Is this racist? Stereotyping?

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 6, 2007

I'm giving my WIP that final go over and as I read the following passage it ocurred to me that maybe someone might be offended by it. Or maybe not. I'm not sure, so I put the question to you, is the description of the character, a Native American, stereotyping? And if so, should I make him look -- oh, I don't know -- Jewish?

(I'm thinking of the controversy over Star Wars I where the character who Anaikin was indentured to was blasted for being a blatant Jewish stereotype.)

Anyway...

I shook hands with John Menomonee. He had a strong handshake and an even stronger aura. It shown bright red indicating he was either very energetic or that he was very powerful magic-wise.

He had a strong jaw and a hawk-like nose that looked like it had been broken several times and allowed to heal unset. His shock white hair was long and held back in a ponytail.

His dark pinstriped suit hugged him perfectly. There wasn't a bulge or crease in view. I've seen GQ models that looked more slovenly.

"Have a seat, please," he said as he settled himself behind his desk. I noted that his desk was clean and organized, obviously the sign of a sick mind.

His dark eyes glittered as they watched me but they betrayed no emotion, reminiscent of his namesake. [ed. His Native American name if Flying Snake, revealed earlier in the story.] "You didn't say what it was you needed to see me about, Mister...?"

"Tromonte, but call me Alex, please," I said.

"And you may call me, John," he returned. "Now, this is about?"

"I'm interested in tribal superstitions."

"I'm a lawyer, or was a lawyer. I retired last year. Now I just handle simple legal matters for the tribe. If you want to discuss superstitions, you should see a..." he paused as a mocking smile crossed his lips and then finished, "witch doctor."

alleycat · Mar 6, 2007

I don't think I've never heard "witch doctor" used for an American Indian tribe. I've heard "medicine man". I believe there are other terms that are used as well.

pink lily · Mar 6, 2007

Ditto to "medicine man" unless your character uses "witch doctor" as a slur to mock medicine men. Also, you have a typo, "He had a strong handshake and an even stronger aura. It shown bright red" should be "It shone bright red."

Your description does not appear to foster a racial stereotype, to me.

PeeDee · Mar 6, 2007

The smile before he said "witch doctor" made me think he meant it sarcastically and cynically, so I don't mind that at all.

I thought it was a solid description. Not racist at all. But then, all that jabber from the Star Wars movie was silly, silly talk anyway. They had to work pretty hard to find a way to make Sebulba seem like a Jewish legend. It was pretty pathetic.

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 6, 2007

Medicine man. Yeah, I was having the Native American character use witch doctor as a slur. There is an undercurrent of confrontation between the two that comes in later in the conversation until they get to know each other better.

And shone. Thanks.

Cav Guy · Mar 6, 2007

People will find something racist and/or stereotypical in just about anything if they are of a mind to do so. That said, either medicine man, shaman, or wise man might be more fitting for proper reference to a native practitioner. If he's being sarcastic, as PD suggested, then stick with witch doctor. He could also be casting his own aspersions on what he considers "less pure" native practices, depending on the character.

davids · Mar 6, 2007

just_a_girl · Mar 6, 2007

Obviously I'm reading this passage out of context, but I'm wondering if Native Americans would refer to their religious beliefs as "superstitions" or call their spiritual leaders "witch doctors?"

RJLeahy · Mar 6, 2007

I agree with the rest. Simply describing a character with specific racial traits, is not racist, and much preferable I think, to having everyone "homogenous".

Also, your description of a Native American character was much kinder than the one from my latest work:

He had a face like leather, creased and pitted, as though someone had left a baseball mitt in the rain for a week, then beaten it with a rock. These weren't just age lines, they were crevices you could loose change in. I've seen weather damaged skin before, but this was ridiculous. I've thrown out better looking shoes.

Judg · Mar 6, 2007

RJLeahy said:
I agree with the rest. Simply describing a character with specific racial traits, is not racist, and much preferable I think, to having everyone "homogenous".

Also, your description of a Native American character was much kinder than the one from my latest work:

He had a face like leather, creased and pitted, as though someone had left a baseball mitt in the rain for a week, then beaten it with a rock. These weren't just age lines, they were crevices you could loose change in. I've seen weather damaged skin before, but this was ridiculous. I've thrown out better looking shoes.

Psst. That's lose, not loose.

RJLeahy · Mar 6, 2007

thanks judg. At work, typing from memory here.

Judg · Mar 6, 2007

Ah. Thought it was from the manuscript and thought you would want to know.

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 6, 2007

just_a_girl said:
Obviously I'm reading this passage out of context, but I'm wondering if Native Americans would refer to their religious beliefs as "superstitions" or call their spiritual leaders "witch doctors?"

Well, the MC, who is a white American male like me, said superstitions. So that is partly why the NA character replied with the sarcastic "witch doctor."

benbradley · Mar 6, 2007

It's clear this lawyer is looking down at this medicine man/"witch doctor" stuff, but what about this Alex Tromonte, the first-person speaker? He says:
"I'm interested in tribal superstitions."
and the word superstition has negative connotations. This tells me he himself is either ignorant or biased against Native American medicine and religious/spiritual beliefs (it appears these things are closely tied together). It may be better for him to say "I'm interested in tribal medicine" or "I'm interested in tribal religious beliefs" (showing that he already has at least a speck of knowledge about the subject, and respect for others' beliefs) and then let the other speaker bring up superstitions or similar words.

If ALL such characters are biased, the idea may come accross that the AUTHOR is biased.

If you're concerned that someone may be offended that you have a character who stereotypes a group of people, I say don't worry, people do this in real life all the time, and you're just depicting it in your story. But of course as everyone says, it should be an integral part of the story and push it forward, bla bla bla.

Sweetlebee · Mar 6, 2007

I'm not quite so sure about the hawk-like nose. I picture some of those sports mascots that are highly offensive to Native Americans. I'd personally get a Native American's opinion.

Toothpaste · Mar 6, 2007

well the only thing I really thought might, might, be a problem is in fact the red aura. As of course native americans were often reffered to as red skins. Can you make it a different colour?

(I also agree a bit about the hawk like nose, could you say roman nose? That would confuse people nicely!)

Sweetlebee · Mar 6, 2007

I noticed the red reference too but thought the mention of a red aura was a theme. If it's only used in this one instance for this particular character, I'd avoid it too.

Judg · Mar 6, 2007

Toothpaste said:
(I also agree a bit about the hawk like nose, could you say roman nose? That would confuse people nicely!)

Ah, but Roman noses are something different.

Judg, who is married to an Italian with a Roman nose.

ChaosTitan · Mar 6, 2007

Saying the nose was "hawk-like" drew a very clear picture of the man's nose. I didn't think it was a stereotype, just a description.

Then again, I'm not Native American. *passes a grain of salt*

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 6, 2007

Toothpaste said:
well the only thing I really thought might, might, be a problem is in fact the red aura. As of course native americans were often reffered to as red skins. Can you make it a different colour?

(I also agree a bit about the hawk like nose, could you say roman nose? That would confuse people nicely!)

I could change the color, it didn't occur to me that red and "red skin" might be connected. I didn't pick that color at random, but chose red because it's a sign of high energy by those who believe in such things.

Red
A vibrant red is usually seen around children before the age of puberty. It reflects their boundless energy and enthusiasm for life. People who are very active or sporty often have a vibrant red aura. Darker reds are a sign of anger and can show in someone who is bad tempered or violent.

For instance, my MC has already met a farmer who has a green aura. Green thumb? Get it? Huh? Because green, accordingly shows a love of the outdoors or a closeness to nature.

swvaughn · Mar 6, 2007

I'm part Native American, does that count?

I agree with PeeDee on the witch doctor bit. I saw it as sarcasm, too. And "hawk-nosed" is a general term to describe a particularly shaped nose, which is a common trait among Native Americans. So I don't think it's stereotypical.

I used to work at a McDonalds about a half-mile from an Iroquois reservation. You wouldn't believe how politically INcorrect the tribe there is. They refer to themselves as "Indians" or even "Injuns", and they aren't insulted when other folks refer to them in kind. The only thing that pisses them off is our governor's continual attempts to tax their cigarette stores. This causes them to shut down the portion of Route 81 (the major highway here) that is situated on their land. Personally, I'm with them.

(Shadow, I am completely intrigued by your story, even with just this brief excerpt to go by. It sounds like a great read!)

Toothpaste · Mar 6, 2007

I did know that roman nose was something else, that's why I suggested it.

But really I don't think anything mentioned (aside from the medicine man) is all that offensive. I was just pointing out things that may be.

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 6, 2007

I can't use Roman nose because it reminds me of that joke from my 1001 Insults for Every Occasion.

"You have a Roman nose. Yeah. It's roamin' all over your face!"

MidnightMuse · Mar 6, 2007

I hear "Roman nose" and I think of horses.

lfraser · Mar 6, 2007

I see nothing racist in your scene. But even if there were, the racism would be within the story or in the characters, not in you, the writer.

Is this racist? Stereotyping?

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