't my target audience and, really, what negative comments she had should be more an embarrassment to PA than to myself. She even had the courtesy to email me where she found errors and suggested that "as PA is a print-on-demand they should be able to correct this easily."

Hey, Victoria, want to wave your magic wand and see if you can make this happen?

Actually, if you want a funny PA review story (see I'm not so bad ... my sense of humour is quite entertaining - James M, you can verify this), my first review was so poorly written that I emailed the editor to mention a few mistakes I'd found (basically a misuse of "its" and "it's", among others) and the next time I saw the article there was an apostrophe in every word that ended in "s." I mentioned this, and the next time I logged on it was even worse. At this point I decided to just leave it. (I didn't want to make a huge issue of it; the fact is either PA sent them the book or they bought it because they did not get it from me ... and the guy did take the time to read the thing.)

But I am getting a review from a well-known Canadian SF writer (non-PA, he's published with Scholastic) and he's glad to do it. But I think my point is some reviews are good, some are bad. Some are written well, and some are written poorly. Most authors, not just the PA crowd, need a thicker skin. C'est la vie.

Canada James

[veingloree]

While I hear this advice a lot, can writers really be expected to put there first book in a box in the closet and move on? There is always the legitimate small press and e-publishers. So long as you realise you are a stratum below fully published I see no reason not to use these avenues to extend your learning experience to the realms of contracts, copy-editing, promotion, sales and readers' reviews.

Many first authors will not get to the end of the second book without a little encouragement. Some people may see that as a lack of moral fortitude, but they might be ignoring the fact that they had other sources of support (family, colleagues, even educational background) that others lack. I think the 'building up' technique has as much going for it as the 'saving yourself' technique. Horses for courses. The key is to do your research and make an informed choice that is neither too impulsive nor too perfectionist.

[HConn]

Susan, how long will it be before the rights to your first book revert to you?

[MrsCogan]

to John D. McDonald:
My agent had suggested I wait for the sale of the 2nd book. However, the 2nd book made the rounds also and didn't sell. I needed that "ice" broken somehow.

To veingloree:
Being an author (as opposed to a writer) has been very stimulating to my creative juices and my ambition. Rejection after rejection with no successes is very demoralizing. I felt on the one hand that I should give up and do something else and on the other hand, that giving up would be a betrayal of my gift. A published book--even from PA--has added a lot of energy into the system.

To HConn:
PA wants to keep it for 7 years. I'm hoping I can get it back before then and sell reprint rights to a good press with author support.

I once e-mailed PA and asked for the phone number of one of their sales reps (I had a book store chain wanting to buy a couple dozen copies). Usually they are very prompt with a reply, but *that* email never got an answer! I think I astonished them into silence.

Once I found out what PA was all about, I decided to just act as if it was a real sale and a real publisher and not apologize for them. That stragey has worked well. Also that book isn't the only or the last one I'll ever write and I've been exploring writing short stories lately. That's been fun!

Susan

[FM St George]

that's the way to do it - just move on and consider yourself wiser for the experience. Sure, it's gone for seven years, but that passes soon enough - and you're more the wiser for the entire experience and can pass that onto the newer peeps who might be suckered in by these jerks.

as for those who would suggest lawyers and tons of cash tossed oot and aboot, well... let's just say that I'd much rather spend the cash on postage to get more of my work out there than give it to them!

:D

[James D Macdonald]

... can writers really be expected to put there first book in a box in the closet and move on?

That's where mine is....

[HConn]

That's where mine is headed, as soon as it collects one last rejection.

Sorry, Susan, but I can't imagine feeling energized by what PA has to offer. It seems like such a sad alternative to a being truly published.

[dgkgoldberg]

My first novel is in a box in the closet. I'm glad it is for a number of reasons: it is not as good as I thought it was, had I managed to sell it via some glitch in the universe it would be an embarassment -- but, I think the premise is good and that rewritten it would be something I could be proud of. Had I published it with PA I would have lost the option of rewriting it.

Further, it is not unheard of for writers, even beginners, to get a three book contract from Kensington or Leisure, some times that first novel can be rewritten to fulfill that contractual obligation that the second novel makes possible.

[veingloree]

The book in the closet approach is fine (if not for me). I would strongly suggest that other authors who choose to get the first book in print despite rejection from major publishers should consider small publishers before PA. Small press publication means that you get paid, and not charged. I do subscribe to the rule 'the writer doesn't pay'. Legimate small presses know much more about copy-editing, distribution and publicity than individual writers normally will (especially writers will day jobs like me). If small presses also reject you, then you can always return to the 'closet versus POD' decision.

meanwhile, the second book doesn't write itself. ;)

[dgkgoldberg]

additionally most small presses give you sufficent author's copies to hand out a few to your relatives.

they generally manage to get bookstore placement.

they even provide support materials and send out review copies to places like Locus.

being published by the small press is remarkably like being published.

:rollin

[FM St George]

and, I'd add - scammers like PA don't tell you the costs up front while IUniverse and the other POD's at least tell you what you'll be spending...

I'd have much rather given Xlibris/whoever a few hundred bucks and then felt that I had PAID for the right to rant and rave over bad/nonexistent editing or overpriced books instead of the backdoor raping that PA does - making you pay for the copyright, etc... I'm even seeing posts where PA authors are recommending that any potential authors PAY an editor before submitting to PA in the first place!

does it get any sillier than that???

[AnneMarble]

While I hear this advice a lot, can writers really be expected to put there first book in a box in the closet and move on?

Oh God, yes. :grin I wrote a spy novel in high school, mainly during study hall. I was inspired by, let's see, "The New Avengers" TV show; "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy"; "The Eye of the Needle"; a cute summer camp counselor from Germany :heart ; and a map of Washington, D.C. But I knew nothing about spies, D.C., assassins, Munich, etc. I wasn't quite as bad as the woman in the writing class in "Throw Momma from the Train" who used words like "thingie" in her submarine thriller. But I was close. :o

I'm lucky, I guess, that my first couple of novels were written in wire-bound notebooks. I realized it was easier to write something new than rewrite those books. (Besides, even PublishAmerica would refuse manuscripts in wire-bound notebooks.) I don't regard them as lost or wasted work, anyway. I learned a lot from those novels.

[vstrauss]

My first novel got published. But this was back in the early 1980's, before publishing really started to change so much, when you still could find editors who were willing to take a problematic book in which they saw a spark and work intensively with the author to rewrite it.

That's what I wound up doing--a complete rewrite under the tutelage of an amazing editor who gave me enormous amounts of time and encouragement, and taught me more about writing than anyone I've ever known. It's because of her that I'm a writer today.

I realize how lucky I am--I seriously doubt that this could happen today. I'm sure that my book, which in some ways was surprisingly good but also really imperfect and very amateurish in parts, would not have a prayer of finding publication.

- Victoria

[HapiSofi]

Veingloree, of course it's reasonable to expect writers to put an unsuccessful first novel onto the closet shelf and go on with their writing. Hemingway threw his first novel overboard during an Atlantic crossing. He's hardly the only prominent writer whose first major piece of work didn't jell. I say three cheers for him for so decisively keeping the thing out of print.

Welcome to the arts. When you're learning to throw pottery, the first fifty pots suck and the next fifty aren't as good as they should be. Musicians spend thousands of hours practicing before they're ready to perform. Illustrators start drawing in elementary school, and fill sketchpad after sketchpad with art that'll never see the light of day. They could take those half-baked drawings and give them fancy framing jobs, trying to convince themselves they're something that they're not, but they'd be better off if they instead spent that time working on their skills.

There are two great and primordial rules of writing. One is that if a piece of writing works, it's right, no matter how many theories or conventions it ignores. The other rule is that if a piece of writing doesn't work, there are no excuses. This isn't the Special Olympics, where everyone's a winner 'cuz they try. It's also not a job where you get paid by the hour. A book that doesn't work is a dead book. You can waste more time trying to chivvy a non-viable book into print and onto bookstore shelves than you'd spend writing another, better book.

One thing to bear in mind is that in fiction, readership doesn't fall off smoothly. Wildly popular writers like J. K. Rowling have far more readers than the weaker and less appealing books that lurk at the bottom end of the YA Fantasy field, but that doesn't mean that as you keep moving down the range of quality, potential readership drops off proportionately. Below a certain level, readership plummets to near-zero. A book that isn't commercially publishable probably doesn't have a small audience if published by a small press. What it probably has is next to no audience.

[lovestowrite]

I should have seen it coming and yet I didn't. I too was suckered into PA's promises and from everything I have read on here and numerous boards, I think I made a HUGE mistake with my book!

Now I need help to get out of my contract. The only leverage I have is that I am a newsreporter for a local newspaper and could drag their name through the mud, even though I don't think that will work.

Anyone have any suggestions? My book has NOT been released yet.

Thanks.
Julia

[reph]

Others have asked the same question. You'll find answers on the Take It Outside Board, a bit down the Water Cooler page from the Bewares Board.

[FM St George]

just a note - I've got a Yahoo group started now for those PA authors who want to kvetch and grumble without taking up a lot of board space...

groups.yahoo.com/group/PA...akingFree/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PAauthorsBreakingFree/)

if you're a disgruntled PA refugee and just want to chat, please sign up! Moving on past PA may be hard, but let's do it and keep on writing and improving our skills!

we now return you to our regular thread...

:D

[DaveKuzminski]

Learned there was a topic on the PublishAmerica forum about rejections and one of their authors claims to have seen one as if that answers the question that P&E has posed.

It does not.

What P&E is asking, aside from the four rejections reported to it, is where are the other 15,996 rejections that ought to be out there if PublishAmerica is rejecting 80% of what is submitted to it.

[dgkgoldberg]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/2054.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/2054.htm)

[FM St George]

but notice that the majority of the posters in that thread are actually PROUD that their work was rejected by traditional publishers before PA SOLICITED their work...

yep, it's a strange cult-mind thing - now they're proud 'cause PA rejects some manuscripts... but not too many, shucks, no...

*shakes head*

the PA cult is rather scary to watch after a bit...

[DaveKuzminski]

One individual posted on the PublishAmerica forum:

"Message:
Rejections? I don't care. I received 184 rejection on Detachment X-Ray until--one day a letter from PA asking me to submit for considerations. There were no rejections on Covert Avengers because I sent it to PA first.
Jess"

Since when do legitimate publishers send letters to unknown, unpublished individuals asking them to submit? Certainly, it happens with celebrities such as when Jessica Lynch was approached by publishers who wanted to publish her story. However, she wasn't unknown when they approached her.

[emeraldcite]

but that one rejection was enough of a representation to stand for the whole, just like how the dollar they receive is somehow a representation that their publisher is legit.

[SRHowen]

solicit a submission from me as well, I think it was from the Writer's Write BB system. When they first set up shop they had banner adds there. I would not put it past them to have trolled the boards to find people.

Shawn

[Canada James]

"What P&E is asking, aside from the four rejections reported to it, is where are the other 15,996 rejections that ought to be out there if PublishAmerica is rejecting 80% of what is submitted to it."

All that means is that the others don't read P&E or the other MBs you've posted requests at.

I could ask for emails from the 4 dentists that recommended Colgate (or the one who didn't - I'd like to know why) but whether I got 4 responses or no responses that wouldn't prove anything.

Canada James

[emeraldcite]

without copies of the individual rejection letters from PA, or at least a good deal of them, i wouldn't believe that they are rejecting anyone at all, except for that deemed grotesque or pornographic. whatever sinks someone's boat.

[FM St George]

well, it seems the majority of PA authors don't move an inch from the official board, so I'm not surprised at the lack of responses - they're happy in their own little world and don't venture far from their comfort zone.

as for "rejection" - I would wager a guess that it's more along the lines of "re-write a few parts and then we'll accept it" - meaning that they tweak two lines and then PA takes it in; which is NOT the same thing, imo...

*shrug*

so it goes...

[vstrauss]

I believe that PA rejects manuscripts. I'm sure that it gets a huge number of submissions, and couldn't possibly publish them all, even with its very busy publication schedule. I don't believe it rejected much stuff at the beginning, when it was still building up its business, but it has been very successful in promoting itself, and of course there are all those happy authors, so I think it's likely that PA now _has_ to reject a lot of what it receives just for logistical reasons.

I'm sure it has a number of criteria it uses to automatically set mss. aside: too short, too long, handwritten, typewritten (i.e., not on computer disk), illustrated children's books, written on cocktail napkins, submitted on tape, etc., etc. I really doubt that careful editorial evaluation comes into it, however.

IMO, what's significant isn't whether or not PA rejects manuscripts, but that its claimed rejection rate--80%--is not enough to ensure quality. If you're publishing 20% of what comes across your desk, you're publishing some pretty poor stuff. (I don't believe the 80%, BTW--I'd guess it's more like 40% or 50%.)

- Victoria

[Dragon Chow]

You know, I recall seeing this "20%" figure somewhere on PA web site, but I can't find it anymore. (I'm pretty sure it was Facts and Figures section, but it's not there now.) But if I remember correctly, it was worded something like, "with all the manuscripts we receive, only about 20% of them will be published." I'm pretty sure they didn't say they "reject" 80%, because I remember thinking, hmmm, they probably offer contract to everyone, but only 20% actually sign it.

DC

[ZoeJesnik]

It was only after I had signed and paid with 1stBooks that I noticed that PublishAmerica existed. I waited for a few months after my book went 'live' with 1stBooks before I queried PublishAmerica about my book, Broken Wings: You May Break My Wings, but You Can Never Break My Spirit. I promptly received a rejection letter in my email from PublishAmerica. They didn't want something that already had the stigma of self-publishing to it :ha Apparently they were looking for something fresh.

Now, knowing what I know about PA :bang I am not quite so upset. Originally I thought that PA was a traditional publisher. :smack I guess I was wrong according to most of the posts that I have read. Knowing what I know now, I will not send in my finished manuscript for my second book to them. Nope! It's gonna be traditional all of the way or it can sit on my shelf and collect dust.

By the way, it isn't a very encouraging sign when PA isn't even included in the Writer's Market listings or in the Everything Get Published listings. I would run - run as fast as you can away from those not listed in the above mentioned books. :snoopy

[peachee]

I kind of have to agree w/you on this one. . . .

-- Linda
www.i-am-america.net (http://www.i-am-america.net)

[bentbrains]

I'll agree with you too. :clap :rollin

[ZoeJesnik]

Well, just to help out the cause - I submitted my manuscript to PA. Will I accept if they make an offer? NO! I am querying enough other agents and traditional publishers that I am not worried. I have actually had some good responses.

I will let you know if PA rejects me. What is their amount of time for getting back to you? It has been almost 4 weeks since I submitted it.

We'll just see what they decide to do.

ZoeJesnik@neo.rr.com

www.geocities.com/zoejesnik

[ZoeJesnik]

This work does not currently fit our requirements. The overall story could potentially be marketable. In the end, the book suffers from the lack of a final and thorough edit and revision. There are far too many passive constructions, non-stylistic fragments and other grammar errors to make the book viable. In addition, there are places, especially near the start, where the book rambles from point-to-point. At the crucial hook point of any book this threatens to lose the interest of the reader.

Please do not take this a setback to all your hard work as a writer. We are sure that after the needed edits and revisions, your book will be suitable for publication.

We wish you the best of luck.

Sincerely,
Acquisitions Department
PublishAmerica


The above is the letter that I received from PA about an hour or so after yesterday's post on here. I think that it is very interesting the way they decided to reject it. I am suprised that they found my manuscript to be that bad considering it was edited by a professor who holds a Ph.D. This professor only cited (2) sentences that needed revised, but aside from that - she loved it. She even wrote the Foreword to it.

While I do not believe that my work is above reproach - and we all have something additional that we can do to make our work better - I think that this was PA's attempt at proving a point.

It is amazing how much time POD's have on their hands to watch these boards. I firmly believe that PA saw my postings here and decided to reject it for good measure (I wouldn't have signed a contract with them even if they had offered one....:teeth ).

Just thought I would share this hideous rejection with you.

Beware of the POD :ack

[emeraldcite]

they do watch these boards, and i'm sure if any info that they can crosscheck concerning posters and their manuscript farm, i'm sure they do it.

[James D Macdonald]

You know, if they put half the time and energy they spend on defending their shoddy operation into becoming a real publishing house, they'd have been a real publishing house by now.

[emeraldcite]

lol...so true.

it appears that the only editing that PA is any good at is the editing of posts.

[aka eraser]

I was going to argue with you (mildly), emeraldcite but then realized that deleting is indeed part of the editing process. ;)

[HapiSofi]

Zoe said that PA's very interesting rejection letter said:This work does not currently fit our requirements.Can't they get anything right? The standard phrase is does not meet our current requirements.

Not that they actually have current requirements; you can't be underbought or overbought on one kind of book if you don't have a sales force and don't get bookstore distribution. PA could have three seasons in a row where their list was all vampire western time-travel romances, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.The overall story could potentially be marketable.So could anything. Look at Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats.In the end, the book suffers from the lack of a final and thorough edit and revision.Another comment that could be applied to almost any manuscript out there. And alas, it can also be applied to almost all of PA's titles on the day they're published.There are far too many passive constructions, non-stylistic fragments"Non-stylistic fragments"? That doesn't mean anything! Or rather, it means "fragments of or having to do with style," which in this context is surely meaningless. While the word "stylistic" does occur in real rejection letters from real publishers, it doesn't get used like that -- at least, not in letters written by real editors. and other grammar errors to make the book viable.1. That should be "grammatical errors".

2. That should be "in order for the book to be viable."

3. They should talk about grammatical errors?

4. Unless the problems go deeper than that, it's all surface-level stuff that could be fixed by a good copyeditor.In addition, there are places, especially near the start, where the book rambles from point-to-point. 1. "Point to point" is not being used as a compound adjective, and so ought not be hyphenated.

2. The idea that PA rejects books for loose plot construction is risible. They demonstrably haven't rejected any quantity of books whose plot structures are the equivalent of bolting both wings to the same side of the airplane.

3. I could make you a long, long list of works that "ramble from point to point", ranging from the Odyssey and the Satyricon of Petronius the Arbiter to Malory's Le Morte D'Arthur, Lazarillo del Tormes, and the major works of Henry Fielding, and continuing on down through Tom Sawyer, Huckleberry Finn, and all twenty volumes of Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey & Maturin novels. I won't. As any freshman English major could tell you, that point is not in contention. The question, as ever, is not whether the plot rambles from point to point, but whether it does so in a way that makes us want to come along for the ride. At the crucial hook point of any book this threatens to lose the interest of the reader.That's an awful sentence, graceless and obtuse in several ways at once. I could analyze it, but again I must decline. I refuse to put an order of magnitude more thought and care into analyzing it than its author put into writing it.Please do not take this a setback to all your hard work as a writer. We are sure that after the needed edits and revisions, your book will be suitable for publication.

We wish you the best of luck.

Sincerely,Yadda, yadda, yadda.Acquisitions Department
PublishAmerica"Acquisitions Department"? When their operation consists of three employees in a townhouse in Maryland?

So, is there anything we can conclude about this letter overall? Let's look at it again as a single block of text:This work does not currently fit our requirements. The overall story could potentially be marketable. In the end, the book suffers from the lack of a final and thorough edit and revision. There are far too many passive constructions, non-stylistic fragments and other grammar errors to make the book viable. In addition, there are places, especially near the start, where the book rambles from point-to-point. At the crucial hook point of any book this threatens to lose the interest of the reader.

Please do not take this a setback to all your hard work as a writer. We are sure that after the needed edits and revisions, your book will be suitable for publication.Anyone else notice the real kicker yet? PublishAmerica wrote that letter without reading Zoe's book.

The whole thing's patched together out of fragments and phrases PA's lifted from real critiques and real rejections. Most of its comments could be made about almost any book out there. Those that aren't universally applicable -- for instance, complaining that the plot rambles from point to point -- are such common failings that there's a good chance they'll be applicable anyway; and if they aren't valid for this book, you'd still have to read the whole thing to find that out.

Also, look at the criticisms themselves. They're talking about the whole book: "The overall story." "In the end." "Final edit and revision." Their remarks about passive constructions, "non-stylistic" (yip yip yip yip yip!) fragments, and grammatical errors imply a close, detailed read. Nevertheless, there's not one single word in the letter that talks about anything particular to Zoe's book. This is not possible. If you've read an entire book that closely and are writing to its author, explaining what's the matter with it, it's impossible to not have some particularity creep into your description.

A further problem is that this is supposedly a book that's so bad that even PublishAmerica is rejecting it. Now, as we all know, in order for that to happen, the book would have to be genuinely awful. I beg you'll trust me on this one: no editor would do an end-to-end detailed read on a book that bad unless they were getting paid for it; and when they were finished, their criticisms of it would neither be short, nor colorless, nor abstract. But more to the point, no editor would do a freebie end-to-end detailed read on a book that bad, period. It would be an enormous waste of their reading time. If a book's that bad, you don't have to read to the end to find out.

What do I conclude? I conclude that PA monitors these boards (which we knew already), and cobbled up a quick rejection letter to send to Zoe to "prove" that they do too reject books!

Yeah, right.

Very quickly, on the rest of Zoe's post:I am suprised that they found my manuscript to be that badThey didn't.considering it was edited by a professor who holds a Ph.D. This professor only cited (2) sentences that needed revised, but aside from that - she loved it. She even wrote the Foreword to it. Maybe your professor/Ph.D. is all things wonderful, but I've met plenty of 'em that can't write for toffee. I'm talking seriously bad. I'm not saying yours is; just that it's not a foregone conclusion that they know what they're talking about.

[maestrowork]

considering it was edited by a professor who holds a Ph.D. This professor only cited (2) sentences that needed revised

This is scary.

[emeraldcite]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
considering it was edited by a professor who holds a Ph.D. This professor only cited (2) sentences that needed revised
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is scary.

but a phd in what? people really get taken in with this phd stuff. I've worked with a number of phd's in waiting while at a university. many of them cannot write; but then again, not everyone's field is english...

[HapiSofi]

I have my own stories; but if we go on like this much longer, it's going to sound like we're slagging off Zoe's helpful professor friend, no matter how many disclaimers we attach to our remarks.

[James D Macdonald]

Even if Zoe's PhD was a native speaker of Galego with his/her PhD in minerology, he/she would undoubtedly be better qualified to comment on a manuscript than one of PA's "editors."

What's damning to me is the timeline. I don't believe in coincidences. Zoe posts here, and just hours later PA "rejects" the manuscript? GMAFB.

What happened was Zoe unwisely commented here under the same name that the manuscript was submitted under. From that, it was a matter of minutes for PA to check their logs, find a manuscript under submission with the same name on it, and gen up a fast rejection letter.

[HapiSofi]

Sure. No disagreement. That'll be why there are no specifics in the rejection letter, and why it's disproportionate to the circumstances.

Now, if PA really wants to be taken seriously, one of their staffers has to travel to DC and contrive to personally moon George W. Bush. The day they do that, I'll publicly acknowledge that they're a real publishing house.

[DaveKuzminski]

Interestingly enough, letters have picked up in volume. Still not a lot, but the results from those should be collated and posted sometime tomorrow.

[James D Macdonald]

I think I figured out why PA rejects books that were previously published by other vanity presses: They figure that the niche market (mom and dad and brother Bill and sister Susie) have already bought their copies, so this author won't be able to sell any more -- and there goes their installment-plan vanity fee.

[sweetmags2mi]

It appears to me that Publish America is not as bad as people are claiming. Otherwise, no one realizes what the better business bureau can do for them if they come forward, but it clearly states that Publish America is in good standings with the BBB.

PUBLISHAMERICA, INC.
230 E Patrick St
Frederick, MD 21701
View Location Map



Original Business
Start Date: 9/1/1999
Principal: Willem Meiners, President
Local Phone Number: (240) 529-1031
Fax Number: (301) 631-9073
TOB Classification: Publishers-Books & Magazines


The information in this report has either been provided by the company, or has been compiled by the Bureau from other sources.

Nature of Business

This company offers book publishing services.

Customer Experience

Based on BBB files, this company has a satisfactory record with the Bureau. Any complaints processed by the Bureau in its three-year reporting period have been resolved. The number and type of complaints are not unusual for a company in this industry. dissatisfaction with the company's service

To have a Satisfactory Record with the Bureau, a company must be in business for at least 12 months, properly and promptly address matters referred to it by the Bureau, and be free from an unusual volume or pattern of complaints and law enforcement action involving its marketplace conduct. In addition, the Bureau must have a clear understanding of the company's business and no concerns about its industry.

[PianoTuna]

Nobody deserves PA, but you come close.

[James D Macdonald]

The Better Business Bureau isn't the best place to check for information about publishers or agents. I'm aware of some outright scammers, since convicted in court, who had clean bills with the BBB right up to the day the police came by to box up their offices for evidence.

Better sources of information for writers include <a href="http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/" target="_new">Preditors & Editors</a>, <a href="http://www.sfwa.org/beware/" target="_new">Writer Beware</a>, and <a href="http://www.speculations.com/rumormill/?z=68528" target="_new">Speculations' Rumor Mill</a>.

This board isn't too shabby either, when it comes to accurate info.

Turning to PA specifically now, their claims aren't untrue, if you parse the exact meanings of their words. What they post, though, is false and misleading. Buoyed by your expectations, you're probabaly expecting to sell more than seventy-five copies to family and friends. You're probably expecting to see your book actually on bookstore shelves.

If you really hustle, you can sell more than seventy-five copies. Please don't forget to subtract the costs of publicity from your profits.

And you may be able to get a few copies of your book into bookstores, if you go and plead with the local manager.

Please, read the threads here. There's a lot of good information in them.

[DeePower]

In case anybody wanted to fax PublishAmerica anything, the fax in the better business bureau listing in one of the previous posts does go through to PublishAmerica.

Dee

[Jarocal]

Ed,

You could do just that and still manage to produce books able to be sold at the average price of POD publisher. If you wanted to invest in a certain type of printer you could then do it at above the cost of a standard trade paperback but still offer it for less that the average price of a Authorhouse published paperback.
Considering the demand for a most POD publisher books is no more than 300 according to the averages obtained from using the statistics on their site a person could spend about one weekend making the amount of books that will normally sell under the POD model. They could then submit through Ingrams on their own and have a return policy whereas it may be a tiny bit easier to get small numbers of their books on the shelves of their local book stores.
The only problem with this is they author is spending so much of their time doing what a decent publisher does that they no longer have the time to do what they are supposed to be doing, Authoring books.
The best way I can see this happening is a consultant or speaker who wants to hawk his own books at his seminars. He can make copies available on his website and Amazon.com. Statistics show that the number of copies he will need to backup these sales is low. At his seminars he would need no more than say 50 copies. If for some stroke of luck or act of god the man starts getting orders for thousands or numbers he can't POD. Then he should be able to find a small press willing to buy the rights and takeover production.

[James D Macdonald]

Considering the demand for a most POD publisher books is no more than 300 according to the averages obtained from using the statistics on their site...

Based on other sources of information, that 300 is two to four times higher than the average actually is.

[Jarocal]

I was at least giving them the benefit of the doubt and using their numbers.:grin

[DeePower]

If you are a PublishAmerica author and you have had problems with placing your PA books in bookstores, such as Barnes and Nobles, Borders, BooksAMillion or independent bookstores. Would you please email me a brief description of what happened.

And on the other hand if you are a PublishAmerica author and you do have your books in more than one bookstore and not on consignment I'd like to hear about it as well.

Please feel free to forward this message to others or to post on any discussion boards.

Please email the information to mailto:authors@brianhillanddeepower.com

I will not use your name unless you give me permission, but I would like your real name on the email so I can verify that you are a real person and not just a PA basher or PA shill.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

Add Your Message Here

[DeePower]

142 books released for the first week in June, That's 568 books a month! Right on up there with AuthorsHouse 600 books a month and way past iUniverse.com at 400 and Xlibris at 200 books a month.

And yet PublishAmerica says they're not POD but a 'traditional publising house'.

From www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm)

FACT #5: PublishAmerica is NOT in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy publisher, and has nothing in common with them. Obviously, our authors are also not being self-published. In the most commonly used context, POD indicates "Publish On Demand", or vanity publishing. Vanity publishers charge for their "services". Some charge a few hundred dollars, others a thousand or more. We are not in that league, in any way, shape or fashion.
********************

Well they release as many books as a POD house does.

And again from their website


FACT #11: We assign an editor who goes through the text line by line. Let's put this in perspective. We don't touch style issues, we don't edit the author's voice, tone, or delivery. We edit for spelling, mechanics, grammar, typos, and trust us, that's a vital and time consuming job. Together, our editing staff makes more than 35,000 (!) corrections, each day, to the books they work on that day. We then send a book back to the author, up to three times, to ensure that it looks exactly as the author wants it to look. We assign a graphic designer who comes up with a unique cover design. They communicate with the authors, to hear their suggestions and ideas, so that they can be incorporated into the design. All of that takes time, and we believe that the authors WANT it to take time. After all, this is their life's work. They want it to be treated accordingly. They want time control, they want quality over hurry. We assure them both.
*****************************************

At 35,000 corrections per day that means 175,000 corrections a week, that means this week's books (142) had a little over 1000 corrections each?

It also means that if an editor read each book and it took 8 hours to make the line by line edits, there would have to be a an editing staff of 28 people. How long would it take to do a cover design, an hour, a day? If it just took 4 hours for each cover, they must have a cover design staff of 14.

In an email dated May 20 to me they stated:

"Our operations are expanding. Last month we opened a third office, we are hiring more staff, and we are sending out an average 10-15 press releases
about our new titles and authors every day."
************

Where is their staff to edit those 142 books per week, or design the cover, or send out the press releases to the media? If you would like to look at the size of the PublishAmerica offices go to www.publishamerica.com/Ou.../index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/OurOffice/index.htm)

I just don't see where they hide the staff they must have to provide the services they say they do.

Never mind the book fulfillment processing, billing, or keeping track of royalities.

Dee Power
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[Jarocal]

Where is their staff to edit those 142 books per week, or design the cover, or send out the press releases to the media? If you would like to look at the size of the PublishAmerica offices go to

If you think about the type of work they do that office will more than suffice.

They only edit so far as running a spellcheck and grammar check program over the file. The same person could be scanning a couple files at the same time and still be "checking line by line". It is just the computer is doing the checking. This could also be accomplished by arranging a deal with one of those "work at home" scheme deals that never make the person "at home" any money.

The cover design is an easy task also as it would not be hard to use a template and photoshop with a large collection of public Domain Gif files to slap together a Publish America quality cover in less than an hour. There are plenty of college art students who would be willing to work on the covers for a per piece fee. I would imagine the fee would be rather low hence the quality of the covers. A lot of Authors submit their own which just has to be looked at for size and alter the color mode to CMYK (takes less than ten minutes with photoshop or Quark).

I also doesn't take much to send out the press releases they do. They are all form letter releases and a decent software program would fill in all the blanks for them(which the gathering of information would also leave them with a nice mailing list to sell to a third party periodically). Mainly what would be required is a data entry person from a temp agency to fill in the database info.

Support can be from anywhere and would explain the insistance on utilizing "e-mail only" as a point of contact. The support department would also be in charge of watching the message boards. Support/Monitoring the message forums would probably be the most Human labor intensive. Their are enough emails from posters like HB, and a simple recognition feature to alert the administrators if a certain word or phrase is used would lighten the burden of scanning posts on the forum, but there would still have to be at least one person from support at the computer around the clock.

[DaveKuzminski]

Well, Dee, it's like the old joke about how do you fit five elephants into a Volkswagen beetle? Two in the front seats, two in the back seats, and one in the glove compartment. Obviously, they have a very big closet in that apartment they use for an office since those don't have glove compartments and that's a near equivalent.

Jarocal is essentially right. That one person also would be monitoring several other forums such as this to use our eyes as well in uncovering the subversives.

Anyway, they're still nearing their millionth book? So, how long is that claim supposed to run before they up it?

And to give credit where it's due, Dodgem James has been consistent on one thing. He has stated courageously and repeatedly on the PAvidian boards that the writers there shouldn't purchase their books to resell, especially at a loss. It's a dangerous dance he's performing in front of PA's open jaws. They're not going to put up with that for much longer in light of the fact that they're urging their authors to purchase more of their own books and those of other writers at a discount.

[AC Crispin]

Speaking of Canada James, I wonder how many books he's sold, and whether his sales figures are what he expected? His book has been out for quite a while now.

-Ann C. Crispin

[DeePower]

I do have better things to do than become fixated on PublishAmerica. But since I'm documenting some of these findings for our law firm to use to terminate our contract with PublishAmerica I thought I might as well post what I find here and on other various boards.

So far for June PA has released 219 books. It makes you wonder about their quality control doesn't it?

John Wiley & Sons, the publisher of our first two books releases 1500 books a year, at the rate PA is going they will release over 5000.

Oh and there is a post at the PA boards that is just hysterical.

Somebody is slamming PA
www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10102.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10102.htm)

Here's the post that is so naive about real traditional publishing houses:

Begin Post

“If any others here have been published elsewhere you would realize that the market is changing.

Try and get published by the big five-have you?

The big five will not give you any more than you are getting now, except your book on the bookstore shelves.

A lifetime contract on your book they accept, and when it needs a second printing; they want 6-7-8,000 bucks to do a second printing.

I tried to get my childrens book, The adventures of Toby Anderson reprinted from 1990, notta, big bucks if you want it in a second printing.

Be happy do your best to make a name for yourself, advertise, sell, and not just to family, friends and other authors.

There are thousands and thousands of books on the shelves and authors to go with them.

P.A. is a great place for YOU."
End Post

This guy actually thinks the big five - which I assume he means is Time Random House Inc., Penguin USA, Simon & Schuster, Time Warner and HarperCollins in that order, requires their authors to pay them for a second printing!!!

That just shows how incredibly naive PA authors are. That entire thread is an embarrassment highlighting the lack of knowledge PA authors have of the industry. Oh wait. That’s what PublishAmerica wants, naïve authors.

I also get a giggle out of his statement "There are thousands and thousands of books on the shelves and authors to go with them."

It's true, it's just the thousands and thousands of books those shelves in the bookstores are not PublishAmerica books.

While you're reading the thread, HB is up to his old rantics (ranting antics - get it?) again.

"

Message:
CORRECTION!
PA did NOT have a bad reputation that they turned around. A few idiots never read their contract and expected everything to be done for them. The reputation was a fictional accounting by a few disgruntled authors who pooled together and stirred each other up. What has turned around is that those people look stupid anymore since more bookstores are becoming informed and carrying PA books. The numbers are growing and the bashers are being ignored and laughed at."

This is not true, given that POD publishers (authorshouse.com, PA etc., etc.,) are releasing upwards of 2000 books a month or 24,000 books a year and that rate is accelerating, it's becoming more and more difficult for POD including PA books to get into bookstores, independents or otherwise.

Now back to my regularly scheduled writing. I am on a deadline for our new book, “The Making of a Bestseller,” Dearborn Trade March 2005.


Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[OpportunityBooks]

Hi Dee,

I'm new to this board and read your last post. You mentioned that you are currently seeking ways to terminate your contract with PA, if you don't mind will you tell me why?

I too am with PA and was not satisfied with the type of attitudes that I was getting from major bookstore, but I took this as a learning lesson. And this is the reason that I decided to open a bookstore that will help people with print-on-demand books without them having to pay for it. If you had this type of service would you still be in the process of terminating your contract?

[DeePower]

PublishAmerica has many areas where they don't live up to what they imply they will do. I expected our book to be in thousands of bookstores, just like our previous two books published by John Wiley & Sons are. I was shocked when Barnes and Noble refused to stock it, and when Borders said the book was not in their system to order.

And that was just the beginning of a number of incidents.

Dee
wwwBrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://wwwBrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[OpportunityBooks]

Thanks Dee,

I'm sorry that you're going through the things that you are with your book. After all of the work a person puts into their book I believe they should be happy with the end results of their publisher and I wish you all the luck in the world.

But can you please answer the question that I asked you before, if you had a service that was willing to work with you, would you still be in the process of canceling your contract with PA?

Thanks

Nea

[DeePower]

I don't want our book in one or two or ten bookstores. I expected that our book would be in thousands of bookstores just like our nonfiction books are.

Here are additional reasons why I am terminating our contract with PA

Reviewers will not review PA books. Booklist requested a review copy of our novel and then refused to review it when they found out the publisher was PA.

PublishAmerica does not obtain a LOC description (Library of Congress) so libraries will not buy the book.

Borders said the book was not available through their computer system even to special order.

There is no discount given on amazon.com for PA books and customers expect that discount, so sales are minimal.

PA did no marketing of our book, no press release, no review copies.

PublishAmerica has a reputation of accepting just about anything, this has hurt our reputation as a legitimate published author.

PublishAmerica is condescending, rude and discourteous to us as authors.

And I could go on. But I was in such a good mood.


Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[DaveKuzminski]

I just received an email from an anonymous author whose book was published by PublishAmerica who claims that his book sold a thousand copies. It will be interesting to see if he responds to my request for a title and author name so that I can attempt to verify that there were actually that many sales.

[priceless1]

Dave, the only person I can imagine who may have sold 1,000 copies is that book by Jason Fodeman How To Destroy A Village: What The Clintons Taught A Seventeen Year Old. He had a ready-made base of buyers because he interned for a congressman, I believe. I could be wrong, though.

Lynn

[James D Macdonald]

Based on Amazon numbers Nightmares Echo (http://1.junglescan.com/scan/details.php?asin=1592866220&days=30) by Katlyn Stewart is probably sneaking up on 600+ copies sold.

[astonwest]

www.mindsightseries.com/d...#POST36700 (http://www.mindsightseries.com/discus/messages/1/3548.html#POST36700)

Actually, here's an author who sold over 1300 copies, and for some reason, they terminated her contract...oops.

Big Daddy West
:hat

[James D Macdonald]

Nancy Mehl? She's one (of two) PA authors who got their book reviewed in Library Journal.

(And if she's the same Nancy Mehl who had a book come out in 2002 from American Book Publishing she hasn't learned to stay away from bad deals....)

[astonwest]

I don't know whether she had a book come out from American Book Publishing or not...that would be a question for her. However, the wording of your retort was a bit unnecessary, in my opinion...

I'm just pointing out that there has been at least one author who sold more than 1000 copies...nothing good is done by hiding these facts. Since Lynn mentioned she only thought Fodeman had sold over 1000 copies, I interjected to correct this misinformation.

It can be pointed out at any time that such success stories (relative to the other books in the PA stable) are few and far between (2 or 3, maybe 5? Who knows? But out of 8000 authors...)...without saying such things as "she hasn't learned to stay away from bad deals" (even IF it is the same person).

Would be interested to know who the other PA author is who was reviewed in LJ.

:hat
Big Daddy West

[RejectME]

I have also heard that most PA authors/writers sell only about 150 copies of their way overpriced trade paperbacks, but just out of curiosity, how many copies does a first time, unpublished author with a large New York House usually sell on average in a year?
I understand that there's a big difference in pricing and perhaps a little publicity if the publisher thinks the topic of the novel may be hot, but it isn't like they are getting promotional money, right?

:hug

[goomee]

When a publisher gives you an advance, prints at least 2,000 copies of your book, etc., I would think they're going to give you some sort of promotional assistance. Of course, those they give huge advances to are going to get more promotion just because the publisher has invested so much more into them.

I would think most first timers have a little more sales simply because their books are listed for booksellers to find and in turn are on shelves for readers to find.

One of the main problems with PA is that they want to knock out the middle step in the sale of books. They work very hard to convince the author that bookstores, distributors, etc. are unnecessary and PA and belief in their book are all they need.

[DaveKuzminski]

I just received a request from a writer to participate in contract negotiations with PublishAmerica. Much as I would like to help that writer, I had to decline because that would constitute a conflict of interest for P&E to act as an agent when we post so many recommendations concerning agents.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>When a publisher gives you an advance, prints at least 2,000 copies of your book, etc., I would think they're going to give you some sort of promotional assistance. Of course, those they give huge advances to are going to get more promotion just because the publisher has invested so much more into them.<hr></blockquote>

It doesn't even start at the magic number of 2,000 copies. We do give advances and our print runs are smaller. But, nonetheless, they are print runs that are warehoused for speedy fulfillment. Since we're small and new, most of our investment is going into editing (copy and developmental) cover design and marketing. Promotion is what it's all about. If we can help our authors get the word out about their wonderful novels, then everyone wins. This translates to outside sales, which is far better than sales that are only generated by whatever the author buys. This also gives way to reviews, to which we happily send out a copy.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I would think most first timers have a little more sales simply because their books are listed for booksellers to find and in turn are on shelves for readers to find.<hr></blockquote>

That is not necessarily true. As has been discussed many times on this board, there is a finite amount of shelf space in bookstores. It's also very political. For a little publisher to obtain shelf space in a chain, there must be a great deal of greasing, cajoling and dogged determination. We fit that mode for now. In turn, it's important to investigate alternative avenues for selling books.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>One of the main problems with PA is that they want to knock out the middle step in the sale of books. They work very hard to convince the author that bookstores, distributors, etc. are unnecessary and PA and belief in their book are all they need.<hr></blockquote>
This, I feel is the crux of their problem and could prove to be their eventual swan song. If they simply stated upfront exactly what their business plan is, there would be no reason for duplicity. Everyone would understand how they operate, and no confusion would ensue, resulting in an open policy of clarity. And, they would still have plenty of submissions. Truly sad for all parties.

[goomee]

Lynn,

You're right, of course, about the fact that every book is not going to be on every shelf, etc. I was unsure how exactly to say what I was trying to say there. I understand that much must often be done by the publisher and the author to generate interest in the work. However, with my formerly PA book I generated interest by a bookstore several times and every time, it was listed as unavailable. There is nothing an author can do at that point or, at least, nothing that appears even halfway legitimate. Again, that is where a publisher who cares comes in. A publisher who cared about either the author or the investment they've made to publish the book, would have fixed the problem instead of acting like I was lying and/or the bookstore manager was wrong every time.

I assume Behler doesn't leave all the "greasing, cajoling and dogged determination" to the authors, nor the "investigating alternative avenues", right? Nor does my publisher who is also small and new.

:)

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I assume Behler doesn't leave all the "greasing, cajoling and dogged determination" to the authors, nor the "investigating alternative avenues", right?<hr></blockquote>

Um, in a word, no. All our books have a return policy, we have a marketing dept. and work very hard to get the word out. It is still up to the author to do their own due diligence at the local levels while we hit the national levels.

[NancyMehl]

Ooooh. Something about me. Just now found this.

James - I wrote a book for American Books back in 2001. I didn't pay them to publish it - they asked me to do it. It focuses on a specialized field, dealing with elderly people. This is the area I work in. (Department on Aging) Yes, I know now what they are, and I spend zero time promoting that book. In fact, I just ignore it.

I signed with PA because another author recommended them - and because PA assured me that they were not a POD publisher. Dumb mistake, but when I signed, all the info that is out now wasn't available. Signing with them came after the American Book deal.

Your assumption is wrong.

Yes, my book was reviewed favorably by Library Journal - as was my friend's book. I recommended her book to the same reviewer. That is how she got in.

I have sold over 1300 books. Boom, without warning, PA cancelled my contract for lack of sales. Is that insane or what? I have posted my sales figures in MindSight for other authors who want out of their contracts. It would seem a little unusual for PA to note my lack of sales as a reason for dismissal, yet refuse to release others whose sales have been much less. Of course, this is PA.

Have I learned my lesson? I hope so. I recently sold a series to Zumaya Publishing. They are an up and coming publisher with great sales. They actually promote their books. The one problem with them is that they do use POD technology, but they seem willing to work with their authors. I have a lot of confidence in them. Their authors seem very happy.

I have an offer on another book from TrebleHeart Books, based on a few changes they want in the manuscript.

My book with PA is being re-released through a small, but promising publisher, for a better price. The books are returnable, as are books with TrebleHeart.

I haven't gotten the "big" publisher yet, but I have an agent with a proven track record who believes in me.

Hopefully, I am on a better track now.

Thanks for your concern.

Nancy

[sancrough]

Here's my answer to your question. I will NEVER again go with a POD. I was upset from the very first time but thought, hey! It will work out, but it hasn't. When I got $6.00 royalty that's when I knew something was very wrong. Also when Barnes & Noble, L.A. Times and other reputable critics said the book was not of the quality - presentation, etc. that they would not critique it. That did it for me. The contract, according to what I read, said it would be in "thousands" of brick and mortar stores. Where are they? Even if I had my own bookstore to put the book in, I would not go with PA.

[DaveKuzminski]

Who thinks I should send Meiners a present from the P&E store at URL www.cafeshops.com/attackbutterfly (http://www.cafeshops.com/attackbutterfly) ? Perhaps a clock or calendar?

[aka eraser]

I think it's a terrific idea. Send something inexpensive though. I suspect it will end up in pieces.

[DeePower]

Go to www.publishamerica.com/sh.../index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/index.htm)

Put in the title Overtime in the search box and then when it comes up. Click on read reviews.

Dee Power
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[Nameless65]

Is the book really $19 for the paperback edition?

[DeePower]

Actually the list price is $21.95. PA offers a "discount."

Dee

[aka eraser]

I guess the countdown is on now Dee. How long before your "review" is yanked?

[DaveKuzminski]

Yikes, their reviews allow anyone to post. Oh man, it would be like shooting fish in a barrel with a sawed-off shotgun. I think a few of them should be grateful that some of us are not as vindictive as we've been characterized. Of course, I do not speak for everyone.

[DeePower]

It's been up since June 21. If they delete it I will just repost it again and again. You don't to register or need a password to post a review.

Dee

[astonwest]

"Actually the list price is $21.95. PA offers a "discount.""

Lest anyone actually think PA is giving a true 'discount' on the books in their online store, let's remember that shipping on one book runs $3...although cheaper than buying one through Amazon, it's a little bit deceptive in that fashion...

Big Daddy West
:hat

p.s. I foresee the review being yanked before long, because it's been mentioned on this board...

[DaveKuzminski]

Now they want to do an email campaign against the reviewer and the paper at URL www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5044.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5044.htm)

Here's what's posted in case it's yanked soon:

JMGBooks



7/20/2004
13:52:51
Subject: And now...a depressing story


Message:
After posting earlier this morning about my sucess at setting up my first signing and how wonderful that was, I now have the exact opposite type of story.

In my efforts to contact the various media outlets in my area (Rhode Island, southern Mass areas), I have made tons of calls to local newspapers, etc. The main one I wanted is called the Providence Journal. It is the largest paper in the area and I really wanted them to do a pieces on the book, knowing that it would raise the awareness level.

Well anyway, I finally reached the book editor there today and told him why I was calling. His first question was "who published the book". When I told him PublishAmerica he refused to do anything for the book. He said he doesn't do "self published" books. I politely explained that PA is not self publishing. He replied with "it might as well be, they'll publish anything that is submitted to them". I again explained that that was untrue and said that while they accept more books than many other publishers, they are in no way a vanity press that prints everything.

They guy didn't want to hear it...he wasn't so much rude as he was set in his opinion and refused to hear anything to the contrary.

What a bummer...like I said, this is the biggest paper in the area and I really had hoped to get them on board for an article.

Just thought I'd share this...as wonderful as the highs are and as great as they are to share, the lows also are a reality of the business, right?

Are there any other RI based authors with PA who have had similar problems with the Journal?

Jeremy Marc Girard
"A Dreamer's Story"
www.jmgbooks.com

JuneBug

7/20/2004
14:02:54


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Dear Jeremy,
I've worked in sales, so I know about the feeling of rejection, particularly when it is not based on facts.

I live in San Diego, CA, so I don't know about the Providence Journal, but what I would do is print out the "About Us" section from PA and send it to the book editor. If he bothers to read it, he will see that PA is not a vanity press, and he will also see that they do select the books they choose to publish based on merit.

Good luck and much success to you!

June Weiner
HOME SWEET HOME (in editing stages!)
www.juneweiner.com (under construction)

MN Freeda

7/20/2004
14:39:12
RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Though PA's bad reputation originates in rumor and a few disgruntled customers, it has affected my book in similar fashion.

I have been rejected by book editors left and right who see "Publish America" and refuse to accept a review copy or even respond to a follow-up e-mail.

We PA authors must do our part to promote this company with as much fervency as we display in marketing our books. It is also incumbent upon PA itself to counter these beliefs with the facts.

-MN Freeda

JMGBooks

7/20/2004
14:45:37
RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
I have no problem with rejection...I mean, it is not pleasant, but I am not so naive that I expect to never be rejected. What really bothered me was the fact that this guy, who is the book editor for the largest paper in my state, is misinformed and set in his opinion of PA.

The idea of printing the page from the website to send to him is a good one, but I don't think it will do anything to change his mind. He really seemed set in his ways and unwilling to budge from that opinion.

Rejection based on facts in one thing...rejection based on misinformation is another altogether. I have read the negatives on PA, and as a PA author I will say that 99.9% of it is simply false information, which is distressing.

I am going to move past this though and make the interviews I do get that much better because of it!

Lori Ann

7/20/2004
14:49:04


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Hi Jeremy,
I had a similar experience with the press. I got a call from a local newspaper, the reporter wanted to interview me about my book. Of course I was VERY excited about it. We did the interview, which went just fine, and I found out that she was interviewing other authors as well, fine and dandy also. The article comes out, and it is an article about self-publishing...I had no idea that was what she was going to write about. I wasn't pleased at all about being lumped in with this other group...but of course it was too late by then. At least it was some publicity for me, a lot of the article was about my book, and a good size photo of me holding a copy of Follow Your Heart. But it is defintely not the tear sheet I was hoping for to put in my portfolio/media kit. Oh well, I have others, but was hoping for a new one. My experience with the press has been that they ALWAYS get something wrong!

On a more positive note, I stopped by the library today to find my book checked out again...it was more than worth it to donate a copy, as quite a few people have read it so far, and I don't ever see it sitting on the shelf.

Lori
Follow Your Heart
www.authorsden.com/loriaparis

gold

7/20/2004
14:56:33


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Lori,
You may have an opportunity here. If this was a recent article, I would gather the information as June mentioned, send it to them and ask for a retraction. If they printed an "untruth" it's up to the paper to correct it, they are usually quite good about it.

If it's not recent you may not have any luck there.

Kevin James
The Single Dad's Survival Guide
www.kevin-james.com

Lori Ann

7/20/2004
15:47:09


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Kevin,
I did think about it, seriously. In the end I decided it was too much trouble, and what I intend to do is to get another interview, with another paper, instead. :)
Lori

shannonds

7/20/2004
16:00:23


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Jeremy,
I am so sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience. I sincerely hope that you have better luck with others. I hope your books sells millions and you can go back and show it to that guy. :) Best of luck to you.

Shannon Stafford
"Inspiration Through The Years"
ISBN: 1-4137-4228-9
www.geocities.com/shannon...epage.html (http://www.geocities.com/shannonds/homepage.html)
www.publishedauthors.net/shannonstafford (http://www.publishedauthors.net/shannonstafford)
shannonstafford.bravehost.com/ (http://shannonstafford.bravehost.com/)


argilestox

7/20/2004
16:44:55

argilestox
Computer-End Program

RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:

Just for grins, I sent a Op-Ed piece to The Pantagraph (Central Illinois local paper) and the New York Times about my memoir. It was titled "Whistle-Blowers Angst".

I received an automated e-mail that stated it is being processed for review and publication. In the same breath, it stated if I do not hear from them within ten days, I would be free to submit it elsewhere.

A review of a book should not be stymied by one persons predigest about a publisher.

Have you thought a telephone campaign that would light up the switchboard of the Providence Journal, by people who have read your book?

Maybe, if that paper heard from enough of their subscribers, demanding that this paper update their book review practices - it would change their mind.

Argile Stox
mysite.verizon.net/res8nrbr/ (http://mysite.verizon.net/res8nrbr/)



PCJ

7/20/2004
17:27:03


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Well, as I read the post, an idea formed. I am going to make a cover letter for my "kit" with the PA web page title bar, including the "we treat our authors the old fashion way, we pay them." That will be the first thing they see, and they should get the right impression. Under that my book cover, then my introduction.

Patricia
www.pcjnovel.com

Infocenter
Administrator
7/20/2004
17:51:32

RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Well, let's see...

What does The Providence Journal have in common with, let's say, the
Tallassee Tribune,
Windsor-Hights Herald,
The Glendale Star,
The Hartford Courant,
Wellsville Daily Reporter,
Nevada Appeal,
The Guardian,
The Miami Herald,
Houston Chronicle,
The Gainesville Sun,
Florida Times-Union,
South Bend Tribune,
Butler Eagle,
Austin Daily Herald,
Appalachian News-Express,
Oakland Press,
The Washington Post,
The Detroit News,
The Sierra Times,
Vancouver Sun,
Knoxville News,
The Columbus Dispatch,
The Oregonian,
The Dallas Morning News,
Fort Worth Star Telegram,
The Philadelphia Inquirer,
Pittsburgh Tribune Review,
or the St. Louis Post-Dispatch,
(are you still there...?)
just to name a random few out of hundreds and hundreds of well established newspapers?

Exactly, they recognize PA authors as what and who they are: serious writers whose work deserves serious attention. That's why they all have written about PA authors such as yourselves, and they continue to do so every day.

Yes, also The Providence Journal. Seems you talked to the wrong guy, Jeremy. Only a few months ago, his much less elitist colleague Richard Dujardin wrote a very supportive interview with a local PA author, in the very same newspaper, the very same The Providence Journal. He included this portion:
"Emigh's contract with Publish America, the Maryland-based publishing firm that's paying her for the book, says publication will take place within the year. She says the firm has a reputation among writers as being open to the works of previously unpublished authors."

Same newspaper, different standards. You talked to the arrogant book editor, Ms. Emigh talked to the hard-working local reporter.

Details? See
www.publishamerica.com/Press/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/Press/index.htm)
www.publishamerica.com/Press/emigh.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/Press/emigh.htm)

Moral: avoid the arrogant book editor, ask for the hard-working local reporter. They almost always say yes to PublishAmerica authors, as you can see at a glance when you hit the Press Clippings tab at the top of this page. And that's just a sample!

kas

7/20/2004
18:20:03


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
You can also add,

The Dayton Daily News, and The Piqua Daily Call.

Again, it takes ten sales calls to get a sale. Apply your own situation.

One thing is for sure, you can't be is shy.

If at first you don't succeed.....


marti2003

7/20/2004
20:42:43


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:

1. We could flood this guys email with protests from PA authors, or ...

B. We could hire a hit man.



EZ

7/20/2004
21:29:57
RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Hmmmm... I bet that guy has a boss somewhere that just MIGHT be interested in the fact that his EMPLOYEE has just snubbed an author that has the ears of hundreds, if not thousands of other authors? Brings a whole set of ideas to mind....


Bruce
B.L.Robinson
The Battle Between

marti2003

7/20/2004
22:02:01


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:

See, we need to start a war -- we're being selectively ignored, we're mad as H E double toothpicks and we're not going to take it anymore! There, I feel better.

Seriously, we could start a letter/email campaign everytime one of us is "verbally abused" because we choose to be published by PA. ***Seriously,*** we've done it before. One of our authors got an interview in a paper and then the reporter proceeded to say she paid to get published. I put a notice on this board, several of us protested and the paper retracted and apologized. It really works.

So Jeremy, what's this guys email address?


Henry

7/20/2004
22:35:27
RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Also, a big round of applause for the
TAMPA TRIBUNE here in Florida.
They were very accommodating with my information about Publish America.
See article here:
www.geocities.com/ridefl/...icles.html (http://www.geocities.com/ridefl/NewsArticles.html)
Cheers,
Henry Custer
www.henrycuster.com

JLRutter

7/20/2004
23:27:42


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Just one suggestion: Perhaps, if it is possible to do so, you might try walking into the newspaper place in person. They will direct you to the right person and a face-to-face meeting with the book in hand may work. Ask to set up an appointment for an interview far enough in advance so the newsperson can read your book. Give him/her written information about the upcoming booksigning, and all other pertinent information. And smile. Maintain eye contact. Hey, I tried it and it worked. :)

Joy

JMGBooks

7/21/2004
08:16:27
RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Wow...thanks for all the support and feedback. The book editor I spoke with is named Doug Riggs. His email (which I found right on the paper's website) is driggs@projo.com.

I will try to get a reporter to speak with me, but the tough thing is when you call, they just forward you to the book editor, who I obviously had no luck with.

I tried to make him aware that his opinions on PA were false...but no luck, maybe the full brut on PA authors informing him of his mistake will make him see the light?

Jeremy Marc Girard
"A Dreamer's Story"
www.jmgbooks.com

JMGBooks

7/21/2004
09:13:12
RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
You know, after reading everyone's comments about this situation, I realized that I was letting this editor treat me unfairly based on misinformation. That is wrong and I just won't accept that. Here is the letter I sent over to the paper. If anyone else, fellow PA authors, want to write the paper to express their interest in seeing them cover a legitimate book published by PA, please feel free to email them. You can email them at pjfeat@projo.com or pkukiels@projo.com.

Here is what I sent over...(it is long, be warned)
-----------------------

Providence Journal staff members,

I am a lifelong RI resident and the Providence Journal has been my source of news for many, many years, through the printed paper and now also through the Projo.com website, which allows me to catch up on RI news even when I'm away from my home. I have always enjoyed the paper and felt that it was the most informative, well put together publication available for RI residents. This is why I felt it was so important to contact you when I recently achieved a major milestone in my life.

I recently had my first book published, an accomplishment that I was very proud of and wanted to share with my fellow Rhode Islanders. It is a children's fantasy/adventure book, in the tradition of the Chronicles of Narnia or Harry Potter, two series which my book has received comparisons to in early reviews. As a lifelong RI resident, (I grew up in Woonsocket and currently live in Narragansett) I felt that there would be some interest in doing a story on this book, due to my local ties. Furthermore, the book was illustrated by another RI resident, a man named Jack Long who lives in Providence and who is a graduate of the Rhode Island School of Design.

I recently contacted your paper, hoping to find someone who would be interested in this story, the publication of a book written and illustrated by two RI residents. I was forwarded over to Doug Riggs and spoke with him about my book and my desire to receive some coverage on it.

Mr. Riggs informed me that he does not do stories on self published books. That is fine, I understand he has criteria that he uses to select his stories, but what bothered me is the fact that my book is not self published. It is published by a company called PublishAmerica, out of Baltimore, MD. They are a small press, but they are in no way a vanity press or self publishing company. Self publishing requires the author to pay substantial fees for editing, printing, etc. PublishAmerica did not ask for, or receive any money from me for accepting my book. In fact, they paid me for it, the same way that the major publishing houses do. They have promoted the book nationally and have at no time ever asked me for money for any of the services that they have rendered. So I ask you, why couldn't my book be considered for an article in the paper?

Mr. Riggs went on to say that PublishAmerica accepts all books that are submitted to them. This is also untrue. Admittedly, they accept a larger number of books than the major publishing houses do, but by no means do they accept all works. PublishAmerica is a business, just like any other. Their goal is to make money and they do so by accepting works that they feel they will be able to market effectively. They do accept many first time authors, authors who, due to their lack of having anything printed previously, may have a very difficult time even getting their work viewed by the larger houses. This willingness to give untested authors a chance should not be construed as a willingness to publish everything, however. Unfortunately, Mr. Riggs seems to feel that it does.

I understand that your paper can not print everything, and if my book was rejected based on literary merit, I would understand and accept the decision. What bothers me is that my book is being rejected based on preconceived opinions about the publisher, opinions which quite frankly are based on incorrect facts.

As I said in the beginning of my letter, I am a lifelong RI resident who has read your paper for many years. I have read the book reviews and stories in the paper and as a RI resident, I know that I would much rather read a story about two fellow Rhode Islanders who had had a book published than a story about some random author who has no connections to our state. National news is an important part of the paper, but it is very nice to read about fellow Rhode Islanders who have done something good. That, I feel, is what my story has to offer your readers.

All I am asking for is a chance to have my book reviewed by someone at your staff for a story. It does not need to be a formal book review. In fact, I think that the local feel of the story is better served with an article as opposed to a simple review about the book. As I said earlier, I understand that there is criteria that you use to select which stories deserve to be printed and which stories must be passed over, but please, if you pass on my story, do so for the right reasons, not because of misinformation.

I thank you for your time and look forward to hearing from you regarding these concerns.

Jeremy Marc Girard
“A Dreamer’s Story”
www.jmgbooks.com


eleefish

7/21/2004
09:43:24


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Jeremy,

Great letter!!! It just has to get a favorable response from the paper. I'm going to copy and save it for future use if needed.

Good luck and best wishes,

Lee

Joyce Ann

7/21/2004
09:58:45


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Great letter! This is exactly what we need to do to
support PA and demolish the false image some have of
it as a vanity publishing company.

I, too, will print your letter for reference if needed.

Joyce Ann
thelisteningtree.net (http://thelisteningtree.net)

Sue Curran

7/21/2004
10:21:29


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
May I suggest a different approach? Find a smaller local newspaper. I live in a small town in Wisconsin 45 miles south of Madison-WI's capitol for those of you who flunked geography with me. The article the paper ran generated enough interest that a small independent bookstore in Madison agreed to host a signing and sell my books for me. I purchased enough of the books so that residents of Monroe can call me if they wish to purchase an autographed copy.
Sometimes, smaller is better.

Sue Curran
Blood Dreams and White Lies
www.susangastoncurran-author-sites.com
"I kill people for a living. I just make 'em up first."

greatlakeswoman

7/21/2004
10:28:50

Barbara Spring
The Dynamic Great Lakes
The Wilderness Within
www.geocities.com/barbaraspring
RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
A beautiful letter. I like the idea that a story about the author and the book would serve the community well. I have found that newspapers often prefer to interview the author about the book rather than a review. This works well. But I have also had newspapers review the book.

Eleanor

7/21/2004
10:44:19


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Great letter, Jeremy, because it is written to the point with gentle directness and class and it should appeal to the spirit of your state. (They would have to be real A--'es to ignore this one. Let us know when you get a full page retraction and interview! LOL! Good job!

ElAspin

JMGBooks

7/21/2004
11:10:06
RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
To the person who suggested contacting smaller papers in the state...I have done that also, but as I said before, this particular paper is distrubuted to the entire state, while many of the smaller papers have much smaller runs.

I want it in both...the big paper and the small papers, so hopefully this letter will open some eyes and show what PA is REALLY all about.

Thanks to everyone for the comments on the content of the letter...I will let you all know if I receive any kind of response.

JuneBug

7/21/2004
14:29:24


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Jeremy, your letter was perfect. It was professional, educational and to the point. I personally think you will get a positive response. We're all rooting for you!

June Weiner


georgie girl

7/21/2004
19:51:16
RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Let's join the band wagon fellow authors. We
should all email the editor. Enlist family and
friends to do the same. If PA is not going to
take action we should. Again, united we
stand...

Georgie Girl

Carl Baxter

7/21/2004
20:37:34
RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Jeremy:

You have a nice letter and all, and lots of support, but a bad or lackluster review can kill you in a major regional paper, and that is what you are going to get by trying to force the issue. Better think about it.

gannon1212

7/21/2004
21:11:00


RE: And now...a depressing story


Message:
Hey guys and gals I was in sales for 40 years. NO is a pretty common word but the key is persistence.

Providence is only one paper. Your PA infocenter administrator gave you a great list of area newspapers and the key to find many more.

Here's what I did with my last book.

Recorded Intro, bio, synopsis, prologue, first ten chapters and last ten chapters on CD-ROMS.

Made good looking labels to go on them.

Sent them in those neat CD mailers to the fifty largest newspapers in the country. I don't know if any of them reviewed 'Sound of Shadows' but my book sales took a jump.

I'll be doing it again with my second book 'September Shadows' recently submitted to PA.

Cost about a dollar per if you buy right.

No CD burner? Do the same with floppy disks.

Doesn't take much room in a reviewer's office and just might catch some attention.

Semper PA

Ned

[Jarocal]

Pa's own response in the thrad shows that Book reviewers don't like to touch PA's books. Or at least that's what I got from them telling the person to talk to a reporter instead of the guy who does book reviews. Pa probably does not want actual book reviews because the the reviewer would invariably start pointing the finger at the way the book was poorly edited. I think they should start doing coookie cutter reviews of PA published books that read:

"The story is good and has potential to be a best-seller, but it falls short with a lack of editing from the Publisher. I merit <insert author's name>, for creating a nice tale, but have to give the editorial staff at the publisher a thumbs down for not polishing this work with the little editorial changes necessary to allow it the oppurtunity to make it to the best-sellers list."

After the initial "the reviewer don't know nuthin' mom and everyone says the book is great" the author will start mulling over whether the book did need further editing. A few will attack the clause in the contract stating that if the book needs substantial editing PA will provide it. Armed with a few reviews from respected Book reviewers saying the book needs editing, an author would have a good chance against PA in an Arbitration board hearing or court case. If I had a book stuck with PA I would cajole every book reviewer I could into sending me a review, either good or bad.

Since PA's version of editing is spellcheck/grammarcheck, and the author has the original manuscript with a lack of any changes other than spelling/grammar mistakes in the editing. If athey can get a few reviews from respected independant reviewers saying the book needed more editing, then they would have a good chance for a breech of contract against PA.

[RejectME]

Okay, I just read that whole thread and really can't believe these people are so brainwashed. Even when bragging about the second rate papers that supposedly reviewed PA books, the PA guys was rude. I feel genuinely bad for all those folks and wish that place could be shut down for ruining people's dreams with lies.

Jerry :shrug

[NancyMehl]

Just a note of interest:

I write book reviews for a large Midwestern newspaper. (Knight-Ridder) My reviews focus on authors who either live in the state or spent a significant amount of time in our state. My editor, who didn't know hardly anything about POD, HAD HEARD OF PA!!!!! He was concerned about reviewing PA books because he heard they were poorly written. (That's just the kind of reputation you want to develop!!!)

I regularly receive PA books for review. I do review those that are halfway decent BECAUSE my focus is on local authors. I'm not reviewing best selling authors. My Senior Editor stepped in and told my direct editor that she would allow me to review self-published and POD books because she wants the focus to be on the authors - not the mode of publishing. My main point is, however, that my editor knew about PA. Amazing.

If I wanted to be a real jerk, I could refuse to review PA books after the way PA treated me. I won't, because I don't want to hurt the authors, and I have something called "ethics," a word that doesn't seem to appear in the dictionaries of PA staff and management. There are a couple of books I couldn't review because they were just poorly written, but so far, the others haven't been too bad.

By in large, the largest number of books that come in, except from publishers I work directly with, are from PA.

Nancy

[Gravity]

test

[Gravity]

Okay, just wanted to make sure I was logged in correctly. I want to publicly thank Nancy Mehl for agreeing to review my PA novel, Sock Monkey Blues, back in 2002. Now I know exactly what a gutsy move it was, on her part. She also did a review for the sequel, Until the Last Dog Dies (thankfully, done with a traditional publisher; I'm living proof that one CAN move on past PA). Thanks, Nance.

John

[NancyMehl]

You're welcome. It's not hard to read and review your books. Top notch.

I'm so thrilled to see someone break away from PA and land a super deal from a traditional house. I understand that "Dog" is in its second printing. I predict several more.

So...you can overcome PA. It happens.

Nancy

[DaveKuzminski]

Here's another posting about PA's upcoming "partnership" with the NYT:

Poett and Puss



7/24/2004
08:43:19
Subject: PA and the New York Times


Message:
THIS is a very interesting development and I wish that PA could tell us more, but I assume the there are aspects of this that are still being negotiated.

I do think (and hope!) that PA is doing the best it can with the interests of it's already established authors in mind.

I, for one, look forward to the possibility of our authors being included in the NY Times bestseller lists!

BTW, I like the new look for the author message board!

Karl Stuart Kline
Poett & Puss >^.\/.^<
author, POISON PEARLS
*************************

Now I know that not every bestseller is a bestseller when it hits the list. However, I don't know of a single PA book yet that even approaches making the list.

Even though one author in an article has claimed that authors and their representatives have been known to purchase their own books to kickstart a book onto a bestseller list, I don't believe any of PA's authors can afford to do that. Also, I'm willing to bet that if the NYT found out, they'd remove the book quite quickly before their own reputation is harmed.

I've also noticed in the PA topics concerning the NYT that some authors have changed partnership to merger. This announcement by PA to their authors is all the more amazing since I can't think of any reason why the NYT would even be interested in PA other than as an expose. In fact, I won't be surprised if PA later announces that they turned down the NYT proposal because it didn't further the goals of the PA authors. After all, they do everything for their authors, right?

[HapiSofi]

No PublishAmerica title will ever appear on a legit bestseller list. This isn't a matter of prejudice; it's because it's physically impossible. PA can't keep up with the trickle of orders it already gets. No way can it print, bind, and ship bestseller numbers at bestseller speed.

[DaveKuzminski]

Here, with Mr. Riggs' permission, is his reply from shortly after I pointed out the PA discussion concerning him and provided the URL so he could read what PA authors were stating about him:

Hi, Dave,
Many thanks for the heads-up! And thanks, also, for your own site, which I visited out of curiosity (wondering what your motives were in contacting me). I clicked on PublishAmerica in your list, and read some of the discussion _ which confirms my impressions of the outfit.

When I became books editor at the Providence Journal, I instituted a monthly column devoted to local authors or books of local interest _ a paragraph or two on each book. Each has to meet these criteria: 1. It must be published by a recognized publisher (not subsidized or self-published), 2. It must be readily available in local bookstores, 3. It must not promote a product or service resulting in financial gain for the author.

I was wavering as to PublishAmerica, after several of its authors contacted me independently and assured me it was a legitimate publisher, not a vanity press, and that their books either were or could be placed in local stores. Thanks to you, I'm going to stick to my guns.

I'm going to try responding to the attacks, but I gather from some of the comments on your site that I'll be blocked. Perhaps you'd be kind enough to add this note to your voluminous file _ along with a few of those at the PublishAmerica site that mention me by name.

Again, thanks for your vigilance. It's good to know you're out there, patrolling the seamier fringes of what remains, despite the growing corruption of the marketplace, a noble calling.

Doug Riggs

[FM St George]

oh, my.

wonder if the PAvidians are going to ever see this...

[DaveKuzminski]

Looks like the PAvidians will have a tougher row to hoe real soon. PA is erecting a pixel curtain on a new bulletin board so that the outside can't view what they state in their topics.

They'll probably claim it's to prevent trolls, but we all know that only their password-holding authors can post there to begin with. Nope, this is only the beginning of the end for PA's board as it is now known. In the future, the visible board, should it remain on their site, might be nothing more than the equivalent of e-Pravda and contain only those topics from the hidden board that PA approves of for public consumption so that only their "happy authors" will be seen and heard.

Let's hear a round of applause for the comrades running PublishAmerika.

[FM St George]

wonder if ALL the PA authors will be allowed to post or just the ones they "approve" of...

already put in my request - we'll see how "equal" all the PA authors are...

[rlfulgham]

I didn't have time to read this entire line. I did read the first pages about sending PublishAmerica literature which is deliberately awful to see if it would automatically be accepted. This is unfair to PublishAmerica, in my opinion.
Just for the record, I sent them a manuscript which was one of my best. PublishAmerica produced a professionally done book for me and that's all I asked or expected of them. I made some bad jokes about some of the other authors there, which I much regret and admit was inappropriate.
This is why I must register my "no" vote to the idea of hoaxing PublishAmerica. I know from experience that hoaxing often comes back on the hoaxer. I have no beef with PublishAmerica -- they kept their end of the bargain and I knew before hand they would not promote the book, nor would it be displayed or reviewed in conventional ways.
I understand why so many authors are disappointed and have complained. But had they done their research, as I did, they would not be disappointed -- as I am not. I expected from the begining to sell or give away between 100 to 200 copies -- and most of those to carefully selected friends and family. And I must say, it impressed the heck out of mother-in-law.)

[DaveKuzminski]

Of course, all it takes is just one insider willing to do a copy and paste to another board or by email to negate all of PA's efforts at pacifying their writers into thinking that PA represents the publishing world.

[James D Macdonald]

If the PA board no longer serves as an advertising point, luring in new and unsuspecting authors, that's a good thing, and counts as a victory.

So chalk up another one for the good guys.

[DaveKuzminski]

No, I think they'll eventually cut off posts to the current board so that their authors have to post in private so PA can select what they want the public to see using copy and paste. It's the most likely scenario based upon PA's past behavior.

[James D Macdonald]

There are no secrets on the 'net. We'll hear what's going on in there, never fear.

[AnneMarble]

I didn't have time to read this entire line. I did read the first pages about sending PublishAmerica literature which is deliberately awful to see if it would automatically be accepted. This is unfair to PublishAmerica, in my opinion.

To me, this is much like what some investigative journalists do when they send someone undercover to a suspicious business to find out if they are scammed. Should reporters not send people undercover to find out if that modeling agency will scam them? I know some people with this sort of thing and see it as entrapment. Well :p

Look at the number of poems sent to Poetry.com to prove they are scammers. I had a writing class compose one through a random process. (The poem was put on their cite under the name of Enna Marmastan or something like that.) I'll bet the people in that class will remember that they should never send their poems to Poetry.com. :D

[rlfulgham]

I'm a retired reporter and I agree with you. However, if PublishAmerica is fairly or unfairly "exposed" as an author mill, the news might appear on 60 minutes or other expose program. Whether or not the publisher deserves it is not the question to me. Hundreds of fine writers will be unjustly ruined if their publishing company is publically humiliated. Besides, I really believe PublishAmerica has its place. It allows thousands of otherwise unpublishable authors to save face without fooling anyone actually in the business. It doesn't hurt me, for example, if the five year old down the street "publishes" a book of scribbles under the imprint PublishAmerica. I've proven myself on traditional presses and that's what matters -- in fact, it matters more than profits or sales. Robert Frost sold only a few hundred of his first book -- published in England -- though it was highly praised in the rarified heights of modern poetry (Ezra Pound, Alfred Noyes, Wilfred Owen, Edward Thomas, et al.). I think it sold less than 4000 copies during its first four or five years in the USA. Would it hurt Robert Frost's reputation if a PublishAmerica author got to publish his or her poetry? And what difference does it make if PublishAmerica creates its own inhouse literary world?

Perhaps I am "foolish" to stick by the old ideal that sales and profits are not the measure of success. Some of us still strive for an inexpressable understanding and beauty in literature that is beyond commercialism. So, why not let PublishAmerica alone? At least they give poets a chance to see their work in published form, for just one example. You who believe money is the measure of all things can keep hounding the big presses -- even if it means never seeing your work in covers or waiting till you're too old to care. I believe PublishAmerica is doing this nation a service which we badly need: a truly democratic press, where nothing is promoted and the cream can rise to the surface without Big Money being the deciding factor. And don't give me the argument that PublishAmerica is taking advantage of its authors, they're rude, they lied, they won't let you out of the contract, etc. This nation right now is based on the "morality" of "sell something for more than it is worth". So don't blame PublishAmerica for embodying the sick ideals YOU believe in! At least they give a little hope to otherwise hopeless American writers and poets. That little bit of hope, in my modest opinion, is worth more than the hope of making a million dollars in America by bilking your fellow Americans. Don't throw rocks at PublishAmerica if your goal is to make money and you feel cheated. This is America and cheating is the name of the game if you worship money.

[Sher2]

<It allows thousands of otherwise unpublishable authors to save face without fooling anyone actually in the business. It doesn't hurt me, for example, if the five year old down the street "publishes" a book of scribbles under the imprint PublishAmerica. I've proven myself on traditional presses and that's what matters -- in fact, it matters more than profits or sales. Robert Frost sold only a few hundred of his first book -- published in England -- though it was highly praised in the rarified heights of modern poetry (Ezra Pound, Alfred Noyes, Wilfred Owen, Edward Thomas, et al.). I think it sold less than 4000 copies during its first four or five years in the USA. Would it hurt Robert Frost's reputation if a PublishAmerica author got to publish his or her poetry? And what difference does it make if PublishAmerica creates its own inhouse literary world?>


With all due respect for your own situation and opinions, I do indeed feel aggrieved by PA. I relied on their Web site information and signed with them believing that they were a traditional, non-POD publisher and that my book would, in fact, be distributed to mainstream booksellers. I had no big dollar signs in my eyes, I assure you. I did, however, expect to participate in a publishing/promotional experience I could be proud of. Instead, I find that the PA label on my book ensures that the only copies that will ever be sold will be those I sell myself and that this association detracts from rather than enhances my credibility as an author. Why on earth would I have sacrificed my book to an "in-house literary world" only?! That was NOT my intention. If my book was unpublishable, no contract should ever have been offered. I never intended for it to be lumped in with the unpublishable.

[DaveKuzminski]

rlfulgham, let's get the history right on this. P&E was one of the first to publicly disapprove of PA when it posted a simple statement regarding PA and its initial contract. Since then, PA has only marginally improved its contract so that it could counter claim that we and other critics were wrong in nay saying it. However, putting makeup on one pimple to make it more appealing does not address the problem that their contract is still ugly. You can also ask what does that have to do with publishing the dreams of so many writers since they're still getting published?

That's simple to answer. We want those writers to know the truth before they invest their dreams with PA. It would be entirely different if PA was honest about what they truly offer, but they're not. At least a number of vanity publishers actually point out that they do not offer distribution and marketing. Those that do, at least perform what they claim even if it's limited in scope. PA, instead, relies upon cheesy wording that stretches the limits of what would be legal by implying one thing without actually meaning what was stated.

As to my sick ideals, I think I'll stick with them since they're embodied in the Constitution and its Amendments. I honestly believe that we're all created equal. I believe we should all be treated equally. That means the same opportunities. Ah, there it is! That's what you're claiming PA offers. Opportunity. Well, it's not opportunity if your book is thrown in a corner after a few copies are sold to you and your family and closest friends when you're looking for the chance to stand your book up against the best in competition for readers. That's what many of the PA authors are looking for and they're being taken advantage of by PA. Their stories are composed of hope and truths to share with others, but they can't share that with the readers PA led them to believe they could reach. They don't want to sell their books only to family and other authors. They want to reach readers who they can inspire. So, yeah, I have sick ideals. Guess what? I'm proud of them. And no, I won't blame PA for those since they're incapable of embodying my ideals in the slightest.

[Andrew Spriggs]

I've already been there, done that on the Writers Net forums, but I'll still post this.

I still don't see what is democratic about it. If PA is democratic, then that makes me want to be communistic (this is sad!)

Democracy allows its citizens an equal opportunity to make it in the world, by giving them more freedoms and knowledge.

PublishAmerica lies to its authors (or deceives them in other ways), by making disadvantageous 'no-returns' policies and offering a poor contract. The cream has no opportunity to rise to the top because of PA's reputation to not edit books properly, and some even go as far as say that PA will ACCEPT anything. I know this isn't true, but the principle sticks.

To say that PA is an 'all-American' press insults America, and the freedom that it stands for. These authors that you claim are 'unpublishable' until they meet PA--if they truly are unpublishable, then they don't really deserve to get published at all.

Instead, they should work on making their manuscripts better--an AMERICAN concept. The American ideal is that people who do more, work harder, are better qualified, get the job, and they who can't make the cut fail, or fall to the wayside.

America is free, and freedoms that we have include, but are not limited to FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

PublishAmerica bans users who have opinions contrary to their ideals, and will delete posts that are contrary to their ideals--that is classical of many fascist, communist, and totalitarian police states, but not (yet) America.

You don't need 'hope' to reach the top--tis a fool's idealism. Realism tells us that 'work' and 'knowledge', of whatever kind they may be, gets people to the top. However, for those that don't have these, America offers a break--so that those people can get back on their feet, and manage to GET these things.

PA does offer writers a service, to get their book published and out into 'somewhere'. However, the traditional publishers do EXACTLY the same, but they force the authors to make their works up to snuff (something, that those authors will need in the future to succeed in the field), they get the books out into more 'somewheres' (not just a warehouse in Pennsylvania), and they do it all without the shady business practices.

Please, don't listen to my post if it offends you too much, but then, don't go without knowing something resembling the ACTUAL SITUATION. It may not be that bad--James MacDonald, Victoria Strauss, Dave Kuzminski, and ALL THE OTHER PROFESSIONALS IN THEIR FIELDS may be hallucinating. But, just take notice of their words.

[rlfulgham]

money money money -- you guys have no heart.

[James D Macdonald]

R. L., since money doesn't impress you (though it ought to -- the question is whether money is coming out of or going into writers' pockets), how about this:

Readers, readers, readers.

PA is an almost-guaranteed way of making sure you get no readers outside of your immediate circle of family and friends.

Look, guy, it's a vanity operation, same as Dorrance or Vantage. Dorrance and Vantage don't take every book that's submitted to them, either.

Self-publishing is like learning to swim by jumping into the deep end of the swimming pool. Publishing with PA is like jumping into the deep end of the swimming pool with an anchor strapped to your leg.

That's measured purely by readers.

You want democratic? Everyone with the postage has the same chance at getting traditionally published, provided they've written a good book (for some value of good).

If you can't convince the traditional publishers (right the way through some very specialized small presses) that you've written a good book, you can look in the Yellow Pages and find a short-run printer. That's democratic.

Why is a short-run printer better than PA?

Because with short-run printing you'll be able to get at least as good, if not better, bookstore distribution than with PA, and a better chance at getting readers (this gets back to the money question again, but there's no getting around it -- when strangers are thinking about buying a book, price is a factor), and the lack of the PA stigma. You are judged by the company you keep. "Birds of a feather..." you know?

You want readers? Avoid PublishAmerica.

[DaveKuzminski]

rlfulgham, where did I say money? I pointed out the truth as to what many PA authors seek to do. In fact, PA claims to be a publisher of inspirational books. That drew many of its authors to it.

Whether you want to admit it or not, an inspirational book does little to no good if it can find the readers who most need it as many of the PA authors are targeting. They believed they'd found a publisher who believed in them and the stories, many true life stories, they had to share so they could inspire others facing the same long odds of a broken home, or loss of faith, or serious medical condition. When they complained about the price of the books, it wasn't because they wanted to become millionaires. It was because they knew it was too high for the market they were targeting because they were trying to reach people just like them with not enough money and little hope.

Now we know there are also some writers who thought they had the next million seller. However, they've been told by PA that's only possible if they work their butts off to create a market. Unfortunately, individual authors simply don't have the resources. That's part of why book companies came about. They provide the capital and expertise in dealing with matters beyond writing the book. They've been let down by PA as well because PA isn't doing any of that. It claims it is, but we know that's not true.

You know it, too. You stated as much in your earlier posting. However, time and time again, we've read their words that they were misled by the hype that PA puts forth on their site. You weren't because you have more experience in publishing since you claim to have been a reporter. I would hope that did give you a little bit of experience since not every reporter actually knows all the steps involved in publishing. However, I suspect that the ones who do eventually become senior editors and the ones who don't either remain reporters or find other lines of work. But what's more important is that those other writers don't have your experience. They don't understand many of the terms. They can't afford legal advice and most can't find the proper kind of legal advice even if they can afford it.

Yes, there's a need for publishers that will give ordinary folks a chance to be published. However, it's got to be handled in an ethical, honest, and open manner. That is something that PA simply does not do.

And guess what? You should be ashamed of excusing PA's behavior toward them based upon how much you know. Put yourself completely in their shoes before you decide whether PA is right or wrong.

I have no heart? Who are you to talk, Scarecrow?

[Sher2]

<money money money -- you guys have no heart.>

Tsk, tsk, tsk, Mr. Fulgham. Why are you so hung up on the money angle? It's not about the money. It's about the LIES.

An entity should tell its potential customers (or, in this case, marks) up front what it is and what it is not, not masquerade as something else. A lot of people, myself included, took the information plastered all over PA's Web site at face value and didn't think to question it 'til it was too late. If PA wants to make money by selling woefully overpriced books almost exclusively to its own writers and their friends and family, that's fine. But TELL the potential writer that's what they're doing. How hard is that? I certainly didn't submit my book towards the goal of going into debt to buy a truckload of them MYSELF. I fully expected OTHER PEOPLE to buy them. I don't intend to buy a single copy if the dang thing ever actually gets produced. Comprende?

[vstrauss]

>>I believe PublishAmerica is doing this nation a service which we badly need: a truly democratic press<<

Publishing--real publishing--is not about democracy. It's a meritocracy. That's the whole point.

- Victoria

[CWGranny]

Certainly PA has no heart. It is heartless to rob a book and its writer of virtually all possible readers. It is particularly heartless to do it when the writer created the book thinking it would serve those whose hands it reached -- but being with PA virtually promises it will reach no hands. Unless the author is wealthy. It is heartless to take money -- vast amounts of it -- from writers with little enough of it, telling them that if they "believe in their book" they'll invest in the belief, sometimes in the thousands as they buy books with slim hope of recouping their losses. It's heartless to convince these folks that every new writer has to beg bookstores for shelf space, every new writer can't hope to sell outside of his hometown, every new writer began by selling books at a loss out of his trunk. How heartless.

Sure, *many* if not most of the PA authors would not have *sold* the book that they sacrified to PA. They would have had to either realize their shortcomings and learn and grow and become authors who could interest a small (or large) traditional publisher -- or they would have had to pay (a fraction of the amount they end up paying PA to prove their "belief"). And ultimately they would have been better off.

I realize America has taken a beating in the eyes of the world in the last years -- but I still hold it in pretty high regard and I find it offensive to have it compared with dreamkillers and cheats. If someone stole my purse, would chastise me for being indignant -- telling me that you're heartless for being so focused on the money and not accepting the democracy of purse snatching? There is a lot more of value to me in my purse than money. And the writers who are taken in by PA have lost more than money as well.

If all you see in the problems with PA is money -- it is not we who are heartless.

gran

[DeePower]

It's about the money I won't earn from royalties because our PublishAmerica book won't be in bookstores because of PublishAmerica's no return policy which they didn't tell us about. Bookstores won’t stock PA books.

It's about the money I won't earn from sales on amazon.com because PA refuses to offer the standard discount to amazon.com.

It's about the sales lost to libraries because PA does not obtain a Library of Congress catalog description. Libraries don't order books without that description.

It's about our money totally wasted for a PR firm to develop a publicity program. To be effective a PR program has to be developed and implemented 3 to 6 months prepublication.

It's about money wasted on bookmarks for a booksinging event when the book signing was cancelled when the bookstore found out PublishAmerica was the publisher, and the bookstore could not order the books through their system.

It's about the sales we won't get because newspapers refused to review our book solely because it's a PA book, and PA said their books get reviewed. Booklist asked us to have our publisher send a galley copy to them when I showed them a review written about our book by a university librarian.

It's about the marketing our book didn't get and PA implied it would.

It's about the money we have to pay a law firm to terminate our contract with PublishAmerica because they are not a traditional publishing firm as they said they were. And they do not provide the services that a traditional publisher provides.

I could go on but I think you get my point.

And if I was taken in by PublishAmerica think of all the authors who have never been published that were taken in.

I make a living being a writer, so - yeah - the money is important.

Dee Power
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[Savannah Blue]

>>These authors that you claim are 'unpublishable' until they meet PA--if they truly are unpublishable, then they don't really deserve to get published at all.<<

My feelings exactly. If my book was not up to par, I feel I never should have been offered a contract, much less go through the complete process and have the work out in the public to be held up to ridicule. I didn't submit my work for publication, a work that came straight from the heart, only to have it made fun of and laughed at. If it was a good story and in need of work, I was under the impression that an editor would be assigned to me and together we would work on the weak parts, making it be the best it possibly could be. Now, I find my work is going out there as is. Thankfully, I had someone who was willing to help with the bigger problems, and I was fortunate enough to have a reasonable editor, if she can be seriously called that, and the worst of the mistakes were cleared up. At least they were in the final proofs I received. We'll wait to see how the author copies turn out.

The thing that bothers me the most is, I wrote the book to the best of my limited ability. If it wasn't good enough, if it was full of problems, I should have been told that up front. Not have it used as a money making scam by rude, heartless people.

The PA website is misleading and PA as a company preys on vulnerable people.:shrug

SB

[rlfulgham]

Dear Dave, James and Granny and the rest who responded to my defense of PA on grounds that it enables everyong to have a chance. I read each of your responses very carefully. I read them twice. I know in the marrow of my bones that you are right. I hope you understand, however, that I remember too many unpublished writers in my past who never had a chance -- I remember too many sitting on bar stools, sick and tired of living because they never published a book. I to stick up for these wretched writers who failed and failed and failed.
I have angered many people here. The awful truth is I am just like you guys -- I want desperately to get a book published by one of the Big Five, to be respected, and yes to make lots of money. Still. somewhere inside, remains the imperative to stick up for the wretched people I have known and lived among -- and whom I left behind because I was persistant and learned from my mistakes and finally published - not vanity, not POD. Now my old friends despise me, and that's not self pity - it's a fact. I just want to somehow speak in their behalf, and for a golden moment I saw myself as a type of Christ defending the meek who, but for PA, would never publish anything or make a dime or win any respect as writers. But inside I know I am exactly the same as you, Dave and James and Granny and you others whom I know less. I won't argue anymore, nor will I defend the real "money worshippers", and we all know whom they are in this forum. I only get mad about money because I make so little of it! So, I drop out of the discussion here because I accused you of being like me -- an ambitious writer whose goal is Random House! I like you Dave and James and Granny -- just overlook my diatribes when they're obviously written with unspoken motives. Oh, Dee, I guess I shouldn't leave your name out. What angered me about you was that you're right -- and I can't stand it when someone beside me is right. :smack

[Sher2]

<It's about the money I won't earn from royalties because our PublishAmerica book won't be in bookstores because of PublishAmerica's no return policy which they didn't tell us about. Bookstores won’t stock PA books.>

:smack Exactly! I certainly didn't expect to get rich quick, or even over the long-term, but I believe there's a market for my book and it would have sold a respectable number of copies had it been offered to the public the traditional way -- good old-fashioned bookstores.

Nowhere on PA's site was I informed of the no-returns policy or the fact that it would never show up on bookstore shelves, not to mention library shelves. Those very pertinent details weren't enumerated anywhere in my contract, either.

Do I feel duped? You bet!

[KW]

To me it's not about the money, never was. I knew my book wouldn't make me millions, wouldn't make me the new Stephen King, but I was led to believe PA was a small traditional publisher. Everything that everyone has already posted I have been through with PA so I won't restate them.

It's not the money issue I'm mad at, it is the misrepresentation and their intent to defraud new authors who don't know this biz and desperatley want a book published. They prey on us. They lie on their home page, message board and through AST. They stifle any questions regarding anything that does not promote their beliefs and ban the author from the board. Their facts and figures page is set up to swindle people and to me that is clear intent to defraud authors.

So, money is not an issue. Being lied to, taken advantage of, and belittled is.

Kevin

[HConn]

Richard, your first post here was a complaint that people had sullied your name because they read a sarcastic post as a serious one.

And now you post this dramatic mea culpa. Color me suspicious.

I would like to respond to something in your post, though:
I want desperately to get a book published by one of the Big Five, to be respected, and yes to make lots of money.

Seems to me that you're skipping something here. What I want is readers. Those other things are either a means to that wonderful reader-ends or they are an indication that I'm getting read.

And I'm not talking about pressing my books into the hands of my family, who may be taking the price of the book out of their Thanksgiving budget (as in--to keep the peace during). And I don't want readers who paid for the book because they wanted me to get out of their cubicle.

I want readers who seek out the book on their own merits. A big publisher, with a big publisher's access to bookstores, good reputation and large print runs will help me with that. I want those readers to lend the books to their friends (or even better, buy them as gifts for their friends). The money would be an indication that I was reaching them.

I want my books to touch people (hopefully, on the swimsuit area). If what I wanted was money, I sure as hell wouldn't be a writer. If what I wanted was respect, I wouldn't be writing fantasy.

Don't forget the readers, Richard.



Good luck, and hope you weren't being sarcastic.

edited because I can't seem to get anyone's name right this week. Sorry, Richard.

[James D Macdonald]

Ah, but PublishAmerica does tell its marks that their books are non-returnable (not that many in its target audience will understand what that means):

<blockquote>Because they took full advantage of the latest printing technology before anybody else did, the company can afford to sell all copies of a book on a non-returnable basis. Consequently, no book is ever wasted now that each copy can be printed in accordance with real demand.</blockquote>

That's buried in the next-to-last paragraph of this page: <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/aboutus.htm" target="_new">www.publishamerica.com/aboutus.htm</a>

That's the "About Us" page, and it's near the bottom where you have to scroll down to see it, after a whole lot of eye-glazing promospeak, and it's phrased as if being non-returnable is a good thing, but it's there.

"Our Books Are Non-Returnable!" should be on the top of the front page, in flashing red boldface, with a skull-and-crossbones on either side. But it isn't.

[James D Macdonald]

I hope you understand, however, that I remember too many unpublished writers in my past who never had a chance -- I remember too many sitting on bar stools, sick and tired of living because they never published a book.

The assumption you're making here, R. L., is that PublishAmerica gives them a chance.

First of all, what are these folks really after? I don't suppose that it'll help 'em if I said that there are worse things that can happen to an author than not being published. Being published badly is one of those things, and being published by PublishAmerica is, by almost any standard, being published badly. But what are they really after? It's to have someone other than Mom think that their book is okay, that it has some merit. An editor says "We'll publish you."

PublishAmerica seems to give that stamp of approval. But its a cheap one -- we know that PublishAmerica publishes some astounding garbage, that their selection process is very loose. Sure, they'll publish a good book as fast as they'll publish a bad one, but really... try this experiment. Go over to Google then search on "PublishAmerica" and "sample chapter" to see the things that folks have on their own web pages.

So, how does it harm those folks to have this apparent seal of approval?

How about the feeling they get when they can't get their book into bookstores? How about the feeling they get when they have a basement full of books they can't sell? How about the feeling they get when their book won't be reviewed? The feeling they get when the library won't even take it as a gift? How about the feeling they get when the awful truth sinks in?

Presumably they have other jobs than writing -- their time is limited. How about the time they spend running around arranging signings and other promotions, that they should spend writing a new, better, different book, honing their craft?

Look, dude, I don't know what you mean by "the Big Five," but if you mean "traditionally published by a major New York publisher," I'm there. This is how I make my living.

Do those folks on the bar stools want to know the secret to getting published? This is it: Don't spend ten years of your life trying to market a fatally-flawed first novel. Put that first book in your desk drawer and write a better one. And for heaven's sake, get off the bar stool. Unless you have your typewriter in front of you, you aren't where you belong.

[SRHowen]

in the garage--

I don't know if there is a magic number of books you have to write first to hone and learn the craft, someone said a million words of crap--I'll agree with that.

And every writer who has made it past the gate knows that their first book was indeed crap.

But what about that first book? WOW, I sure thought mine was great, I wanted others to read it and tell me it was great. My mom read it and "loved" it. So did others, friends, relatives etc. But once that circle of readers is gone, then what? That's when reality sets in and you, the writer, realize that you have a lot to learn yet.

PA never gives a writer the chance to learn that. They hit the writer at that first book stage, and give them what they want--the big YEAH, great job, that first books make you think you are going to get. The dream is fed. But in reality, the dream is killed--those writers who could have gone on to write great novels may never have the chance, because they never had the chance to be shot down (and I bet many who realize what PA is do not go on) and realize they have to grow and develop their talent and skills.

Shawn

[rlfulgham]

The guy who said it's about readers was correct 100%. That was implied in my mea culpa :thumbs Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, this poster mare than any of the rest of us got it right: it's about readers. Get them and you get the others, including literary self-actualization, in my opinion.

[James D Macdonald]

So why boost PublishAmerica, a company which almost guarantees you you'll get no readers?

[DeePower]

It was nonfiction. I emailed the publisher and gave them a brief one page description of the book we wanted to write and our background. The next day the editor emailed back and asked for a writing sample. I emailed one. Day after that he called and asked for a book proposal. I said I didn't know what was included in a book proposal. He told me and said could I please have it to him by Monday, this was Friday. We got together a six page book proposal and emailed it out Monday (no sample chapter). He called on Tuesday and asked for a few additions.

Within two weeks from the first email we had a book contract with a 5 figure advance.

The book is "Inside Secrets To Venture Capital."

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[rlfulgham]

James, this is because you asked me why I boost PA when I simultaneously agree with HConn that "its about the readers". I've changed my mind about PA and withdrawn my support. Here's what I posted at WN, which I hope will be the last time I discuss this particular can of worms in public.

"I just enjoyed a great debate at another writing forum. I initially argued that author mills have their place because they enable everyone to see themselves in print regardless of ability. There are no 'losers'. All previsouly unpublished writers can feel good about themselves and call themselves authors.

"I retract that argument here. I changed my initial viewpoint because my peers 'wised me up'.

"It's the classic Shakespearian truism: be true to yourself. Take the easiest path to getting your words between covers if you just want to fool yourself. If you want respect from your peers -- if you want recognition as an author -- if you want readers -- then you must do it the hard way.

"It's like in those schools where all students get the same award, no matter which student really deserved it. "Everyone is Valedictorian this year!"

"That isn't winning an award. That's bringing everyone down to the lowest level. It's saying 'The best is no better than the worst'. My respects to Mr. Kuzminski and Mr. MacDonald."

In simpler words, I'm not defending PA's deliberate deception of writers anymore. This is not a sarcastic mea culpa on my part -- it'a sincere mea culpa. :thumbs

[SRHowen]

OK, non-fiction I will say falls outside the million words of crap idea. And there are always exceptions. LOL

Shawn

[DeePower]

Go to and start scrolling until you come to a Mr. Book

The cadence and language sound very familiar. Who do you think it is?

www.mindsightseries.com/d...1091826527 (http://www.mindsightseries.com/discus/messages/3831/4047.html?1091826527)

Dee

www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[Doug La Tant]

Hi this is my first post so if I make any rude mistakes please forgive I am finishing up my first novel and was considering publishing with PA this thread has convinced me that that is complete folly. I just read DeePower's comments on their first book and am impressed I assumed that large publishers would be impossible to reach by a first time novelist and that I would have to self-publish to 'get the ball rolling' since I have read that first novels depend on the author to market them anyway. I'm looking for advice that fits my situation from Dee or anyone in this thread. My novel is a mystery/thriller and I need to know what 'big publishers' would be the best ones to take it to and what is the best way to approach them. Thanks
email address is dlatant@yahoo.com

[James D Macdonald]

Major publishers publish first-time authors all the time. The fact that they put so many books on shelves means that they need a tremendous amount of material. Your chances with a very large publisher are actually better than with a small press.

Now -- when you're playing the game at that level, you have to write a very good book. That's the one and only non-waiverable requirement. Your book has to be good.

[HapiSofi]

Doug, self-publishing with an outfit like PA gets nobody's ball rolling.

"The big five" is one of those phrases that automatically makes me look around to see if I can spot the scammer. It's one of the phrases they use in their rap about how publishing is huge, and you're tiny and powerless, so your only recourse is to sign up with them. There are arguably five big publishing concerns that are responsible for a disproportionate number of the books that wind up in bookstores. It's worth keeping track of them, sort of like keeping track of baseball standings, but what you as an author have to deal with are houses, imprints, lines, and editors.

Here's an example: Tom Doherty Associates is a publishing house. Their imprints include Tor, which is best known for its science fiction line, and Forge, which mostly does mainstream, a.k.a. non-SF. TDA is owned by Von Holtzbrinck, which is the other, nicer originally-German-but-now-global publishing cartel. (That's as opposed to Bertelsmann. Don't worry about that just now.) Von Holtzbrinck also owns Farrar, Straus, St. Martin's Press, Scientific American, and a bunch of other concerns. Since what you've written falls into the mystery/thriller category, you could conceivably sell your work to editors at Forge, or SMP, or Farrar Straus, without moving out from under the Von Holtzbrinck umbrella.

I'm not sure how many houses and lines are subsumed under "the big five" as of this month. The number also varies depending on whether you're counting "owned by" or "distributed by". No matter. Take it from me: however and whenever you count it up, it's a reassuringly large number. Every one of them is a different operation, all of them are looking for The Good Stuff, and if you write it, they want you.

Sure, it's a good idea for authors to give their help and cooperation to the promotion of their first-and-subsequent novels. But claiming that publishers don't market those books, and that what you as a self-published author can do for your book is equivalent to what a real publisher will do for it, is a foul and sophisticated lie.

If I started explaining all the differences, I'd be sitting here typing all afternoon, and I have errands to run. Check out my earlier posts.

Here's the big secret: There is no substitute for writing books that people want to buy and read. If you can do that, you will get published. If not, no vanity-publishing-scheme-of-the-month is going to do you one damned bit of good.

You are the readers' slave. So am I. So are we all.

Here's the good part of that deal: you have a chance. Few things make me so furious as listening to authors going on about how vanity presses have given them a chance. That's exactly what they haven't done. Vanity presses never take a chance on anyone, and they don't give them a chance, either. Conventional publishing is a hard nut to crack. But there, you do have a chance.

[vstrauss]

>>since I have read that first novels depend on the author to market them anyway.<<

I see this statement all the time, and it's very misleading. When a writer published by a commercial publisher (one that makes its profits from selling books to the public, rather than from author fees or purchases) says "I have to do my own marketing", she means it's up to her to do things like setting up book signings, getting interviews, creating a website, going to conferences, making public appearances. When a self- or vanity-published writer says "I have to do my own marketing", she means all that plus distribution. Setting up a signing for yourself is a much different thing if you first have to talk the bookstore into ordering your book. Getting interviewed on a major radio show won't do you much good if interested listeners can't find your book in their local chain store.

Yes, if you're not a well-known author, or a debut author the powers that be have decided to push, a commercial publisher isn't going to spring for a book tour or set up signings for you, and you'll have to "do your own marketing". But the publisher will handle the all-important task of getting your books into stores, where your marketing efforts can actually have an effect.

- Victoria

[DaveKuzminski]

I think some folks have the wrong idea about what will happen inside the new hidden PA forum. This is from the topic at URL www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5347.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5347.htm)


bigliz



8/10/2004
17:08:58
Subject: New messageboard??


Message:
I got my password and all that jazz...
When is it coming?
Where will it be?
What is going on?
Anyone?
:)

-Liz Rohloff
author of Uncle Sim's
www.LizRohloff.com

Joyce Ann

8/10/2004
17:35:50


RE: New messageboard??


Message:
If we knew, we'd tell you.

Joyce Ann Edmondson
"The Listening Tree"
"Falling Petals"
thelisteningtree.net (http://thelisteningtree.net)
publishedauthors.net/edmondson (http://publishedauthors.net/edmondson)


Lori Ann

8/10/2004
17:36:23


RE: New messageboard??


Message:
Hi Liz!
No news yet...I'm really looking forward to it though. It will be nice to be able to chat freely without worrying about posts getting pulled!
Lori

[DaveKuzminski]

This is absurd! Read it for yourself at URL www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5337.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5337.htm)

PatsyWoodSmith



8/10/2004
08:09:45
Subject: touchy situation


Message:
What do you do if you're asked to do a review, read the book, and find that it is not a good one? I teach elementary school, and the book I reviewed contained many "no-no's", including tense changes within paragraphs, subject changes, all sorts of things. I don't want to post my name to a positive review of a book I wouldn't use in my classroom. Suggestions?

daknut

8/10/2004
08:30:54


RE: touchy situation


Message:
Be constructive in your criticism of it. Dfinitely contact the author *first* to discuss it with them and say what you're about to print out as a review. At least he'll know what's about to be written.

Lee

whitewolfzty

8/10/2004
09:02:56
RE: touchy situation


Message:
Patsy,
Personally, I would prefer knowing what the problems are and what need to be corrected. That is all anyone can ask, to have an honest review.
Tell me, I can take it.
KenC.
Dying to Believe


DJ

8/10/2004
11:50:42


RE: touchy situation


Message:
Patsy,
Contact the author by email give them the review. I want people to be honest with me about my writing as I think most of us do. I hope this helps

Donna

bikrpreacher

8/10/2004
12:29:39
RE: touchy situation


Message:
Yep, tell them what you think, wouldn't worry too much about the review though, I doubt they will use it...but since you were asked, just be honest and tell them what you found, and what you would think of the story if the mistakes WERE NOT THERE. They can always work on the grammar and other mistakes, but to them the very important thing will be, is the story good...or not.

chris Bartholomew
Child of an Alcoholic to Daughter of the King!
Why is your hand in my pocket? and other Sermons

rpwilliams

8/10/2004
16:32:07


RE: touchy situation


Message:
I say let 'em have it with both barrels.


Joan DeMarle-Obe

8/10/2004
19:52:44


RE: touchy situation


Message:
Writing a review feels like you have a lot of power. To use that power correctly, like anything you write you have to consider what your purpose is. Are you more focused on correcting the work or giving people a taste of what is in the book? You can give people a taste without mentioning the negatives and only mention the positive. Everything has something positive in it. I focus on that when I write a review. I wrote a review of a children's book. The story was creative, the pictures were awful. I never mentioned the picture.

Be realistic about the impact of a review. We are not selling a book everytime someone reads a positive review. If we did we would all be rich. Unless you are the book reviewer for a major newspaper or magazine or a celebrity you don't have that power of persuasion.

It usually takes several good reviews to convince people to buy a book but one negative review does a lot of damage. In my opinion a good review only gives people a taste of what is in there so they can decide for themselves. However, if you do say something negative about someone who you want as a friend, forget the friendship.

There are plenty of books out there that have flaws in them and they get read to children all the time with very little harm done when the positive is focused on. Good can come out of reading a bad book. I've read my children plenty of books that I didn't agree with some of the moral lessons involved and they provide a great opportunity for discussion. If it's the effect of the bad grammar you are concerned about, children are not going to pick up bad grammar habits from one book. Children's grammar comes from a lot of sources.

Joan

kas

8/10/2004
20:22:19


RE: touchy situation


Message:
First of all, was it a good story? What grade do you teach? Could you read a book to the class, rather than have them see the errors? Is there a message in the story for them to learn from.

And above all, tell the author the truth, he could fix the errors if that is your only problem with the book.

Giving a review requires the reviewer to give their honest opinion. I don't do reviews because of that.

[LiamJackson]

Could you read a book to the class, rather than have them see the errors?

I can't help but wonder if the above represents the prevailing attitude with the PA set.

[DaveKuzminski]

This latest one I found tonight (I'm in the mood tonight to look at what's in some of the PA topics even though I don't visit there very often... too depressing) is sure to set a number of PA authors against each other when they find themselves unable to reach the markets that are being offered because of PA. Oh, read it for yourself. It's at URL www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5350.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5350.htm) , but I'm copying some of it here in case they delete it.

darleneg



8/10/2004
19:39:03
Subject: I need some web site info for promotions


Message:
HB, Leo, marti, Lee, Norm, Sooty these are just some that I need please. I am going to help promote your work at all of the huge musical shows that we're doing.
And yes our shows average 5,000 and over as they are the big stages, and to all the other groups that are with us too.
We have some major stars with us this time and i can't wait to get back on that stage again. Singing is a total blast, and the promotions can really do good for all of us.
So if you start getting lots of emails then don't worry just pick those that you want and those that you don't. As I'm going to do one more thing, and that is through my husband's reccord label.
We have a multi million search engine, and I'm going to add your web sites to mine, and send them out world wide. Yee Haw!
Yes I do support those who have stood behind me, and to all of the emails that you will be swampt with LOL! Do like I do and just delete them, as some of them require $$$ don't get in with them as we get all of their search engines for free.

I'll be checking back before we get ready to go so please get your info for me so I can print it off. I can at least pass out your info and then the buying is up to them.
Also my good friend at the Barnes and Noble said that anything that I wanted to sale she would, so I'm going to give her your info too.

All the best
Darlene Grimmett
ANGELS IN THE MIST
publishedauthors.net/darlenegrimmett

SoOTy

8/10/2004
19:56:03


RE: I need some web site info for promotions


Message:

Thanks Darlene, that is really sweet. E-mail me and let me know exactly what info. you require.

Thanks again,

Sooty
loness@allstream.net

Patriot

8/10/2004
21:27:51


RE: I need some web site info for promotions


Message:
Darlene Angel, you are so kind and a real promoter, I ditto Linda. E-mail me and let me know exactly what info you require.

Thank you so much for including me.

Norm

Norman Chenoweth
"The Invisible Patriots"
web.tampabay.rr.com/wnorman (http://web.tampabay.rr.com/wnorman)
wnorman@tampabay.rr.com

[DeePower]

If you have had a book published by PublishAmerica and a newspaper, website or magazine has refused to review it because PublishAmerica was the publisher, please contact me.

Thanks

Dee Power
authors@brianhillanddeepower.com
www.brianhillanddeepower.com (http://www.brianhillanddeepower.com)

[XThe NavigatorX]

Here's a shocker. That one thread where the person was complaining about NYTs refusing their book because it was a POD has vanished. Just yesterday there were some new postings in the thread where people were starting to question why.

[snarzler]

I'm sure it was the author's mistake. *hic*
After all the NYT and PA have a partnership. *hic*
Of COURSE this prestigous paper will review PA's non-POD, well-edited books. *hic*
And while PA is fair and balanced on their website and forum, *hic*
they don't want people mislead, *hic*
so the author removed the thread *hic*
when PA support contacted her *hic*
and corrected the misunderstanding.

can't. take. it. any. more.

:lol :rollin :ha :rofl

Lest anyone think I might actually be serious, let me note that my tongue was planted firmly in my cheek. |I

Andrea :peace

[Sher2]

<when PA support contacted her *hic*
and corrected the misunderstanding.
can't. take. it. any. more.
Lest anyone think I might actually be serious, let me note that my tongue was planted firmly in my cheek.>

I knew that.;)

Listen, when I get the hiccups that bad, I usually have to hold my breath 'til I turn blue. PA has that effect on people. LOL.

[snarzler]

When I'm trying to hold in severe laughter, I get the hiccups.

Personal quirk.

A writer with quirks. Hmm, now there is a novelty. ;)

Uh, tying to this the topic...PA tends to make invalid passwords of authors who post on other boards they consider "inappropriate" as a means of control. :(

Andrea :peace

[Sher2]

<Uh, tying to this the topic...PA tends to make invalid passwords of authors who post on other boards they consider "inappropriate" as a means of control.>

Oh, of course! Unless you swallow the PA gospel hook, line, and sinker, you get banned.:hail I know someone who just got banned today. Badge of honor!

[DaveKuzminski]

Well, I just noticed that the Case Watchers forum is closed again.

[Gravity]

They banned be back in February, for me daring to post that my new, non-PA novel had been signed by a large traditional house. Maybe we could all get a "Backstage Pass/I'm With The Banned" T-shirt.

[DaveKuzminski]

Maybe I should add a teeshirt in the Attack Butterfly Cafepress store with the caption, "Banned by PA in MD"?

[Sher2]

<Well, I just noticed that the Case Watchers forum is closed again.>

Hmmm. Maybe she couldn't take the heat, although I certainly saw nothing controversial today. Then again, maybe orders came down from the Grand Poobah. Sad.

[Sher2]

<They banned be back in February, for me daring to post that my new, non-PA novel had been signed by a large traditional house. Maybe we could all get a "Backstage Pass/I'm With The Banned" T-shirt.>

You're not missing anything, Gravity, but it IS amusing. Love the t-shirt idea. You print 'em, I'll buy one and wear it to the gigantic love-in -- I mean, book signing -- in Waco ... um, I mean, Galveston, in Sept.

[Sher2]

<Maybe I should add a teeshirt in the Attack Butterfly Cafepress store with the caption, "Banned by PA in MD"?>

I'll buy one of yours, too, Dave.

[DaveKuzminski]

Okay, I'll fix up some shirts. Should be available by this weekend.

Do you want the shirts to be any particular color? There are some choices. I can have hats and other goods imprinted with messages, too.

[Sher2]

"Do you want the shirts to be any particular color? There are some choices. I can have hats and other goods imprinted with messages, too.>

I prefer pink myself, with the words spelled out in rhinestones and sequins. For the hats, may I suggest "ExPAtriate"?

[DaveKuzminski]

Pink is possible. Don't believe they have sequins and rhinestones available though.

Oh, I like that one for the hats!

[snarzler]

I volunteer my bedazzler.:nerd

Dave, think my PA royalty check will cover a tee-shirt? :cry :rofl

Andrea :peace

[DaveKuzminski]

Folks, the exPAtriate goods are available at www.cafeshops.com/attackbutterfly (http://www.cafeshops.com/attackbutterfly) for those who are interested. If you want a different style or color teeshirt, let me know and I'll select those for the store as well. If you have a good idea for a logo and want to see it used, email it to me. I'm currently looking for an artist to do a proper "Backstage Pass / I'm with the Banned" logo since my drawing abilities are inadequate.

The goods associated with P&E have no profit attached for P&E. The goods associated with my AtkButterfly pen name have a dime of profit just so I can see some sales reports on occasion so I'll know if the store even sees any customers.

The Backstage Pass - I'm with the Banned logo is now available on the backs of four teeshirts.

[Sher2]

<Well, I just noticed that the Case Watchers forum is closed again. >


Yep. Marti's busy on the PA boards, however:


"Marti2003

8/13/2004
20:24:59

RE: Wow did I get an eyefull at Absolute Write

Message:

Once upon a time, there was a small king with a small crown and a very small kingdom. Everyone in the kingdom was very happy until that fateful day when the king broke his crown. The Queen cried, the king threw a fit and all the people's heads began to bobble..."


Who do you suppose the "small king" is? Which one is the "Queen"? And what's with this bobbling obsession?

[lastr]

The only bobblehead is on her own shoulders - she doesn't even realize what kind of opportunities she threw away. Between turning her nose up at the free banner offer from Dave to allowing real editors and publishers to be treated like dirt and .... I'd better stop now before I emit a decidely unladylike snort of disdain at her foolishness.

Well, I have to admit after re-reading this, my emotions really are on the lines of deep sorrow at her loss of a chance to get the word out about her passion for unsolved crimes where the victims cry for relief.

[James D Macdonald]

Hi, folks. If you're visiting here from the PublishAmerica boards, welcome.

If you have any questions about anything having to do with writing or publishing, you can write to me privately. I promise to give you honest information. If I don't know the answer to a question, I will find out and get back to you.

Please join me up in the Uncle Jim (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=257.topic) topic on the Novels board (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3) here, too.

[lastr]

Your posts underscore the true generosity of spirit that draws me to this board to lurk, learn, and appreciate.

[James D Macdonald]

Yo, Sher -- what's the URL of that thread at PA?

[ncq13]

Thank you Uncle Jim, for your offer. I'm always looking to gain/exchange experience, information, and war stories with fellow writers.
My first novel is in the early stages of publishing (I haven't yet been given my first set of proofs from PA), and I am hard at work on additional projects.
*Rather* than debate any issues regarding PA, or stress about what *may* or *may not* happen, I'm choosing to work on my freelance writing/reviewing career while I complete a fantasy/romance series I have been working on for years.
Between my freelance work, and preparing my first novel for PA, I've noticed a significant maturity emerge in my writing and as I edit my current projects,and I find myself becoming increasing grateful that I held back my series in order to perfect it, rather than submitting my "book one" as a first novel. Not only will it be better than I could have ever dreamed when I first started writing, but I will have time to find the 'right' agent and publisher to bring my dream of landing on bookshelves across the country into reality.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not slamming PA in any way, but I have already recieved some "no's" to signing dates because some stores emphatically refuse to do signings for POD authors. In my estimation, the worst that can happen at this point, is that in seven years, I get to rewrite my novel. The best that can happen is that it actually sells. Fortunately, I have already started to cultivate an audience which I'm certain will help.
Currently, I'm researching some agents and small publishing houses as potential places to submit my series to, and I'm taking my time, enjoying the whole writing/editing process; thanks, in part, to reading the posts here.
What's the rush, right?
~ Kate
katestamour.com (http://katestamour.com)

[Sher2]

<Yo, Sher -- what's the URL of that thread at PA?
Get Edited by Uncle Jim>


Sorry, I've just spent half an hour wading through the boards and I can't find it. The title of the thread was the same as the Re: line (Wow, did I get an eyefull at Absolutewrite). I'm guessing that since it was mentioned here, it's been pulled.

[DaveKuzminski]

Marti should be careful. If she uses too many forbidden words and acronyms, they'll eventually ban her.

For your edification, Marti, if you happen to read this, be careful about mentioning Absolute Write, AW, Writers Net, WN, Preditors & Editors, P&E, Speculations, Rumormill, RM, Making Light, ML, Where Serious Writers Discuss Their Craft!, WSWDTC, SFF Net, Mindsight Series, MS, SFWA, and a bunch of others that I'll probably remember later. Oh, they also don't like seeing my name or those of James Macdonald, Ann Crispin, and Victoria Strauss unless you embellish each with an epithet.

For those who still think PublishAmerica is a good choice, ask yourself this. Why are there so many independent sites opposed to PA's activities? One personal site representing a disgruntled writer is understandable, but most of these sites do not represent any disgruntled PA or former PA writers. Many, however, do permit them to post in their forums. Those sites are mostly sites developed to guide other writers in their writing. However, they've taken a stand because they clearly see that PA's contract and behavior toward writers are poor and unprofessional.

Then ask these questions:

If PA is such a good choice, then why doesn't PA post the sources for all facts and figures that it claims in its own web site?

If PA is such a good choice, why does PA disavow its own website claims in its contract?

Edited to remove some forums that want to remain private.

[James D Macdonald]

I'm guessing that since it was mentioned here, it's been pulled.

I'm guessing that the one thing PA doesn't want their authors to do is come here and "get an eyeful."

Particularly:

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=209.t opic&start=1164&stop=1164" target="_new">PA Contract Clause 9</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=209.t opic&start=1178&stop=1178" target="_new">PA Contract Clauses 22-23</a>

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=209.t opic&start=1188&stop=1188" target="_new">PA Contract Clause 24</a>

Those would open some eyes!

[absolutewrite]

I missed the post, and the whole Casesolvers debacle, and I'm just sitting here with a big freakin' broken heart because I'm so mortified that Marti is letting this agenda get in the way of a very serious and worthwhile cause.

Marti, I'm sure you're reading this-- I don't know you in any way, I don't read the PA boards unless someone here points out an interesting post every now and then, I didn't see your forum, etc.

Here are the things I do know:

There aren't any kings or queens on this forum. I own it, we have some nice moderators, and several very experienced authors and author "watchdogs" who I'm lucky to have hanging around.

Let me be very clear on this: They do NOT want to hurt you or any other PA author. Not one of them is out to "get you." You'll find that the veterans here, almost unanimously, are in agreement that what PA does is unethical, tremendously misleading, and hurtful to its authors in so many ways. I'm angry with PA for all their false promises to authors and angry that they prey on people's dreams.

I'm upset on behalf of ALLLLLL the PA authors who have come to me for help because they figured out a little too late that PA is NOT a traditional publisher in any way, that bookstores won't stock their books, that reviewers won't review them, that they can't even get their own books in time for signings that they set up, that the books are printed with giant errors the authors had corrected, etc.

I'm upset that PA bans its authors from their message boards the instant they question anything PA does, that they don't respond to authors who ask "difficult" questions, that they try to make it sound like all of the traditionally published authors are out to get all of you because we're jealously trying to guard our place on the top of the charts.

I could go into such a long and bulletproof explanation of exactly why that's not so and why the only reason we speak out on this topic is so you CAN compete with us and CAN have a real fighting chance at a writing career... but I'm just exhausted from all this. You're not the first, you won't be the last. All I can do is urge you to do some research-- REAL research, not the hype PA feeds you-- and find true stories from former PA authors who were not "disgruntled," but blatantly lied to and mistreated and put through an emotional wringer.

I have no idea who your anonymous reviewer is, but I feel safe in telling you it's not Dave or James or anyone I recognize from this board. That's just not our "agenda." We're not about trying to hurt authors.

And I wish PAers would stop seeing it as an "Our Tribe vs. Their Tribe" battle. That's exactly how PA sets it up to discount our credibility. Like we all hate you or look down on you and want to see you fail so we can look better in comparison.

But if you'll take a closer look, you'll find that the people I'm assuming you see as "kings and queens" of this board are the ones who respect writers the most. The ones who try their damnedest to keep writers out of trouble and out of heartbreak because they CARE ABOUT THE WRITERS!

We have successful writing careers in no danger of disappearing. So why are we here on this board? For the sole purpose of helping newer writers reach our ranks. Crazy, huh? Even when some of those writers have gleefully joined in in bashing us and trying to discredit us because we don't see PA as the revolutionary wonder of the publishing world.

I have no problem with the vanity POD companies that are honest with writers. And I have no problem with authors who need, deep in their hearts, to believe that someone believed in them and took a chance on them-- which makes them feel loyal to PA. What I have a problem with is purposeful ignorance. Choosing to believe that every successful writer and editor in the world is part of some grand conspiracy to keep you down because you're revolutionaries. It just ain't true. Your publisher twists things until they're unrecognizable.

...I could go on all night, but I'll end it here for now. I think the only reason I piped in at all is that I was so emotional after seeing your site... I read the stories, they broke my heart, it all seemed so genuine and altruistic, then I came here to find that you're cooking up publicity schemes based on conspiracy theories, spreading general nastiness, and letting your real message get totally lost in this stupid controversy. That jarred me. Been a while since I opened my mouth publicly on PA... I felt I had said everything I could say a long time ago, but I keep admiring Dave and James and Victoria and others for continuing to beat their heads against their desks and reap abuse for telling authors the truth... over and over and over again.

[Sher2]

<Folks, the exPAtriate goods are available at www.cafeshops.com/attackbutterfly for those who are interested. If you want a different style or color teeshirt, let me know and I'll select those for the store as well. If you have a good idea for a logo and want to see it used, email it to me. I'm currently looking for an artist to do a proper "Backstage Pass / I'm with the Banned" logo since my drawing abilities are inadequate.>


I just ordered my pink tee-shirt, can't wait to get it. The "banned" graphic, by the way, looks terrific. (Thanks, Stephanie!)

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Folks, the exPAtriate goods are available at www.cafeshops.com/attackbutterfly for those who are interested.<hr></blockquote>

What great looking shirts. <img border=0 src="http://www.absolutewrite.com/images/emoteClap.gif" /> If I see someone in my area wearing one, I'll be sure to give them a big ol' hug.

[DaveKuzminski]

By the way, I ordered some goods from my own shop as well. I think it took almost two weeks for Cafepress to process and ship the order, but it all arrived intact. Anyway, I understand that some recent political statements have caused a run on some of the Cafepress stores, so don't be surprised if it takes them a little longer to process orders because of the national election in the US.

[DaveKuzminski]

Okay, here it is. Take a look at what PA doesn't want others to even see:

SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT AND RELEASE

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp This Settlement Agreement and Release (“Agreement” or “Settlement Agreement”) is made this xx Day of xxx, 200x, by and between PublishAmerica, LLLP (“Publisher”), and Xxxxx Xxxxx (“Author”) who shall collectively be identified as the “Parties” herein.

RECITALS

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp WHEREAS, Publisher and Author entered into a contract whereby Publisher agreed to publish Author’s book, Xxxx Xxxx Xxxx (the “Work”), according to the month day, year, agreement (“Publishing Contract”).
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp WHEREAS, all parties are desirous of terminating the Publishing Contract.

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1. Mutual General Releases
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp In consideration of the agreements and covenants contained herein, Author, on behalf of himself, his predecessors, successors, assigns, affiliates, heirs, family members, administrators, executors, trustees, directors, officers, employees, partners, attorneys, agents, representatives, and associates hereby fully and forever releases, remises, acquits and discharges Publisher, and their predecessors, successors, assigns, affiliates, heirs, family members, administrators, executors, trustees, directors, officers, employees, partners, attorneys, agents, representatives, and associates from any and all claims, demands, liabilities, actions or causes of action of any kind of character, at law or in equity, whether known or unknown, accrued or not, present or future, in connection with, arising out of or in any way involving the Publishing Contract including any pre-contract and post-contract representations.
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp In consideration of the agreements and covenants contained herein, Publisher, on behalf of themselves, their predecessors, successors, assigns, affiliates, heirs, family members, administrators, executors, trustees, directors, officers, employees, partners, attorneys, agents, representatives, and associates hereby fully and forever releases, remises, acquits and discharges Author and his predecessors, successors, assigns, affiliates, heirs, family members, administrators, executors, trustees, directors, officers, employees, partners, attorneys, agents, representatives, and associates from any and all claims, demands, liabilities, actions or causes of action of any kind of character, at law or in equity, whether known or unknown, accrued or not, present or future, in connection with, arising out of or in any way involving the Publishing Contract including any pre-contract and post-contract representations.

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 2. Transfer of Publication Rights and Release of Publication Obligations.
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp In consideration of the agreements and covenants contained herein, the Publishing Contract is deemed terminated and of no further force or effect. All rights to publish, sell or export, or cause to be published, sold or exported, the Work, including but not limited to print or book publication, motion picture, film, video, television and/or any other electronic or computer video medium are deemed released and revert back to Author. Publisher is deemed released from all their obligations under the Publishing Contract (or any other duty implied by law), including the obligation to manufacture, market, advertise or distribute the Work. Author is deemed released from all of his obligations under the Publishing Contract.

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 3. Entire Contract
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp This Agreement constitutes the entire understanding of the parties hereto, and they shall not be bound by any terms, covenants, conditions or representations not expressly contained in this Agreement.

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 4. Modifications Only By A Writing
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp This Agreement may not be modified or changed orally, but only by an agreement in writing signed by the Parties.

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 5. No Admission of Liability
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp The parties understand and agree that nothing in this Agreement shall be construed or taken as an admission of liability on the part of any of the Parties.

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 6. Counterparts
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp This Agreement may be signed in counterparts.

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 7. Confidentiality and Non-Disparagement Provision
Each party acknowledges and agrees, promises, covenants and warrants that from this time forward they will not at any time exhibit, reveal or show this Agreement (including drafts) or its contents to a third party, or Publisher. Author agrees that he, his agents, attorneys, employees or family members, will only represent that the relationship between Author and Publisher was “dissolved amicably” and will not disparage Publisher in any manner whatsoever, or host and maintain any Internet web sites whose content disparages Publisher in any manner whatsoever.
Publisher agrees that they, their agents, attorneys, employees or family members, will only represent that the relationship between Publisher and Author was “dissolved amicably” and will not disparage Author in any manner whatsoever, or host and maintain any Internet web sites whose content disparages Author in any manner whatsoever.

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp If suit is filed to enforce any part of this Confidentiality and Non-Disparagement Provision, or otherwise seek redress for breach of this Provision, the prevailing Party or Parties shall be entitled to recover all his/their attorneys’ fees relating to the dispute.

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp PUBLISHAMERICA, LLLP

Dated:_______________________&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp By:________________________________
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp (signature)

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Author Name

Dated:_______________________&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp By:________________________________
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp (signature)

[DaveKuzminski]

According to PublishAmerica's own reversion contract, PA is guilty of breaking the Non-Disparagement clause because PA has permitted people to make comments concerning former PA authors on the PA forum which is maintained by PA.

It might even be possible to include HB as an employee since he gave a seminar for pay at PA's last convention. If so, then that breaks the Non-Disparagement Provision yet again because HB has disparaged a number of former PA authors on their forum and possibly elsewhere. Who knows what he stated there about any of those former authors?

Edited to add the following:

By the way, Willem, Larry, and Miranda, I was asked for my opinion on this by writers who hadn't signed the reversion contract. Whether they signed or not, I'm not bound by your silly contract.

[Risseybug]

What a load! You mean after you've treated me like crap and I've made NO money on a book you published, I can't voice my own opinions on your stupid company?

Please, this is still a free country, I can say what I want! SO glad I am not thinking about them anymore...:hail :ha il:hail
to this board!

[DaveKuzminski]

Not only that, but PA gets the author to absolve it of any wrongdoing should it decide to go ahead and publish and sell a few more copies of the author's book after the reversion. For a publisher using regular short or long printing runs, that's legitimate, but not for print on demand.

They also don't address residual royalties from any stock or sales that they shouldn't make because it's print on demand.

Seems to me, and I'm not a lawyer, that this reversion contract is as equally one-sided as their publishing contract.

[lindylou45]

Dave,

Have you considered making mugs as well. I'd buy them!

[lindylou45]

Each party acknowledges and agrees, promises, covenants and warrants that from this time forward they will not at any time exhibit, reveal or show this Agreement (including drafts) or its contents to a third party, or Publisher


If you can't show it to a publisher, how do you prove your rights have been released. It's just another form of scam from the masters.

[AnneMarble]

It might even be possible to include HB as an employee since he gave a seminar for pay at PA's last convention.

Interesting. I didn't realize that he taught a seminar, or maybe I read it and forgot. What did he teach?

[DaveKuzminski]

Which mugs and which logos would you want available?

[DaveKuzminski]

Let's take a look at the first section titled Mutual General Releases:

First of all, much of this particular paragraph is worthless since an individual cannot obligate someone else to certain terms unless that individual has a power of attorney or other authority to do so. Therefore, the author cannot sign on behalf of any attorneys, agents, and some family members (those who are not minors or otherwise incapacitated). Many of the rest such as trustees, directors, officers, employees, partners, representatives, and associates are very iffy because those generally do not exist in regards to authorship unless the author has incorporated himself. It would also be unlikely for an author to sign on behalf of a predecessor. The only instance where that might be possible would be if the author had permission to create a derivative work from some other author’s writing. In such instances, I doubt that the author could then hold the original author or his estate to any reversion contract since the author would likely NOT be their representative even if he had permission to otherwise write a derivative work.

Secondly, I doubt that an author could hold PA and its minions free from any and all claims since authors do not control what legal authorities can or cannot do. In other words, PA is trying to convince an author that once the contract is signed, they can still do whatever they want while granting themselves immunity from any responsibility for any previous infractions they caused of the publishing contract.

That PA offers the same wording to the author is without merit since it is PA's contract that is being offered and there is no negotiation involved. The wording is equally invalid in some instances for the same reasons because PA does not have the right to sign for some of those parties that are mentioned, though they do have the right to sign for more of what's listed than any author.

Now let's look at the next section:

Despite all of PA’s claims to the contrary, section 2 covering the Transfer of Publication Rights and Release of Publication Obligations certainly strives to release all of the rights that PA claimed they didn’t take. Interestingly enough, there’s no effort to list all the author’s obligations.

Even more interesting is the fact that PA even tries to get the author to once more give them immunity from the law when authors cannot speak for what the law requires or implies is a duty. Again, it’s more obfuscation on PA’s part meant to convince an author that they have no other recourse once the reversion is signed.

[lindylou45]

Which mugs and which logos would you want available?

You decide I'll buy whatever.

[DaveKuzminski]

I'll get some more up tonight.

Okay, there be mugs available!

[DaveKuzminski]

And now the PA quick release used for authors who make lots of noise in PA's direction. The formatting may not transfer, but the text is accurate.

PublishAmerica, LLLP
www.PublishAmerica.com
www.PublishBritannica.com.uk
www.PublishIcelandica.com
royalties@publishamerica.com
Member of the Association of American Publishers
P.O. Box 151
Frederick, MD 21705-0151
Phone: 240-529-1031
Fax: 301-631-9073

Xxxx Xxxx
XXX Street Address
Xcity, Xstate Xzip


DATE

Dear Xxxx Xxxx,

I am informing you that, under Par. 24 of our Agreement, we are discontinuing the publication of your book, Xxxxx Xxxxx as of this day.

Par. 24 states that, “When in the judgment of the Publisher, the public demand for the work is no longer sufficient to warrant its continued manufacture, the Publisher may discontinue further manufacture and destroy any and all plates, books, sheets and electronic files without any liability in connection therewith to the Author. However, the Publisher agrees to notify the Author of such decision in writing, and will offer to transfer to the Author the work and its rights in the copyright thereon, the plates (if any), the bound copies and sheet stock (if any) on the following terms F.O.B. point of shipment: the plates at their value for old metal, the engravings (to be used only in the work) at one-half (½) their original cost, the bound stock at one-half (½) the list price, and the sheet stock at cost of gathering, folding, sewing and preparing for shipment, all without royalties. In the latter event, unless the Author shall, within 30 days, accept said offer and pay the amount set forth in said writing, the Publisher may dispose of the work, copyrights, plates, books, sheets and other property without further liability for royalties or otherwise.”

I am informing you herewith that we have currently no copies of your book in stock. All rights under the copyright are herewith returned to you.

Sincerely,


PA Staff signature,
for PublishAmerica, LLLP

[NancyMehl]

That's the letter I received after selling over 1300 books. Nice way to treat an author who has worked that hard, huh?

After thinking about it, I think it had something to do with my e-mails to them, advising them that I had a chance to put my books in Kroger grocery stores across the state. I wrote several times, trying to get info from them to put the deal through. I think it scared them for some reason. Probably because they knew that their discount (so-called) would ruin the deal, and I would raise heck. They did not want to proceed with it. It was obvious from the way they ignored my e-mails and requests. This should serve as a warning to authors who think PA wants them to suceed. They want you to buy books. They are not set up to help you get into bigger markets.

So....I get this nice letter out of the blue with no warning.

Thank God.

Nancy

[DaveKuzminski]

In all likelihood, a good attorney could sue them for breach of contract since you provided a letter showing that you could place more books and they, instead, determined that there was no demand.

[HapiSofi]

I'll bet they sounded scared because Kroger is part of the ID / wholesale / mass market distribution chain. Selling into that is complicated and demanding and just plain hairy. Much easier to just revert your book.

[Gravity]

Man, I wish I'd get one of those letters. Sweet! *G*