Pov shifts

Dulvarian_Eldritch · Mar 9, 2007

What do you think of short pov switches?

For example, you know who the MC is, but to keep the action flowing smoothly, making a short shift to someone else as the MC leaves the scene. Would you find that jarring?

I think that it is fine so long as it moves the story along, and I have seen it done before, I'm just curious as to the impression of it (from a reader standpoint, not a writer).

And by the way, hello to the few I've PM'd back and forth in the past. It's been a while.

maestrowork · Mar 9, 2007

Dulvarian_Eldritch said:
For example, you know who the MC is, but to keep the action flowing smoothly, making a short shift to someone else as the MC leaves the scene. Would you find that jarring?

Why would you want to do that? Yes, I would find that jarring and irritating, even if you switch POV by scenes. Unless, of course, you already have multiple POV characters.

RG570 · Mar 10, 2007

I guess it depends on the type of story, but I do it all the time. I never thought of it as a problem.

greatfish · Mar 10, 2007

A short POV change usually draws a lot of attention to itself and leads the reader to believe that for some reason the author wanted them to notice this part more than any other part of the story. If you don't believe this part of the novel deserves that kind of attention, then I would find another way.

Rhea L · Mar 10, 2007

To me, it's quite simple: If the part of a scene where you want to switch POV characters is important, then your MC should be a part of it. In which case s/he can narrate it. If it's still important but you can't have your MC there, have them find out what happened. Have the consequences of their not being there smack them square in the face. Or whatever. But make it a part of the POV's experience.

As a reader, I'd much rather see it done that way; head-hopping is jarring and distracts me, as I constantly have to reorient myself (wait, so whose eyes am I seeing this through now?) and pay attention to the writing in addition to the story. I'd prefer to follow that one (or two, if your novel is set up that way) MCs, get 'close' to them, and experience the story as they do, instead of having it handed to me on a silver platter by several conveniently placed extras.

Edward G · Mar 10, 2007

I've always heard, and believe myself, that POV shifts are a fault in fiction. I do, however see them even by famous authors. I don't think the average reader, who is not a writer, cares. They think it's alright, but we know better as writers.

As for me, I try to edit out any POV shifts I find in my writing. I always have multiple POV characters and separate them by chapter or a major break within a chapter.

I try to get around POV shifts by using terms like "He seemed to be thinking..., His expression looked as if..., that kind of thing. I even try to keep those cheap tricks to a minimum and perfer one point of view only and the third-person descritptions of action and setting.

Anyone out there, please feel free to correct me if I've said something incorrect, or more often than not, idiotic.

dpaterso · Mar 10, 2007

I often see POV shifts in fiction, depending on the author; and depending on the author it either is or isn't jarring. The deciding factor of course is whether the new POV is immediately interesting and compels me to keep reading regardless.

I always start a new scene whenever I'm changing POVs, I decided long ago that this was the best way -- for me, anyway. Makes the writing feel stronger. Shrug, each to their own preferences.

-Derek

Rhea L · Mar 10, 2007

GordonJerome said:
I don't think the average reader, who is not a writer, cares. They think it's alright, but we know better as writers.

I'm not sure if I agree with the above. I cared as a reader long before I started writing, myself. It's a matter of preference, on the reader's part, not a question of whether head-hopping is or isn't an error; still, it doesn't change the fact that some readers will prefer a more 'intimate' relationship with the POV character(s) and hate it when you switch just as they were getting comfortable.

Also, you see many famous writers do that because the POV rules, like many other things, change over time - or rather, what is considered 'standard' is changing.

Evaine · Mar 10, 2007

The best example of head hopping I ever saw was in one of the Deryni books by Katherine Kurtz. It was important that the reader knew what was going on in a room, and for various reasons the characters had to keep going in and out of the room. Each time a character left, the POV was switched over to someone else, and she did it so smoothly I never noticed until I went back and looked at the scene again.

Mae · Mar 10, 2007

POV shifts inside the same scene really need to be seamless if you don't want the reader to stop and feel the need to reread parts over and over.

I get so frustrated when I am forced to do that: it makes me think of the author instead of their story. Ruins the mood.

Raphee · Mar 10, 2007

Same scene, different POV's....not easy to do well. That said, The Lord of The Flies by William Golding is a good example of small shifts of POV.

Claudia Gray · Mar 10, 2007

POV shifts are neither inherently good nor bad -- it's all in how you use them. My personal opinion is that, the more often you're switching POV, the better a writer you have to be to maintain plot integrity and emotional momentum.

If your switch genuinely adds something to the story that you wouldn't get any other way, use it. If you can think of a way around it, try that instead. Does your MC have to leave the scene at that time? Is it necessary for the reader to stay at the scene after the MCs departure, and to have information that the MC won't have? I can see ways in which that could be desirable, and ways in which it would be unnecessary. Trust your judgment.

maestrowork · Mar 10, 2007

Raphee said:
Same scene, different POV's....not easy to do well. That said, The Lord of The Flies by William Golding is a good example of small shifts of POV.

Wasn't Lord of the Flies written in omniscient? It's been a while since I read it.

ChaosTitan · Mar 10, 2007

Dulvarian_Eldritch said:
For example, you know who the MC is, but to keep the action flowing smoothly, making a short shift to someone else as the MC leaves the scene. Would you find that jarring?

If the MC is leaving, why would we stay in the room?

It's risky to shift to someone else, scene break or not, especially if we never get to see that character's POV again. Resist the urge to direct the scene as though you are watching a movie. In film, James Bond can leave the room and still have the camera linger in that room long enough for his informant to wink at the audience and sneer, "Little does he know that it's all a set up!" (cheesy example, but bear with me) Movies can give us those little asides, those tidbits of extra information, but those tidbits rarely work in novels.

Suspense comes from what the MC (and likewise the reader) doesn't know, rather than what we do know. Not always, there are often exceptions.

As the writer, if you think it's important to remain in the room once the MC is gone (and that the information given is vital), why not write the entire scene from this secondary character's POV?

scarletpeaches · Mar 10, 2007

POV shift = head-jumping = evil, evil, evil.

maestrowork · Mar 10, 2007

chaostitan said:
Suspense comes from what the MC (and likewise the reader) doesn't know, rather than what we do know. Not always, there are often exceptions.

I think that's something many new writers may fail to do -- to create suspense or understand that not everything has to be described. When the MC leaves the room, follow him. Who cares what is happening in the room? There are many ways to reveal what happens after he leaves, but it is the MC's story, and that's why you choose his POV to begin with.

The only exception is that you have multiple POV characters, and another POV character is in the room after the MC leaves. In that case, you may switch to this POV character and continue the story that way, if what happens in the room is important and you don't want to wait to tell it.

But if you've only followed the MC throughout the story, it's very jarring to break that POV just to tell us something the POV character won't know at that moment. Build some suspense. Let us know later:

"You know, Jerry," Dave said, "after you left the meeting, Linda fainted."
"Really, what happened?"
blah blah

Raphee · Mar 11, 2007

maestrowork said:
Wasn't Lord of the Flies written in omniscient? It's been a while since I read it.

You could say that because there are quite a few POV's in the book.
I find it one of those books difficult to label as 3rd multi POV or omniscient. But since it has one protagonist, who takes up the bulk of the story, I found the former label more in line.

maestrowork · Mar 11, 2007

I seem to remember it was in omniscient, that there was a clear "god-like" narrator. I guess I will have to reread it...

MMWyrm · Mar 21, 2007

I have one annoying head-hop in my 1st novel. My MC slips into unconsciousness after being attacked in an alley. A new character is introduced who ends up helping my MC back to his house. It bothers me.... but there is no way for my unconscious MC to be the POV character right then. And I hate the "everything went black..... and then I awoke in a strange place" thing.

maestrowork · Mar 21, 2007

MMWyrm said:
I have one annoying head-hop in my 1st novel. My MC slips into unconsciousness after being attacked in an alley. A new character is introduced who ends up helping my MC back to his house. It bothers me.... but there is no way for my unconscious MC to be the POV character right then. And I hate the "everything went black..... and then I awoke in a strange place" thing.

Why not? It's better than breaking out of POV just to show us someone else is taking him to his house. You don't even have to say everything turns black... Just pick up where he wakes up and finds out what happened.

There's a similar scene in THE PACIFIC BETWEEN. I did the fade out-wake up thing. No problem.

POV shifts should be done for a purpose, and that purpose doesn't include "oh crap, I need someone to tell the story while the POV character is not there." Find some ways to relay the events later.

blacbird · Mar 21, 2007

MMWyrm said:
I have one annoying head-hop in my 1st novel. My MC slips into unconsciousness after being attacked in an alley. A new character is introduced who ends up helping my MC back to his house. It bothers me.... but there is no way for my unconscious MC to be the POV character right then. And I hate the "everything went black..... and then I awoke in a strange place" thing.

I'm with Maestro on this one. Why does this "new character" need to be introduced simply for the purpose of helping the unconscious MC get back to his house? If it's an important character, he can be brought in after the MC wakes up and can explain that he helped the MC get back. Much more satisfactory, seems to me.

caw

MMWyrm · Mar 21, 2007

Then it would be better than for the new character to give a monologue of sorts (or dialogue with the MC who is basically moaning in pain and snapping) about the situation and events that transpired in the meantime? Perhaps I have to get rid of the events and create new ones when my MC is awake that satifsy the same need.... hmmm....

Gnack - was writing that bit at the same time as blacbird I suppose.

maestrowork · Mar 21, 2007

You know the scene in Casino Royale...

--- SPOILER ----

.... when James Bond passed out, and then later found himself in a posh rehab facility? It worked. We then found out what happened because now he was conscious and could carry on a conversation and ask questions. It's more suspenseful that way, too.

The thing is, you don't have to report everything, and certainly not every moment of the story. Use the "unknown" to build suspense or character and you can pick up the plot some other ways -- without breaking the contract with your readers by breaking the POV.

MMWyrm · Mar 21, 2007

I know I don't have to report everything. THe whole situation the MC is in is rather an unknown to begin with. Some of the events while he is unconscious were clues to solve the whole mini-mystery of the situation.

But anyway.... Thanks for the help! I need it!

David Wisehart · Mar 21, 2007

I always use a line break between POV shifts to clue in the reader to the change.

My novel, Devil's Lair, has four POV characters who are on the same journey, and who more often that not share the same scenes. Early in the book, I tell each scene from one POV. Later, once the POVs are well established, I occasionally switch POVs within a scene, but always include a line break, picking up the continuing action of the scene after the break but in another person's head.

At the climax, I switch POVs not only within a scene, but in the middle of an argument and the climactic battle. Many of these POV moments only last a few paragraphs before another switch. The effect is almost cinematic.

My beta readers thought this was very effective, because by that time they knew each of the characters well.

I only find POV switches confusing when there isn't a line break to clue the reader.

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