"and then"

J C Coy · Mar 7, 2007

Hey all, I've been hanging around for almost a year and decided to come out of the closet.

It seems that somewhere I read a post dealing with "and then". It might have been in the Uncle Jim thread but I'm not sure. The gist was that it is incorrect. Is it always incorrect or just incorrect depending on the usage? Does anyone know where that thread might be located? The "and then" thing is really bothering me.

triceretops · Mar 7, 2007

It bothers me, too, because my word program tags it and wants me to use "and then" when I only want to use "then."

Tri

loquax · Mar 7, 2007

Yeah it's somewhere in Uncle Jim's thread.

I follow the rule pretty strictly, because I understand how it's wrong. But I read it in novels all the time, and often I get comments about using "then" on its own, saying it sounds bad. So it's not one of those rules to lose sleep over.

swvaughn · Mar 7, 2007

There seem to be several theories on this. I've heard agents and editors (including mine) say the word "then" should be used sparingly, if at all. Also, "and then" should never be used at all (according to some). "And" is the most acceptable.

Both "and" and "then" are usually timing words, when there's a dispute over which should be used. If you have a sentence like

He opened the door, and then he moved aside to admit the woman.

It would read better without "then". Actually, it would read better without "then" and "he"...

He opened the door and moved aside to admit the woman.

Sometimes you do need "then" because it's awkward without the word. If two actions in a sentence can't be performed at the same time, you need either "and" or "then" (but not both). In most cases it's best to use "and", but for sequential action use "then".

And of course, if you can rewrite the sentence without either of them, that's often a good choice.

He opened the door. A woman entered, clutching a wrinkled sheet of paper. She slapped him.

Eliminating them gives you clearer, stronger sentences, and more room to play.

In short (and remember, this is just one theory, and does not necessarily apply to everyone): default to using "and", use "then" sparingly, and try to completely avoid "and then."

Make sense? No? Didn't think so...

swvaughn · Mar 7, 2007

P.S. Welcome out of the closet, J.C.!

J C Coy · Mar 7, 2007

I've cut every single "and then" from my work (and there were a lot of them) but I see it in novels by best selling authors all the time...and that bothers me, too. :tongue

J C Coy · Mar 7, 2007

swvaughn said:
P.S. Welcome out of the closet, J.C.!

Thanks, lol.

J C Coy · Mar 7, 2007

swvaughn said:
There seem to be several theories on this. I've heard agents and editors (including mine) say the word "then" should be used sparingly, if at all. Also, "and then" should never be used at all (according to some). "And" is the most acceptable.

Both "and" and "then" are usually timing words, when there's a dispute over which should be used. If you have a sentence like

He opened the door, and then he moved aside to admit the woman.

It would read better without "then". Actually, it would read better without "then" and "he"...

He opened the door and moved aside to admit the woman.

Sometimes you do need "then" because it's awkward without the word. If two actions in a sentence can't be performed at the same time, you need either "and" or "then" (but not both). In most cases it's best to use "and", but for sequential action use "then".

And of course, if you can rewrite the sentence without either of them, that's often a good choice.

He opened the door. A woman entered, clutching a wrinkled sheet of paper. She slapped him.

Eliminating them gives you clearer, stronger sentences, and more room to play.

In short (and remember, this is just one theory, and does not necessarily apply to everyone): default to using "and", use "then" sparingly, and try to completely avoid "and then."

Make sense? No? Didn't think so...

Yeah, this helps. Thanks.

scribbler1382 · Mar 7, 2007

swvaughn said:
There seem to be several theories on this. I've heard agents and editors (including mine) say the word "then" should be used sparingly, if at all. Also, "and then" should never be used at all (according to some). "And" is the most acceptable.

Both "and" and "then" are usually timing words, when there's a dispute over which should be used. If you have a sentence like

He opened the door, and then he moved aside to admit the woman.

It would read better without "then". Actually, it would read better without "then" and "he"...

He opened the door and moved aside to admit the woman.

Sometimes you do need "then" because it's awkward without the word. If two actions in a sentence can't be performed at the same time, you need either "and" or "then" (but not both). In most cases it's best to use "and", but for sequential action use "then".

And of course, if you can rewrite the sentence without either of them, that's often a good choice.

He opened the door. A woman entered, clutching a wrinkled sheet of paper. She slapped him.

Eliminating them gives you clearer, stronger sentences, and more room to play.

In short (and remember, this is just one theory, and does not necessarily apply to everyone): default to using "and", use "then" sparingly, and try to completely avoid "and then."

Make sense? No? Didn't think so...

This is excellent. But remember that prose and dialog are two different things. "and then" in dialog is perfectly acceptable. In fact, encouraged if you're going for verisimilitude (depending on the degree you're going for, of course). It's probably acceptable in certain types of prose, as well. For instance, a very informal first person narrator. Or a young narrator.

swvaughn · Mar 7, 2007

Yeah, but bestselling authors are allowed to get away with stuff non-bestselling authors can't, because they're "proven." LOL

I think it's a matter of balance. If "and then" sounds awkward and clumsy to you, prune it out. If it doesn't, leave it in. It's fine to break the rules as long as you know what they are first.

(Personally, I think bestselling authors have many instances of breaking rules the rest of us follow for one of two reasons. Either they couldn't take the time to polish every word to the best of their abilities because now that their publishers know they'll make money, they have deadlines; or they don't feel the need to bother. I don't know any bestselling authors personally, so I won't speak for any of them.)

When you're not under a deadline, you have all the time you need to make your work the best it can possibly be, and you should take advantage of it. Once authors reach mega-bestseller status, you can pretty much guarantee people will buy their books -- even if they end up not liking them. And they'll probably buy the next one too... in the hopes that it will be better. This, of course, refers to readers more than writers. I've known plenty of writers (including myself) who won't read a bestselling author any more if they come out with a crap book.

Just MHO, is all I'm sayin'...

swvaughn · Mar 7, 2007

scribbler1382 said:
This is excellent. But remember that prose and dialog are two different things. "and then" in dialog is perfectly acceptable. In fact, encouraged if you're going for verisimilitude (depending on the degree you're going for, of course). It's probably acceptable in certain types of prose, as well. For instance, a very informal first person narrator. Or a young narrator.

Ah! Thank you, Marty. I meant to mention that there are different rules for dialogue than for prose. Good catch!

Raphee · Mar 7, 2007

Another one is But then.

J C Coy · Mar 7, 2007

swvaughn said:
Ah! Thank you, Marty. I meant to mention that there are different rules for dialogue than for prose. Good catch!

I let my characters speak as they should. I know they don't have to follow the rules.

J C Coy · Mar 7, 2007

Raphee said:
Another one is But then.

OMG, I don't think I've ever used that one!

J C Coy · Mar 7, 2007

swvaughn said:
Yeah, but bestselling authors are allowed to get away with stuff non-bestselling authors can't, because they're "proven." LOL

Good point.

swvaughn · Mar 7, 2007

J C Coy said:
I let my characters speak as they should. I know they don't have to follow the rules.

LOL -- too bad we do. Our characters are so lucky! Now, if only we could figure out what the rules are...

alleycat · Mar 7, 2007

It is not just best-selling authors . . . if you look carefully enough, just about every grammar handbook will use "and then" in the text.

Here's a few online versions:

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_actpass.html

http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/a.html

This is one of those "rules" that is more sound than fury. JMHO. I'm certainly not a grammar guru.

CaroGirl · Mar 7, 2007

The grammar rule is that "then" is not, by itself, a coordinating conjunction. Using it on its own is incorrect. If you want to use it as a conjunction, you must preface it with a real coordinating conjunction, such as "and" or "but".

Or you can take them all out. That works too.

swvaughn · Mar 7, 2007

CaroGirl said:
The grammar rule is that "then" is not, by itself, a coordinating conjunction. Using it on its own is incorrect. If you want to use it as a conjunction, you must preface it with a real coordinating conjunction, such as "and" or "but".

Or you can take them all out. That works too.

Grammar, shmammar!

"And then" looks weird and sounds weird. "But then" seems even worse...

Come to think of it, so does "weird."

Okay... I'm sorry. CaroGirl is grammatically correct. Be grammatical! Or not. Man, I hate rules...

Yeah, just take 'em out. What she said.

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 7, 2007

Then is an adverb. What do we say about most adverbs? Cut them ruthlessly, savagely, and then without prejudicely.

J C Coy · Mar 7, 2007

I slay adverbs for recreation.

alleycat · Mar 7, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
Then is an adverb. What do we say about most adverbs? Cut them ruthlessly, savagely, and then without prejudicely.

And do it quickly.

(It's also a noun and an adjective.)

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 7, 2007

Then is a noun? Use it in a sentence. I understand it as an adverb expressing time relationships.

maestrowork · Mar 7, 2007

If I were a nice guy I would have dug up the posts in Uncle Jim's thread... but since I am not...

Anyway, I think the gist is that "and then" is redundant. It's either "and" or "then." But then Reph challenged Uncle Jim: "and" is needed because it's a conjunction to link the two clauses together; "then" is only an adverb. The only time "then" makes sense is in a series:

"He paid the bills, ate his dinner, then washed his car."

"He paid the bills, then washed his car" doesn't make sense grammatically because "then" is an adverb, not a conjunction.

Personally, I am on the fence. I don't like how "and then" sound, and I agree it's redundant. So usually I just use and. I try to use "then" only in a sequence or when the chronological order is important (one has to come before another).

CaroGirl · Mar 7, 2007

then, n. "Since then, he's been more cautious." meaning that time.

If our novelist forefathers knew what we were doing to the adverb, they'd turn over in their graves, disgustedly.

"and then"

I verb nouns adverbly

adrift

adrift

Write For You, Edit For The Reader

adrift

adrift

In debt to AW

adrift

Still around

Living the dream

adrift

Court Jester

Still around

Court Jester

Fear the Death Ray

Living the dream