Dumb question

eric11210 · Mar 10, 2007

Hi all,

Dumb question: When you submit a manuscript, it's supposed to be double spaced, right?

I only ask because I noticed that my novel didn't seem to be long enough. I've been told the average for typed work is around 250 words per page. I kept wondering why I didn't have so many pages. Only around 160. But the word count was 84,000. Then it occurred to me to average the pages and I found I had a little more than 500 words per page. . .

So I'm assuming the 250 figure is with double spacing?

To me, it looks too spread out that way, but I guess they ask for that because it's easier to line edit. . .

Eric

Edward G · Mar 10, 2007

The standard for all manuscripts of any kind, be they fiction going to an editor, or a school paper is double-spaced. The typical words per page you mention are based on double-spacing.

Thank God for word processors, huh?

PeeDee · Mar 10, 2007

What a dumb question. I'm ashamed to be seen in public with you.

Double space it, via the paragraph setting in your word processor, which is probably what you did, and then let it be. Worry less about your number of pages and more about your word count. 84,000 is a respectable number, you're fine.

Double-space, set the font to something nice and readable like Courier, make sure it looks clean and clear.

And welcome to AW.

FloVoyager · Mar 10, 2007

Yup. Double-spaced is the standard. And you might want to check out this helpful thread: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26126

CaroGirl · Mar 10, 2007

eric11210 said:
When you submit a manuscript, it's supposed to be double spaced, right?

Right.

eric11210 said:
So I'm assuming the 250 figure is with double spacing?

Correct, yes. You should also change the font to Courier New, 12 pt. That's the truest font to a regular printed novel page. It's a proportional font, which means that each letter takes up the same amount of space, whether it's an "i" or an "m".

When you actually print your ms for submission, though, make sure you follow their guidlines, if font or size differs (double spacing, however, is always standard).

Best of luck!

ORION · Mar 10, 2007

Oh boy! Let's have a discussion about Courier versus New Times Roman. My editor from Putnam made me use NTR!!!!
*smile*

ORION · Mar 10, 2007

Oh yes...
Lots of info on this subject here but --
THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS
Only dumb questioners...
Wait. No. That's not what I meant.
Double space. Either Courier OR NTR (I prefer NTR) and for God's sake just use the word count tool on word...

PeeDee · Mar 10, 2007

I write in NTR because it's what my word processor defaults too, and I haven't an interest in changing it. But when I print or submit, I always go to Courier, because it's just easier on my eyes.

PeeDee · Mar 10, 2007

ORION said:
Oh yes...
Lots of info on this subject here but --
THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS
Only dumb questioners...
Wait. No. That's not what I meant.
Double space. Either Courier OR NTR (I prefer NTR) and for God's sake just use the word count tool on word...

That's a dumb thing to say. Dum-dum.

Edward G · Mar 10, 2007

ORION said:
Oh boy! Let's have a discussion about Courier versus New Times Roman. My editor from Putnam made me use NTR!!!!
*smile*

I know there used to be a reason for courier: I think it was so the printers could determine words per page, since each letter takes up the same amount of space. Today, howerver, that wouldn't matter, and only what is easier to read for editing purposes would matter.

I guess it's whatever the editor wants, since it's a simple click to change it.

eric11210 · Mar 10, 2007

OK guys. I did know about the Courier or TNR 12 point rule. I also know the 1 inch margins rule. For some reason, I seem to have glazed over the double spaced thing. Probably because I never double space because it looks too spread out to me.

Thanks for the info.

Eric

PeeDee · Mar 10, 2007

Sure thing, Eric. That's what 99% of us are here for.

Claudia Gray · Mar 10, 2007

I used Times New Roman, because I frankly think it reads better and looks more like the page of a book than Courier ever would.

PeeDee · Mar 10, 2007

ClaudiaGray said:
I used Times New Roman, because I frankly think it reads better and looks more like the page of a book than Courier ever would.

Well, yes, but when submitting you aren't trying to make your manuscript look like a book, you're trying to make it easy and clear to read. Hence the double-spacing, and the commonplace use of Courier for proper manuscript formatting.

rugcat · Mar 10, 2007

ORION said:
Oh boy! Let's have a discussion about Courier versus New Times Roman. My editor from Putnam made me use NTR!!!!
*smile*

That's probably because TNR is so much easier to read.

This is another of those interminable arguments that will never be resolved. One agent I know said he thought perhaps the reason Courier became the "standard" was not so much that it's a monospace font, but simply because that was the default font on the old IBM electric typewriters that everyone in publishing used. He doesn't care for it, himself.

And despite what some reputable posters will tell you, no agent will fault you for either font. You may as well pick the one you like.

Claudia Gray · Mar 10, 2007

rugcat said:
That's probably because TNR is so much easier to read.

This is another of those interminable arguments that will never be resolved. One agent I know said he thought perhaps the reason Courier became the "standard" was not so much that it's a monospace font, but simply because that was the default font on the old IBM electric typewriters that everyone in publishing used. He doesn't care for it, himself.

And despite what some reputable posters will tell you, no agent will fault you for either font. You may as well pick the one you like.

I find TNR much easier to read, too.

But to be reaaaaaallly classy, go for Chiller every time!

Jamesaritchie · Mar 11, 2007

PeeDee said:
Well, yes, but when submitting you aren't trying to make your manuscript look like a book, you're trying to make it easy and clear to read. Hence the double-spacing, and the commonplace use of Courier for proper manuscript formatting.

Actually, you're trying to make it easy to edit, easier to insert proofreaders' marks, specifically, and it's infinitely easier to do this with Courier 12 than with Times New Roman. It's a royal pain the ass to insert proofreaders' marks into a small, tightly spaced font such as Times.

blacbird · Mar 11, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
Actually, you're trying to make it easy to edit, easier to insert proofreaders' marks, specifically, and it's infinitely easier to do this with Courier 12 than with Times New Roman. It's a royal pain the ass to insert proofreaders' marks into a small, tightly spaced font such as Times.

JAR is exactly correct here. I've done technical scientific editing, and I assure you that Courier is far easier to work with than TNR. "Readability" is not the main issue, and in any case, tends to be a subjective personal preference.

caw

Siddow · Mar 11, 2007

Ya'll are driving me crazy. New Times Roman, Times New Roman...

I thought I was becoming dyslexic.

PeeDee · Mar 11, 2007

blacbird said:
JAR is exactly correct here. I've done technical scientific editing, and I assure you that Courier is far easier to work with than TNR. "Readability" is not the main issue, and in any case, tends to be a subjective personal preference.

caw

Well, if it were done for sheer readability, then we would probably have novels that are printed in Courier too. Can we assume I was generalizing with the word "readability?"

ORION · Mar 11, 2007

OK my copyedited manuscript from Putnam came to me last month and it was printed out in TNR and the copyedit marks fit just fine as most of the comments are made out in the margins. The copyeditor specifically asked me to draw a line out to the margin and write there if I had anything to add.
Agents and editors do not really care what font you use. If they do -- they will tell you to change it or they will change it themselves. You are right - it is only a click of a button.
No worries.

Chumplet · Mar 11, 2007

Okay, here's a dilemma. I submitted my manuscript in TNR 12pt, and with one inch margins, the average word count per page was 300. That made my word count about 57,500 when using both the 300xpage count, and the MS tool bar. But... the editor told me they base the word count on 250 words per page, even though TNR is being used. Therefore their word count is estimated at about 48,000 words. In order for me to have this book come out in print at 55,000 words, I have to add 25-odd pages. Should I argue, or just pad the word count? (Yes, the contract has been signed.)

rugcat · Mar 11, 2007

Chumplet said:
Should I argue, or just pad the word count? (Yes, the contract has been signed.)

I suggest cheating.

If you reprint the ms using TNR 13, or 1.25" side margins, or both, or change the font to Courier, you can find a way to average 250 words per page. Then you can submit the new copy which will meet their guidelines without changing a word.

And it's not really cheating, anyway. If they're basing their wordcount on 250 words a page, format it so that it conforms with their expectations.

Judg · Mar 11, 2007

Make it simple and change it to Courier.

rugcat · Mar 11, 2007

Much more succinct.

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