creating religion

dmytryp · Mar 14, 2007

Hi, everyone, I need advice, suggestions etc.
I write fantasy. It was suggested by one of my betas that I should delve deeper into the religion my world has. I think it was a very good idea since some of my people's motivations are faith related. It is also plays an important role in a sequel.
This is what I have so far:
The religion is monoteistic. The One God. He has eight demiurgs (something like angels). They are also patrons for different things.
So far I have seven:

The Knight (which is going to be based on Thor)

The Maiden (Something from Athena and Artemis probably)

The Seeker (patron of the merchants, sciences and the sailors. He is also the one that suggested to the One the creation of a wizard race)

The Gatekeeper (Something of the mix of Hades and Charon -- he judges people souls after their deaths and if they are deserving leads them through the Maze -- which is my hell -- into the halls of the One)

The Artisan (something from Hepheistus probably)

The patron for nature, agriculture (maybe fertility). I have no name yet. Maybe make this one a woman. The Plower? what do you think

The Deciever (this one is based on northern trickster god Loki, but also has traits of Prometheus)

The equivalent of Lucifer is The Prince of Darkness. I am not sure yet how to approach him. Should I make him one of the eight or entirely different entity?

Any thoughts are welcome.

Jennifer L · Mar 14, 2007

Oooh, I want to play. I like your setup, though Plower strikes me as a sort of essentially male role (if we're thinking of gender in traditional terms). Here in flyover country when the jokes are about plowing the fields, the tellers aren't women.

Agriculture/fertility gods often have dual male-female characteristics.

FWIW,
Jennifer Lawler

dmytryp · Mar 14, 2007

Jennifer L said:
Oooh, I want to play. I like your setup, though Plower strikes me as a sort of essentially male role (if we're thinking of gender in traditional terms). Here in flyover country when the jokes are about plowing the fields, the tellers aren't women.

Agriculture/fertility gods often have dual male-female characteristics.

FWIW,
Jennifer Lawler

by all means, chime in.
an interesting idea on the dual characteristics. i tried searching northern and greek mythology for a patron for agriculture and nature, didn't find anything of a great interest

TsukiRyoko · Mar 14, 2007

dmytryp said:
The equivalent of Lucifer is The Prince of Darkness. I am not sure yet how to approach him. Should I make him one of the eight or entirely different entity?

I'd say make him distinct, but not really "different" from the others, if you understand what I mean. Show that the Prince of Darkness is on the black side of the spectrum, but still on the spectrum at the same time.

As for the deity of nature, the Mother, maybe? Perhaps, the Grower?

dmytryp · Mar 14, 2007

TsukiRyoko said:
I'd say make him distinct, but not really "different" from the others, if you understand what I mean. Show that the Prince of Darkness is on the black side of the spectrum, but still on the spectrum at the same time.

As for the deity of nature, the Mother, maybe? Perhaps, the Grower?

I actually have ideas to make some sects believe the Deciever is the Prince of Darkness.
He gets punished for stealing the fire and bringing it to humans, but released after a thousand years, but these sects would believe he was never released. make sense?

loquax · Mar 14, 2007

Demeter is the Greek Goddess of agriculture.

I'd go with "The Sower" or maybe even "The Reaper", although that has bad connotations

Elodie-Caroline · Mar 14, 2007

Hi,
Maybe reading this could help you. It's a link to Greek Mythology, which I used to read much of when I was 10/11 years old. It might give you a few ides anyway.

http://www.business-esolutions.com/starmyths/index.htm

Elodie

Namatu · Mar 14, 2007

Traditionally, nature/fertility is a female role. Nature gives birth, according to some cultures, Nature even birthed human beings. Check out David Leeming's Myth: A Biography of Belief. It's a short little book that gives a good overview of the elements that go into God belief and the similar themes through religions in different cultures and time periods.

The Prince of Darkness should be part of the eight.

My WIP is an urban fantasy in which I draw on segments of various mythologies to contribute to my fictional one. It's fun. My advice is to have your religion and how your characters will interact with it well established in your head. I didn't really plan and I keep having to go back and weave things through because the mythology plays a big role in my story.

Also, a helpful online source: http://www.pantheon.org

dmytryp · Mar 14, 2007

Elodie-Caroline said:
Hi,
Maybe reading this could help you. It's a link to Greek Mythology, which I used to read much of when I was 10/11 years old. It might give you a few ides anyway.

http://www.business-esolutions.com/starmyths/index.htm

Elodie

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out. (I would prefer something from the northern mytologies (sigh). The greeks and the romans were pretty much done to death)

Actually, loquax, Demeter is a goddess of earth (my name is derived from hers)

dmytryp · Mar 14, 2007

Namatu said:
Traditionally, nature/fertility is a female role. Nature gives birth, according to some cultures, Nature even birthed human beings. Check of David Leeming's Myth: A Biography of Belief. It's a short little book that gives a good overview of the elements that go into God belief and the similar themes through religions in different cultures and time periods.

The Prince of Darkness should be part of the eight.

My WIP is an urban fantasy in which I draw on segments of various mythologies to contribute to my fictional one. It's fun. My advice is to have your religion and how your characters will interact with it well established in your head. I didn't really plan and I keep having to go back and weave things through because the mythology plays a big role in my story.

Also, a helpful online source: http://www.pantheon.org

Many thanks (i did find this link earlier).

I have only one problem with the Prince being the one of the eight -- my cathedrals have eight transepts (as the number of the demiurgs). The One devoted to the Prince should have no worshippers (for obvious reasons). My brother who is the co-author pretty much insists the Deciever won't have worshippers either since he disobeyed the One. So here is the dilemma -- two out of eight transepts empty -- an owful waste.

loquax · Mar 14, 2007

Gaia (Earth)

Demeter (Grain and Agriculture)

But hey, wikipedia is wrong all the time so maybe you're right.

Jennifer L · Mar 14, 2007

Re: agricultural/fertility gods/goddesses:

I'm thinking of the connection between the mother earth figure and the dying/resurrected man (the green man) -- the model of the Pieta, which was appropriated by the Christians.

Also, Baal was married to Baalat (fertility goddess) but took on her characteristics and functions as a fertility god (Middle East).

Min, god of male virilty, is married to Quetesh, goddess of love and fertility (Egypt). Min is sometimes conflated with the Greek god Pan.

So that's what I was thinking re: dual male/female characteristics. But, hey, you could have a hermaphrodite god/dess.

Re: the Lucifer character. Is he a rival to the god or subordinate to the god? If he is equal and opposite, I would make him a separate god, not one of the eight. IMHO.

Jennifer Lawler

Memnon624 · Mar 14, 2007

Jennifer L said:
Re: the Lucifer character. Is he a rival to the god or subordinate to the god? If he is equal and opposite, I would make him a separate god, not one of the eight.

Good stuff! You could also have your Lucifer-esque deity be a remnant of the 'old gods'; possibly stronger than the eight, though of waning power. Good luck!

Scott

dmytryp · Mar 14, 2007

loquax said:
Gaia (Earth)

Demeter (Grain and Agriculture)

But hey, wikipedia is wrong all the time so maybe you're right.

You are probably correct on this one. Sorry

dmytryp · Mar 14, 2007

Thank you all. You have to remember, although I want to use elements of the gods for the eight, this is still monotheism, so the rival god is out of the question. The remain of the old gods is probably out too

PeeDee · Mar 14, 2007

You've got a good starting idea there, and some good advice here. I would suggest, given your setup, that you look not only closely at the Greek mythology provided you, but also check out Hindu beliefs. Particularly, read about Vishnu, Shiva, and the others.

Particlarly, you might find it useful (or at least interesting; I adore this stuff) to read about Mahasamatman, the binder of demons, the lord of light.

I'm not saying you'll want to copy it, but do read a lot of the myth and religious theology as you work, and you can create something truly fascinating.

And I'd love to hear more about it as you're creating it. Religion, particularly used in books (whether its A Canticle for Leibowitz using Catholicism, or Lord of Light using the Hindu pantheon) especially when it's done really well.

dmytryp · Mar 14, 2007

Yeah, Zheliazniy did a great job in th "Lord of the Light". It's one of my favorites. This is probably why I don't want to use it -- too much temptation for plagiarism

PeeDee · Mar 14, 2007

dmytryp said:
Yeah, Zheliazniy did a great job in th "Lord of the Light". It's one of my favorites. This is probably why I don't want to use it -- too much temptation for plagiarism

You're not plagiarising, you're not even using Lord of Light (I adore that book, and Zelazny in general) you're just reading up on Hindu mythology. Books have been done on a huge range of religions, no matter if you pull from Greek mythology, Hindu, Anansi stories, African Kobolds, someone's done it before.

You're not lifting the religion outright, you're just reading various sources and seeing what they give you that you're interested in working with.

Anyway, you don't have to read up on Hindu myth, I just thought it'd be interesting. Use what you're comfortable with.

dmytryp · Mar 14, 2007

Thanks, Pete!
I didn't mean I'd take from Zelazny as is, but since I read the book several times it would be hard for me not to get sucked in.
I did download something on Yama for the Gatekeeper character, though

dmytryp · Mar 14, 2007

Well, boys and girls, thank you all for comments. I am off to bed (my son is probably going to wake me up at some point anyway). Feel free to keep the thread alive. I am looking forward to read what you had to add in the morning
Thanks again

IrishScribbler · Mar 14, 2007

Joseph Campbell, in his Myths to Live By explores universal myths. He, and others, argue that there are archetypes that are the foundation for mythology/fiction/folklore/etc. for all humanity.

You might find it helpful to research this and see what patterns/archetypes/stories are repeated in religions.

PeeDee · Mar 14, 2007

That is such a good book.

JBI · Mar 14, 2007

Since you seem to have been influenced by three major sources (Norse, Greek, and Jewish/Christian), I would sugest you read a little deeper into those religions, specifically Greek.

You will notice, that the Greek gods are all the personifications of things that exist in the world. From emotions to rivers. Your basic pantheon really is more like a Olympians, simplistic and a bare fraction of the gods.

I recommend reading Hesiod's Theogony, and seeing how many gods he has. YOur gods, since they are personifications of things, are way to simplistic, and thereby leave too many details out. Either you will need to add more gods/angels/whatever, which possess the remaining ideas/things, or to increase their power. Just my opinion, I guess if you want I can let you look at my Pantheon, (if you want to just PM me), but other than that just add a lot more.

dmytryp · Mar 14, 2007

JBI said:
Since you seem to have been influenced by three major sources (Norse, Greek, and Jewish/Christian), I would sugest you read a little deeper into those religions, specifically Greek.

You will notice, that the Greek gods are all the personifications of things that exist in the world. From emotions to rivers. Your basic pantheon really is more like a Olympians, simplistic and a bare fraction of the gods.

I recommend reading Hesiod's Theogony, and seeing how many gods he has. YOur gods, since they are personifications of things, are way to simplistic, and thereby leave too many details out. Either you will need to add more gods/angels/whatever, which possess the remaining ideas/things, or to increase their power. Just my opinion, I guess if you want I can let you look at my Pantheon, (if you want to just PM me), but other than that just add a lot more.

Thank you.
Actually, there is only One god and he is all powerfull. The demiurgs are his servants. They have worshippers as patrons for particular professions. This is the reason I chose these ones.
Another question: if the Princr is not the part of the eight, who than?

aruna · Mar 15, 2007

PeeDee said:
You've got a good starting idea there, and some good advice here. I would suggest, given your setup, that you look not only closely at the Greek mythology provided you, but also check out Hindu beliefs. Particularly, read about Vishnu, Shiva, and the others.

You took the words right out of my mouth!

Have you read the Mahabharata? There you get the whole lowdown on the Hindu pantheon, in story form. A fantastic book.

(As a matter of fact, it's so fantastic I have written a new version of it, which I'm having beta read right now; I found all the other versions lacking in some way, either too long or to boring or too superficial.)

As in your idea, there is in Hinudism also ONE God, and all the other gods and demons are outcroppings of that oneness.

creating religion

dmytryp

Jennifer L

dmytryp

TsukiRyoko

Forced into cell phone life

dmytryp

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly

Elodie-Caroline

Namatu

Lost in mental space.

dmytryp

dmytryp

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly

Jennifer L

Memnon624

A Boy and his Orc . . .

dmytryp

dmytryp

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

dmytryp

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

dmytryp

dmytryp

IrishScribbler

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

JBI

dmytryp

aruna

On a wing and a prayer